How do they come up with this number?
Finish percentage. E.G. If you finish 3rd out of 4 entries, your performance index is .250; like a batting average.
Man I sure have been away a couple years so my memory may evade me a bit,I think you just meant .750? :boink:
huh?
maybe the lower 75th percentile.. but your PI would be .250 if you finished 3rd in a race of 4.
AH- I wasn't sure,thanks ,Melk Man :cheers: Should,nt have been so sure of this ( :boink:)
Quote from: mikendzel on December 28, 2008, 10:40:44 PM
Finish percentage. E.G. If you finish 3rd out of 4 entries, your performance index is .250; like a batting average.
Not exactly...the wrinkle is that the last place rider does get some PI!
Given that the last place rider finishes with a PI for that race >0, therefore:
T = riders on grid
P = Finish position
A = Riders ahead of your finish position
Therefore:
A = P-1
Therefore:
PI = ( ( (T-(P-1))/T) * 1000
OR
PI = ( (T-A)/T) * 1000
In the example where there are 10 riders on the grid and I finish 5th, my PI would be:
PI = ( ( (10-(5-1))/10) * 1000 = 600
Or, 10 riders, 1st place finish:
PI = ( ( (10-(1-1))/10) * 1000 = 1000
Or, 10 riders, 10th place finish:
PI = ( ( (10-(10-1)/10) * 1000 = 100
Or, in your example:
4 riders, 3rd place finish:
PI = ( ( (4-(3-1)/10) * 1000 = 500
Also, CATMAN, if you're looking to get caught up on the happenings during your absence, maybe try the Search feature, as much of this stuff has been discussed in prior threads.
kl3640 was correct!!!
Here's what the rulebook stated when the formula was in it:
"Section 8. Specifically 8.2.
There are double points weekends which count for twice the points.
Performance index =
(# of riders - number of riders who finished ahead of you) / number of riders * 1000
For intance, if you came in 3rd in a race of 10 riders,
10 - 2 = 8
8/10 = .8
.8x1000 = 800
Your overall performace index is an overall average of your class averages. "
* His forumla in the last example was incorrect for those of you that were confused by that. He meant PI = (((4 - (3-1))/4) * 1000 = 500
Quote from: CATMAN on December 29, 2008, 12:24:22 AM
AH- I wasn't sure,thanks ,Melk Man :cheers: Should,nt have been so sure of this ( :boink:)
no prob!..lol.. you should see the riders at the end of the season scrambling around with scratch pads and calculators trying to determine who they have to beat and by how many places to keep a point lead for a championship..then they pull the hair out by the roots after forgetting to factor in a performance index, but then forgetting the performance index of that round factors in as well. Yea, that was me.
Quote from: mikendzel on December 29, 2008, 12:41:41 PM
kl3640 was correct!!!
Here's what the rulebook stated when the formula was in it:
"Section 8. Specifically 8.2.
There are double points weekends which count for twice the points.
Performance index =
(# of riders - number of riders who finished ahead of you) / number of riders * 1000
For intance, if you came in 3rd in a race of 10 riders,
10 - 2 = 8
8/10 = .8
.8x1000 = 800
Your overall performace index is an overall average of your class averages. "
* His forumla in the last example was incorrect for those of you that were confused by that. He meant PI = (((4 - (3-1))/4) * 1000 = 500
Oops...the hazards of Ctl-C + Ctl-P :)
One thing that should be pointed out is that I've
been told (Melk-Man, feel free to chime in here) that Overall PI (as per section 8.2 of the rules:
Your overall performace index is an overall average of your class averages.) is actually a
straight arithmetic mean of the PI's of each of your classes, without respect to the # of events run in each class.Therefore, if you were to run 4 classes all season, then run a 5th class in the final round of the season, the PI for that 5th class would get averaged in to your overall PI the same as those other 4 classes. Doing so could of course help you or bite you, depending on how you do in that 5th race.
Exactly Vas,
you could run 1 class all SEASON and win every race.. PI of 1000. Then you decide "hey, ill run race-X" and you finish dead friggin last after crashing on the start.
1 race.. PI "0".. that one race for that one class is figured in with as much weight to your OVERALL performance index as the class you won all 10 races in.. 1000 + 0 / 2 = 500. YOur overall pi is 500 even though you won 10 races in 1 class and finished dead last in only 1 race.
Thanks for all your help.Now I understand.It was confussing when I read about it in the rule book.
Vas Quote-
Also, CATMAN, if you're looking to get caught up on the happenings during your absence, maybe try the Search feature, as much of this stuff has been discussed in prior threads
I have been just basically reading much lately,going backwards through the previous pages of threads. I just answered originally too quickly and this topic wasn't high on my list quite yet of things to ponder,since its hard to collect any points without being on a grid for a couple seasons- I am glad ,to have it clearly explained,and it is a great topic most would agree ,for sure. Thanks much- congrats on your vas? (and Greg's) efforts,I am still reading through the important stuff,right? Cat
Quote from: CATMAN on December 29, 2008, 10:56:46 PM
Vas Quote-
Also, CATMAN, if you're looking to get caught up on the happenings during your absence, maybe try the Search feature, as much of this stuff has been discussed in prior threads
I have been just basically reading much lately,going backwards through the previous pages of threads. I just answered originally too quickly and this topic wasn't high on my list quite yet of things to ponder,since its hard to collect any points without being on a grid for a couple seasons- I am glad ,to have it clearly explained,and it is a great topic most would agree ,for sure. Thanks much- congrats on your vas? (and Greg's) efforts,I am still reading through the important stuff,right? Cat
Cat, Wasn't trying to be a wise-ass, just trying to hopefully save you some time (specifically, we discussed this thread before in the past few months).
Greg, thanks for clarifying above. I had only
heard that before about each class's PI being averaged with the same weight, regardless of the # of races run in that class over the course of a season, so I didn't want to state it as fact without having someone else verify.
Oh, FWIW, a single race PI=0 is impossible so long as you are scored in the results, though PI could converge on 0 as grid size increases. The lowest single race PI that I've ever seen is PI = ( (43-42)/43) * 1000 = 23.25...it was an AM MW race at Daytona with 43 bikes on the grid!
When the whole P/I calculation (added on to overall points) was being considered I warned that what would result would be a Middleweight Championship - not a Championship that would allow a rider with any other single bike to win (it would require at least 2 different class bikes).
Why? Because of what has already been mentioned - number of riders per race class and the number of classes a single bike can run in competatively. For example a good rider on a Middleweight bike can run all their classes plus all the Heavyweight and Unlimited classes competatively at most tracks (with top speed tracks being the rare exception, but they can still place well). Compare the number of classes available to race on 1 Middleweight bike to the Lightweight and Unlimited class bikes and it's obvious that your going to be at a serious disadvantage in pursueing a #1 plate if your not racing a Middleweight bike or at least 2 different class bikes.
The other factor is number of riders per race class, if your looking for a Top 10 plate you better be a consistent podium finisher in every race you run or be running the biggest entry classes to minimize your losses with the P/I. The unfortunate fault and reality of the current system is that it doesn't factor in competition, it factors in sheer numbers of riders. I've seen great battles amongst the top 5 riders in lower entry classes (less than 10 riders total) and the Top 5 basically playing follow the leader in some of the large entry classes (60 riders total) - yet the 5th place person who fought the whole race in the lower entry class will be punished with a crappy P/I (because of the way the P/I is calculated) and lose all kinds of points as compared to the person in the large entry class who also finished 5th but didn't have to fight the whole race like the other rider did.
So if your looking to get a Top 10 plate make sure and run as many classes as you can, but be selective if possible and only run the classes you can finish well in and make sure their the biggest entry classes as well (to minimize the P/I penalty from any bad finishes). You also want to make sure that if you finish poorly in a random class that you only ran at 1 event that you run that class at least a few more times (and place well) to lessen the P/I effects of that one bad result! :thumb:
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 30, 2008, 12:51:39 AM
When the whole P/I calculation (added on to overall points) was being considered I warned that what would result would be a Middleweight Championship - not a Championship that would allow a rider with any other single bike to win (it would require at least 2 different class bikes).
Why? Because of what has already been mentioned - number of riders per race class and the number of classes a single bike can run in competatively. For example a good rider on a Middleweight bike can run all their classes plus all the Heavyweight and Unlimited classes competatively at most tracks (with top speed tracks being the rare exception, but they can still place well). Compare the number of classes available to race on 1 Middleweight bike to the Lightweight and Unlimited class bikes and it's obvious that your going to be at a serious disadvantage in pursueing a #1 plate if your not racing a Middleweight bike or at least 2 different class bikes.
The other factor is number of riders per race class, if your looking for a Top 10 plate you better be a consistent podium finisher in every race you run or be running the biggest entry classes to minimize your losses with the P/I. The unfortunate fault and reality of the current system is that it doesn't factor in competition, it factors in sheer numbers of riders. I've seen great battles amongst the top 5 riders in lower entry classes (less than 10 riders total) and the Top 5 basically playing follow the leader in some of the large entry classes (60 riders total) - yet the 5th place person who fought the whole race in the lower entry class will be punished with a crappy P/I (because of the way the P/I is calculated) and lose all kinds of points as compared to the person in the large entry class who also finished 5th but didn't have to fight the whole race like the other rider did.
So if your looking to get a Top 10 plate make sure and run as many classes as you can, but be selective if possible and only run the classes you can finish well in and make sure their the biggest entry classes as well (to minimize the P/I penalty from any bad finishes). :thumb:
Bingo. I couldn't agree more, but the debate on how to fix it is just as fierce. There are advantages and disadvantages to the various proposed solutions, which include suggestions such as limiting a class's contribution to championship points to only points earned on equipment that was designed for that class, only counting the top X races on a given weekend, etc.
What should be changed, no matter what, is the weighting of classes in the calculation of Overall PI. Overall PI should be a
weighted average of individual Class PI's based on the # of events run in each class, because otherwise the ability of a rider to influence his Overall Adjusted Points by entering one or two classes near the end of a season is unfair.
I'll be racing a R6 in some of the MW classes and a R1 in some of the unlimited classes.So it seems like both classes will determine my PI.Is this correct?
... or... limit the number of classes that could count toward a championship. However that is not in the best interest of CCS financially. THere is no perfect method, and the PI is better than just adding up total points.
So say for example I ran all the mid atlantic unl.ss,unl.sb on the R1 and mwss,mwgp on the R6 the points from the unlimited races would not effect or becombined with the points from the MW races but both will effect my PI.Is this a correct statement? Thanks for any help as I am new to all this.I did run the two VIR race weekends this year but wasn't really worried about points or PI since I just did the two.I hope to do most of the MA races in 09 so just trying to learn scoring,points,and PI.
Quote from: Rick Johnson 29 on December 31, 2008, 08:51:38 PM
So say for example I ran all the mid atlantic unl.ss,unl.sb on the R1 and mwss,mwgp on the R6 the points from the unlimited races would not effect or becombined with the points from the MW races but both will effect my PI.Is this a correct statement? Thanks for any help as I am new to all this.I did run the two VIR race weekends this year but wasn't really worried about points or PI since I just did the two.I hope to do most of the MA races in 09 so just trying to learn scoring,points,and PI.
You have a PI per class, and an Overall PI. From what I understand (from guys who have come down to the wire as for whether they get a #1 or #2 plate), the Overall PI is an average of your individual class PI's, but it's
not a weighted average, it's just a strict arithmetic mean, i.e., regardless of how many events you ran in each class over the course of a season, each class contributes the same to the calculation of your Overall PI. Ergo, you could add a single class to a single weekend of a region's season, and have a 1/X effect on your PI (where X is the # of classes that you ran all season long).
The current system works. If you finish 5th in a 30 bike field, it should be worth more than 5th in a 7 bike field.
With a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s. No offense to the guys who race the other classes, but there is a big difference between a win in MW supersport and a win in Supertwins.
Quote from: JBraun on January 07, 2009, 12:05:51 PM
The current system works. If you finish 5th in a 30 bike field, it should be worth more than 5th in a 7 bike field.
With a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s. No offense to the guys who race the other classes, but there is a big difference between a win in MW supersport and a win in Supertwins.
But that is not the case. The Overall PI is an average of Class PI's, not an average of all results across all races. Therefore, if you race two classes, and your PI in one is a .250, and a .750 in the other, then your Overall PI is a .500. That is also true if you race 12 races in the first class and only 1 race in the second class; they get averaged regardless of the level of participation in one class or another over the course of a season.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on December 29, 2008, 08:41:28 PM
Exactly Vas,
you could run 1 class all SEASON and win every race.. PI of 1000. Then you decide "hey, ill run race-X" and you finish dead friggin last after crashing on the start.
1 race.. PI "0".. that one race for that one class is figured in with as much weight to your OVERALL performance index as the class you won all 10 races in.. 1000 + 0 / 2 = 500. YOur overall pi is 500 even though you won 10 races in 1 class and finished dead last in only 1 race.
ask me how I know how much that hurts....well besides the pi of 1000
It was 895
and in one ill fated last weekend of the year 500something....doh
How about running as an amateur in ULWSB, and being scored against the experts? Then seeing what it does to your PI in the other classes.
There will always be problems but then this is really about having fun right?
Quote from: JBraun on January 07, 2009, 12:05:51 PMWith a few exceptions, the fastest riders are on 600s.
Just for clarity (for any new or so to be racers) - that has alot more to do with the 4-1/4 to 5 Lbs per Hp ratio those fastest riders have on those bikes than anything else. It takes alot of talent and/or experience to get within 5% of the track record, it takes even more talent (at that pace) to do it when you have excessive power (like 3 to 4 Lbs per Hp) because it's progressively more difficult to maintain traction in the turns and apply that extra power to the ground coming out of the turns. This is the major factor why riders who may be blazingly fast on a 600 may have trouble achieving the same pace on a bike with less weight per Hp (because now you have to regulate the power much more carefully).
The traction threshold (where the tire can start to spin from extra power) is right around 5 to 5-1/2 Lbs per Hp, give or take based on the multitude of factors that can effect traction, but it's still in the ball park. If you go back to the late 90's the avg 600 racers power to weight ratio was about 3/4 to 1 pound per Hp heavier than today's bikes and respectively were not the fastest bikes on the track. Back then the 750's were the ones really haulin because they had less power and were heavier than today's 750's and were in the easier to ride power to weight ratio range that 600's are in today.
The reality isn't that 600's today are so awesome on the track, it's about the current power to weight ratio's of the 600's being easier to ride than the bigger displacement bike's with less weight per Hp. :thumb:
Quote from: HAWK on January 07, 2009, 09:22:45 PM
How about running as an amateur in ULWSB, and being scored against the experts? Then seeing what it does to your PI in the other classes.
There will always be problems but then this is really about having fun right?
Just looked at the March Daytona schedule. Sunday race #8 ULSB EX/AM..... so they are now scored separate right? OOPS should be "ULWSB"
ULSB would be UnLimited SuperBikeI believe and they were always scored separately, It was Ultralightweight that was scored together last year. With the SV moving to Ultralight I can't see any possible reason to score AM and EX together next year.
Thanks kl3640. That's how I thought it worked. I will say there is lots of fast racers in the mw class.I'm still learning the bike but actually went .85 of a second faster around VIR in Sept. than I did on the 1000. So it has helped with my cornerspeed and I will try to transition that over to the 1000. Both class are fun to race and both bikes present their own challenges. I think learning to go fast on both will make me a better rider. IMO Thanks for the help guys.
Riding 2 different bikes is not easy. Especially on a typical ccs weekend if you do a bunch of classes. Going back and forth, back and forth on 600 to 1000 is TOUGH. Especially in a 6 lap sprint where you can not afford to take a lap or so to "get up to speed". Do that in the expert class and everyone is gone.
SOME riders are truely gifted and can run up near the front on any bike at any time, even back to back. It is not the same as even riding a 600 1 day and a 1000 on the other.. That is easier than going back and forth on both bikes all day. Then you have set up on 2 bikes as well.. Gearing, tire choice, suspension at the same track for 2 different bikes..
The extra HP as many have found is not an instant "pill" to go faster.. even good riders go slower initially then perhaps eventually go faster consistantly on the 1k. For me? im done with 1000's for awhile and am enjoying the 600's..
My issue with the PI is that it kills you for mechanicals/crashes. Run into a bit of bad luck early and you can land in a hole you can't get out of.
then don't crash, stupid. :kissy:
Melk-Man yeah it is somewhat difficult switching from one to the other.My first sportbike ever is my R1 which I have gotten to know pretty well.Took it to the track for the first time in March 07.Found out I could only do 4 races a weekend on it so last April I picked up the R6 to race some.Had a back to back race at VIR in Sept. Went out for a MW race think I got 11th rushed right in jumped on the R1 just making it out for the warm up lap and ran the GTO getting 8th.I won't say it was easy but think I handled it ok.It probally would have been alittle tougher in the summer.I workout regularlly which helps also.It would be easier and cheaper to just race one but I really enjoy racing both.I guess if it becomes to difficult or I can't afford it I'll just race one or the other.I did 8 races at VIR in Sept. and 7 in June there.See guys at CMP.
Rick Johnson 29: Not sure if you know who Melk-Man is or not, but I think it would be safe to say that the pace your running and the pace he's running are quite different. There is somewhat of a 'bell-curve' of traction when it comes to racing bikes with excessive power, you don't really appreciate that till your one of the ones running some of the fastest lap times at race events. Going back and forth between racing a 600 and a 1000 at an event isn't near as difficult when your running slower than 110% of the fastest racers lap times, doing it at 105% and faster is a whole different story.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 09, 2009, 05:30:04 PM
Rick Johnson 29: Not sure if you know who Melk-Man is or not, but I think it would be safe to say that the pace your running and the pace he's running are quite different. There is somewhat of a 'bell-curve' of traction when it comes to racing bikes with excessive power, you don't really appreciate that till your one of the ones running some of the fastest lap times at race events. Going back and forth between racing a 600 and a 1000 at an event isn't near as difficult when your running slower than 110% of the fastest racers lap times, doing it at 105% and faster is a whole different story.
Not that im "all that" but I was going to point out that as Mike said it is harder than one thinks when running at that magic 5 seconds of lap record pace. The top national riders going at close to lap records (Wood,Jensen, Knapp,Starnes,etc) have extraordinary ability to do this, and riding often helps. I rode a 1000 for a season and could only ride it withn 3 seconds of lap record pace at 1 track..Homestead. I was only 1/2 a second faster than my 600 at my "home" track JenningsGP after 6 months on the thing. Robeling i always was better on the 1000, but only cause i could ride the 1000 like the 600 there (sweeping corners). Some tracks i only went as fast, and was visibly not as comfortable on the bike as my 600.
When it worked well the 1000 was a blast, spin up the rear, wheelies in check, no headshake, etc. But when something with the setup was not quite right it was a friggin handfull and i longed to get back on my little r6 for some fun.
Have fun with it and learn to exploit the strengths of both bikes, but what mike was stating is the truth. All of us mortals can "ride" any bike and have fun. Pushing to stay within respectable lap times of the top riders is VERY hard on a 1000 (or any bike), and jumping from 600 to 1000 a few times in a day and riding within 5% of lap record pace takes "superhuman" ability .. lol.. which I lack, but wish i posessed.
I'm sure I'll probally be better off just racing the 600.Even though I've placed alittle better on the 1000 but still just learning the 600.I'll start out the season on both but will probally end up mostly racing the 600.It is easier to ride and race and I'm glad I got it.Just kinda hard to let go of my first bike.I don't know Melk-Man or many CCS racers since I'm really new to it.Just looking for some good advice.Sounds like Melk-Man is really fast to be running lap records or right with them.I still have alot to learn about track riding and racing.I'm always willing to learn from more experienced riders.I know I'm not fast but set goals for myself.In Sept. my fastest lap at VIR was a 1.39:072.I was happy to see that time since I was running a 40 to 42 in June.So I've set a realistic goal of dropping 2 seconds there this year or a high 36 for me would be sweet.I'm no where near superhuman lol
Quote from: Rick Johnson 29 on January 09, 2009, 09:54:12 PM
I'm sure I'll probally be better off just racing the 600.Even though I've placed alittle better on the 1000 but still just learning the 600.I'll start out the season on both but will probally end up mostly racing the 600.It is easier to ride and race and I'm glad I got it.Just kinda hard to let go of my first bike.I don't know Melk-Man or many CCS racers since I'm really new to it.Just looking for some good advice.Sounds like Melk-Man is really fast to be running lap records or right with them.I still have alot to learn about track riding and racing.I'm always willing to learn from more experienced riders.I know I'm not fast but set goals for myself.In Sept. my fastest lap at VIR was a 1.39:072.I was happy to see that time since I was running a 40 to 42 in June.So I've set a realistic goal of dropping 2 seconds there this year or a high 36 for me would be sweet.I'm no where near superhuman lol
LOL... im no threat to lap records, just a good club racer that wades out into the waters of the ASRA class from time to time.
YOur times will improve as the skill improves. Stick with the 1k if you like it! I may have made a mistake staying on a 600 for too long (4 yrs or so) before i got on the big bike.
Will see ya at CMP, VIR and the SE tracks to come by and say Hi.
I'll look you up at CMP Greg.Any advice for gearing on the 600.I was running 15/48 at my last TD there and that seemed ok but maybe something else would be better.