http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=12305941&type=CU&show_alert=1
Basically they are trying to make illegal the use of aftermarket exhausts in NY. If they have a problem with noise, let them legislate noise; if with emissions, let them legislate emissions; but to simply ban the product outright is ridiculous. I encourage everyone who's reading this to take action.
:wtf: Thats America for you. Make a bunch of laws as fast as you can so you can say that while in office look what you accomplished. I know for a fact that a loud pipe has saved my life and and my wifes numerous times. I feel my life is way more important than somebodys fucking comfort for the split second im by them. There are two options that I see, first show these fuckers that loud pipes save lives by actual tests. Second, tell these fuckers that as soon as people stop running over bikers then we will quiet them down. People will always run over bikers, I will always have the loudest most obnoxious pipe on my bike no matter what the laws are. Thats why we cant race at the autobahn, noise. Pretty stupid, huh. Its a friggin racetrack.
:preachon:
How are you so sure the pipes were the difference? Did you interview the other driver(s) after the incident? Anecdotal evidence is not usable as proof.
I have been street riding for 29 years and over 300,000 miles. I commute between 180 and 200 days per year. I rarely have any problems with cars. I used to, but as my street skills increased, my close calls with cars have gone to nearly zero. I don't recall having to use my horn once this past year. If you are relying on a loud pipe to save you. perhaps you need to re-evaluate your street riding. Racing skills are nearly useless on the street. Reminds me of an old saying in flying - applies equally well to this situation - A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring his superior flying skills.
All loud pipes do is piss people off and cause politicians to ban pipes.
Changing any part of the emission system on a street vehicle that adversely affects emissions (tailpipe or sound) is already illegal. I am not sure how difficult it is to enforce these requirements. The fines are stiff, on the order of $10,000 PER CHANGE. Also the selling dealer can be fined, especially if they installed the part(s).
Perhaps you would like the EPA to begin to enforce the Clean Air Act (1979)?
Quote from: tzracer on December 13, 2008, 02:16:14 PM
How are you so sure the pipes were the difference? Did you interview the other driver(s) after the incident? Anecdotal evidence is not usable as proof.
I don't know where you live. But where I live the traffic always ranks in the top three for worst in the country and everyone drives with their heads up their ass.
I ride to work everyday regardless of weather including snow, unless I'm racing that weekend and leaving directly from work. That only happened once this year. Over 250k miles in less than 15 years.
I have an air horn on my VFR and even that isn't always enough to snap these dumbasses out of their zombie-like state. Bouncing it off the limiter with some backfires always seems to work though. Yesterday I had to do it on my DR650 while some dumbass from New York thought it was a good idea to change lanes while I'm passing them. Oh, and I'm far from sitting in blindspots like you might be surmising. I always know what these fools are about to do anyways so it's not all that threatening. People ignore horns even loud ones. They need some sort of abnormal stimulus to get their attention.
The loud VFR also scares away deer, I can see them running off well before I reach them. Either that or they freeze in place. What's kind of funny is that after getting the air horn I figured I'd run a quieter muffler for a while. So the very next day on the way to work with a quiet muffler I nailed a deer. Two of the bastards jumped out right in front of me. The loud muffler went back on during the rebuild.
Quote from: SVbadguy on December 13, 2008, 03:29:13 PM
I don't know where you live. But where I live the traffic always ranks in the top three for worst in the country and everyone drives with their heads up their ass.
I ride to work everyday regardless of weather including snow, unless I'm racing that weekend and leaving directly from work. That only happened once this year. Over 250k miles in less than 15 years.
I have an air horn on my VFR and even that isn't always enough to snap these dumbasses out of their zombie-like state. Bouncing it off the limiter with some backfires always seems to work though. Yesterday I had to do it on my DR650 while some dumbass from New York thought it was a good idea to change lanes while I'm passing them. Oh, and I'm far from sitting in blindspots like you might be surmising. I always know what these fools are about to do anyways so it's not all that threatening. People ignore horns even loud ones. They need some sort of abnormal stimulus to get their attention.
The loud VFR also scares away deer, I can see them running off well before I reach them. Either that or they freeze in place. What's kind of funny is that after getting the air horn I figured I'd run a quieter muffler for a while. So the very next day on the way to work with a quiet muffler I nailed a deer. Two of the bastards jumped out right in front of me. The loud muffler went back on during the rebuild.
Sounds like some very real-world anecdotal experience to me.
The louder, the better, unless it's a cruiser.
Uh Oh. I'm agreeing with the professor on this. There have been lots of studies showing that the "loud pipes save lives" bumper stickers are BS. Call out the mythbusters!
I'm in the camp of no loud mufflers...
You don't get EPA stamped exhausts for your car when you go to Midas. No reason to require it from another vehicle that is registered for road use.
I agree Dave... however certain motorcyclists like to run pipes with no mufflers at all and that AFAIK is illegal in almost all states. Not to mention annoying as hell. If I were a cop, I'd be writing tickets to everyone of those guys.
Guys, this is a good debate, but I point it out only because I don't think that the government should be in the business of banning whole-sale such aftermarket parts as exhuasts. For example, in the town where I live, there is a nice downtown area with lots of shops, restaurants, etc. Most of the restaurants have outside dining areas. On the weekends especially, people cruise down there in their exotic cars, and there are lots of guys on custom choppers, Harleys, and sportbikes. In order to manage the noise, the town issued a noise ordinance for that area for certain times and decibel limits.
So my point is that, whether we agree with loud pipes or not, the government shouldn't be legislating pipes all together. If they want to legislate noise, let them do so. If they want to legislate emissions, let them do so. Each one of those fights will be difficult and at least there will be much debate on the issues. But they are trying to kill every bird with one stone and that's not right. That's why I posted this here, so that we all could act on it and force the debate to be on the issue that governments and other citizens have specifically, not generally. If the noise bothers them, then have them issue noise ordinances in the areas where noise is a problem. If the emissions are a problem, then let the EPA regulate it. But by no means should they eliminate aftermarket pipes all together. There are reasons besides noise and emissions to replace an exhaust (e.g., weight, for one).
I agree with you 100% Vas... no way should they be passing such a sweeping bill. If this were for cars, SEMA would be all over it.
Being able to think for yourself is starting to become a thing of the past. To let an individual decide whether it's right or wrong to tear ass down a side street with a loud pipe is freedom. Freedom to decide for ourselves if we want a loud pipe, a bike that does over 180, to get high, to get drunk, to want to ride mandem, to marry your best friend who happens to be the same sex as you. I could go all day, but the point is simple, I want the freedom to decide.
Quote from: tzracer on December 13, 2008, 02:16:14 PM
:preachon:
How are you so sure the pipes were the difference? Did you interview the other driver(s) after the incident? Anecdotal evidence is not usable as proof.
I have been street riding for 29 years and over 300,000 miles. I commute between 180 and 200 days per year. I rarely have any problems with cars. I used to, but as my street skills increased, my close calls with cars have gone to nearly zero. I don't recall having to use my horn once this past year. If you are relying on a loud pipe to save you. perhaps you need to re-evaluate your street riding. Racing skills are nearly useless on the street. Reminds me of an old saying in flying - applies equally well to this situation - A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring his superior flying skills.
All loud pipes do is piss people off and cause politicians to ban pipes.
Changing any part of the emission system on a street vehicle that adversely affects emissions (tailpipe or sound) is already illegal. I am not sure how difficult it is to enforce these requirements. The fines are stiff, on the order of $10,000 PER CHANGE. Also the selling dealer can be fined, especially if they installed the part(s).
Perhaps you would like the EPA to begin to enforce the Clean Air Act (1979)?
Dude, WTF, am I in a fuckin court room stating anecdotal evidence as fact? NO, I am on a racing forum, chillax.
Problem is your freedom impinges on my right to enjoy driving while being able to hear my stereo (with my windows up if it's a Harley)!
I could care less what you do as long as it doesn't make life miserable for anyone else.
You could go on and on... want the freedom to kill anyone anytime you like too?
Quote from: r1owner on December 13, 2008, 11:38:37 PM
Problem is your freedom impinges on my right to enjoy driving while being able to hear my stereo (with my windows up if it's a Harley)!
I could care less what you do as long as it doesn't make life miserable for anyone else.
You could go on and on... want the freedom to kill anyone anytime you like too?
Being able to hear ABBA's greatest hits on your stereo or not, you noticed that a bike was close. End of story.
Quote from: GIGOLO on December 14, 2008, 12:12:41 AM
Being able to hear ABBA's greatest hits on your stereo or not, you noticed that a bike was close. End of story.
I notice bikes are around cause I pay attention when I drive. Loud pipes don't do crap to save your life.
I like to enjoy sitting in my house without hearing obnoxious inconsiderate assholes on Harleys from a mile away.
Anyway, interesting debate guys, but please follow the link in the first post in this thread and contact the NYC Council and express your distaste with this proposed legislation (unless you actually agree with it).
I agree that legislating NO aftermarket pipes period is wrong, however it is far too easy to understand big brothers position. There are noise laws, have been for many years, that aren't working (it is illegal to install any component that increases the noise of a car or motorcycle above noise emission standards) so they are trying a new direction to see if they can fix the problem. I too am with the professor on this one.
I for one have a major problem with some moron who thinks it is cool to see if he can try to set a new noise record while I'm trying to sleep, doesn't matter if he's on a Harley or in a car.
Oh yeah, I too have over a 1/4 million miles commuting on stock piped BMW motorcycles and the closest calls I've ever had were from traffic turning left in FRONT of me, where they can't hear your pipes yet. How's your traffic compare to Chicago traffic?
Quote from: HAWK on December 14, 2008, 01:44:52 PM
I agree that legislating NO aftermarket pipes period is wrong, however it is far too easy to understand big brothers position. There are noise laws, have been for many years, that aren't working (it is illegal to install any component that increases the noise of a car or motorcycle above noise emission standards) so they are trying a new direction to see if they can fix the problem. I too am with the professor on this one.
I for one have a major problem with some moron who thinks it is cool to see if he can try to set a new noise record while I'm trying to sleep, doesn't matter if he's on a Harley or in a car.
Oh yeah, I too have over a 1/4 million miles commuting on stock piped BMW motorcycles and the closest calls I've ever had were from traffic turning left in FRONT of me, where they can't hear your pipes yet. How's your traffic compare to Chicago traffic?
I too have done a lot of street riding on BMW's, and my current one came with one of the new style exhausts (the "Cannon"), and by replacing it I saved 25lbs of partially sprung weight while maintaining the same noise level. I can't honestly say what that did to emissions, but if the issue is with emissions, then let the EPA regulate it, or let states do what they will (like CA); but banning aftermarket pipes altogether is not the answer.
Again, where I live the town issued a noise ordinance, and the police enforce it, plain and simple. And it works.
My big,ugly,obnoxiously loud metric cruiser has a horn on it that sounds like a freight train and here in D.C. the meat puppets do not hear it over their whiney,self-centered inner voices. They do hear my Vance & Hines 2 into 1 when I rattle the moldings off their doors with a couple blips on the throttle. I have a close call nearly every time I ride on interstate 95 including today while on my way home from church. I will run loud pipes until I move to an area where the car drivers are paying attention. Where is that????
Meat puppets, thats funny.
:lmao:
I bought a ninja 250 '08, for my wife. I rode the piss outta that bike almost everyday this past summer in stock trim. I would say about three times a week I would predict when the driver was going to change lanes in front of me, and watch them do it. About September I hacked her pipe into a third of what it used to be, it sounds like a pissed off U.P.S. truck now. Not once since then have I been passing somebody on the left and they didnt know I was there. Drawback to a loud pipe on a relatively slow bike is,before I hacked the exhaust I would rip down any given street nobody ever yelled at me to slow down. Now with a loud pipe, even if I am doing the speed limit I get yelled at and/or a dirty ass look is shot at me.
As far as waking people up in the middle of the night, I have never done that, furthermore I hate it. Though, the guys that usually do that kind of stuff supply the racing community with bikes at auctions so :cheers:
I've ridden the street since 1971, many bikes both quiet and loud.
There are blind spots in cars where a motorcycle can't be seen by the average driving citizen, if the exhaust is loud enough for granny or grandpa to hear it, he or she usually won't come into your lane if she knows something is there.
The boom boom cars can't hear you or emergency sirens while the volume is up, I'd rather hear a Harley at a red light than a shiny high wheeled thugsta's trunk ratting.
Always vote for more freedom, not more restrictions.
Quote from: SVbadguy on December 13, 2008, 03:29:13 PM
I don't know where you live. But where I live the traffic always ranks in the top three for worst in the country and everyone drives with their heads up their ass.
I ride to work everyday regardless of weather including snow, unless I'm racing that weekend and leaving directly from work. That only happened once this year. Over 250k miles in less than 15 years.
I have an air horn on my VFR and even that isn't always enough to snap these dumbasses out of their zombie-like state. Bouncing it off the limiter with some backfires always seems to work though. Yesterday I had to do it on my DR650 while some dumbass from New York thought it was a good idea to change lanes while I'm passing them. Oh, and I'm far from sitting in blindspots like you might be surmising. I always know what these fools are about to do anyways so it's not all that threatening. People ignore horns even loud ones. They need some sort of abnormal stimulus to get their attention.
The loud VFR also scares away deer, I can see them running off well before I reach them. Either that or they freeze in place. What's kind of funny is that after getting the air horn I figured I'd run a quieter muffler for a while. So the very next day on the way to work with a quiet muffler I nailed a deer. Two of the bastards jumped out right in front of me. The loud muffler went back on during the rebuild.
Far more complicated than just staying out of blind spots. My goal is to know what all drivers are going to do before they do it and act accordingly. Will I ever be able to do this all the time? No, but it does not stop me from trying.
High density freeway driving is not the most deadly riding. Most deaths (more than half) occur on undivided highways. Ever see a country kid turn off his lights to run a stop sign at night? I have, several times, once close enough to see the rear seat passenger screaming.
Don't know what you mean by snow, we get far too much to ride much during the winter - average 48", last year almost 100". Temp this morning was 1F when I left for work. I took the car. As I have gotten older I ride less in cold weather, pain to get dressed/undressed for the ride.
I feel the main problem is the attitude about driving in the US. Most do not take it seriously. Cell phone use while driving should be illegal. Wish it would not have to be, but people do not seem to have common sense to use phones properly - especially texting while driving. People should start by following the rules of the road and taking pride in their driving.
Quote from: GIGOLO on December 13, 2008, 11:09:25 PM
Being able to think for yourself is starting to become a thing of the past. To let an individual decide whether it's right or wrong to tear ass down a side street with a loud pipe is freedom. Freedom to decide for ourselves if we want a loud pipe, a bike that does over 180, to get high, to get drunk, to want to ride mandem, to marry your best friend who happens to be the same sex as you. I could go all day, but the point is simple, I want the freedom to decide.
Except that your freedom ends where my ears begin. You are free to decide, but you also accept the consequences of your decision. With freedom comes personal responsibility.
Found this on the Ohio EPA web site. From the wording, auto exhaust, such a Midas, is likely EPA legal. The downside to a major national chain installing non-conforming exhaust could be significant. Haven't had a muffler replaced in quite a while so I have not looked at the warranty about EPA compliance.
Also seems that enforcement of EPA regulations is by the EPA, not local law enforcement. Local communities can have local sound ordinance (cannot be more strict than the original exhaust system), that is easier to measure/enforce than the EPA test. BTW the EPA teat is not a stationary sound test - it is moving at full throttle in a specific gear and rpm (determined by a formula) past a sound meter - I know because I have done these tests.
What it boils down to, is that some not OEM car mufflers may already be EPA compliant. There is nothing stopping motorcycle exhaust companies from making EPA compliant systems.
From Ohio EPA
Question 26. Can I install glasspacks or small turbo mufflers instead of direct-fit or
cataloged replacement universal mufflers?
Answer 26. Exhaust back-pressure is an element of design of the emission system and any
change could be considered a violation because of the possible effects on emissions. Any such
changes should be approached cautiously because of the potential to adversely affect emissions,
performance, and warranty coverage.
While Ohio EPA would not recommend, encourage, or endorse any exhaust modification
that makes the vehicle different than the original certified system, at the present time Ohio EPA
is not pursuing enforcement actions if a repair shop merely installs glasspacks or small turbo
mufflers after (not at) the last converter and after the exhaust system has been "Y"ed together to
a single exhaust pipe.
Quote from: 2old2fat2slow on December 14, 2008, 03:41:26 PM
My big,ugly,obnoxiously loud metric cruiser has a horn on it that sounds like a freight train and here in D.C. the meat puppets do not hear it over their whiney,self-centered inner voices. They do hear my Vance & Hines 2 into 1 when I rattle the moldings off their doors with a couple blips on the throttle. I have a close call nearly every time I ride on interstate 95 including today while on my way home from church. I will run loud pipes until I move to an area where the car drivers are paying attention. Where is that????
How about that? I'm in the DC area too. Maybe some these other riders should spend some time here with these homicidal drivers to get another point of view.
Quote from: tzracer on December 15, 2008, 01:09:45 PM
Except that your freedom ends where my ears begin. You are free to decide, but you also accept the consequences of your decision. With freedom comes personal responsibility.
The hard part about personal responsibility, is that people dont always do what you want them to do with it. This country is filling up with people who look, act, and think just like everybody else. You might say that an aftermarket exhaust isnt going to be the magic pill to make one unique from the rest. I say if you let them take that away, then something else, and so on and so forth, eventually there will be 5 billion John Q. Publics'. Tolerance is the word, its being pushed everyday.
Brian is right. The vast majority of aftermarket systems are non-compliant with EPA regulations. So... noisy or not, they're still federally-prohibited.
What's more compelling is that the AMA is butting into local politics. I can't see why an organization based in Ohio would have any business interfering in local NYC politics. Let's face it, after selling off much of their pro-racing interests, the AMA has become little more than just another political action commitee.
I suspect that their interest in this lies more in protecting the gray-market manufactures than defending your right to have noisy bike. Personally I'm pissed that I have to be an AMA member to race with AHRMA. All you have to do is read their monthly to realize how "out of touch" the AMA is from the typical motorcyclist. Hell, this year they nominated someone from their own board of directors for "motorcyclist of the year". I can think of 10 people off the top of my head that have had more (positive) influence than Stan Simpson- Come on! The only think Stan Simpson did was to realize that the AMA leadership was too incompetent to run their most valuable asset-- AMA-superbike.
It's funny to hear someone say that cars are allways trying to change lanes into them, but they rev up there loud pipes to warn them. I thought the loud pipe was to prevent them from even trying? I'm confused?
Quote from: 123user on December 15, 2008, 04:10:29 PM
Brian is right. The vast majority of aftermarket systems are non-compliant with EPA regulations. So... noisy or not, they're still federally-prohibited.
What's more compelling is that the AMA is butting into local politics. I can't see why an organization based in Ohio would have any business interfering in local NYC politics.
Because it's the
American Motorcyclist Association, not the Ohio Motorcyclist Association? The bigger question should be: What is a lawyer from Arkansas who grew up in Illinois doing as a NY senator (for the time being, anyway)?
Yes, they are basically a form of a PAC, special interest lobby, call them what you will; but whether you have a dislike for special interest groups or not, they are at least standing up for your rights as a motorcyclist. I don't agree with everything that they do, such as their opposition to the proposed tariffs on <500cc bike imports from the EU in retaliation for the tariffs that they place on US beef imports, but at least they advocate their constituency's interests zealously.
People are free to choose. It is too bad if they don't make the choices that you want them to make. Personally I don't think people are melding into a single type of person. However the slow erosion of our constitutional rights, such as the Patriot Act, will ensure that all people are the same.
Aftermarket exhaust are fine as long as they are EPA compliant. Motorcycle exhaust companies are slow to accept this. The AMA has had meetings with them because the EPA has begun to take notice. The companies have admitted that the problem is one of their own making.
The AMA is against the singling out of motorcycles.
The problem with the AMA is that now their primary function is as a PAC, while racing, riding, wrenching...etc has become a sideline. Really, their main role in racing has become as an insurer... which is sad.
The point I was making is that the AMA is wasting their money defending something locally even though it's clearly already illegal federally. Its illogical to "beat the drum" on dead issues such as this, but they do because it evokes an emotional response from the membership... I call that propaganda!
Its pretty obvious that the AMA board has been unable to operate effectively for years. Recent years have shown unethical behavior and a complete inability to officiate racing with a fairly applied rulebook.
I agree with the erosion of our rights, however, the AMA does not seem to be ethically quallified to represent the average motorcyclist.
Quote from: 123user on December 16, 2008, 11:26:04 AM
The problem with the AMA is that now their primary function is as a PAC, while racing, riding, wrenching...etc has become a sideline. Really, their main role in racing has become as an insurer... which is sad.
The point I was making is that the AMA is wasting their money defending something locally even though it's clearly already illegal federally. Its illogical to "beat the drum" on dead issues such as this, but they do because it evokes an emotional response from the membership... I call that propaganda!
Its pretty obvious that the AMA board has been unable to operate effectively for years. Recent years have shown unethical behavior and a complete inability to officiate racing with a fairly applied rulebook.
I agree with the erosion of our rights, however, the AMA does not seem to be ethically quallified to represent the average motorcyclist.
If you ever read their monthly publication,
American Motorcyclist, the Letters section is replete with instances of people riding motorcycles who receive tickets from state governments in violation of federal laws, e.g., HOV lane usage on Interstate highways, and so on. The AMA needs to defend the local rights of motorcyclists because there seems to be no appetite on anyone else's part to ensure that the federal rights of motorcyclists are protected against incursion by local governments.
As far as being a PAC, the AMA makes no bones about it. That has always (or at least for a long time) been their primary mission. They've promoted racing as a form of motorcycle advocacy, but they were founded for and continue to be an organization which is dedicated to protecting the rights of American motorcyclists. Their moto has for some time been:
Rights, Riding, Racing. You'll note that
Rights is first.
From their website:
Founded in 1924, the AMA has an unparalleled history of pursuing, protecting and promoting the interests of the world's largest and most dedicated group of motorcycle enthusiasts. The AMA focuses on rights, riding and racing through its government relations work, by sanctioning road and off-road riding activities and overseeing professional and amateur racing events.You'll see that even their racing promotion activities are a form of their advocacy of motorcycles in general.
Protecting a local area's rights such as this is not "beating a dead drum" because proposals such as this are the beginning of the slippery slope. The ability of an individual to sue NYC because he or she received a ticket for an aftermarket pipe is limited. The ability for the AMA to do so is much greater, and if they succeed, then the next time that NYC considers such a proposal, they'll think twice. The same is true for Chicago, LA, Miami, Dallas, or wherever, when they consider such a proposal and there is existing case law on the books which states that such municipalities cannot contravene federal law with local ordinances.
That is their point, and it is well justified. I agree that the AMA has its own issues, as does any political organization, but I support them fully whenever they seek to protect motorcyclists rights from unfair federal legislation or from local legislation that attempts to fly in the face of federal statutes.
"Slippery-slope"- Give me a break! Sounds like chicken-little. Seems we've become a "minority" that needs "saving and protecting"... pretty sad isn't it! The AMA has become a self-serving organization. Just like every large PAC, their real objective is to remain politically relevant and well funded... and if they get a chance to help somebody, well they might just do that too!
If you want to dump your money into lobbiest group, feel free...I just like to ride, I don't need a legal team.
How many recall the attempt to ban sport bikes in the mid eighties. If not for the AMA it probably would have succeeded. A US senator had a bill written ready to submit to congress - AMA through their membership made it such a hot potato that the senator dropped it. The IIHS was behind the bill, they have never shied away from the fact that they would like motorcycles to go away.
Yes motorcycles are a minority. Most people could care less if motorcycles disappeared. I prefer the AMA getting out of professional racing to concentrate on protecting my privilege to ride.
Here's a quote from Stan Simpson when asked what he thought the No. 1 issue is facing the A.M.A., "noise". He states "it's a grassroots thing, you have to make it socially correct thing to do to reduce the sound level"
So you can probably guess which way they would probably go when faced with the question. Furthermore in this interview in the Jan 2009 issue of American Motorcyclist, he mentions that Dave Mungenast Sr. (late board of directors member) urged him to turn the A.M.A. from a club into a business. I think thats where I start to lose respect.
Quote from: 123user on December 16, 2008, 01:22:28 PM
"Slippery-slope"- Give me a break! Sounds like chicken-little. Seems we've become a "minority" that needs "saving and protecting"... pretty sad isn't it! The AMA has become a self-serving organization. Just like every large PAC, their real objective is to remain politically relevant and well funded... and if they get a chance to help somebody, well they might just do that too!
If you want to dump your money into lobbiest group, feel free...I just like to ride, I don't need a legal team.
Fine, you find a better way to protect your riding rights and I'll listen. Until then, whatever political grievances you may have with the AMA, you can't deny that they strongly advocate motorcyclists' rights, and the issue that started this thread is a motorcyclists's rights issue, not a thread on the merits or problems with the AMA.
You can talk all you want about not needing any lawyers when someone else's lawyers legislate away your rights to purchase, own, and ride sportbikes. Your tune will then change.
Or you can sit around while the rest of us protect your rights and just be the beneficiary, instead being the vocal malcontent. You call this exercise "chicken little," but you are the one who believes in being passive until the time for action has passed and you have no recourse. What's the name for that? Something like death through inaction?
Freedom is earned, not given.
AMA is a PAC. So? They also still sanction a LOT of amateur MX racing. I don't do a lot of street riding so I'm not sure what they do as far as arranging rides or gatherings but the PAC part of things absolutely affects me on the street directly.
Well, as long as your willing to admit that the AMA is pretty much just a PAC, and that they use your and my money to influence legislators, and you're happy with that, then we just disagree over the ethics of politics.
But, maybe these are real issues in high density populations, with large concentrations of inconsiderate, idiots that require legislation to control. Here in Missouri (or missoura if your a real hick) it ain't an issue. Our bikes don't have to have mufflers, or turn signals, or mirrors, or emissions, or even brakes on both wheels... Heck, don't even need a brake light unless originally equipt. But we also don't have lots of sensational media attention, or lots of fools standing on top of their tanks.
I have a full yosh system on my TL... and its really loud if I'm cranking on the throttle. But, when I'm driving through neighborhoods, I don't. And as far as "loud pipes save lives"... well that's just crap, I've had just as many near-hits on my loud TL as on my quiet Hawk. After 16 years of commuting in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic, dodging dump trucks, dreamers, cell-phoners, drunks, texters, eaters, and readers, I can reasonably affirm that the relative noise of your bike has little effect on drivers... but lots of effect on neighbors.
Now when the AMA talks about defending actual rights, like with health insurance, I applaud them. But you have no "right" to ride around with a screaming exhaust. For them to pat themselves on the back for this... well its just a waste of our money.
Loud mufflers are about machisimo and showing off... when the AMA defends it, they do the whole motorcycle culture a disservice. Here's the perspective to keep in mind: "we-racers" are some of the best informed and responsible type of rider... but there's a lot of real problems with lots riders out there. From reckless riding, to alcohol and riding, to inappropriate riding apparel. By putting "rights" ahead of education... the AMA is really just digging the hole from the other side.
Quote from: 123user on December 17, 2008, 05:40:06 PM
Loud mufflers are about machisimo and showing off... when the AMA defends it, they do the whole motorcycle culture a disservice. Here's the perspective to keep in mind: "we-racers" are some of the best informed and responsible type of rider... but there's a lot of real problems with lots riders out there. From reckless riding, to alcohol and riding, to inappropriate riding apparel. By putting "rights" ahead of education... the AMA is really just digging the hole from the other side.
The AMA is not defending loud pipes. They are objecting to motorcycles as being singled out to have exhaust with an EPA label.
Brian,
Do you know of a single aftermarket brand of exhaust that is not louder than an oem, epa approved silencer. Yes its a technicallity, but in reality (as I said before) its already illegal to remove emission effecting part nationally. Redundant, and a waste of NYC politicians time... yes! Its also a waste of the AMA's time and money. You can't fight every battle... whether you have the money or not...its just not good politics.
I know that you and I both live in a region of the country that I would consider a paradise as compared to NYC. Low crime, clean(er) air, plentiful water, and generally good common sense-type people. To us this is ridiculous- but there are a lot of very eccentric people in NYC, and its dirty, and noisy, and polluted. Maybe New Yorkers are sick of kid's screaming through town, or wanna-be's on choking Hardley's. Is there a single NYC native responding to this thread?
Local politics is just that... local. Its supposed to be the closest thing to "will-o-the-people". When outsiders like you, or me, or the AMA stick their nose in it, we are subverting the will of the locals there.
On national issue, like health insurance, the AMA does a lot of good. And I'm not condemning everything they do... because they do some pretty good stuff, but, I'm a member too- I feel I also have a right to criticize their over-involvement in politics. Its obvious that the AMA has genuine internal ethical and structural issues... they should be concentrating in cleaning up their own problems before telling NYC what to do. But that doesn't rally the troops, or increase membership, or make for good horn-tooting. In the end, its a PR issue.
What next, a small town in Massachusettes will ban all motorcycles from entering their town park on a state road!
But wait! That did happen! It took 15 years of fighting to get the town ordiance revoked! Unfortunatly, we all pay the price when liberties are lost!
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
Benjamin Franklin
Quote from: tzracer on December 17, 2008, 06:13:13 PM
The AMA is not defending loud pipes. They are objecting to motorcycles as being singled out to have exhaust with an EPA label.
+1 Nobody is disagreeing that loud pipes can be annoying (though some people make anecdotal arguments that they "save lives"); this issue is that legislators are not addressing the actual issues: noise and pollution. If they wish to reduce noise levels, then issue noise ordinances for the affected municipalities. If someone living in such an area really wants a loud aftermarket pipe, then they'll have to make the choice between having that and being able to ride about their town. Ditto emissions; if they want aftermarket exhausts to comply with EPA standards, then let them legislate that at the Federal level, or at lower levels of government, as California has done for years.
But to single out motorcycles is not fair, as is the banning of such aftermarket accessories wholesale for only a single class of vehicle, when someone with a car can go out and do the same exact thing, making more noise and pollution in the process - and
that is what the AMA is defending.
Quote from: 123userWell, as long as your willing to admit that the AMA is pretty much just a PAC, and that they use your and my money to influence legislators, and you're happy with that, then we just disagree over the ethics of politics.
That's what I started with, about three posts ago in this thread; I believe that I called them a PAC before anyone else did in this thread, so I never stated otherwise. As I wrote, if you have an issue with special interests, that is your concern, and if you find the politics of the business to be distasteful, then so be it; but to claim that this is not an issue of motorcyclists rights just doesn't make sense.
I'm not familar with the Massachusette's case, but from the description, motorcyclist's constitutional right to association and assembly were being abused... Good fight for the AMA!
No one, No where has any constitutional right to operate any motor vehicle on any public road... case closed. There is no expectation that laws be uniform between bikes and cars because there is no constitutional right either expressed or implied. Your only legal expectation is that the law be applied equally to PEOPLE... can't discriminate on law enforcement on the basis of race, gender, age, gayness, etc.
Its just a pissing match, and a crappy battle for the AMA. After the litigation between AHRMA and Team Obsolete, it should be obvious to the motocycling community that engaging in no-win, pissing matches is a waste of time and money.
Quote from: 123user on December 18, 2008, 08:53:19 AM
I'm not familar with the Massachusette's case, but from the description, motorcyclist's constitutional right to association and assembly were being abused... Good fight for the AMA!
No one, No where has any constitutional right to operate any motor vehicle on any public road... case closed. There is no expectation that laws be uniform between bikes and cars because there is no constitutional right either expressed or implied. Your only legal expectation is that the law be applied equally to PEOPLE... can't discriminate on law enforcement on the basis of race, gender, age, gayness, etc.
Its just a pissing match, and a crappy battle for the AMA. After the litigation between AHRMA and Team Obsolete, it should be obvious to the motocycling community that engaging in no-win, pissing matches is a waste of time and money.
The AMA's argument isn't based around discrimination against motorcycles vs. other motor vehicles. It's based around municipal and state governments' attempts to contravene federal laws that specifically apply to motorcycles. If such laws didn't exist at the federal level, then such arguments as the non-existence of explicit rights for one class of motor vehicles would make perfect sense; but when federal laws that accord certain rights to motorcycles are already on the books, then what the AMA does is challenge municipalities and states that are effectively seeking to break such laws.
That argument currently works better but they'd switch to discrimination if need be.