Hello Ladies and Gents. I'm obviously pretty partial in this arguement - as I ride an Aprilia 1000 - but I really feel that the Ducati 1098 (and, for next year, the 1198) is too much of a class overdog in Heavywight. The performance of the 1098, and certianly the 1198, will be more on par with 1000cc I4s than the stalwart 750s and 1000 twins that populate heavyweight.
Let's take a que from National/World Superbikes.
1 - When 750 I4s raced against twins, they were 1000cc. Furthermore, the twins were administered a weight penalty.
2 - 1000cc twins were able to compete with the I4s, but ran in a higher state of tune, so...
3 - The displacement of the twins was bumped to 1200cc to compete with the 1000cc I4s.
So, if a 1000cc twin is roughly equivilant to a 750cc I4, and a 120cc twin is roughly equivilant to a 1000cc I4... Then certianly a 1100/1200cc twin is an overdog when compared with a 750cc I4 (or 1000cc twin) - which is the base configuration for Heavyweight Superbike and Supersport.
Can we please reclassify, for the above mentioned reasons, the >1000cc twins to Unlimited?
I agree,get em' out of F-40 too....(I can't afford one)
I agree too that a 1098 liquid cooled flagship bike from Ducati isn't a Heavyweight bike.
Although it doesn't affect me, I do too.
Mark
The 2009 bike is going to 1198cc.
:banghead:
I agree with the 1098 not being a heavyweight but not the request that 1000cc and over should be unlimited. Having raced a Buell 1125R in HW Superbike I think it fits in well. The 750s and the 1125R make about the same power. I even had a 600 draft by me in the HS SB race at Daytona.
The 1098 though is a special bike that was built to compete with the 1000cc IL4 and does so very well.
Yeah Joel - I neglected to consider the Buell...
I don't think the 1125R Buell and the 1098 are really on the same plain. Having raced with ya' and the 1125R in HWSB - I'll agree that the 1125R fits in Heavyweight.
I dissagree with removing the 1098 base models from heavyweight. I would agree with the 1198 versions of 09 and beyond as well as the R version as those are more closely related to the 1000cc I4s but the 1098 base does not have any kind of big performance advantage against the GSXR750. The 1098 is heavier and doesnt have a big difference in peak HP than the heavyweight bikes.
The class is generally won by someone on a 600 anyway and racing the base 1098 against 1000cc I4s is a disaster, it doesnt make anywhere near the same performance numbers in that catagory. I believe the 1098 is much closer to being a heavyweight than it is an Unlimited bike. The R and the 1198s I agree but not the 1098cc bikes
I think either all in or all out and I agree with all out, no 1098 or 1198's at all.
Quote from: Rookie on November 06, 2008, 12:09:24 PM
I dissagree with removing the 1098 base models from heavyweight. I would agree with the 1198 versions of 09 and beyond as well as the R version as those are more closely related to the 1000cc I4s but the 1098 base does not have any kind of big performance advantage against the GSXR750. The 1098 is heavier and doesnt have a big difference in peak HP than the heavyweight bikes.
The class is generally won by someone on a 600 anyway and racing the base 1098 against 1000cc I4s is a disaster, it doesnt make anywhere near the same performance numbers in that catagory. I believe the 1098 is much closer to being a heavyweight than it is an Unlimited bike. The R and the 1198s I agree but not the 1098cc bikes
Well, generalizing doesn't work does it? If you say that the class is "generally won by someone on a 600 anyway", that would follow that the GSXR750 and the 1098 should be Middleweight bikes.
What kind of power does your 1098 put out? All of the dyno sheets I've seen seem to show me that they put out more power than my GSXR750.
My SV1000S wouldn't keep up with a stock 600 in a straight line, but I beat most of those guys too. If I could run it in Middleweight, I might have kept it, along with Suzuki still making the bike and offering contingency.
they are already excluded from heavyweight supersport as that class is limited to 1000cc twins, they are only allowed in heavyweight superbike. A good compromise would be to change the superbike rules from unlimited twins to 1125cc twins, that would allow the original 1098 and the Buell in that class as the 750 fours are allowed to be bored to 775 for that class.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 06, 2008, 12:24:04 PM
Well, generalizing doesn't work does it? If you say that the class is "generally won by someone on a 600 anyway", that would follow that the GSXR750 and the 1098 should be Middleweight bikes.
What kind of power does your 1098 put out? All of the dyno sheets I've seen seem to show me that they put out more power than my GSXR750.
My SV1000S wouldn't keep up with a stock 600 in a straight line, but I beat most of those guys too. If I could run it in Middleweight, I might have kept it, along with Suzuki still making the bike and offering contingency.
My point was you are all making the argument that it makes too much power for the class so I pointed out the 600cc I4 win quite frequently in that class.
A stock 1098 makes about 140hp. My 1098 witha full system, race ecu and PC3 makes about 149. My GSXR750 made 141 on pump gas with a slip on system and PC3.
Hardly a huge offset in power
Quote from: ahastings on November 06, 2008, 12:41:50 PM
they are already excluded from heavyweight supersport as that class is limited to 1000cc twins, they are only allowed in heavyweight superbike. A good compromise would be to change the superbike rules from unlimited twins to 1125cc twins, that would allow the original 1098 and the Buell in that class as the 750 fours are allowed to be bored to 775 for that class.
This is something that makes sense
Quote from: ahastings on November 06, 2008, 12:41:50 PM
they are already excluded from heavyweight supersport as that class is limited to 1000cc twins, they are only allowed in heavyweight superbike. A good compromise would be to change the superbike rules from unlimited twins to 1125cc twins, that would allow the original 1098 and the Buell in that class as the 750 fours are allowed to be bored to 775 for that class.
I agree with this as well. Cap the CC's @ 1126 and we are pretty much at a level playing field.
If you start asking the 1098's to compete against the Unlimited bikes with 180+hp you are putting the Ducati guys at a significant disadvantage.
As Rookie points out, the GSX-r 750 and the 1098 are quite close in performance...
Quote from: ahastings on November 06, 2008, 12:41:50 PM
they are already excluded from heavyweight supersport as that class is limited to 1000cc twins, they are only allowed in heavyweight superbike. A good compromise would be to change the superbike rules from unlimited twins to 1125cc twins, that would allow the original 1098 and the Buell in that class as the 750 fours are allowed to be bored to 775 for that class.
This seems to be the best answer yet.
What Arnie suggested sounds fair.
Quote from: Rookie on November 06, 2008, 12:49:49 PM
A stock 1098 makes about 140hp. My 1098 witha full system, race ecu and PC3 makes about 149. My GSXR750 made 141 on pump gas with a slip on system and PC3.
Hardly a huge offset in power
Does torque figures come into play with this comparison? My understanding is that more HP translates to a better top speed for a given bike. More torque translates to a better drive out of those slow corners.
In the latest Sport rider comparison it has a ZX10R @161HP and a 181 mph top speed, then there is the GSXR750 @ 123 HP and 170 mph top speed.
Still seems to me the 1098 is not a Heavyweight SS bike. I can concede allowing into Superbike.
Mark
Quote from: roadracer22 on November 07, 2008, 10:26:05 AM
Does torque figures come into play with this comparison? My understanding is that more HP translates to a better top speed for a given bike. More torque translates to a better drive out of those slow corners.
In the latest Sport rider comparison it has a ZX10R @161HP and a 181 mph top speed, then there is the GSXR750 @ 123 HP and 170 mph top speed.
Still seems to me the 1098 is not a Heavyweight SS bike. I can concede allowing into Superbike.
Mark
so whats your beef the 1098 is currently NOT legal in hw ss.
I really don't have a beef since it doesn't affect me. It does seem to me though that it really isn't a Heavyweight anything, but if the majority votes to include it as a Superbike then there ya go. I just don't see all the hype about it not having enough hp.
Mark
Hmmm... I guess I was lazy and didn't read the HWSS rules.
Capping HWSB at 1126 (or whatever) CC makes some sense. Perhaps 1098s in SS trim allowed in HWSB?
Or have a as-yet-to-be-determined weight penalty given to the Ducatis, based upon thier performances in thier first 3 rounds of competition...
I keeeeed, I keed. Just a World Superbike joke...
I raced the 1098 this year and had my hands full at some rounds against the GSXR750, torque does help, but I think were the biggest difference is seen is at Daytona, the 1098 simply has more legs, period, but on more technical tracks the playing field is way closer, I think the 1198 will be unfair in the heavyweight class, as that bike simply spanks my 1098, a 1098 can and does hold its own in the UNL classes, as long as we're talking a technical track, at Daytona, forget it! I also race a GSXR 1000 and at some tracks prefered to race my 1098 in UNL over the GSXR, VIR for example, I sucked on my GSXR but went well on the Duc, bottom line the 1098 fits well in Hvywt, I bet most of the guys that dont want it in there run a 600...thats their choice and thats why there appears to be such a huge gap, and there is between a 600 and the 1098...go look how many 750's actually line up in the Hvywt SB classes...Happy Holidays!
Dennis Espinosa
Quote from: djduc748l on November 20, 2008, 01:41:53 PM
I bet most of the guys that dont want it in there run a 600...
Naw - some are on Aprilias, which might be worse. LOL!
Congratulations on a great season Dennis!
I'd just like to raise the point that there is probably much less in this arguement at a small track such as Summit or Blackhawk. I personally beleive that the torque of a twin is favorable in this instance.
Anyhow - Daytona may be an oddity in that it favors power so much... but that IS where the national championships are decided, therefore holds tremendus importance and ought not be marginalized.
Mmmm are they gonna let the I-4 to be bored out to 820cc like the flyer suggests?
They shouldn't be in HW since the 750's need a place to call home but F40 is fair!1098 is a good choice for F40 since those Ducati's are so slow and the riders can't keep up with the 600's no matter how much power they have. Seems very fair to me! :boink: :thumb: