What do you guys know about this company? I sent a resume a while back (probably found them on the net) and they returned to me an acceptance with a discount sheet. It seems that they sell a wide variety of fuels and I'm not sure which one I would need. Anybody???
ask SuperDave .. he'll know
Yeah, there are tons of products! LOL!
How much compression are you running?
T111 is ALWAYS good. Accelerates nice. Clean cool burn.
What are you using now, too? That might give me some ideas. Tell me more...
Had 11:1 when it blew and was running pump gas. However, since it's getting new cylinders and pistons and a complete rebuild next week, I was thinking of going back to the original 12:1 and race fuel. I just don't want to have to spend a fortune on fuel now that I've had to spend a large part of my budget repairing this motor. They gave me level three pricing as a racer support program. Which one should I go with and can you sell it to me for less? Please let me know.
Thanks!
That's world wide race support pricing.
When Muzzy won the World Superbike championship with Russell...
When Lawson won the Daytona 200 on the Yamaha over Russe...
Same prices for them too...
Shipping cost is the tricky part. You just have to watch that, but Rick is set up for the best discounts with shippers for different parts of the country.
T111 would be really good. You could do T112. It's a bit more expensive. Rick might think that would be the way to go. I do really, really love T111.
I use some of the oxygenated stuff myself. TO137, TO72, TO99, M80, T113, RFG...I've tried everything for an edge, research etc.
To dial it in, it's good to know what you were using before. Do you know?
I think they were running the race gas sold at the track before, not sure which octane.
Well, what were YOU using?
Fuel is stupid; it goes in through jets. But if you make it lean, it will all go boom. And the specific gravity is relevent here to that.
What fuel do they sell at the track?
I was using 93 octane pump gas from Mobil.
Ok, so lets say the guy before was using something else like VP C11. It's specific gravity is .710 and has no oxygen in it.
You put in street gas, which has a specific gravity of .755 or so. It's heavier, so fewer hydrocarbons actually enter the engine with the same jet size. If we were talking about a Busch race car, the difference in jet sized for those two fuels could be four to five jet sizes.
Additionally, street gas has an oxygenate in it. So, it leans it out even more. And the oxygenate's correct burn ratio is lower (likes to be richer) And it's unleaded, so the combusion isn't as complete. Maybe that was the potential piston problem? Not sure...
I had also switched the main jet from a 175 to a 165 per BCM. I did that before racing at Homestead, however, and had no apparent problems until the end of the day at Moroso Saturday. Should I change it back?
QuoteOk, so lets say the guy before was using something else like VP C11. It's specific gravity is .710 and has no oxygen in it.
You put in street gas, which has a specific gravity of .755 or so. It's heavier, so fewer hydrocarbons actually enter the engine with the same jet size. If we were talking about a Busch race car, the difference in jet sized for those two fuels could be four to five jet sizes.
Are you sure Dave?
If you use fuel of higher specific gravity, more mass of fuel will flow through the jet (jets are numbered by volume flow, fuel has about the same viscosity, so volume through the jet should be the same - higher SG means more mass, lower SG means less mass - chemical equations work by mass). This should cause the jetting to become richer, so one would have to lean the jetting when going to higher SG fuel. (not including any changes due to different oxygen content)
QuoteI had also switched the main jet from a 175 to a 165 per BCM. I did that before racing at Homestead, however, and had no apparent problems until the end of the day at Moroso Saturday. Should I change it back?
Let's start at the beginning.
What did the bike come with when you got it? You don't have much of an idea on what fuel they used other than "race gas" from the track? Who told you to make the change and why?
The bike originally had 12:1 J&E Pistons in it. It was over-revved and had a rod put through the piston before I got it. The previous owner then put in Wiseco 11:1 pistons so the bike could run on pump gas (that's what I was told) when the motor was repaired. I know very little about engine internals, etc, and am trying to learn as quickly as possible about all of these racing things. Thus all the questions here. When talking to Bruce at BCM (the original builder of the bike and one of the top Ducati builders in the country), I told him the jetting that was in it and he suggested I change it. I obviously did what he suggested. Maybe it was a bad piston, maybe it was a combination of all the changes, maybe it was...who knows for sure? My main goal here is to get it back basically as new and do everything right so it doesn't happen again anytime in the near future. If that means going back to a 175 jet instead of a 165, or running race fuel, or whatever...that's what I want to find out and do. I really appreciate your time reading and answering my questions that never seem to end.
Thanks,
Bryan
Ok, so you basically have a changed motor that we really don't have a perfect answer on.
I think the best thing to do would be to go to a shop that has a Factory eddy current dyno. There are about four of them in Florida. They can actually give you a consistent answer about where you're at. I think that would be money well spent. Find out where it's at jetting wise and go from there. Get that thing dialed in.
11:1 doesn't seem to high, but you've got big pistons. A lot of distance to cover without a lot of time, compared to a weenie little 600 four.
So, I can't say you NEED race gas. That would be contingent upon the combustion chamber shape, etc. A leaded fuel will tend to have a bit more complete combustion, given that the fuel is chemically engineered to burn quick enough. T111 should work really well for what you're working on.
Yes Dave I am a physics instructor now, but at one time I did work at Buell Motor Company (1986-1990). I was the production manager, technical writing staff, warranty department, test rider amoung other duties.
What you may be interpreting as a condescending tone, is that my posts are written (hopefully) for all to understand, so I may add things that you understand, but other readers may not. My intent is to get to the truth and hopefully help/educate others on the board.
The reason I ask is because I always heard the opposite, such as the following quote from http://www.leesracing.com/articles/a2.html
"The general rule of thumb is that if we are moving from a higher SG gasoline to a lower SG gasoline, we need to richen the mixture by going to larger jets. On the other hand, if we are moving from a lower SG gasoline to a higher SG gasoline, we need to lean the mixture by going to smaller jets.
How much leaner, or how much richer?? Here is some ballpark information to get you started. If the new fuel is lighter (lower SG) than the old fuel, richen the mixture by one jet size for every 0.0 10 difference in SG. If the new fuel is heavier (higher SG) than the old fuel, lean the mixture by one jet size for every 0.010 change in SG. This will only work if the carburetor was correctly jetted for the old gas. If we are out to lunch with the old gasoline, we may still be out to lunch with the new gasoline. "
This article was written by a Union 76 fuel engineer (Tim Wusz).
I have also emailed several race fuel companies asking their opinion. I will follow up after (if) they reply. I sent the following message:
"If I switch from a lower to a higher specific gravity fuel, all else being equal, would I need to go richer or leaner with my jetting?"
Just checked, this is the reply from VP
"Going to a higher specific gravity fuel will automatically make the engine richer. So you will have to lean it down."
I think I'll try some T111, but I will wait for the opinion of the actual engine builder before trying to decide what my final decision will be on the jetting. Thanks again for all of the advice, and I respectfully reserve the right to continue asking far too many newbie questions and hoping for more answers from you guys. ;D
Thats one thing that i thought of (race gas) then visited VP's web site, and then decided that i was glad 93 pump gas from shell would suite me just fine !!.
FYI i lived in West Palm Beach for 5 years, i miss it. ( I used to work at P&W across from Moroso) Say hi to it for me on the way by !
QuoteI think I'll try some T111, but I will wait for the opinion of the actual engine builder before trying to decide what my final decision will be on the jetting.;D
Which is the best way to go. Get it on a good dyno, if possible. Intuition will carry you and the engine builder only so far, then you need to check it on something that can give you information.
QuoteThats one thing that i thought of (race gas) then visited VP's web site, and then decided that i was glad 93 pump gas from shell would suite me just fine !!
Race gas is only really necessary for a couple of reasons...
One, the motor has necessary loads on it that require a different fuel.
Two, the rules body requires certain fuels.
Three, there are power gains to be had from fuels.
A motorcycle road racer needs to get effective use of his bike before it is necessary to look for power gains. Pump gas is relatively inexpensive, even though it has gone up, and still burns quite quickly in our application.
Rules wise, CCS has stated rules. However, they are not enforced. As the rules are written, street gasoline is NOT legal. In fact, all unleaded racing fuels are illegal, along will all oxygenated racing fuels. There is no way to necessarily say that a given race gas at a race track would be legal also. Hence, why CCS does not enforce that rule.