with war looming overhead like a raincloud on a race weekend.... i was curious to see just how many people acutally support this war of Mr. Bush's(and i dont mean supporting the troops... just agreeing or disagreeing with it in general).... personally, i dont, but that's neither here nor there.
i dont's want this to turn into yet another big political debate (*cough cough like that big helmet thing a while back *cough cough).... k? just making that clear right away...
-jen
http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3
Listen and learn.
This guy is being an ASS. Little Girl? She deserves more respect than that. I have no problem with debating, though. She does seem to be lacking for a strong arguement, as well as a few other things. ::)
This is a real tough question for some. How DO you keep peace and such with Saddam in power? Some think that we should slip in and out with saddam and other high leaders and be done with it. But, it's never that simple.
War is looming overhead, and that's real scary.
I do want to say that I am thankful for the troops that sacrifice what they do for us. My brother is in the Mid-East right now, and has been since December.
My generation, and the one that the caller seems to be from has not had to go through a war that affected the American public immensely, and has not had to fight for anything we have. (unlike the civil rights movement, women voting, etc) So, some people have really no gratitude for some of the things we do have, and there's a LOT of ignorance. I just hope that as little killing as possible goes on in this war.
I dont like war in general, and think we should wait until at least the UN backs us, but the fact is that it's coming. So, with that in mind, I do hope we quickly eliminate saddam and his followers.
Please refer to the man as PRESIDENT Bush. Go check out Drudgereport.com to read about political opponents going through an industrial shredder.
Need an option: Support the War, not Bush and his ways.
If i sell you something and you tell me you will pay me later and then you don't....i keep letting it go on and on without doing anything about it..sooner or later you are going to want something else... i am not there but from what i have seen it looks as if everything has been done to make this happen without fighting but when you have got to do something about it for the sake of something worse later then you have to take care of it just my $.02
I'm curious why the resistance against Bush. If someone else were to propose an end to this in Iraq, would it matter who it was?
Freedom is not free. I think we've heard that enough.
Peace does not always come peacefully. The only reason that we've had a good peaceful time is because of what was done it the past. And there were those that had to die for it.
For some twelve years, the world community has tried, with the aid and resources of the United States, to try to work out a resolution to the problem. It hasn't happened.
France, Germany, and Russia have a huge financial stake in Saddam Hussein. When he's out, they loose billions. Isn't that nice that someone that you consider your friend and ally goes behind the international communities back and works with a butcher.
Here's my question...
Can anyone give me a good reason why Saddam and his gang of thugs should be left in power? Remember, he has tortured, maimed, gassed, raped, and murdered the local people and those of some countries around him.
I did not support the war in 1990/1991. I felt that it was an Arab matter that the Arab community should have taken care of. Our involvement was requested by them, in addition to the information that was then let out about the incredible acts that Saddam's army was doing to the Kuwait's.
However, I feel that this time, it is necessary. The world organization is happy to appease the man. For the French, Germans, and Russians, if they can make a whole lot of money for their countries businesses, Saddam can go ahead an kill and murder. No problem.
But somehow, the United States, Great Britan, and Spain are bad because we actually have the fortitude to do something.
Remember, it's hard to do the right thing. Often times, you can be ridiculed for doing it.
Pit_Girl...
I know you're a bit younger, so I'll be curious as to your response. I know, it's neither here nor there, but if you can't talk about it and give your reason for support, you might not have very long legs to walk on.
You can't have peace on your terms unless you are willing to fight for it and defend it may seem odd but war and peace are inseparable. The world we live in is far too troubled and the US can't solve everyone's problems to their satisfaction, and that makes us a target. They want what we have, and if they can't have it they don't want us to have it. We also are high profile targets. You get the most airtime when you hit us. We are also looked upon by many Muslims as evil and living outside the laws of god, and for that we should be punished. This not to say that Muslims are the target, but to say there is a mind set in these countries, that says we are poor because they are rich, we are without a future as long as they are there, and we know the true path to god and they don't. They feel justified in all their actions as much as we feel justified in ours. The people of Iraq are as proud as we are. Many don't want to fight us but they hold these feelings towards us and it ends up being easy for them to feel sympathy for terrorist and countries that stand against us.
We won't have peace on our terms unless we defend it. It is hard to see how Iraq can be a threat to me personally, but this is not about one individual, it is about how they affect us on a global scale. Oil, trade, and travel are important to Americans, their families, and our economy. Every American will be affected in some manner if these things are not protected. Some will die, and others will simply be put out of a job.
KILL EM' ALL. LET GOD SORT EM' OUT. We should have turned that place into a parking lot a long time ago. I know it sounds awfull. Do I really care for the human life in the middle east .. NO I don't. I care about the human life over here only. Call it shallow or whatever you want, but i say f*#k everyone else.
OK let the ranting begin :-X
i dont have a whole lot of time to post... so i'll keep this short for now...
QuotePlease refer to the man as PRESIDENT Bush. .
i would have, but when you make a poll, there is a limit of 50 characters per option. i had put in "Mr. Bush" (which is fairly respectful, right?) but it wasnt having that.... so just Bush had to do.
i agree that something must be done about Saddam, but the way our president is going about it reminds me of some cheesy cowboy movie. bush seems to me just to be a pawn in some grand political sceme conjured up by his father and the other republicans. this isnt the humanitarian war that bush is trying to make this out to be. it's politics, pure and simple. as for being a pawn, i think Mr. Bushis perfectly happy to be used. his name gets added to a list of US presidents who started wars, and he gets to play the cowboy, coming out with his guns blazing..just a few months ago, we were all upset about how Saddam wouldnt comply wth the UN and their policies. and yet now, when the UN doesnt agree with us or comply with our wishes, we feel that we can go off and do whatever and say "Screw the UN" i dont know why, but i find i problem with that. if we feel that we can just run around trying to get others to comply with the UN, and when something they decide to do doesnt agree with us just turn our backs on it, why not leave it entirely?
QuoteKILL EM' ALL. LET GOD SORT EM' OUT. We should have turned that place into a parking lot a long time ago. I know it
sounds awfull. Do I really care for the human life in the middle east .. NO I don't. I care about the human life over here
only. Call it shallow or whatever you want, but i say f*#k everyone else.
OK let the ranting begin
umm...wow.... yeah, let the flaming begin.... :o
-jen
Sooo much to learn, so much to learn.....
How can you agree that "something needs to be done" but not have a solution???
OK, peaceniks argue, how about UN mandates, diplomatic pressure, economic sanctions, and covert activity.
We've done that for 12 years
It's been 12 years since my generation went in and kicked Saddam out of Kuwait. Do you know how many days he had to disarm under the terms of the surrender agreement he signed?
45 days!
Has there been ANYONE in the rest of the world that has been willing to stand up and say Saddam has disarmed and abided by terms of his own agreement? No is the answer.
OK, misguided peaceniks say next , what about all the innocent lives that will be lost due to a war?
The 1991 Kuwait-Iraq conflict resulted in an estimated 60-120 thousand dead Iraqis, mostly military. Let's take the high figure and say 120 thousand more dead Iraqis. Granted, that is inhumanly brutal :'(, but lets get past that just for a second.
Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could easily be 200,000.
Let's see, so by invading and deposing Saddam, we are saving Iraqi lives who would otherwise be disposed of by Saddam's secret police (200K - 120K) = 80k saved Iraqis
Other benefits:
1) Ridding the Middle East of a megalomaniac dictator who has WMD and a history of using them
2) Freeing normal Iraqi's from his dictatorship.
3) Strangling a source of terrorist resources.
The problem with the current anti-war crowd is they don't have solutions, only protests and the protests do not hold up to a factual analysis.
Quotei agree that something must be done about Saddam, but the way our president is going about it reminds me of some cheesy cowboy movie. bush seems to me just to be a pawn in some grand political sceme conjured up by his father and the other republicans. this isnt the humanitarian war that bush is trying to make this out to be. it's politics, pure and simple. as for being a pawn, i think Mr. Bushis perfectly happy to be used. his name gets added to a list of US presidents who started wars, and he gets to play the cowboy, coming out with his guns blazing..just a few months ago, we were all upset about how Saddam wouldnt comply wth the UN and their policies. and yet now, when the UN doesnt agree with us or comply with our wishes, we feel that we can go off and do whatever and say "Screw the UN" i dont know why, but i find i problem with that. if we feel that we can just run around trying to get others to comply with the UN, and when something they decide to do doesnt agree with us just turn our backs on it, why not leave it entirely?
umm...wow.... yeah, let the flaming begin.... :o
-jen
The other presidents that started wars were Democrats, weren't they?
So, this is not a political issue, is it? If it is, you need to make your case.
Humanitarian? Five thousand Iraqi's killed in a chemical attack. That's unpresidented for someone to do that. I have some military background, and the thing that completely scared me...chemical and biological weapons. The earliest development of them was in the American Civil war, and they were used briefly in WWI by Germany and France, I believe. It is an unbelievebly horrible way to inflict death and injury upon someone. It creates the biggest fear and the most terror.
I feel that there will be some Iraqi's that will use chemical weapons, and with their poor skill, they will probably kill more Iraqi's than Allied forces. The result will be awful.
We probably should have acted further than we did in 1991 in the interest of humanitarian interests. Again, further war would have resulted in long lasting peace. Now we do have to finish what was not finished the first time.
As for "screw the UN", just take that as a bit of slang. The UN sure is a lot of talk. It would be different if they would just yell, but, face it, the dog has no bite. If you can't back up anything you say, then I don't think you belong in the kitchen.
"Walk softly and carry a big stick..." I think that was put well. It's not that you need to use the stick, but at least if you say something you should be able to back up what you say. The UN is useless. Show me otherwise.
TreyBone...I understand, but it doesn't work that way. A SOLDIER would never think that way. I have that in caps for a reason, because there are differeces among those who serve. There are some that are motivated by simple ideas, and the others that are SOLDIERS that are motivated by serving God, Country, the People, and the Consitution.
I support President Bush in whatever he feels is necessary to complete the job of ousting "The Butcher of Baghdad".
I only hope they go in and get out quickly and not keep our troops over there for a lengthy occupation.
To do that will mean a lot of our soldiers dying at the hands of terrorists after the "war" is over.
This war will hit close to home as my wife is a rating specialist for the Veteran's Administration (she determines what percentage of disability the vet has suffered for purposes of the vet collecting disability benefits) and she will be working with the files of the dead and wounded from this conflict. As well as all the Gulf War, Vietnam, Korea and WWII vets she handles now. There are days that really take a toll on her psyche from dealing with some very tragically wounded soldiers. Even though she deals with the tragedy of war she still supports the U.S right to protect it's citizens and the rest of the world from tyrants like Hussein.
I come from a family of veterans(Dad-WWII, brother-Vietnam, me-Vietnam era but served in Korea) we all proudly served our country with no regrets.
God Bless all the troops and I hope they are home and safe soon.
Trey,
I understand your thinking, so my question to you is - Are you ready to join up? Words are easy to say. But you have that freedom to say what you feel as everyone does on this thread. Just keep in mind FREEDOM is not free.
There are thousand of men and women who protect our freedoms everday. Most people don't take the time to think about them. I support any action that the Commander in Chief takes for I don't have that luxtury. I've been serving in the United States Navy now for 13 years. My first tour of duty with the Marines in an infantry Battalion during Desert Shield/Storm. War is not glamorious, but sometimes it is necessary. Watching your fellow Marines die in your arms is not what you think of. But, this is the price some pay for our country and for other countries. We are the only world power it seems to me and with that comes alot of responsiblity. We need to come together as a nation and support our country and its decisions. You don't have to agree or disagree. There is a difference.
HM1(FMF) Anthony Lambert
USN CCS MW AM#131
QuoteTrey,
I understand your thinking, so my question to you is - Are you ready to join up? Words are easy to say. But you have that freedom to say what you feel as everyone does on this thread. Just keep in mind FREEDOM is not free.
I know I wouldn't. I don't have the nuts to stick my neck out there voluntarily. Plus I don't deal very well with the kind of authority you have to put up with in the military (people barking orders and all.) That's why I support our troops.. they're fighting for my arse!
hmm... this is exactly what i did not want, a
political debate. i was just curious about others opinions.... i didnt think i would get such heated, angry responses.... eesh...you all couldnt just take the innocent little poll could ya ::) lol
see, super dave and everyone else, i never said war was wrong, i just said that the way we are going about it right now is (IMHO) wrong and undemocratic. i have no solutions to this, and i never said that i did. but, you know, there has to be a reason why all the other members of the UN
besides France, Germany and Russia (since they have "financial stakes" in Saddam) dont support the US (Turkey doesnt really count since they are just cooperating in order to join the UN).
and the funny thing is, i never said anything in my 2nd post about humanitarianism... i was too shocked to even voice any response to trey bone. i want even gonna touch that with a ten foot pole. but, it is sad that some people can feel like that towards a large group of people who (at least the vast majority) are innocent and just trying to survive. but that's just my $.02.
i'm certainly not out to change any views. everyone here (including me) is too firm in our beliefs to change them. i dont have to defend myself here (i do enough of that at home (a stubborn liberal in a conservative household doesnt work out too well)) and neither do you. so, for now, i think we should agree to disagree, as no one's wiews will change from any of this.
QuoteThe other presidents that started wars were Democrats, weren't they?
oh... BTW Super Save, Lincoln was a Republican (the Civil War), McKinley was a Republican ( the Spanish-American War) and so is Mr. Bush Sr. (the Gulf War)
hmmm.... peacenik... i had never thought to call myself that... but if the shoe fits, wear it proudly. there's no shame in having a different opinion (especially when you can defend yourself).
well, i think i've caused enough trouble now...
- jen the peacenik
Quotei agree that something must be done about Saddam, but the way our president is going about it reminds me of some cheesy cowboy movie. bush seems to me just to be a pawn in some grand political sceme conjured up by his father and the other republicans. this isnt the humanitarian war that bush is trying to make this out to be. it's politics, pure and simple. as for being a pawn, i think Mr. Bushis perfectly happy to be used. his name gets added to a list of US presidents who started wars, and he gets to play the cowboy, coming out with his guns blazing..just a few months ago, we were all upset about how Saddam wouldnt comply wth the UN and their policies. and yet now, when the UN doesnt agree with us or comply with our wishes, we feel that we can go off and do whatever and say "Screw the UN" i dont know why, but i find i problem with that. if we feel that we can just run around trying to get others to comply with the UN, and when something they decide to do doesnt agree with us just turn our backs on it, why not leave it entirely?
umm...wow.... yeah, let the flaming begin.... :o
-jen
I dealt with this subject of Presidents whom have been in office during wars on another message board last year. After some digging I was able to find a website that had all the Presidents divide into groups based on things that happened during their term(s). What I found was that the absolute majority of Presidents that were in office at the time of a war were NOT re-elected! The risk of going to war during a Presidential term is that you almost definately will not be in office next term. Knowing this, a President must be absolutely for sure that he is willing to commit occupational suicide for what ever it is that he wants to fight for.
So one day your home alone outside in your yard on a beautiful summer day just soaking up the nice day. You notice that your next door neighbor has left their dog outside for the day hooked to the dog run, while they are off at work. You really like this dog and have become quite fond of her because she is so nice, so you decide to go play with her. You play with her for a little bit and then go back to your yard and just keep soaking up the day. A little bit later you noticed a few high school kids walking down the road in front of your neighbors house. When they see your neighbors' dog they stop and turn to go up to her, she's wagging her tail all excited that she has some visitors. As they approach her you notice the one kid pick up a short branch that had fallen out of the tree, now she is really excited cause she gets to go fetch the stick when the boy throws it. The boy gets up to her, curls his arm back with the stick, and swings the stick forward and hits her right in the face with it. His buddies are laughing and cheering him on to do it again so he takes another swing and this time she runs to the other end of her dog run. The kids chase her to the end and one of them grabs her cable, prohibiting her from fleeing, and the other boy begins beating her and kicking her, all to the enjoyment of the kids, as you stand there horrified at what you are seeing. She is yelping in pain and now laying on the ground when one of the kids sees you standing there, all alone, watching them. The kids stop beating her and say to you that if you say anything to anyone, they know where you live and will come back for you! After the kids leave you go over to her, laying on the ground, bleeding badly from the face as she takes her last breaths of air, then she dies right there in front of you. What do you do?
The U.N. has witnessed the acts of horror that Saddam has done and they still want to continue to look the other way. He has had 12 YEARS to comply, I wouldn't exactly call that jumping into this by the U.S.. We have all heard of the acts Saddam and his followers have done to the innocent and his desires to obtain Nuclear weapons.
So in both these examples of horrible acts what would you do? Look the other way?
Here's an answer more in keeping with Pit girl's original question. Rhiannon, maybe Kevin, Phil Bresnahan the corner worker, and many of my other friends will be going off to war soon. I absolutely HATE that. If even one of those precious people is hurt or killed, life will never be the same. These are some of my very closest friends, and I can't even imagine losing them. I saw Rhiannon have a very high-speed fall last summer, and I nearly died. She got up perfectly fine, but I wasn't OK for two days.
So I hate war. People die; good people on both sides.
This war has to happen. Saddam's resume reads like he's applying for the job of Adolf Hitler. He's gotta go. Last time a guy like him was given too much slack, Europe had to be turned into a smoking hole in the ground to solve the problem. Twelve years is a long time to disarm. Instead, he's been rearming and hiding the weapons. Gosh. didn't Germany do that after WW1? We let it go, and what was the result? WW2. People who protest the war are obviously blind to this simple bit of history. Saddam has been doing his thing for so long that he's made it clear he will do what he wants until he dies of old age. My cousin was at risk in the Gulf War. I was pissed that we didn't finish the job then. People have said that the job was to liberate Quaite, and that we accomplished this. OK, but that's like putting out the flaming curtians but not bothering to unplug the faulty space heater that ignigted them.
Final talley? I HATE WAR, because it riskes people's lives for bull$#it. There's not even a trophy involved. ;D But I think our president is doing the unplesant chores that many others before him have avoided, and that this war is necessary.
Too bad we can't just snipe the bastige, along with his sons, and be done with it.
One last thought. I was hanging out with Phil the other day, and he casually mentioned that he had willed his ZX11 to me. How did that make me feel? He's been my best friend since High School. Would I take his bike? Hell yes, if it was the only piece of him that I had left. But I'd give up motorcycles to not lose him, and anyone who knows me knows what a serious statement that is, coming from me.
Quotehmm... this is exactly what i did not want, a political debate. i was just curious about others opinions.... i didnt think i would get such heated, angry responses.... eesh...you all couldnt just take the innocent little poll could ya ::) lol
The poll didn't work for me...so...I had to make a statement. ;D
I didn't think anyone was being angry, did you?
Quoteoh... BTW Super Save, Lincoln was a Republican (the Civil War), McKinley was a Republican ( the Spanish-American War) and so is Mr. Bush Sr. (the Gulf War)
WWI - Wilson
WWII - FDR
Korea - Truman
Vietnam - LBJ
I think that covers the big ones in current history. ;D
As for this war having to do with politics, I do feel as though that's like comparing law and morality. There are a whole lot of issues where it is just "right" to do this. Right for the people of Iraq, right for the Middle east, and right for the safety of the world. Would you disagree?
If twelve years of diplomacy isn't enough, how much is?
There are no right or wrong answers, Jen. We're not baggin' on ya or anything, but... if you can make a statement, you've got to put some teeth behind it too.
I was against the Persian Gulf War (did I say that earlier?). I see no way around this one. It is the thing to do, and it must be done.
Don't roll over, Jen!
Quotei'm certainly not out to change any views. everyone here (including me) is too firm in our beliefs to change them. i dont have to defend myself here (i do enough of that at home (a stubborn liberal in a conservative household doesnt work out too well)) and neither do you. so, for now, i think we should agree to disagree, as no one's wiews will change from any of this.
In politics, in my experience, it is the liberal side that attacks the conservative side, personally. George Bush is a moron, he can't talk, blah, blah, blah. But if you bring up the issue of Bill Clinton's documented affairs, his documented pardoning of fellons, etc...suddenly you're attacking him personally. If it only worked both ways.
No, there is no reason to defend yourself. We're not attacking you. We're trying to understand the other side. Don't open the book to us and show us the chapters' names. Tell us about what you think. Feed it to us so we can understand. I think were making cases.
Would anyone change their mind? Probably not, but the exchange of information is outstanding.
And besides, this is fun and healthy, right!
QuoteWWI - Wilson
WWII - FDR
Korea - Truman
Vietnam - LB
not to get too specific, but i did say presidents who started wars.... Wilson didnt start WW1, we just joined it a few months before it was over... FDR didnt start WW2, once again, we joined it after it had started.... and Korea was a UN action, Truman volunteered troops to help... (AP history worked for me! lol ) not to be too specific though. :)
i agree Super Dave, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate, but this definately was not my intent with the poll ;) the reason i wanted started the poll was that the school i attend is very liberal, having anti-war protest days and after school discussions and debates on this subject, so i just wanted to get some other feedback....
as for Clinton, yes, he ceratinly has his faults, we all do. I am probably one of the first ones who would tell you that. after all, he did loose the codes for the nulcear weapons (but it was on the day the monica lewinsky scandal broke, so cut the guy some slack) and he did let Ossama Bin Laden go... but look what he did for our economy... right now, that's more than Mr. Bush can say :)
dont worry all you guys, i'm not angry... not in the least (and i never have been :) ) actually i'm a little bit amused.... nothing wrong in the least with healthy political debate :)
good luck, safe journey, and godspeed to all the troops.
-jen
I have lived in a military town all of my life (Fayetteville NC - Fort Bragg) I have a lot of friends that are over their right now and they still email me frequently. Do i want to volantarily join? NO... do I support our country and our troops YES. I am sucessful business owner in our community and sell quite a bit of product to the military. I support them, and they support me. Saddam doesn't support $hit to me or america so screw him his govenment.
Quoteas for Clinton, yes, he ceratinly has his faults, we all do. I am probably one of the first ones who would tell you that. after all, he did loose the codes for the nulcear weapons (but it was on the day the monica lewinsky scandal broke, so cut the guy some slack) and he did let Ossama Bin Laden go... but look what he did for our economy... right now, that's more than Mr. Bush can say :) -jen
This subject is so similar to a debate that went on for a while on another message board last summer, so I remember alot of the info that I researched on that debate.
The problems I see with what you are saying comparing President Bush to former President Clinton (Republican vs. Democrat) are somewhat unbalanced. There are some things that Clinton did to generate an immediate economy boost that he was being told by his advisors was very unwise due to the long term effects of those actions, but he did it anyway to make himself look good then. Back in the middle 90's I remember seeing government analysts on TV talking about how the next President following Clinton (no matter who it was) will be faced with a collapsing economy. Not only did this happen but it happened during the last 2 years of Clintons Presidency, as shown by graphs representing the economy over the last 20 years. If you check you will also find that gas prices were $2+ per gallon during that time and were cut almost in half during the first year of Bush's term.
Another fact about Clintons economy boosting was that he went on a military reducing spree. In ALL of history no President of the U.S. has ever weekend our military as much as Clinton did (not only the largest dollar amount reduction but also the highest percentage reduction of our militaries size). He closed down 100's of bases around the world and reduced military spending by millions per week, which he bragged about to the American people. What the average U.S. citizen didn't know was that those millions per week averaged out to about a $1.86 savings per worker in the U.S. per week! I saw a program on the Discovery Channel back in the late 90's that was dealing with our militaries current strength. Top official after top official in our military said on that program that because Clinton had weakend our military so much, if we were attacked directly we would not be able to defend ourselves adaquately for any period of time. Some of the very first things Bush did when getting into office were to start the 'Missle Shield' program, increase military spending in order to restrengthen it, and issue everyone an extra tax refund.
Another little trick Clinton used to make himself look good was to LOWER the length of time you can recieve unemployment benefits (actually cut in half the amount of time you can collect and the total number of times). Unknown to many people is the fact that unemployment #'s are calculated by the actual number of people collecting benefits at that time. Therefore once off unemployment compensation you are no longer statistically considered unemployed. Clinton used this to his advantage by comparing the unemployment #'s during his term to Presidents in the past like Reagan, who at that time had more than twice the length of time worth of unemployed collecting at once.
After being handed a collapsing economy by Clinton, Bush was also faced with the whole 9-11 tragedy. I can only imagine how Gore would have reacted to those situations and what kind of mess we would truely be in currently had he been President currently.
I am not angry with you or anything like that, I am just telling the facts as I know them to be. I think debates such as this often times will bring out things on both sides that people previously were unaware of.
I have tried to stay out of this one. It is always difficult to discuss an issue as important as the possibility of war in this type of forum. But a statement posted by Pit Girl has forced me to break my silence. "... but look what he did for our economy... " when refering to Clinton is a foolish and uneducated statement. First year clollege economics teaches that the person in the whitehouse has little, if anything to do whth the economy. The economy is based on supply, demand, technology, etc. While Gore jokingly stated that he "invented the internet" it should be obvious that during the 90's the United States would have shown economic prosperity regardless of the political affiliation of the president. Let's not forget that much of that prosperity was lost when companies were caught disclosing false profits and that the failure of many dot com companies resulted from a lack of a viable product. Race girl, don't be so superficial in your thoughts regarding our nation's economy as to think that it is as easy as electing a Democrat to the White House.
Rich
see, i guess the thing is that your perception of a presidents influence on the economy all depends on who you are and how you look at things. it is also important to remember that i was 7 when clinton was elected, and school history classes only cover up to the 1970s, so i and many others of my generation have different views on things because either we have a different view on things or we simply dont know a whole lot about the 80's and early 90's. so what this all comes down to is generation gap, plain and simple.
looks fellas (and ladies ;)) i think i am done with politics on this board.... this is exactly what i didnt want to have when i started that poll, so it's time for me to duck out and make my exit.
Back to racing!! ;D
(Pit_Girl Bows, and Exits stage right)
-Jen
I say we kick ass and take names like we should've done 12 years ago. Shouldn't take long. Most of his troops probably hate him anyways and when they find out they can have their own money and food, etc, with that piece of shit gone, they'll just thrown down their weapons and be thankful he's gone. Go USA!
Saddam is evil and should be dealt with. However... who made President Bush king of the world? Why can't the Middle East take care of this itself? Will this declaration of war lead to terrorist acts from other factions? What about Korea? It's not that simple. I'll go wherever I'm told to go. I just hope it doesn't create more problems than it fixes.
QuoteSaddam is evil and should be dealt with. However... who made President Bush king of the world? Why can't the Middle East take care of this itself? Will this declaration of war lead to terrorist acts from other factions? What about Korea? It's not that simple. I'll go wherever I'm told to go. I just hope it doesn't create more problems than it fixes.
right on KC !!!
Normally I don't get into political discussions unless I am face to face with the person, but I am just going to add my $0.02 on this subject.
Pit_Girl - It is good to see you take and interest in the is subject and be open to discussion. Most people on the board will offer their opinion and will actually talk to you with out "talking-down" to you or whomever the conversation is with. Thanks to everyone for that.
Saddam is an evil man. I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that subject. For years the world has tried to deal with him through diplomatic channels, but nothing seems to work. There comes a point in time where stronger and more drastic measures are needed. This is that time. I truly believe that if he is allowed to remain in power, we may have another 'Hitler' on our hands.
Why us, the USA, - why are we the ones to take action? Simply because we have the power and might to. Do I like war? No, I abhor it. But sometimes that is the only recourse.
I support our troops and wish them and their families the best.
Dawn
War is never good, but sometimes it's the only way to go.
I started my career in the military during Vietnam and ended it during Desert Storm. There was many times that I wished I didn't have to go. But, if it makes the world a better, safer place then it needs to be done.
I too know many of the troops deployed in that area of the world right now, and I wish them a safe return.
Mike, 20+ years in the USAF
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fireblades.org%2Ftigerblade%2Fimages%2Fpatriot.gif&hash=44984030c7cdbe97e6a5f43b96cd0d4921703977) (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fireblades.org%2Ftigerblade%2Fimages%2Fpatriot.gif&hash=44984030c7cdbe97e6a5f43b96cd0d4921703977) (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fireblades.org%2Ftigerblade%2Fimages%2Fpatriot.gif&hash=44984030c7cdbe97e6a5f43b96cd0d4921703977)
Chris ........
Final talley? I HATE WAR, because it riskes people's lives for bull$#it.
You call your freedom bullsh*t? Yes people die in wars but I must say the Americans who have died during the entire existence of this country have not died for bullsh*t. They have not died in vain!
Quotesee, i guess the thing is that your perception of a presidents influence on the economy all depends on who you are and how you look at things. it is also important to remember that i was 7 when clinton was elected, and school history classes only cover up to the 1970s, so i and many others of my generation have different views on things because either we have a different view on things or we simply dont know a whole lot about the 80's and early 90's. so what this all comes down to is generation gap, plain and simple.
The president has some influence, sure. But a whole lot of us here are business owners. We have quite a bit on influence, too. If the US didn't have businesses, there would be NOTHING! No jobs, no money, no support.
If there were no goverment, well, we'd still go on. Without a president.
The economy was in decline by 1991. I think it has been shown that Clinton was just riding the last wave in. Bush is having to rebuild what the previous years of government DIDN'T take responsibility for. And that goes for the Republicans and Democrats. (I am rather apolitical, myself, although I do have some opinions. I register as a Libertarian.)
A mouse looked through a crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife opening a package; what food might it contain? He was aghast to discover that it was a mouse trap!
Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning, "There is a mouse trap in the house, there is a mouse trap in the house."
The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, "Mr. Mouse, I can tell you this is a grave concern to you, but it is of no consequence to me; I cannot be bothered by it."
The mouse turned to the pig and told him, "There is a mouse trap in the house."
"I am so very sorry Mr. Mouse," sympathized the pig, "but there is nothing I can do about it but pray; be assured that you are in my prayers."
The mouse turned to the cow, who replied, "Like wow, Mr. Mouse, a mouse trap; am I in grave danger, Duh?"
So the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected to face the farmer's mouse trap alone.
That very night a sound was heard throughout the house, like the sound of a mouse trap catching its prey. The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught.
In the darkness, she did not see that it was a venomous snake whose tail the trap had caught.
The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital. She returned home with a fever. Now everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient.
His wife's sickness continued so that friends and neighbors came to sit with her around the clock. To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.
The farmer's wife did not get well, in fact, she died, and so many people came for her funeral the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide meat for all of them to eat.
So the next time you hear that someone is facing a problem and think that it does not concern you, remember that when the least of us is threatened, we are all at risk.
****** And so it may be with Germany, France and Belgium one day******
QuoteHere's my question...
Can anyone give me a good reason why Saddam and his gang of thugs should be left in power?
I am still waiting for those who did not support the war to give an answer on this.
It could be that, "He was the ruler of a soverign nation," or anything. But I would appreciate a response.
QuoteAs for this war having to do with politics, I do feel as though that's like comparing law and morality. There are a whole lot of issues where it is just "right" to do this. Right for the people of Iraq, right for the Middle east, and right for the safety of the world. Would you disagree?
If twelve years of diplomacy isn't enough, how much is?
In hind sight? Was it right, people? In a matter of days, much was accomplished.
How many people died during the "peace" that was the twelve years of diplomatic solutions?
QuoteSaddam is evil and should be dealt with. However... who made President Bush king of the world? Why can't the Middle East take care of this itself? Will this declaration of war lead to terrorist acts from other factions? What about Korea? It's not that simple. I'll go wherever I'm told to go. I just hope it doesn't create more problems than it fixes.
Looks like the North Korean's have backed down because President Bush and his people were willing to sacrifice their political longevity to do what was right in Iraq.
Acts of terrorism? Well, we found terrorist camps in Iraq? How about the leader of the terrorists that killed the wheel chair bound Jewish American man on that cruise ship. Gee, he was found in Baghdad.
Now, Syria is cooperating, and Iraqi's CAN protest in Iraq.
Quotenot to get too specific, but i did say presidents who started wars.... Wilson didnt start WW1, we just joined it a few months before it was over... FDR didnt start WW2, once again, we joined it after it had started.... and Korea was a UN action, Truman volunteered troops to help... (AP history worked for me! lol ) not to be too specific though. :)
OOPS, I missed this one.
None of these presidents
started the said wars, but they were full participants. Wilson was fully aware of what was going on. The United States was able to actually supply both sides with supplies early in the war. Without General John J Pershing and the American Expeditionary Forces under OUR command, it would have went on until when ever. We finished it.
FDR... there is debate whether Japan was manuvered into attacking us at Pearl Harbor. Regardless, we were involved in the effort. Flying Tigers in China, support to allied countries.
Korea... A UN action... Because we told them to and Russia did nothing to block it in the UN...a curious question all on it's own.
Regardless, all of these presidents had the opportunity to deal with the issues diplomatically. However, in the interest of peace, war offered the best opportunity for peace.
Ass-kicking by the US...good. Saddam and terrorists...bad.