It's coming to light that a team raced a 750 in the 600 class and earned a podium in Team Challenge and also raced in the GTU as well -before the sham is exposed.
WTF ?!
Cheaters suck!
wheres my popcorn emoticon..
Don't they dyno in those races?
Turns out (from an anonymous reliable eyewitness source) the owner cheated with his armband too! He had a nesba band flipped over and colored green.
(double) WTF ?!
(btw - I am @ RA)
(video of the cheater 750 in action will be posted later)
Quote from: aflaim on July 05, 2008, 01:39:25 PM
Don't they dyno in those races?
not team challenge...
QuoteOriginally it was thought the Team Appel entry was the winner but closer inspection after the event showed their Suzuki was not legal for the class and they were removed from the results.
http://www.ccsracing.us/
Front page news. Not like it's a secret. :blahblah:
Why would somebody do that?? :wtf: I don't get it.
Because they are so cool? Dill will keep them honest.
And they still got to race? I'm thinking harsher penalties would be more appropriate.
Sponsored by NESBA
I want to believe the best of people and I am hoping this is an innocent mistake; however, I have a really hard time understanding how this could be innocent. The people involved have been around bikes and the track for a number of years (I know that I have seen them racing with CCS for all 3 years that I have lived in this region) so it is hard to see how they don't understand that 750's are not legal for GTU class races...
Perhaps one of the parties involved will post some sort of an explanation and apology.
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on July 07, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
I want to believe the best of people and I am hoping this is an innocent mistake; however, I have a really hard time understanding how this could be innocent. The people involved have been around bikes and the track for a number of years (I know that I have seen them racing with CCS for all 3 years that I have lived in this region) so it is hard to see how they don't understand that 750's are not legal for GTU class races...
Perhaps one of the parties involved will post some sort of an explanation and apology.
George
how do you explain "i stuffed a 750 in a 600" ??? ...by accident ??? shame! shame! apparently winning is most important
I don't know the whole story and don't wanna spread any information that might not be accurate so I'll just say this... Melissa and Alan are great people and in no way need to cheat to go fast and get results. I've been hanging around with them for years and honest can't believe that they actually intended to cheat. Regardless of anyones intentions though, if the bike was illegal then it's only fair to get the situation straightened out, get pulled from results and make sure they race in the proper class next time. Like George said though, I'd hate to see people get too judgmental to quickly without at least hearing their side
how you do put a 750 in a 600? easy, they come that way factory! LOL
Maybe somebody said it was a Twin. :lmao:
Quote from: George_Linhart on July 07, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
I want to believe the best of people and I am hoping this is an innocent mistake; however, I have a really hard time understanding how this could be innocent. The people involved have been around bikes and the track for a number of years (I know that I have seen them racing with CCS for all 3 years that I have lived in this region) so it is hard to see how they don't understand that 750's are not legal for GTU class races...
Perhaps one of the parties involved will post some sort of an explanation and apology.
George
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the apology. They obviously thought they would get away with it. What a great way to represent their organisation. I have never been a NESBA brasher, and I would not even associate them with NESBA under normal circumstances, but they are control riders for the organisation. The individuals decided to cheat, not NESBA. They obviously are too selfish to even stop and think that their actions might just reflect poorly on NESBA.
With that being said, I have always bashed cheaters, and that is exactly what they are, DIRTY ROTTEN CHEATERS!!!! There are allot of good teams that spend allot of money to compeat and hopefully finish well. This sort of action just plain pisses me off. How could you possibly feel any satisfaction about your performance on the track when you did not actually earn your finishing position? You two are just scum in my eyes. When they were doing your interview and they asked you what advice you would give to other teams to finish well and you guys cutely said "A bright paint job and some stars" you forgot to mention "and 750cc engine".
It really is sad because both of you are actually talented riders, you probably could have finshed quite well on your own merits. Now none of that matters, because now you are just miserable cheaters.
As Jon, I don't know the whole story.
I do know Melissa and Alan.
They are good, quality people and hell fast riders.
Please, don't judge before getting all the facts.
I hope this issue is cleared up soon.
Hernan
#619 AM
Quote from: hernan52 on July 07, 2008, 06:05:55 PM
As Jon, I don't know the whole story.
I do know Melissa and Alan.
They are good, quality people and hell fast riders.
Please, don't judge before getting all the facts.
I hope this issue is cleared up soon.
Hernan
#619 AM
I did my research before I typed. They may very well be nice people but make no mistake, they are cheaters. The best they can do is make up reasons to justify thier actions.
Guy
Bitter much?
Some people make mistakes. Until you hear their side to assume things is a bit silly.
As Jon and Hernan stated, I as well do not know the whole story but can echo their sentiment that Melissa and Alan are good people. Alan is one of the most humble and grounded people you will ever meet in your life, he is not one to tout his accomplishments, whether past or present, and he certainly doesn't strike me as a person that would cheat to win.
Guy, I can tell that you are angry from the words you have posted...but I do take issue with you saying that you have done your research. If you have talked to CCS officials or other involved parties but NOT to Alan and Melissa then you have not done all your research. I know that in your mind you have decided that they are cheaters but please let others form their own opinions and conclusions. If you are comfortable with judging others without having spoken to them, then so be it, but I can point to numerous people that have been convicted (without a shadow of a doubt mind you) in a court of law and then subsequently been released because they were falsely imprisoned for a crime they didn't commit, at least they had the opportunity to defend themselves in court before being convicted and judged.
I plan on following these wise words.....
"A true judge is one who seeks the truth. If you must judge, be sure and get all the facts. A Japanese proverb says to "search seven times before you judge."
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:1-2)
I met them a few times at nesba events, like most people there they were nice enough.
actually Alan once explained to me that in order to go fast you need to twist the throttle!
jokes aside I'm sure this situation has a simple explanation.
I would love to here the explanation/excuse.
please tell me how the hell they didn't know the engine was 750cc's. Are they nice, but stupid?
This isn't a question about how "nice" of people they are. Enough with the character statements. This is about the facts....period.
I know I don't mean much being slow laptraffic and not knowing either of these people and what they did, did not effect me that weekend but I can say I am sick of people not playing fairly. I don't know them but for as fast as they are you think they would know the rules or have enough people, friends, pit crew members that knew the rules. It's sad but I watched an Expert go out in a SS race on slick and after the race I brought it up to someone and they said well he was in last place so it didn't help him. I have seen people post things about their bikes on other forums that make them not legal for SS and they race them and place top 3 but noone knows and I am sure people at the track think they are great guys. This makes me think twice about racing next year. People wouldn't miss me out there but if all backmarkers and lap traffic riders leave what will be left.
Quote from: Firecat on July 07, 2008, 07:43:20 PMI can point to numerous people that have been convicted (without a shadow of a doubt mind you) in a court of law and then subsequently been released because they were falsely imprisoned for a crime they didn't commit, at least they had the opportunity to defend themselves in court before being convicted and judged.
Don't forget they really ran a 750cc and that is what they are accused of. You are talking about people that didn't really do what they are accused of.... which is different.
There can be no honor, and no satisfaction in cheating to win.
PS. Mongo, Guy Bartz is a class act and a stand up guy, as is his teammate Ed Key. Bitter? No. But disgusted at those who cheat and take cheap short cuts to compete with an unfair advantage, while the rest of us play by the rules? Hell yes! As we all should be.
Innocent mistake my butt. I have both a GSXR600 and 750 and there is no mistaking which is which. I was in both TC and GTU (on my 600) and it was VERY obvious she was on a 750. In the first few laps I could close on her through Canada, 13 and 14 and then she would WALK away up the straight.
When I roasted the clutch in my 600 I was going to sit out the rest of my MW races when I guess I could have just jumped on my 750 and raced away. Ultimately I sourced a new clutch and made my other MW stuff. I think they are cheating sacks of .........
The CCS officials near my pits had other interesting stories about that gang flipping their NESBA armbands around and coloring them green with magic markers to try to keep from having to buy CCS armbands. Nice crew there. I'm sure they are proud pf themselves and the example they set.
-BK
Quote from: George_Linhart on July 07, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
I want to believe the best of people and I am hoping this is an innocent mistake; however, I have a really hard time understanding how this could be innocent. The people involved have been around bikes and the track for a number of years (I know that I have seen them racing with CCS for all 3 years that I have lived in this region) so it is hard to see how they don't understand that 750's are not legal for GTU class races...
Perhaps one of the parties involved will post some sort of an explanation and apology.
George
I ran 2nd in the GTU TC for the first half of the race and by all means you're pretty right with the fact that she wouldn't need to cheat. Not only quick but has endurance too.
As for being naive, just a plain old mistake or even cheating I'm just glad that the error was corrected. Helped Wemmer's pink gsxr600 get one more spot up.
Quote from: Willyz on July 08, 2008, 12:07:33 AM
The CCS officials near my pits had other interesting stories about that gang flipping their NESBA armbands around and coloring them green with magic markers to try to keep from having to buy CCS armbands. Nice crew there. I'm sure they are proud pf themselves and the example they set.
-BK
I've known Alan for a long time. Nice guy, honestly. Don't know what to say about the 750 thing, really. Unexepected is all, and I would expect there to be punishment to follow.
Now, armbands?
When an individual makes the decision to take an action like that puts all of us at risk for higher insurance costs. Thanks! A person that does that should be removed completely from the racing opportunities that are supplied by the racing organization. I have no patience for that.
Imagine if something happened to them. Certainly, their families might look for compensation from the insurance provided or even look to sue the organization, the insurance, and the facility.
If the same thing were done at a NESBA event, I'd bet that Mr Blandsford's insurance might be at risk too. I really hope for all of our racing opportunities that extraordinarily severe sanctions are in place.
Quote from: Mongo on July 07, 2008, 07:41:56 PM
Bitter much?
Some people make mistakes. Until you hear their side to assume things is a bit silly.
I am not bitter at all. I was not even in the race.
Mogo, I can tell from a few of your previous posts that you certainly understand what it is like to have a strong opinion on a particular subject. I have a strong opinion on the subject of cheating. I would not have posted anything unless I was very sure of the subject matter. Fact, they were disqualified and they were removed from the race results. Fact, Guy Bartz has a strong opinion on cheating.
Let me add another one for you Guy.
Fact, once you are caught cheating everything else you do is scrutinized a little closer.
Ask any husband who is still married to the woman he cheated on.
Innocent or guilty, the question lingers.
Hmm Rick, your comment reminds me of a particular joke:
An American was backpacking across the highlands, when he came across a small village where he decided to spend the night.
Upon entering the local pub that evening for some drinks with the locals, he found himself in a conversation with one particularly drunk and indignant individual.
"Ya see that fence out there?" The old man asked the backpacker. "I built that fence with me own hands. But ya think they call me MacGregor the fence builder? No!"
"And that church out there. I hoisted the bell up to the top with me own hands. But ya think they call me MacGregor the church builder? No!"
And that bridge. I put it together stone by stone. But ya think they call me MacGregor the bridge builder? No!"
"But ya screw one goat..."
Some how, I can only think about whey protein suppliments right now...
And I though Edgar was his real name.... hum... MacGregor Dorn :biggrin:
Quote from: MotoGuy on July 08, 2008, 12:01:42 AM
There can be no honor, and no satisfaction in cheating to win.
PS. Mongo, Guy Bartz is a class act and a stand up guy, as is his teammate Ed Key. Bitter? No. But disgusted at those who cheat and take cheap short cuts to compete with an unfair advantage, while the rest of us play by the rules? Hell yes! As we all should be.
Thanks for the support!!!
I understand the strong feelings about willful cheating - I feel the same way. However until I hear both sides of a story I tend to not get all excited about something like this. I've seen racers make much much stupider mistakes than running the wrong size bike in a class.
For now as long as it was handled by the officials I really can't see getting upset unless I found out they knew what they were doing and it was just to try and get track time or actually thought they could get away with it or something like that - then I'd get pissed off too.
But I do understand your feelings, I'm just trying to get you to see that people do truly dumb things on accident a lot too.
I've entered a class by mistake before... Granted, it was an unlimited race when I wanted heavyweight, but still...
Quote from: Jeff on July 08, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
I've entered a class by mistake before... Granted, it was an unlimited race when I wanted heavyweight, but still...
My first race weekend ever I entered my SV in GTU. I didn't do to well. :ahhh: :biggrin:
Quote from: Mongo on July 08, 2008, 05:14:15 PM
I understand the strong feelings about willful cheating - I feel the same way. However until I hear both sides of a story I tend to not get all excited about something like this. I've seen racers make much much stupider mistakes than running the wrong size bike in a class.
For now as long as it was handled by the officials I really can't see getting upset unless I found out they knew what they were doing and it was just to try and get track time or actually thought they could get away with it or something like that - then I'd get pissed off too.
But I do understand your feelings, I'm just trying to get you to see that people do truly dumb things on accident a lot too.
Agreed.
I doubt they would do something like that for the track time, they are at a lot of NESBA events as it is.
Knowing the two of them, I really doubt their intentions were be deceitful.
a 600 chassis and a 750 in motor in GTU isn't deceitful?
Quote from: mattg on July 08, 2008, 05:54:17 PM
Knowing the two of them, I really doubt their intentions were be deceitful.
Sure.
Just like flipping their NESBA arm bands over and coloring the back of them green to avoid paying a gate fee wasn't deceitful.
Intent is a huge part of whether I'll call someone a cheater.
well, they intended not to pay to get in. they cheated and got caught. I believe it's as simple as that.
It's amazing the defenders of out and out cheaters here.
They knowingly and willfully entered the 750 as a 600 in TWO races for Friday, and took a podium spot, ahh that's clearly not just trying deceitfully to get tracktime; had to CHANGE all the other entries for the rest of the weekend on SAT morning (why CCS (Kevin) allowed THIS is beyond me) and one (at least) of them colored their armband in attempt to weasel out of the $40 gate fee.
Yet they are defended as honest, what part about those actions are honest? Gimmie a break. I raced them in the TC (on a 600, team MA Deuce) they're asshats for cheating plain and simple.
wow... speechless.
Well, no offense but all of this is still paddock rumors and not facts until someone directly involved posts (which is highly unlikely).
Quote from: d!ll on July 08, 2008, 08:04:47 PM
It's amazing the defenders of out and out cheaters here.
They knowingly and willfully entered the 750 as a 600 in TWO races for Friday, and took a podium spot, ahh that's clearly not just trying deceitfully to get tracktime; had to CHANGE all the other entries for the rest of the weekend on SAT morning (why CCS (Kevin) allowed THIS is beyond me) and one (at least) of them colored their armband in attempt to weasel out of the $40 gate fee.
Yet they are defended as honest, what part about those actions are honest? Gimmie a break. I raced them in the TC (on a 600, team MA Deuce) they're asshats for cheating plain and simple.
So are you saying they had that 750 entered in a bunch of MW classes?
I can almost understand entering a 750 in GTU instead of GTO, but to enter a 750 in a MW class is not cool.
They HAD their 750 entered in MULTIPLE 600 races over the whole weekend and CSS allowed them to change on SAT morning.
That's exactly what I am saying.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.thesun.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F00441%2FSNN2505GX1-280_441898a.jpg&hash=45e567de5ca3550400457e223c2c35fd49a4fc75)
Quote from: Mongo on July 08, 2008, 08:26:42 PM
Well, no offense but all of this is still paddock rumors and not facts until someone directly involved posts (which is highly unlikely).
Not to be a smart ass but I heard the
rumor from a CCS official.
I wasn't entered in the TC so I don't have a pony in this race but my personal feeling is that if you feel you have to cheat then by all means go right ahead, I'm not going to feel bad about being beaten by an illegal bike, how does it feel to win with a cheater bike? I'll never know. In the end a talented rider will be remembered but not in a favorable light.
Quote from: Bigsexy on July 08, 2008, 09:50:15 PM
are we talking about that cute little Blonde chick thats looks really good in her leathers?
Wow i hope she dosn't stop coming to the track i like looking at her.
as far as her the guy goes he can stay home.
Wow, way to turn women onto the sport ::)
On another note I never heard anything regarding the armbands over the weekend but if that part is true then man I don't even know what to think. That is pretty bad...
Quote from: Mongo on July 08, 2008, 08:26:42 PM
Well, no offense but all of this is still paddock rumors and not facts until someone directly involved posts (which is highly unlikely).
Umm it was on the ccs website that they were disqualified for having an illegal bike.
http://www.ccsracing.us/news/pressreleases/2008/070408.html
how much more hp does a 750 have vs a 600?
and which one had an flipped arm band?
I guess the real question is when they filled out the registration for the GTU what did they put down for bike description? Also what did they put down for the description for other races entered. That would answer some questions. If they put 750 then it could be a mistake but if they put 600 then it's different.
The CCS officials will always bend for well known people..... Sucks but that life.
Good questions Spooner
I just would like to see a post from a CCS official clarifying what happened both with the Friday entry and Saturday;s changes (if any)
I'm also would appreciate a confirmation of the wrist band situation.
Why are the officials not talking?
I know Guy and he is a straight shooter. I understand his outrage if he is convinced of there was foul play.
As I said in my first post, I also know Melissa and Alan and I they are good people.
For me, the jury is still out until I hear the "official" facts.
I hope they come to light soon.
Hernan
Quote from: avdigigeek on July 08, 2008, 10:19:31 PMhow much more hp does a 750 have vs a 600?
Of course it depends on what model year they each are and to what degree they've had performance work done, but the 750 having about 30 more Hp would be reasonable.
I worked Tech and Grid at RA this weekend.
I was not involved in the filing of the protest or the resulting investigation.
The politically correct thing for me to say is that most of what I know is 2nd hand - so it would be inappropriate for me to confirm/deny any part of this.
The only people who could contribute first hand information to this either do not post here or see no benefit in discussing this in a public forum.
There are 2 things that I know as facts:
1. Bike #711 was disqualified from the Team Challenge.
2. Melissa returned to Tech on Saturday morning for a new Tech sticker (to put her in a different practice group) because she had changed the class of races she was entered in.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 09, 2008, 12:40:53 AM
Of course it depends on what model year they each are and to what degree they've had performance work done, but the 750 having about 30 more Hp would be reasonable.
Mine's pretty stock, and I don't think it makes 130HP on Dynojet dyno. Does have a good amount of grunt over a 600 at the bottom end of the R's.
Quote from: hernan52 on July 09, 2008, 12:13:43 AM
I just would like to see a post from a CCS official clarifying what happened both with the Friday entry and Saturday;s changes (if any)
I'm also would appreciate a confirmation of the wrist band situation.
Why are the officials not talking?
Why would CCS comment on this? Why is it any of ANYONE's business after the scenario has been taken care of? Nobody here has a "right" to an explanation. This is between CCS and the offender(s) period.
Y'all can speculate all day long on who did what and why, but it's not going to do anyone any good. Personally I'm just glad that Kevin and other officials were made aware (or found out about) of the issue(s) and appropriately cared for them. That's it...
You want an inquisition, grab a needle and start playing MLB... Until then.....
I agree mostly, Jeff. I hope it's taken care of severely. But general deterrence is important to in addition to specific significant punishment against the actual offenders. So, I'd like to know what happens myself. Maybe at the next races it will be talked about.
Jeff is right, what happened is between CCS and the rider. We followed our protocol and proper penalties were levied and the machine was moved into classes that it was legal for. That is the same thing we would do for anyone (like all the 1000's that try to run F-40.), we just want it right so everyone plays on a level field.
The real penalty for these people comes from the fellow racers reaction, sometimes good people make bad choices and in this case they were caught, disqualified and penalized according to past precedents and our rulebook.
A second offense will result in much harsher penalties, but based on the reaction I saw, I doubt if it will ever happen again.
Thank you for your reply, Kevin. Much appreciated.
Quote from: sobottka on July 08, 2008, 06:42:27 PM
a 600 chassis and a 750 in motor in GTU isn't deceitful?
FYI 750 engine in a 750 chassis
Kevin,
Thanks for your thoughtful answer......
Hernan
Quote from: EX_#76 on July 09, 2008, 01:14:28 PM
FYI 750 engine in a 750 chassis
Hmmm, in that case my apologies to Team Appel for that comment
If I ever see that bike again in a Middleweight race I'd be pretty upset but I don't think they will be doing that again now that it's all cleared up. On another note, it's not that hard to get confused on the bikes. They look 100% identical, frame, engine cases, almost everything is identical on the bikes, and theirs happened to have 600cc forks too. If someone sold me a bike like that with a bill-of-sale only and told me it was a 600cc bike I'd take one look at the forks, see that they were 600cc colored, and believe I had a really strong 600, never thinking that it might be something else.
In fact I bought a Kawi 636 w/ the ZX6RR 600cc stickers on there and I was confused for months about whether it was a 600cc or 636cc, too lazy to look up the VIN. Finally someone pointed out that the swingarm pivot was not a RR but the regular 636 pivot.
I'm not trying to say that I know they did it on accident vs intentionally but it is another perspective, and I believe the penalties CCS imposed are completely fair for the situation.
Quote from: JonGu on July 09, 2008, 02:44:52 PM
If I ever see that bike again in a Middleweight race I'd be pretty upset but I don't think they will be doing that again now that it's all cleared up. On another note, it's not that hard to get confused on the bikes. They look 100% identical, frame, engine cases, almost everything is identical on the bikes, and theirs happened to have 600cc forks too. If someone sold me a bike like that with a bill-of-sale only and told me it was a 600cc bike I'd take one look at the forks, see that they were 600cc colored, and believe I had a really strong 600, never thinking that it might be something else.
In fact I bought a Kawi 636 w/ the ZX6RR 600cc stickers on there and I was confused for months about whether it was a 600cc or 636cc, too lazy to look up the VIN. Finally someone pointed out that the swingarm pivot was not a RR but the regular 636 pivot.
I'm not trying to say that I know they did it on accident vs intentionally but it is another perspective, and I believe the penalties CCS imposed are completely fair for the situation.
WOW :wtf: :thumb:
Quote from: Wemmer666 on July 09, 2008, 07:37:13 PM
WOW :wtf: :thumb:
Hahahahahaha I love it. OK, I know I know, a 750 vs a 600 is a wayyyyy bigger difference than a 636 vs a 600. Just trying to come up with ideas and think the best of people here.
Well, more power to you for trying! LOL
must of been the same guy that sold the green wrist band
Quick and easy way to differentiate stock GSXR 600s from 750s.
600s have silver fork sliders, 750s have gold sliders.
600s redline at 16K, 750s redline at 15K.
-BK
sure there "lots of reasons" that 600 forks might end up on a 750 - deceitfulness would be right at the top and if it wasn't I would make damn sure people knew I had a 750 w/ 600 forks so NONE of this nonsense would even get started.... but that's the thing about liars - they ain't honest.
Quote from: Nicolaus on July 09, 2008, 03:51:45 AM
Mine's pretty stock, and I don't think it makes 130HP on Dynojet dyno. Does have a good amount of grunt over a 600 at the bottom end of the R's.
My GSXR 750 is an '02 model, I bought it new in '02 and had the bike dyno-tuned that same year. My bike has the full race Yosh Duplex exhaust system, Power Commander, BMC filter, and I had it tuned with NuTec race fuel at the time - rear wheel horse was 132 on that Dyno (don't remember what type it was). The tuner told me that the 600's (at that time) with the same mod's were about 30 Hp less or so - just over the 100 Hp mark. More recently a different tuner told me that the new GSXR's with those same mod's were seeing 140+ Hp from the 750's and 110+ on the 600's, that's where I came up with the 'about 30 HP' statement. :thumb: