http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=32070
guess we will have to wait and see what happens
Wow.
Game on.
I think this is the right thing at the right time.
While it's entertaining to watch Mladin, Spies and the AMA regulars whip everyone else with their superior everything, it does get a bit less dramatic with every race being just about the same, every time, the whole season, they get out front and nobody can catch them.
No doubt their skills are top notch, but to give others at least a chance at being competitive is a good thing in my opinion.
A formula that creates a more even playing field, power to weight, many different models etc. Spec tires and fuel, no more "special tires" for "special teams" etc.
This has been a problem, I don't care for for the must have this product rule, but it's fair to all.
The "Litre class" will be there for the "special teams" to dominate?
I hope the factories get on board fully with the new program, some of their long time advatages will be lost, but the series will be more interesting and should grow the sport in a much more positive light.
I used to go to the AMA flat track races at old Jax Speedway half mile, the stands were big and they sold out every time, used to be a regular stop before Daytona and the races at the old Barber half mile. Jim France was there one night, I spoke with him briefly, he was incognito and is a true Motorcycle Racing enthusiast, for him to be involved in this new venture can only be good.
I was going to post this, but someone already did... Is this to say that supersport and superstock are going away or am I missing something? Surely the mfrs. wouldn't let supersport die... would they?
Daytona Superbike is a name. Figure it is a Supersport styled class that allows more bikes. Currently, if it's a twin or a triple more than 600cc's, you're not allowed into Supersport.
So, figure a production based program that allows the 848, Buells, BMW, Aprilia, maybe some of the bigger displacement MotoST machines, etc.
How about a dyno limit of 135HP or so?
I think the new rules will be great for the racing, and I love the weight restriction, INCLUDING THE RIDER! which will allow guys who are larger (say up to 170lb) to be compeditive and participate. hopefully, the ASRA minimum weight for bike and rider will pass this year and eventually will end up in all classes including club racing.
They already have a bike and rider weight minimum in usgpru 125s
I think 120hp is plenty? less stuff blowing up, easier on the spec rear tire 8)
Looks a lot like 'throttle stop racing' on brand P tires and brand S fuel. Hopefully the HP limits are high enough that the basic pipe and map work do not require throttle stops (as most of the moto ST big bikes now must use to stay under the HP limit). Needing to detune a box stock bike is not a good plan.
DMG and Roger Edmondson suck! Spec tires, spec fuel, and all kinds of other dumb restrictions all in the name of what? Well...... dumbing down racing! Down to the NASCAR idea what motor racing should be. This "stock car pee on" Edmondson does not know his ass from his elbow about motorcycle racing. Rolling starts? What the fuck is that! He is a certified moron! Rolling starts were implemented in early 20Th century board track racing because the machines were direct drive, no gearboxes or clutches! There is no excuse today for such nonsense. The idiots that run NASCAR have not figured this out yet. I hope ALL of the manufacturers tell "dingleberries Dingman" and DMG to shove their racing up their collective asses! Its time for ASRA to step up and keep real motorcycle racing in the U.S. alive. Regards, Dan
Quote from: firebolt on April 18, 2008, 04:35:13 PM
DMG and Roger Edmondson suck! Spec tires, spec fuel, and all kinds of other dumb restrictions all in the name of what? Well...... dumbing down racing! Down to the NASCAR idea what motor racing should be. This "stock car pee on" Edmondson does not know his ass from his elbow about motorcycle racing. Rolling starts? What the fuck is that! He is a certified moron! Rolling starts were implemented in early 20Th century board track racing because the machines were direct drive, no gearboxes or clutches! There is no excuse today for such nonsense. The idiots that run NASCAR have not figured this out yet. I hope ALL of the manufacturers tell "dingleberries Dingman" and DMG to shove their racing up their collective asses! Its time for ASRA to step up and keep real motorcycle racing in the U.S. alive. Regards, Dan
You obviously have no idea who Roger Edmondson is. Do some research.
Firebolt, Roger Edmondson knows a great deal about motorcycle racing--he founded supersport racing in the late 80's, he also was the man behind the AMA-EBC pro endurance racing series. While I don,t care for the proposed class structures, the idea behind it is to promote close racing and put fans in the seats, which is a great idea. I would prefer to see big bore superbike racing, but with a more level playing field--if your team/sponsor has the dollars they should have access to the same parts, which has not been the case for many years-just ask Mr. Jordan or many other well funded teams over the last 15 years. My concern is the trickle down effect on the club racing scene. If I am right about the spec tire being brand P, then I doubt that brands D, M, and B. will be interested in doing much race tire development with only club racing in mind. Also, I can see a change for the worse with manufature contingency money at the club level, which is where the bulk of us play. Let us take a wait and see attitude until the rules package is put down in print.
yeah, this is good stuff in general and really makes the competition fair. but I have to disagree with the spec tire. Each motorcycle maker sells their bike with their own respective tire so its only fair to allow that same diversity.
Should the spec tire turn out to be anyone but brand D, that will create a legal issue that would rule out all 4 Japanese factory teams as all have signed contracts thru 2009 with brand D. Also, should there be a hp/weight limit on the featured class, will the torque figures also be used, as a good portion of the manufactures on have large displacement twins. Say you ride a 120hp/45lbs. torque 4cyl 600, with hp being measured limit, you would race against a twin with the same hp.,but nearly twice the torque. Which one do you want to ride?
Racing is not supposed to be fair. It's about who has the best prepared equipment and the most skilled riders, period! That's the way it has always been. There is the fast guys, and the not so fast guys, i.e. "backmarkers" like me. When you try and manufacture a mythical "level playing field" you basically destroy the whole idea of racing in the first place! To see what machine is the fastest! Gee it that so difficult to understand? And yes, Roger Edmondson is an idiot. Regards, Dan
"Racing is not supposed to be fair. "
WTF does that mean? Screw it then. I say no classes. Run what ya brung! That about as unfair as it gets. Did you really think about that statement before you typed it?
I assumed that most readers here would understand I made that comment within the context of the class system. I never stated that I did not like specific classes for different machines. However within that said system there is the people that pay attention and those who do not. Kinda like natural selection. Regards, Dan
Looks like I'll have a lot more time for my dual sport riding and other interests. Pro roadracing has just gone the way of the NASCAR circus.
Roger Edmondson does have a lot of experience in m/c racing but in my opinion he's not showing it here. Obviously he didn't learn from the failed EBC endurance program. Spectators do not like endurance racing, it's boring!! As a racer it's great, I used to love competing in it but unless you're involved it's not fun.
Spec tires, spec fuel and weight limits w/rider? Sorry, I can't get excited about that. And, this will not help the manufacturers sell bikes which is the main reason they're involved in the first place. I wouldn't blame them if they all pulled out. Then DMG will have another club racing series like WERA and CCS/ASRA which we don't need.
Just my .02 cents................
A club racing series that has the backing of lots of promotion and other outside motorcycle sponsors. Saying that it will affect club racing contingency probably isn't true either. I think the smallest of the small stock car series (ARCA) does pretty well as well as the drivers and teams with Lucas, Torco, etc.
Did not say thus WOULD affect club racing, but COULD affect club racing---until things are sorted out and put on paper we all will just have to wait and see what the outcome will be. Don't think much will be final until July or August at the earliest, but then I may be wrong.
I see tody a new update from Moto-ST. They have moved their race from June 15 to June 7..........yep, the AMA weekend. Nothing like moving into the series early.
So, that gives me a few hours to get in a round of practice for the Monday Red Flag golf outing. I'm not going to sit and watch an endurance race!
see attached update to Road America AMA/Moto-ST
Quote from: weggieman on April 19, 2008, 09:17:28 AMAnd, this will not help the manufacturers sell bikes which is the main reason they're involved in the first place. I wouldn't blame them if they all pulled out. Then DMG will have another club racing series like WERA and CCS/ASRA which we don't need.
Just my .02 cents................
Good point.
I'll take it another direction.
Since AMA Pro Racing hasn't developed around teams' well being and spectators through, it's only use being to sell motorcycles, that's why it has only done as well as it has. We know it's cool, but it's not so fun when one can easily speculate the top seven week after week, year after year.
With the manufacturers putting their support around a tiny select number of teams, it's of no use to outside potential sponsors. So, few make any money at all, and most rotate out of AMA Pro Racing regularly only to be replaced by individuals in the same position...no manufacturer support, no team support package.
My two pennies there.
But.......taking development out of the equation and you get what?
I for one will not sit and watch restricted racing. It's bullshit in my opinion. Spec tires, spec fuel and weight restrictions w/rider makes a no sense to me. Moto-ST is a joke and it looks like they're going to try doing the same to the rest of the series classes.
If you think this is going to bring the throngs of spectators running to get tickets well, I would really be surprised. And I may be but I will not be one of them. Nascar has those fans fooled and i guess they'll try the same with the motorcycle fans now.
Doesn't the AMA feature restricted racing already? Stock cranks and rods, stock lift cams, and when was the last AMA Superbike race won on anything other than Dunlop?
I think there are plenty of racers that have struggled to get bikes within four to six months as the manufacturer teams, and then getting some kit parts that are available to the manufacturer teams can be impossible.
From the track and the paddock side, I've watched the gap become a bit bigger between the manufacturer teams and the others. I don't think that's because they've developed the human racer better through years of genetics and motivation, but I do think it comes from more and more testing and availability of parts and opportunities that most can't buy and those with unlimited funds aren't even allowed to buy.
MotoST is a different model. I can't say that I have insight on whether it will be at all events, but I don't know if side cars really added to the AMA program at Road America, but I would probably feel that they did add something to the AHRMA event the weekend later.
Quote from: Aristotle Kristatos on April 22, 2008, 09:22:39 AM
Good point.
I'll take it another direction.
Since AMA Pro Racing hasn't developed around teams' well being and spectators through, it's only use being to sell motorcycles, that's why it has only done as well as it has. We know it's cool, but it's not so fun when one can easily speculate the top seven week after week, year after year.
With the manufacturers putting their support around a tiny select number of teams, it's of no use to outside potential sponsors. So, few make any money at all, and most rotate out of AMA Pro Racing regularly only to be replaced by individuals in the same position...no manufacturer support, no team support package.
My two pennies there.
I am agreeing with Dave, I think the world may be ending soon:)
I think one of the goals is to end the direct factory teams and replace them with more factory supported teams such as the Jordan team. Compared to most other forms of racing, motorcycle racing tends to be dominated by factory teams.
I wonder what type of TV package they are working on. High TV ratings are more important than the draw at the gate from a sponsors point of view.
Quote from: tzracer on April 22, 2008, 01:40:12 PM
I am agreeing with Dave, I think the world may be ending soon:)
LOL!
If you think the Nascar people involved don't court factory teams in Nascar you are way out of touch. Should GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota be regulated out of that series the resulting fan base lose would be great. No matter how many private ARCA or other orgs. teams came over, the fan backlash-both in on track tickets and TV ratings would go in the toilet. If you think there are no 'factory' teams in NASCAR, then why do the same 3 or 4 teams always finish at or near the top?---Hendricks (GM), Roush (Ford), Gibbs (Toyota) and occasionally Dodge (Everingham).
Just remember in NASCAR all of the cars are pretty much the same, just different paint and engines. Hope that's not what they have in mind with MC racing. (Toyota had to dumb down there engine to be allowed to compete)
new post on rrw, just some thoughts from other racers.http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article
Moto-ST to use timed qualifying starting @ VIR
see attached...
Only good part recently is they'll use the rules package for "litre bike" that we developed last year. Would have been a shame to see all that time and work gone to waste. But they're still looking at spec tires and fuel for it...............
The major reason for the rules or "restrictions" in the package we developed was to try slowing the bikes down a bit for safety reasons. There was never talk about parity between manufacturers. 1000cc superbikes were just getting way too fast for the tracks we have.
I still think someone bumped their head on this dealbut as I said, I could be wrong. We'll see............
Quote from: PJ721 on April 22, 2008, 06:17:04 PM
Moto-ST to use timed qualifying starting @ VIR
see attached...
Rule changes mid-season sure are getting old. As far as I'm concerned that's just practice. I could care less if I'm dead last on the grid, at least that way there is a really good chance of winning the most improved position prize.
Timed qualifying for an endurance race? WTF?
yup...I like it....although a little more notice would've been nice...not that we'd do anything different.
were ever we end up gridded is fine
Quote from: n2racing6 on April 22, 2008, 04:24:30 PM
If you think the Nascar people involved don't court factory teams in Nascar you are way out of touch. Should GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota be regulated out of that series the resulting fan base lose would be great. No matter how many private ARCA or other orgs. teams came over, the fan backlash-both in on track tickets and TV ratings would go in the toilet. If you think there are no 'factory' teams in NASCAR, then why do the same 3 or 4 teams always finish at or near the top?---Hendricks (GM), Roush (Ford), Gibbs (Toyota) and occasionally Dodge (Everingham).
I don't view those as factory teams. The teams are not run directly by the manufacturers. ISTR that Nascar has restrictions about teams getting any special treatment from a factory, no special parts. Teams can modify the parts as they choose.
OK, timed qualifying then invert the field.......................
TZRACER, Are you kidding? Modify what parts- the factory developed cylinder heads? The factory developed cam and valve train package? The factory provided wind tunnel? The factory paid development? If the non-involved big 4 in NASCAR take a hike, you would see what non involement they had.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080423-dmg-view.htm
Quote from: n2racing6 on April 23, 2008, 07:51:30 PM
TZRACER, Are you kidding? Modify what parts- the factory developed cylinder heads? The factory developed cam and valve train package? The factory provided wind tunnel? The factory paid development? If the non-involved big 4 in NASCAR take a hike, you would see what non involement they had.
But those are provided to all teams. I am not saying they are not involved. They do not run their own teams as happens in motorcycle racing.Which seems to be the point of the new rules. No direct factory teams, any factory developed parts are available to all teams.
There's the possibility that OEMs won't be involved after this take over anyway so why is anyone getting their undies in a bundle about factories?
ASRA this your big chance! As Mr. Blank of American Honda said. A promoter is going to step up with a OEM friendly racing organization and I will go play! The time is now. Every factory will jump ship to ASRA if you can show them a better way. Regards, Dan