Ok, so, I was out there at CMP on Saturday. It rained. I only had DOTs. (and race rain tires were not in the budget)
Here's the question:
I came in last place anyway, but wanted the points-- Could I have just completed one lap and still received points for 12th place?
At the time, I wasn't sure, so I just went ahead and completed all of the laps. Needless to say, I tiptoed around the track, as I was not very confident at all in the wet. I kinda felt like I was wasting everyone's time on the victory lap because it took me several minutes to get back around to the pit!
Thanks in advance!
--Justin
Yes, you can do 1 lap and go in and get points (unless something changed). However, coming in last or doing the 1 lap is really useless as your performance index gets hit BIG TIME which hurts worse than just sitting in and not going out.
My suggestion, embrace the rain. Learn to love it.. It's fun! I'd take on a rain race anyday...
one lap as long as there isnt a red flag and a restart i belive for sprint races
and i agree with Jeff learn to play in the rain rain races can be alot of fun some times
how does the performance index come into play? --justin
Quote from: Garywc on April 16, 2008, 04:09:56 PM
one lap as long as there isnt a red flag and a restart i belive for sprint races
and i agree with Jeff learn to play in the rain rain races can be alot of fun some times
thanks for the reassurance about racing in the rain. i'll be sure to join you guys out there next time... WITH rain tires on!
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure PI only impacts overall point standings, not class championships. Your PI is used in a calculation along with actual points earned to determine your overall-point standing.
If I'm not mistaken on the above point, when compared to not starting the race at all, pulling in after one scored lap would help you in terms of class points, but would hurt you in the overall "selective combined points" rankings.
And I'd agree that racing in the rain can be really fun. The races that I've won have either been in the rain, or on a damp crummy track. We had a lot of rain in my first year (05) and I ran street Michelin's, so I got pretty good at adjusting for the conditions. Once I made the investment in rain tires, the time I spent sliding around in 05 really paid off. It's pretty amazing how capable full-rains can be in a downpour!
It's also really fun to bash the NASCAR weenies for parking their cars as soon as a few drops fall! :kicknuts: :cheers:
I don't know if I would say racing in the rain is fun but it does come with the sport.
I have only raced on DOTs so I can not compare to slicks or full rains.
What I can say is you learn throttle and brake control making you entry and drive
out smoother thus going faster. This transfers to the dry track really well too.
Quote from: Ridgeway on April 16, 2008, 04:51:00 PM
It's also really fun to bash the NASCAR weenies for parking their cars as soon as a few drops fall!
:wah:
He he he !! +1
Rain tires rock!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfmWx0tYRV8
Rain can be your friend! Learn to love it.
Best bet for the rain is to keep an eye on the weather at a track near you. if you see that it's going to rain all weekend that a trackday is scheduled, go on out and pay at the gate. so many people sit out track days when it rains that they'll let you sign up the day of the event and have some fun and learn quite a bit. i did that and finished better in all of my rain races than i did any or the dry ones.
and if rain tires aren't in your budget, check around for a set of used ones. used one rain tires are still better than dot tires.
+1 on the above statement. Just get you some used rains.... racing on DOT's in the rain is just plain not fun.
I could not believe the amount of brakes you could use in the wet with those tires on.
Quote from: r1owner on April 17, 2008, 12:11:48 AM
racing on DOT's in the rain is just plain not fun.
Thats all we used to be able to race with in supersport until 02 or so. :biggrin:
most DOTs work well in the rain
i ran super corsas last year and we raced in alot of rain HPT solo challenge and CMP solo last season on dots and black hawk i used the rains. all three races were nasty rain almost the whole race
be REAL careful with used rains. Rains, when used properly, don't wear a ton, so you can have a set that is a few years old. They get hard and you WILL fall on them.
A set of STREET DOTs is better than a set of 2 year old rains IMHO...
Jeff, anything you can do to mitigate them from going bad?
Someone told that pilot powers were good for the rain.
No expert here, but my very first race was at Jennings a few weeks ago. I was on Pilot Powers and I only slid around a little bit. I'm usually pretty slow, but I was a lot more confident on the Pilot Powers in the rain, especially because most of the guys on DOTs were really backing off.
They didn't heat up as much, but they were pretty warm and sticky when I came back in. I noticed that there were no balled up wads of rubber on the edges of the tire and it didn't seem to tear up as much when the track was wet.
I don't think I'm good enough for DOTs yet, but I'll be picking up a set of 2CTs for the next race in May. Afterwards I'll hold on to them as my 'rain set.'
if you're going to be racing you might as well get some rain tires because its going to happen and its noooo fun riding on the track on DOTs when its raining
if new rains aren't in the budget get some used ones
*cough*
http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,20213.0.html
I have a set of Michelin rain tires, but they slid around a LOT a few weeks ago at Jennings during my races. HBy looking at the sidewall, how can you tell what year the tires were Manufactured?
I am not sure about Michelins but some tires have a date code on the side that is 4 digits. xxxx the first two determine what week of the year they were manufactured and the next determine what year. so 0208 says that it was made 2 week of 2008.
The big problem with rain tires is trusting them and getting a feel for them, and the only way to do that is by running laps on them. Dots need alot more heat to work (grip) than rains, so I personally would take shagged rains over dots in the RAIN anyday. If you race in the south east, your probably going to get rained on, the dry weather paterns we have had seem to be giving way to rain again :biggrin: My 2004 (1404) built Dunlops that were overheated at Daytona :whine: in October are still working good (jgp and cmp). As far as michelin rains, the Melk-man has run 22s in the rain at jgp on them, so I think they have exellent grip. Shoot they all have good rain tires, and from what I hear, the Bridgestones are awesome 8) Just be sure to ask your tire guy what preasure to run in your rain tires, they run different preasures than dots.
running street tires as your "rain set".. yikes.
Michelin and all the mfg. rain tires are going to offer WAY more grip than DOT or street tires, period. The material full rain tires are made from are SUPER DUPER soft, not kinda soft.. real soft. THat is why they deteriorate if you ride them on a dry surface for much time. You do need to get them a bit up to temp to get them working optimally. Coming out on-track with them 70deg from the ambient air temp, dont expect to drag a knee right away. IF you really get going, they will be hot when you come in. THe lead guys were all draging knees in the rain races at Jennings, and Brad Graham was on michelins simply FA-LY-ING in the rain. Robby and others were as well, and did great at CMP in the rain.
My last performance in the rain at JGP was not anything to brag about, but i have been know to go pretty darn fast in the rain when things are going well.
Sell the street tires.. get full rain tires..
What kind of life can you (or I, being much slower) expect from a set of rains? 1, 2, 3 wet weekends?
Quote from: DakotaCBR on April 20, 2008, 05:07:32 PM
What kind of life can you (or I, being much slower) expect from a set of rains? 1, 2, 3 wet weekends?
provided the track is always wet (to the point of spray flying up) the tires could be used for many races..potentially 5-6?? The tires wear only a little bit if run on fully wet tracks.
Quote from: George_Linhart on April 16, 2008, 06:28:13 PM
Rain can be your friend! Learn to love it.
\
Last June at the Penguin Two Day School, we had a lot of rain on the first day. That threw a wrench in the works, so Eric Wood held several class sessions at once and we opened the track to all comers who wanted to go out in the rain and come to grips with it. Open session lasted for about three hours, during which a dozen or so riders went out. They pitted and re-entered as they saw fit during the session. By the time the rain stopped and we resumed normal rotation of rider groups, I had a dozen riders with big smiles on their faces because they actually felt they had fun out there as soon as they were comfortable with the conditions.
I think alot of questions about racing in the rain was answered yesterday at Summit Point.
Quote from: LongDogRacing on April 16, 2008, 03:10:21 PM
Ok, so, I was out there at CMP on Saturday. It rained. I only had DOTs. (and race rain tires were not in the budget)
Here's the question:
I came in last place anyway, but wanted the points-- Could I have just completed one lap and still received points for 12th place?
At the time, I wasn't sure, so I just went ahead and completed all of the laps. Needless to say, I tiptoed around the track, as I was not very confident at all in the wet. I kinda felt like I was wasting everyone's time on the victory lap because it took me several minutes to get back around to the pit!
Thanks in advance!
--Justin
When your running in practice or the race, twist the throttle on the straights and find out where the limit is (when the tire spins). You'd be surprised how well the DOT's do in the rain. Slow in fast out is the MO of rain races. The straights and braking are the critical parts of the race, as soon as you can get the bike pointed in the right direction, pin it (according to the limit). Most people are ciked out and like everyone else has said, rain can be your friend.... Furthermore, most with rains don't not their characteristics, from lack of experience, and are scared just as much. I only run rains in the endurance races, otherwise everyone is scrambling and isn't sure, not worth the money...
It's old school but you can buy a tire groover and cut your own rains from DOTs.
I ran on full rains once last year..the warm up lap was the first time i had EVER been on full rains. One of my teamates said, "they do real good when they are strait up and down, and most people chicken out on the starts, the worst that will happen is it will spin up on you." boy is that true. you can launch full rains amazingly hard of the line, and most people do kind of chicken out. (at least in AM) I was blown away by the grip of them. My best finishes ever are in the rain....so even though i hate it, i kind of have to like it. lol.
As Hamurobby said, you have to trust the rain tires as the grip is incredible in the wet. My first time out on rains was the Jennings race 4/6 and I was very impressed with the grip and performance. I found that the tire life is very dependent on track conditions. I have a front that is pretty much useless after three races. The first two races were fairly wet, the third race the track was starting to dry. I was hitting the puddles when ever possible, but as the track dried, the tire heated up and wore very quickly.
1983 at Roebling Road, I was racing a Honda 900-F in heavy rain. I had new Metzler ME-88's, supposed to be a good soft rain tire. Pat O'Leary was on a Yamaha 250 GP bike with slicks, he passed me on the inside going into the fast left turn 3.
He was hydroplaning a bit, but well controlled on the brakes and through turns 4 and 5 etc.
I was sliding and was amazed that he could be that fast on slicks, no doubt the weight of the bike and rider was an important factor, mine being well over 450 pounds, and I weighed maybe 30 pounds more than Pat.
Modern era.
2002, or 03 or so, racing the 1999 Superhawk, raining hard at Daytona during practice, mounted the new Michelin rains and went out, it was incredible the amount of grip and dispersion of even puddled water, like the exit of new chicane.
Never much chance of doing well in Super Twins or F-40, especially at Daytona, but the great liquid equalizer was there.
I was passing people I had not been able to even keep up with in the dry.
It was great, then the sun came out, the wind picked up, and the track dried completely 5 minutes before my first race, no time to change tires, so started the race and had to pull in on second lap.
I came to trust those tires completely after 1 lap and had some great fun.
Colin Edwards in World Superbike at Assen a few years ago, one of the best wet races ever! He showed what rain tires are capable of.
Also learned that day.
I was entered in F-40 and Super Twins, they were always back to back during the season, I think that day also.
The 2nd. race started, I wanted the points so started and eased around, pulled in at the end of that lap, but was not credited with a full lap as I did not cross finish line on the track.
I just bough some Dunlop rain tires this Summer.
I have not had a chance to try them yet.
Do you still put on tire warmers on rain tires?
Thanks in Advance!
Rain always makes me nervous. Then i race and win, and then I love it.
Won several races on full on slicks when I didn't have any other choice. Full wet conditions at Jennings in the LW F40 race and passed everyone except one person. Thankfully he was in the F40 and not lightweight.
Mark
Quote from: cbr600_mj on November 26, 2008, 01:56:22 PM
I just bough some Dunlop rain tires this Summer.
I have not had a chance to try them yet.
Do you still put on tire warmers on rain tires?
Thanks in Advance!
many will tell you "NO" .. but I put my 3 temp warmes on low about 15 min before i go out. Rain tires have to get warm to work properly. Going out on cold rain tires is.. well.. going out on cold tires. Say all you want about "the water cools them".. Not if you get going pretty good. Check the temp on the surface when you come in from a rain race some time. Steam is commin off and they are 150degF or more. Once rain tires are up to temp, you can do some amazin stuff.
I agree with you there Greg. I was very surprised at how warm the tires are coming off the track in a full wet race.
Mark
Quote from: MELK-MAN on April 20, 2008, 11:30:41 PM
provided the track is always wet (to the point of spray flying up) the tires could be used for many races..potentially 5-6?? The tires wear only a little bit if run on fully wet tracks.
i was spinning so bad in turn 2, 5, 13 that i kill my rear in 2 races =(
all i say is put the tires, coast throught the turn, dont be afraid to use your brakes but dont trail brake to hard and make sure you put your balls of steel before you get on the bike.
it has worked for me, so i will keep on doing it the same way =D
but gregs and robby post are very true.
Listen to Melkman, he knows what he is talking about. #2 guy, not a put down, the real deal. I personally do not run warmers with rains. I pay attention to my pressures though. A little higher than what you are used to running. Get with the tire guy of your choice but usually you are looking at street pressures for rains as they do not get as hot as DOT's or slicks and you want the sipes to stay open to push out the rain.
Thanks for all the info!
Looking forward to next season!
:thumb:
So you think my 4 year old rains aren't as good anymore? :biggrin:
Quote from: funsizeracing on November 28, 2008, 12:55:06 PM
So you think my 4 year old rains aren't as good anymore? :biggrin:
Hell Yeah! I won like 5 or 6 races in my first year on a metzler rear rain tire that Matt has destroyed at drying Daytona like 3 years prior. The thing was shagged, but it just kept on hooking up for me 4 years later, not to mention it was a 180 on 4.5 inch wheel. Wish i could find another metzler like that!