All I could find near me at the local Wallie Worlds was the blue bottle Rotella T 5W-40. Will this do the trick? The 5W is lower than the 10W I see you guys use...is that ok for a cold spring morning (trackdays coming up and its still a bit cold in the Chicago area).
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Yes, the blue bottle is the one you want.
Ditto. You want the lightest possible weight full synthetic for cold starts at the race track. If Rotella made 0W I'd probably be buying that.
You should also let your bike warm up at idle until the thermostat pops before you head out too.
Um...
15W, 5W, 0W....
That's reference to the oil's viscocity at 32F. No change in drag when the oil is up to operating temperature, when they are operating as SAE 40.
Often, better oils will be straight weight oils, as there are fewer additives.
I've always wondered why some things spec a 10w-30 instead of a 5w-30 or even why not a 0w-30. As I understand it, they are all the same at operating temp and the lower ones flow better at cold.
EPA of course...
With more restrictions for start up emissions, manufacturers have been forced to mandate low viscosity oils for their new applications. At least that's where the lower dubya's come from.
And 0W helps startup lubrication in cold weather which was also what this thread was talking about and for racing it helps to have the second number as big as possible for running at higher temperatures, so again 0w-50 or 5w-50 would be a good choice for the cold startup and high racing temps. And for a motorcycle you should try to make sure that the bottom on the certification stamp on the back doesn't say "energy conserving". And pretty much all oils have additives and NOT ALL additives are bad. I apologize for not being more careful to be technically accurate, but my recommended choice of oil is still the same.
For those who want to read up on some good tech info this is the article many "experts" will point you to and the reason why I started using Rotella-T full synthetic a couple years ago. Click on the link and then search for the word "choosing":
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
Why would you want to put a 50w oil in your engine? Seems to me that would be HP robbing.
I think you misread, it says 0w or 5w, the 50 is the Viscosity Index, i.e. the second number.
even better just click on the link and read thru the tutorial.
My point is, that a 0w-50 or a 5w-50 is going to act like a 50 weight at operating temperature, that is at least until you run it for a while and it sheers down.
The 2nd number isn't the VI of the oil, it's the viscosity grade of the oil at 100c. Anyway, what I'm saying is that you should use the thinnest oil that you can which still forces the two moving surfaces apart. Maybe I'm wrong, but a 50 weight seems a bit high in a racing motorcycle.
The higher the rpm the harder the lobes smack the lash caps.
You need a heavier oil to cushion the blow or you will wipe the lobes off and ruin the engine.
This does not mean that at 15,16 K that you need 90 weight but, still you need a heavy enough oil to cushion the valvetrain.
The W# means nothing when the engine is at operating temp.
While the heavier oil will take a smigion of power, I favor the loss of power for longevity over the last pony and grenade an engine.
If you want your engine to last an entire season or longer, just use a quality 10w-50 or 20w-50 and forget it...
Just an FYI, Drag racers regularly go through their engine and replace bearings, so they can afford to use 0 and 5 weight racing oil to extract that last 10th of a pony...
JMHO.
I haven't used a 50 weight oil since probably 1988, and that what when we had air/oil cooled engines where the oil was the primary coolant. I switched to 40 that year and used that with GSXR's that we raced through 1991...still oil cooled.
I had my own oil made in 2001. It was an SAE 10. No durability issues.
Good luck!
you guys are all crazy oil is oil it don't matter what you run
i have run everything from the cheapest oil to over $100 a case oil and theres no difference in air cooled bikes and water cooled bikes stock motors and bikes with supersport motors.
Thanks for the info guys. Didn't mean to start another oil war thread, but there's still some good info here.
Rotella is garbage for 13000 - 16000 rpm motorcycles. Its made for diesels that rev to 3500 rpm or whatever a diesel revs to. Make your engine builder rich and use it.
Dude you should really do some reading.... let me guess, you use Mobil 1
I hate to do this... but:
from shell's web site
Shell Lubricants has introduced Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology, a new and improved formulation designed to meet the new API CJ-4 service category for heavy-duty diesel engine oils.
Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology meets or exceeds API CJ-4 specifications in part due to an exclusive detergent system designed for outstanding control of piston deposits in 2007 engines," says Dan Arcy, Technical Marketing Manager for Shell Lubricants. "We also expect that Owner/Operators and Fleet Maintenance technicians will be able to visibly notice the outstanding wear protection for valve train components."
In addition, Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology is formulated with 30 percent more active ashless chemistry for outstanding protection against deposits and sludge. Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology features a unique detergent system exclusive to Shell designed for outstanding control of high temperature piston deposit.
New Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology was designed to optimize the durability and performance of DPFs (diesel particulate filters). Overall, the lower ash content in the oil will mean the DPF will potentially need to be cleaned less often which can mean lower maintenance costs. Another benefit is it helps maintain fuel economy.
Of course, Shell ROTELLA® T with Triple Protection™ technology continues to offer outstanding performance in other areas, including resistance to viscosity loss due to shear down and soot induced thickening to help maintain consistent viscosity throughout the maintenance interval.
Shell Lubricants has introduced Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology, a new and improved formulation designed to meet the new API CJ-4 service category for heavy-duty diesel engine oils. Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection Technology™ provides significantly lower wear, exceptional deposit control and engine cleanliness for both pre-2007 engines and the latest performance and emissions systems technology found on new 2007 truck engines.
"Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology meets or exceeds API CJ-4 specifications in part due to an exclusive detergent system designed for outstanding control of piston deposits in 2007 engines," says Dan Arcy, Technical Marketing Manager for Shell Lubricants. "We also expect that Owner/Operators and Fleet Maintenance technicians will be able to visibly notice the outstanding wear protection for valve train components."
Based on extensive industry recognized engine wear tests done by Shell Lubricants, Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology provides on average 50 percent greater wear protection (ranging from 27% to 88% reduced wear) than the previous formulation. These laboratory based findings are backed up by the results of over 5.5 million miles of on-highway road testing using current generation engines in which significantly lower iron wear was found.
"We were very pleased with the way the new Shell ROTELLA® T with Triple Protection™ technology performed in key industry tests, such as the Cummins ISM tests where it scored maximum merits for wear-protection," says Arcy. "For example in the Cummins ISM engine test, valve adjuster screws showed less wear and scratching."
In addition, Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology is formulated with 30 percent more active ashless chemistry for outstanding protection against deposits and sludge. Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology features a unique detergent system exclusive to Shell designed for outstanding control of high temperature piston deposit.
New Shell ROTELLA®T with Triple Protection™ technology was designed to optimize the durability and performance of DPFs (diesel particulate filters). Overall, the lower ash content in the oil will mean the DPF will potentially need to be cleaned less often which can mean lower maintenance costs. Another benefit is it helps maintain fuel economy.
Of course, Shell ROTELLA® T with Triple Protection™ technology continues to offer outstanding performance in other areas, including resistance to viscosity loss due to shear down and soot induced thickening to help maintain consistent viscosity throughout the maintenance interval.
I believe Rotella has gasoline and diesel blends. I use the diesel in my truck.
As long as it can stand up to the extra sheering that a motorcycle puts on an oil, it should be fine.
I believe the tighter tolerances used in manufacturing these day is the idea behind the oil vis. as they fit into the thinner space between moving parts .
They change vis. as the oil molecules heat they get longer and will then need a larger hole to flow threw and more time.
I'm not a chemist but I believe I was awake in class that day the FAA has some pretty good guide lines on the subject.
But those classes were 25yrs ago and I did sleep threw some .
Use manufacturer recommended oil, both in winter (W) and viscosity rating. Period. Manufacturers put recommendations in the manuals for a reason. And if you thik they only design the motors to live under full rpm rev for short periods of time, think again. All bikes get rev and temp tested before they leave the factory. If the motor is built (by a builder, not you and some buds in a garage), ask the builder. If it blows up due to shear, scorching or lack of lubrication protection based on his recommendations, he'll be busy for a few days.
I think a really important point to put out there is changing your oil often enough (filter too, when you can) after extended periods of "abuse" to include really hot weather, engine loading (Dyno use), and wide open spin ups for duration to revlimit point. Changing your oil helps rid the motor from sulphuric acid, a byproduct of conventional and semi synthetic blends over time. The acid is what really does the damage to the motor over time due to heat and moisture accumulation. Keeping that protection as fresh as possible is key to helping your motor go the distance. Instead of worrying so much about the right numbers and which viscosity will give you a few more (suspected) horsepower, focus on making your engine going the distance. It'll be less expensive for you and you'll enjoy the track a lot longer.
Just so people know, I work for BG Products and Services (an oil company) and have been involved with their company for about 4 years. I've been to school for oils and other petroleum products, and I've still managed to remain fairly objective when it comes to saying which oil works better than another. The DATA will set you free! When considering an oil, do some research and ask to see a TFOUT (ASTM) test performed on the oil you are thinking about using. Sometimes the results will surprise you! It's not always the most expensive brand that comes out on, or even near, the top!
For what it's worth, those who are skeptical of what I've said and think that BG is just snake oil, there are currently 3 AMA Superbike and Superstock teams that are using and are very pleased with BGs' oils and lubricants.
Good luck in your decision, original poster! I hope I have helped some!
For around $3/Qt, Shell Rotella T syn gets my money.
After a weekend of pavement scortching, I drop it out of the sump and put it in my clunker car. Maybe if I were racing I would be more particular or if I had more money tied up in my bike. But I do ride hard (clutchless downshifts, bouncing off the limiter) I just make sure I am up to temp before I let the mezmorizing buzz of the engine start my wrist a twitching.
:biggrin:
Quote from: Hollywood on April 01, 2008, 10:00:41 PM
For what it's worth, those who are skeptical of what I've said and think that BG is just snake oil, there are currently 3 AMA Superbike and Superstock teams that are using and are very pleased with BGs' oils and lubricants.
HATER!!!!!
:biggrin:
Actually, the BG stuff is pretty good. I have BG transmission oil in my bus. Good stuff.
BG needs an ad department. I'd never heard of the stuff till today.
What up Hollywood? :) You going to CMP?
Quote from: Sig on April 03, 2008, 02:29:38 PM
BG needs an ad department. I'd never heard of the stuff till today.
BG is known in the automotive industry. Most of their products are shop oriented, i.e. You can't get their stuff at retail parts stores. http://www.bgprod.com/home.html
Quote from: Sig on April 03, 2008, 02:29:38 PM
BG needs an ad department. I'd never heard of the stuff till today.
What up Hollywood? :) You going to CMP?
Hey Sig, absolutely! I'm driving down Thurs with the rest of the mob. Doing the practice day Fri and looking forward to getting back in the saddle. It's been a loooong winter, I can't wait for this year bro! What about you?
It's funny, everytime "the oil question" comes around nobody ever discusses how the different oils compair against each other in regards to performance gain ....... as in horse power. You guys go right ahead and run the best oil you can find that's cheap, or pour over the white papers and draw your conclusions as to which is the best oil.
I'll take the performance advantage any day - Motul 300V, dyno proven.
Sought, but never found...
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.graphpaper.com%2Fwp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F02%2Fholy_grail_660.jpg&hash=5e561180931d01489a241d5ac460ee23a5c44356)
Quote from: Hollywood on April 03, 2008, 05:20:04 PM
Hey Sig, absolutely! I'm driving down Thurs with the rest of the mob. Doing the practice day Fri and looking forward to getting back in the saddle. It's been a loooong winter, I can't wait for this year bro! What about you?
Unfortunately not. Trying to do the responsible thing and buy a house. Right now I'm looking at my first racing being either VIR or Barber. I will be at CMP saturday to pick up some stuff from last year though......plus I need to give Joel hell for not going faster on his pretty new bike. :)
Just an FYI;;
For those that are familar with Falicon, they used to require their cranks to be broke in with Kendall or no warranty...
The brand name, Kendall, was sold and the formula dropped.
The original producer, http://www.amref.com, makes the origional formula under the brand, http://www.bradpennracing.com.
Break in oil;
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/BIO30.html
Racing oils;
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/SAE0W30.html
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/SAE10W30.html
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/SAE20W50.html
Several years ago the Fed Gubmit reduced the amount of metals that can be in oil.
Zinc being one of them was the worst casualty...
Under rules, retail oils could not contain more than % metals however, that is not the case with true Racing, non-retail oils.
Quote from: Sig on April 03, 2008, 05:33:27 PM
Unfortunately not. Trying to do the responsible thing and buy a house. Right now I'm looking at my first racing being either VIR or Barber. I will be at CMP saturday to pick up some stuff from last year though......plus I need to give Joel hell for not going faster on his pretty new bike. :)
I haven't even shown up in this thread and I'm still getting called out? What the hell. Why don't you hang out for Sunday and pit crew for me with my pretty new bike in the solo challenge? I'm trying to get some good seat time this weekend....
I knew you'd show up in the thread!! :) I just might do that, I'll have to see if I can get off work Sunday.
Quote from: Team_Serpent on April 03, 2008, 05:23:57 PM
It's funny, everytime "the oil question" comes around nobody ever discusses how the different oils compair against each other in regards to performance gain ....... as in horse power. You guys go right ahead and run the best oil you can find that's cheap, or pour over the white papers and draw your conclusions as to which is the best oil.
I'll take the performance advantage any day - Motul 300V, dyno proven.
well if that were really the case then why isn't everyone using it? I find that pretty interesting. I mean, what the heck were all of those AMA Superbike teams doing? Bunch of rookies, apparently.
Quick, tell them to use the oil you do and they will make more horsepower! Maybe that is the missing key to what we need to even the playing field in that series. You are a GENIUS, my friend!
There will never be a published test in a controlled (ASTM) style environment to "prove" which oil makes more power. There are too many variables that could be disputed by all of the companies that do not place at the top.Don't you think every motorcycle performance mag would be all over a dyno shootout of which oil is the best? Imagine the under the table antics involved with that whole process.......
Use your brain.
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AM
well if that were really the case then why isn't everyone using it?
Well that is the case and good question.
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AMI find that pretty interesting. I mean, what the heck were all of those AMA Superbike teams doing?
A lot of AMA teams (including this one) are using Motul.
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AM
Quick, tell them to use the oil you do and they will make more horsepower!
Some of the best engine builders in the AMA paddock are the ones who told me. And yes I've tested it myself
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AM
There will never be a published test in a controlled (ASTM) style environment to "prove" which oil makes more power. There are too many variables that could be disputed by all of the companies that do not place at the top.Don't you think every motorcycle performance mag would be all over a dyno shootout of which oil is the best? Imagine the under the table antics involved with that whole process.......
I don't need a published test, if you do then you can wait for it.
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AM
Use your brain.
If you want to be a dick that's your choice, I always use my brain.
Believe what you want, do what you want, it doesn't make any difference to me.
I have a sample of Rotella down stairs that I need to send away for analysis. I ran it in a RC51 for an entire season without changing it. Did it year before last with changing it twice then sent it away for analysis. Came back looking great and they said I could have run it longer.
Quote from: Hollywood on April 06, 2008, 12:29:46 AMI mean, what the heck were all of those AMA Superbike teams doing? Bunch of rookies, apparently.
Don't confuse sponsorships with product at that level.
Stickers, patches, and endorcements are about cash, and they do not necessarily represent products that are available to the public, or even the well connected, can buy.
Rotella's a good oil. Won't hurt a motorcycle engine even in long term racing used. As KTD even says, a UOA shows that is was excellent even in a motorcycle application. If there were wear problems, UOA would pick it up. If there were problems with the oil, UOA would pick it up.
There is no magic bullet.
What, where, how UOA? Info Pleez.
Blackstone Labs is usually the common place.
Yep Blackstone Labs. I usually do a yearly test on each bike. Only problem I have ever had come back as a problem was my SV with Flatslides, it gets Fuel in the oil. Every time you touch the throttle and its not started those accelerator pumps dump fuel in the jugs. So I change that one more often. I would have never know this was occurring if not for the analysis.
Quote from: Team_Serpent on April 07, 2008, 06:10:07 PM
Well that is the case and good question.
A lot of AMA teams (including this one) are using Motul.
Some of the best engine builders in the AMA paddock are the ones who told me. And yes I've tested it myself
I don't need a published test, if you do then you can wait for it.
If you want to be a dick that's your choice, I always use my brain.
Believe what you want, do what you want, it doesn't make any difference to me.
I wasn't trying to be a dick. I also do not have all the answers, and I can only speak from personal experience and speak about things I've seen. I apologize if you interpreted my comments that way, unfortunately the internet has a way of taking the sarcasm out of what is typed here. I'm glad that you feel as strongly as you do about the oil you choose. Good luck to you and your team this year! I hope that the products you use will meet and exceed your expectations.
I don't like running oil very long in a race bike that has a wet clutch. I'm always amazed at how much clutch fiber you can see if you take the time to look in the filter a few real hard starts.
Granted it should all be caught by the filter.......but I guess I'm just anal.
Quote from: Sig on April 09, 2008, 07:21:45 PM
I don't like running oil very long in a race bike that has a wet clutch. I'm always amazed at how much clutch fiber you can see if you take the time to look in the filter a few real hard starts.
Granted it should all be caught by the filter.......but I guess I'm just anal.
Totally agree, change mine after every race weekend, filter as well.
Someone mentioned above about seeing results of fuel contamination after an oil lab test. Never had a lab test done but found that comment interesting. I always smell race fuel when changing the oil so I was already convinced there was contamination. Race fuel is very corrosive so I can only imagine what is going on when you continue to run contaminated oil.....can't be good.
Someone also commented running their oil an entire race season! Holy cow!
So if my oil sample comes back good it's wrong?
Quote from: ktd on April 10, 2008, 11:41:26 AM
So if my oil sample comes back good it's wrong?
Where's the popcorn...
:pop:
Quote from: ktd on April 10, 2008, 11:41:26 AM
So if my oil sample comes back good it's wrong?
Didn't say that, not sure what the test includes and what the criteria is for classifying used oil as good/runnable. I just can't imagine not changing oil the entire season.
Based on what I know (and I'm not saying I know it all, just stating what I know from personal experience) happens inside a motor/transmission during racing and the fact that there definitely is contamination of the oil during use, the idea of running the same oil an entire season is mind boggling.
UOA will tell you what's actually in the oil, and compare that to what the oil is supposed to be. But also compare it with a proper Total Base Number that can tell you if the oils is shot.
Quote from: Team_Serpent on April 10, 2008, 12:15:34 PM
Didn't say that, not sure what the test includes and what the criteria is for classifying used oil as good/runnable. I just can't imagine not changing oil the entire season.
Based on what I know (and I'm not saying I know it all, just stating what I know from personal experience) happens inside a motor/transmission during racing and the fact that there definitely is contamination of the oil during use, the idea of running the same oil an entire season is mind boggling.
Well I can understand why you would think that. I used to think that and I would change often. But someone saying they change every weekend to me sounds like too much. I really think its a big myth now that I started doing the testing.
I plan to run Rotella 5-40 in my SV for the season racing and track days and change every three weekends keeping an eye on the oil level and for fuel. I did just rebuild it this year only for the higher compression. The pistons that came out looked great!. BTW Motul makes the clutch slip in that bike.
In the RC I run the Mobil 1 15-50 starting last year mostly because it gets so hot and runs at around 210F. Will see what the test says.
In my 1098 I havn't decided which oil I will run but yea I will probably change it more than once a year ;)
BTW the 1098 and RC I do not race. Just track days.
GREAT link!!! KW!