What do you Ams do when it rains? Last year was my first racing and I just stayed home when it was raining(one event). This year I would like to at least show up and get points for a few laps. The real question is do the Ams go to the trouble of putting on rain tires or just go slow on say Pirelli supercorsas? I know the Experts are more hard core and use rain tires, but what do most Ams do? ;)
Ams that run in the rain usually use rain tires. Using the DOT near-slicks in full rain would be INSANE.
Lots of people, ESP ams don't stick around during the rain, opening up a better potential finish for me :)
Seriously, I REALLY like riding in the rain, and will be out there either way. I'd like to think I have a good amount of wet weather confidence, but we'll see about that. (It's my first year)
Show up and race, not just "do a few laps"
Get rain tires, and get out there, and spray up some rooster tails!
:P
It really depends on time and money - last race of season at Gateway I went out with unscrubbed d208's for the first race, I figured what the hell, kept it straight up and down and was easy on the throttle ;D
I could really not afford to buy rain tires, switch off my 208's and then switch backlater in the day when it dried out. This year I have a spare set of rims to put rains on if it comes to that. :D
Yea, thats what I was wondering, I dont want to cough up the extra cash for rain tires and then have to scramble trying to change back and forth. Maybe if I win the lotto I can get extra rims and rain tires. ;D
Last year at Daytona, it rained on Sunday and only a few people had rain tires.
this year forecast called for rain, so almost everyone had rain tires. most of those rode slower in the rain, but the front runners rode pretty hard. I was no more competitive in the rain than in the dry, and I love rain races. And these people will have rain tires all year, and the experience of having ridden in the rain at Daytona, so watch out if you are from their regions :)
Last year was my first racing.
It rained when I went to Summit, I raced 3 of my 5 races in the rain, with 207GPs. I wasn't gonna be no champion or anything, so I didnt feel like the need to spend money on rain tires when I didn't know how much I'd end up using them, and also I didn't want to risk a wreck riding in the rain, so that's why I only went for 3 of 5
QuoteLast year was my first racing.
It rained when I went to Summit, I raced 3 of my 5 races in the rain, with 207GPs. I wasn't gonna be no champion or anything, so I didnt feel like the need to spend money on rain tires when I didn't know how much I'd end up using them, and also I didn't want to risk a wreck riding in the rain, so that's why I only went for 3 of 5
I got my best finish up til that point on that weekend in Summit in July, when it rained. I used 207GP as well. But my buddy went and got rain tires, then won the race. I will be using rains all season, 3 races in Daytona didn't really wear them out much, I think they will last a whole season as long as I never use them on a drying track.
QuoteYea, thats what I was wondering, I dont want to cough up the extra cash for rain tires and then have to scramble trying to change back and forth. Maybe if I win the lotto I can get extra rims and rain tires. ;D
Go to ebay!
Thats where I got my spares from!
if you are a front runner, or have a chance at top 5, then having a set of rain tires is very important. Because a lot of other AM's may not have rains, or want to ride in the rain, especially in the races that are later in the day, you may be able to finish well, and get contigency money if you are willing to go out, and have rains. a set of rains should last a long time on a 600, as long as you dont ride it on dry lines. besides, I already paid about the same amount of money for entry fees, I would feel really cheated if I can't go race because it rained... But then I have 3 sets of rims, so I keep the rains permenantly mounted, and it only takes about 2 minutes to switch tires.
I agree.. if you got the cash, rains definitely help.. in our GTL race, lap ~12-14 I got lapped by the first 3 AMs b/c they had rains. I came in 5th.
Rain tires!
Years ago, you weren't allowed to ride in Supersport classes with rain tires when it was raining.
It was changed because of safety.
Rain tires work. DOT's in the rain is like riding with knobbies on pavement.
And besides, how much does a set of bodywork, pegs, bars cost?
And leathers, helmet, trip to X-ray.
I bought a set in Daytona just in time for the sun to come out. I'm real curious as to how they hold. Anybody have a understanding if they tend to grip more like old race tires with a gentle drift or do they grip like crazy to a point they give up all at once? Can ya tell I'm hydrophobic?
I hate the rain myself. It's really about survival, and sometimes luck. When a rain tire is kind of shot, it's like riding in the sand. But they do just work so awesome. I mean there are places where you can just hammer it!
Rains grip almost like race tires in the dry, but you have to set up differently... Dave is right, some places you just hammer it, except for the puddles. I had the most problem coming out of the chicane, where the bike tend to hydroplane, other than that, I had no traction issues, which means I should have gone faster :P
You would ride it almost like dry, just adjust your bike, you mind, and you lines a little bit, and look out for puddles. Its fun to ride in the rain, and its even more fun, when everyone complains and go slow and I hammer it to the front... then your grip fall off hehe
I don't know who told you that most amateurs don't run in the rain. Here in the MW region we all run in the rain and there are plenty of guys and gals who love to run in the rain. If you don't run in the rain.. you're a pussiass biatch!
Any recommendations/favorites for rain tires? I think I may just order a set and keep 'em in the trailer just in case.
QuoteAny recommendations/favorites for rain tires? I think I may just order a set and keep 'em in the trailer just in case.
I run dunlop rains but I hear from the fast guys that Michelin has the best rains.
do it..... my spomsor Prieto racing told me last year my first year lets put on rains . i said oh shit. but really he was right when you race your bike it starts to slide so when your on the dry track you can push your bike to the point of sliding which you usually wont do in the dry when you first start racing. so it made me faster. noing that point to push it to.
QuoteI run dunlop rains but I hear from the fast guys that Michelin has the best rains.
There have always been examples where Michelin rains have worked better than anyone elses.
QuoteThere have always been examples where Michelin rains have worked better than anyone elses.
Do you use those, Dave? Also, on the Michelin website they show a full rain for the front, but only an intermediate for the rear. Is that the best way to go, or would you recommend full rain both ends?
I have used them.
I always go with what the tire guy tells me to use. Knowledge is power. We've always used full rains.
And you've always got to watch for the change in weather and the expense. I live on a very tight budget, so I have to make things count.
As for a Michelin website... Doubt that it is ever really up to date with the current information on Michelin DOT and Race tires. You've really got to go to Tom Mason or Walt Schaefer, Dave in Texas, or one of the other Bib Men to get the current information. During the year, there might be changes too!
I used michelin rains at daytona, very nice tires, worth every penny, Just watch the paint lines off the banking, and make sure #977 doesn't beat you to the line to take the win. (in the 600)
Bill #41 CCS
QuoteI used michelin rains at daytona, very nice tires, worth every penny, Just watch the paint lines off the banking, and make sure #977 doesn't beat you to the line to take the win. (in the 600)
Bill #41 CCS
You must mean #477 because he keeps winning, and I keep finishing behind him...
Yes your right....#477
I just ran my first ever rain race on my TZ125 with some really old Bridgestone slicks. I just kept smooth and consistent and ended up running within 10 seonds of my dry track times and only had one tire slip occurence during the race. The track had very little standing water on it at the time though.
QuoteI just ran my first ever rain race on my TZ125 with some really old Bridgestone slicks.
Without getting crude or insulting....I'll just say that maybe your TZ125 doesn't have any available power left to spin the slicks in the rain. ;D ;D ;D
No offense ;D ;D ;)
And the contact patch is really small on a 125. It cuts pretty well through the water.
A British bike mag did some wet weather brake testing. After they tested all the tires, they threw on a soft front slick. It gave the shortest stopping distance. Mike Hunter won a ULGP on his TZ250 in the rain using slicks. He won by the length of the front straight at Blackhawk, second place was on full wet tires.
Wet traction is a combination of tread pattern and tire compound. The better the compound works in the wet, the less important the tread pattern, the less well the compound works, the more important the tread pattern. Hysteresis traction is how a tire works in the rain. The shape of the contact patch on a motorcycle works very well at removing water (approx. elliptical in shape), especially compared to the more rectangular shape of a car contact patch.
I run rain tires because of the added safety margin, cheap insurance.
Thanks Dave, I needed that . I was able to manage a 1:18.1 in the rain, how fast did you go? ;D My brother did quite well in his rain race too and he was just using standard Pirelli DOT's. He stated that most of his passing took place on the brakes but it looked like he was getting a good drive compared to others too.
Sorry John, I couldn't resist. Actually, a 1:18 is pretty good in the rain. I think I did that, but it was probably only one of them. Billy went by me like I was standing still. I was being a puss. I really was out there collecting points. Never having raced in the rain before, I didn't want to experience fixing a crashed racebike for the first time either.
I couldn't resist either, and if you have the bike leaned enough it will spin in the dry, I figured that one out in the morning race (almost the hard way). Overall I think I could have gone much faster in the rain but wasn't going to because I had the leaders ahead of me the entire time. The bike didn't want to rev above 12k either which gave me a very narrow region of power (if you consider 36.5 hp power ;)) to use around the track. I'm actually hoping to get to run in the rain again and might even request a water truck for the next track day. ;D ;D ;D
I think the rain tires are worth it! Im an amatuer racer and it rained last saturday for practice (at WSMC) ILOVED IT, I was hoping for rain for the races on sunday but it was beautiful outside :'(
seriously, scrape together the money and get rain tires, its the most fun I have ever had.
think it this way, a set of rains will last you a lot longer than a set of DOT's...
Quotethink it this way, a set of rains will last you a lot longer than a set of DOT's...
Actually the rains last less than a set of dots. Once you use the rains you tend to round the edges , the sharp fresh edge contributes to the greater grip in the wet!
QuoteActually the rains last less than a set of dots. Once you use the rains you tend to round the edges , the sharp fresh edge contributes to the greater grip in the wet!
What I meant was ... you will not be using a set of rains per weekend because its not likely to rain every weekend, and you probably won't be as hard, and ride as many laps on rains.
I did 4 practice sessions and 3 races (include a GT) race at Daytona, and the tires are barely worn, my DOT's from the next day were worn much more.
QuoteActually the rains last less than a set of dots. Once you use the rains you tend to round the edges , the sharp fresh edge contributes to the greater grip in the wet!
some how I am picture you with a utility knife sharping the edges and cutting new grooves on your rain tires ;)
QuoteWhat I meant was ... you will not be using a set of rains per weekend because its not likely to rain every weekend, and you probably won't be as hard, and ride as many laps on rains.
I did 4 practice sessions and 3 races (include a GT) race at Daytona, and the tires are barely worn, my DOT's from the next day were worn much more.
That propably isn't very many laps at daytona as those races are fairly short with the execption of the gtu race.Also at daytona you are not on the side of the tire very much. Also what lap times were you running in the rain? it is not very smart to think you can use the same rain tires over and over.
Exactly. And rain tires are at temperature at "room temperature". So, when they get heated up...well...
And just like race DOT's, they are for racing. If you're not using up the rains, you probably can go a lot faster. You go slower on DOT's and they will last quite a while too.
QuoteThat propably isn't very many laps at daytona as those races are fairly short with the execption of the gtu race.Also at daytona you are not on the side of the tire very much. Also what lap times were you running in the rain? it is not very smart to think you can use the same rain tires over and over.
Not over and over, but not per weekend either. They look scuffed, not worn. Rain tires work by tread design and by compound. If the tread is in good working condition and compound relatively in tact, why can't you over and over? Tread moves water and silica helps wet grip. Unless the tires get cooked and become hard and harsh, I don't see why they would work a LOT worse?
Besides, a real good rider can probably ride similar laptimes on DOT's than me on rains, so maybe I should be more concerned about my riding, than my tires?
QuoteExactly. And rain tires are at temperature at "room temperature". So, when they get heated up...well...
And just like race DOT's, they are for racing. If you're not using up the rains, you probably can go a lot faster. You go slower on DOT's and they will last quite a while too.
so when a non-front-running AM ask about how long a set of rains lasts, is it not correct to say since they are not going fast enough to use up the rain, they will last a while?
I believe most AM's don't buy rains to go faster in the rain, they buy it to not crash in the rain. In that sense, a set of not-abused used rain will do the job. I have ridden on street tires in the rain at trackdays, it is not really not bad. Because we were going slower than race pace.
The rain is a great equalizer. Really rerwards smooth riding but rains are a must regardless of skill level. The nice thing is that rains will let you know when they're cooked in a gentle way with a little slip there, little slip here and you know their time is up. Happened to me during a race. My lap times showed it too. Went in, had a new rear rain mounted before the next race and promptly dropped 10 seconds off my lap times from the worn rain tire. Not so much as a hint of a slide from then on.
Quoteso when a non-front-running AM ask about how long a set of rains lasts, is it not correct to say since they are not going fast enough to use up the rain, they will last a while?
I believe most AM's don't buy rains to go faster in the rain, they buy it to not crash in the rain. In that sense, a set of not-abused used rain will do the job. I have ridden on street tires in the rain at trackdays, it is not really not bad. Because we were going slower than race pace.
Rain tires also have a different cord construction, and that is also one of the dramatic reasons why they are different. Because of that, there are things that you shouldn't do to them, but, additionally, it's why they don't last as long.
As for rain being the great equalizer...
Rain is about survival and luck. If it were the "great equalizer" the finishing order would probably be about the same, just closer.
I've noticed my rains don't work very well down at gateway. When I asked a tire guy what was up, he told me I didn't have "acid rains". I was like "what the f#@k are acid rains?". ;) SuperDave?
QuoteRain tires also have a different cord construction, and that is also one of the dramatic reasons why they are different. Because of that, there are things that you shouldn't do to them, but, additionally, it's why they don't last as long.
As for rain being the great equalizer...
Rain is about survival and luck. If it were the "great equalizer" the finishing order would probably be about the same, just closer.
So how would you gauge that the rains have gone, or worn out, aside from laptimes? From the the sound of it you mean the tires will be much less effective way before the visual deteriation begins, so how should one know?
I noticed in my second race with them (they were used when I got them) that they began to slide through the same corners each lap and caused me back off for concern of the "big slide". I started running 8-10 seconds slower each lap. After that race I went in had a new rear rain mounted and promptly dropped 11-12 seconds off each lap without so much as a hint of a slide anywhere even though I was pushing harder than before. The tire guy told me that when the treads start to round off at the edges they will go away at a steady rate. They will have plenty of tread depth left but it will have smooth, round edges as opposed to nice, well defined rubber at tread's edges.
QuoteIf you don't run in the rain.. you're a pussiass biatch!
or you are a Nascar driver. :D ;D :D ;D
Love riding in the rain. Hell I go out and do 200 mile rides in the rain on the YZF. Pretty much keeps the roads free of calamari. ;D
QuoteI noticed in my second race with them (they were used when I got them) that they began to slide through the same corners each lap and caused me back off for concern of the "big slide". I started running 8-10 seconds slower each lap. After that race I went in had a new rear rain mounted and promptly dropped 11-12 seconds off each lap without so much as a hint of a slide anywhere even though I was pushing harder than before. The tire guy told me that when the treads start to round off at the edges they will go away at a steady rate. They will have plenty of tread depth left but it will have smooth, round edges as opposed to nice, well defined rubber at tread's edges.
I think I am going to try to re-tread my rains myself when it gets smooth, and try it out on a track day to see if it works better