Since newer bikes tails are soooo tiny, WERA is allowing the numbers to be placed on either side of the rear of the bellypan. When Will CCS Allow this?
Numbers must be placed in a location where they are visible in a font that is easily readable. Top of the tail, lower, belly pan etc doesn't work.
Front is used for id a bike that you know uyou are looking for IE start/finish line for scoring, or a bike that you know has a problem coming to you and need to get off course. A corner marshall is looking down track to be able to signal to riders up track of an incidnet so when they see a problem on a bike the front is long ago not visible so they must use the tail numbers. When we have high mounted corner stands or TV cameras at every corner for every event then the top mounted tail numbers would be a safe alternative to side mounted tail numbers.
Funny to hear the radio calls for the poorly displayed numbers at Daytona for what is the bike that short cutted, crashed, having an issue etc and corner marshalls could not give it because the numbers were not visible or readable. Then to be sitting less than 50 foot from the track edge and not be able to tell the difference of the 6 and the 1 in the Superbike class. Well actually won't have mattered with those numbers as driving through the pits I could not tell the difference 20 foot away from the stationary bikes.
I have to commentd the Honda team. Going into Daytona all I heard is the sky is falling there is no room to put 2 sets of number per CCS rules on the 08 CBR tail section. And arguments to allow the bikes to have numbers put on the lower as seen during the Daytona tire tests by the factory Honda bikes (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2008/usasuperbike/fontucky-test-feb/5/Fontana018.JPG). Lo and behold those same bikes show up at Daytona not with numnbers on the lower or a single number on the tail but two very readable numbers prominently displayed on each side of the tail (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2008/usasuperbike/daytona/7/Sat009.htm) and right in your face on the front of the bike[URL]. :thumb: :thumb: Honda Guess Honda wanted fans to know who was on their bikes. (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2008/usasuperbike/daytona/5/Thurs012.htm)
FWIW I'm doing our stuff as an experiment - if it fails we'll be back to the old rules next year.
Perhaps we just need to go back to something like this
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.ama-cycle.org%2Fmembersonly%2Fmuseum%2Fimages%2Fb37%2Fclassnov_400.jpg&hash=54963ccb699212e5cec37a1981fa5cc2394c387b)
Quote from: tzracer on March 12, 2008, 12:44:09 PM
Perhaps we just need to go back to something like this
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.ama-cycle.org%2Fmembersonly%2Fmuseum%2Fimages%2Fb37%2Fclassnov_400.jpg&hash=54963ccb699212e5cec37a1981fa5cc2394c387b)
Do you really want this?
Eric, please confirm, but don't the rules allow smaller numbers if the tail won't accomodate the standard 6" numbers, i.e., down to 4" numbers are allowable? Or are the tails so small that even 4" numbers won't fit?
The rules are 8" numbers but you can use down to 4" numbers if a larger size cannot fit, IE you cannot use 4" numbers if there is room for 6 or 8" number.
at tech in Daytona they told me they had to be at least 7" numbers
and then the guy teching my bike walked away and put a tech sticker on a pros bike outside tech with very small numbers on the front
also gave me a hard time about the transponder mount and helmet numbers but thats a different story
Quote from: tzracer on March 12, 2008, 12:44:09 PM
Perhaps we just need to go back to something like this
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.ama-cycle.org%2Fmembersonly%2Fmuseum%2Fimages%2Fb37%2Fclassnov_400.jpg&hash=54963ccb699212e5cec37a1981fa5cc2394c387b)
Isnt that what the rulebook says must be done if there isnt enough room for the required number size? :biggrin:
Quote from: Garywc on March 12, 2008, 02:41:42 PM
at tech in Daytona they told me they had to be at least 7" numbers
and then the guy teching my bike walked away and put a tech sticker on a pros bike outside tech with very small numbers on the front
also gave me a hard time about the transponder mount and helmet numbers but thats a different story
I am sorry about that Gary, we were unable to get rulebooks out to the tech guys in advance so some were unaware of the changes for 2008. I will be sure the details of the chages for 2008 are noted to the tech guys if they had not noticed them in the rulebook for future events.
thats ok Eric
it just gets frustrating sometimes
but what are you going to do sh*t happens
its also a busy weekend for all you CCS staff people
Quote from: Team_Serpent on March 12, 2008, 01:45:09 PM
Do you really want this?
Well, if you choose to race a motorcycle that does not have room for numbers, then you should attach number plates. I did it when I raced an RZ350 and on my wife's Ninja 250.
GP bikes have plenty of room for numbers, so I do not need them for my current bikes.
Quote from: tzracer on March 13, 2008, 12:24:37 PM
Well, if you choose to race a motorcycle that does not have room for numbers, then you should attach number plates. I did it when I raced an RZ350 and on my wife's Ninja 250.
GP bikes have plenty of room for numbers, so I do not need them for my current bikes.
Whatever
We're not talking about RZ 350's we're talking about modern day motorcycles that the majority choose to race.
you really didn't answer my question.
Just do what it takes to comply with the rules.
If Honda can do it in some fashion so can you.
It may mean you have to add number plates to the rear.
And so you don't have to reply I will just do this :wtf: :jerkoff:
Quote from: limy_1 on March 14, 2008, 12:36:12 PM
Just do what it takes to comply with the rules.
If Honda can do it in some fashion so can you.
It may mean you have to add number plates to the rear.
And so you don't have to reply I will just do this :wtf: :jerkoff:
Are you talking to me?
I always comply with the rules, I don't have a problem with number displays. I understand though, the growing problem with number displays on modern day sportbikes.
Is fashioning a number plate like pictured above a solution? Sure, but it looks like shit and I'm sure there is a better solution.
Yes, I was referring to you and your last post.
It is good to see that you always comply with rules.
I do understand the issue having had to manually score from the
sidelines as either a primary source or back up source for scoring.
The :wtf: :finger: were my attempt at humor aimed at my post.
If you mistook that I apologize
Whoa fellas, don't let this thread turn into this!!!!!!:
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=168734
Why not take one rider and have them put numbers all over their bike. front, tail, front of the lower, back of the lower, wherever they would like and talk to the corner workers at the end of the practice laps and see who could see what best. that way when people start crying about a silly number plate ccs can say they tried it and they know what they are using works best.
get me the stickers and i'll number the bajesus out of my bike for the first practice sessions at hpt just to stop the regular arguments that come from this question.
Quote from: limy_1 on March 14, 2008, 04:39:26 PM
The :wtf: :finger: were my attempt at humor aimed at my post.
If you mistook that I apologize
Gottcha :cheers:
Quote from: Team_Serpent on March 14, 2008, 12:10:09 PM
Whatever
We're not talking about RZ 350's we're talking about modern day motorcycles that the majority choose to race.
you really didn't answer my question.
Well when I raced my RZ it was a modern day motorcycle that many people were racing.
Adding number plates was very common. Virtually everyone did because motorcycles did not come with a place to put numbers. Hmmm sounds familiar.
Yes I did answer your question. If your tail section does not have the space to fit proper numbers, then add number plates as we used to do. We really did not worry to much about how it looked. We were more interested in racing. The ones on Wes Cooley's bike do not look that bad.
Quote from: tzracer on March 14, 2008, 10:56:27 PM
Well when I raced my RZ it was a modern day motorcycle that many people were racing.
Adding number plates was very common. Virtually everyone did because motorcycles did not come with a place to put numbers. Hmmm sounds familiar.
Yes I did answer your question. If your tail section does not have the space to fit proper numbers, then add number plates as we used to do. We really did not worry to much about how it looked. We were more interested in racing. The ones on Wes Cooley's bike do not look that bad.
Oh forget it, your obviously stuck in a certain mind set. :banghead: I just find it interesting that whenever this subject comes up you're the first to chime in with "put a number plate on it". Like it's the answer to the world's problems.
So finally I had to ask....do you really like number plates? I guess the answer is yes ::)
Actually now that I think about it, I kinda like it. I think I'm going to experiment for the next week. Anytime someone comes to me with a problem I'm going to tell them "put a number plate on it" :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
I'll let ya know how it goes :biggrin:
Are there any modern road bikes that don't have room for even 4" numbers? I'm not in to 2-stroke racing so I wouldn't know about those, but I think that all of the modern Japanese, American, and European 4-stroke road bikes that I've seen being raced look like they could fit 4" numbers on the tail. Even the little 125 GP bikes that I see around seem like they could fit 4" #'s.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious which bikes (besides vintage) have no tail cowl.
Quote from: kl3640 on March 15, 2008, 06:17:19 PM
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious which bikes (besides vintage) have no tail cowl.
Buell XB series have pretty much a non-existant tail. But theres no reason that the aftermarket bodywork companies couldnt 'finesse' their replacement tails with more number space.
Problem is....in some series you cannot deviate from the "stock" fairing shape and remain supersport legal. Even as simple as making a Honda CBR 600RR upper just plain flat on the sides to make it easier to logo etc. would then make it illegal for supersport competition in the AMA. The rules are in place to prevent the extremists from creating a fairing that is aerodynamically superior. Good thing for us is that bolt on number plates would also be altering the supersport condition of the fairings even though they would technically make the bike less aerodynamic and be a detriment to performance. But of course...those are AMA supersport rules not CCS.
But if I'm ever asked to bolt a performance robbing apparatus onto my motorcycle other than myself, I'm sure I'll respectfully decline...
Quote from: Team_Serpent on March 15, 2008, 03:07:21 PM
Oh forget it, your obviously stuck in a certain mind set. :banghead: I just find it interesting that whenever this subject comes up you're the first to chime in with "put a number plate on it". Like it's the answer to the world's problems.
So finally I had to ask....do you really like number plates? I guess the answer is yes ::)
Actually now that I think about it, I kinda like it. I think I'm going to experiment for the next week. Anytime someone comes to me with a problem I'm going to tell them "put a number plate on it" :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
I'll let ya know how it goes :biggrin:
LOL
Bikes used to have no place to put numbers, we added number plates.
Bikes then evolved bodywork that replicated race bikes at the time. This bodywork had plenty of room for 8" tall 3 digit numbers.
Current trends are to have bodywork for no room for numbers.
Solutions:
1) Put on bodywork that has space for numbers, if the rules allow. I built my own subframe for my SV to run bodywork that had room for 8" numbers. Unfortunately most people have neither the skills nor the equipment to design and build their own subframe (mine dropped 7.5 lbs from the bike). ISTR that CCS will allow you to run any bodywork.
2) Put on some sort of number plates. Liking or not liking is irrelevant. No. I don't really like them, but it is one solution.
3) Get the manufacturers to make bodywork to fit numbers again.
The 'problem' is not going to be solved on the CCS Fan Forum.
My solution to everything is not number plates, but it is fun to to see the reactions of the people who think they are too ugly to put on their bike. Playing devils advocate can be fun, although it can get to be boring when it is like shooting fish in a barrel. You need to get a thicker skin and realize when you are being played. Smit away, ouch it hurts so much.
GP bikes have room for numbers because they are designed for racing. The 125s and 250s (which drag is a significant problem) have larger tail sections. I can put 3 6" numbers on my 125 tail. For pure top speed, a tail like the XBRR (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photos/26507ATL_8318.jpg) would work best. However there can be problems with handling in cross winds and during rapid transitions. Also such tails would probably not be hot sellers for street riders. For street bikes, form does not always follow function.
Quote from: LMsports on March 15, 2008, 11:45:54 PM
Good thing for us is that bolt on number plates would also be altering the supersport condition of the fairings even though they would technically make the bike less aerodynamic and be a detriment to performance. But of course...those are AMA supersport rules not CCS.
But if I'm ever asked to bolt a performance robbing apparatus onto my motorcycle other than myself, I'm sure I'll respectfully decline...
One thing about aerodynamics - looks can be deceiving. Adding number plates may or may not have a significant affect on performance. Without a wind tunnel or proper track testing, just looking at it does not give the answer. You might be able to add plates and make your motorcycle more aerodynamic. Motorcycles are actually quite poor shapes aerodynamically. You have to be concerned with not just air moving around, but also through the motorcycle - radiators being one problem.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on March 15, 2008, 07:46:33 PM
Buell XB series have pretty much a non-existant tail. But theres no reason that the aftermarket bodywork companies couldnt 'finesse' their replacement tails with more number space.
I was looking at pictures of the XB bikes, and in stock trim the tail is actually the 2-up seat, but for race trim wouldn't the tail basically cover that area? Even the optional rear seat cowls (that either cover the rear of the seat or work in conjunction with a solo seat) that I've seen for them seem to provide enough surface area for even 3-4" numbers, which we know that CCS will allow.
I still haven't seen a newer bike (in race trim) that doesn't have room for at least small numbers on the tail.
But TZRACER is correct - if no room, then # plates, and if they're not legal because the stock tail shape must be used then that's an issue for the sanctioning organization (kind of like all the model specific rules they make now, such as case armour, airbox mods, etc.).
Quote from: tzracer on March 16, 2008, 10:59:23 AM
Smit away, ouch it hurts so much.
While in the past I have smtied someone once or twice I don't think I smited you. I haven't been paying attention to the whole Karma/Smite thing because there are some real winner's on here who get a big kick out of smiting people.
Quote from: tzracer on March 16, 2008, 10:59:23 AM
No. I don't really like them, but it is one solution.
There it is! I knew it! Thank god, because if you really did like number plates I probably would have written you off and never read your posts again. :biggrin:
Quote from: Team_Serpent on March 17, 2008, 01:35:53 PM
There it is! I knew it! Thank god, because if you really did like number plates I probably would have written you off and never read your posts again. :biggrin:
Not liking them has never stopped me from using them. Really didn't have much choice 20 years ago.
What if using number plates was the difference between racing or not racing?
tz, you're quite a character. :D
Quote from: Team_Serpent on March 15, 2008, 03:07:21 PM
Actually now that I think about it, I kinda like it. I think I'm going to experiment for the next week. Anytime someone comes to me with a problem I'm going to tell them "put a number plate on it" :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
I'll let ya know how it goes :biggrin:
Well it's been a little more than a week and while I've been getting a kick out of this most are left confussed.
The two biggest responces at the office are -
"Do what?"
or
"Where do we keep those?" :lmao:
Where do we keep those? That's fantastic!
Quote from: Mongo on March 21, 2008, 03:22:28 PM
Where do we keep those? That's fantastic!
Yeah, the first time I got that response I busted a gut big time, it was just as funny the second time :biggrin: