Who would be the best person to catch a cheater?
Congratulations!
Are you trying to get yourself torn down at your next AMA national? :biggrin:
just a little rumor i heard... we will know soon if it is true....
LOL!
Tech can either generate gray area or eliminate it.
The gray area has been pretty wide for a long time. It's going to be gone now. The manufacturer teams surely are on notice.
Probably won't change the results of the riding, but maybe some of the foolishness will be eliminated at the top and in the middle.
ok enough double talk ... spill the beans. inquiring minds want to know.
Quote from: mdr14 on February 16, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
Who would be the best person to catch a cheater?
Chris Hansen?
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl153%2FEthired%2F1184367762037.jpg&hash=c300b5aa03bfc45136347373b98363678fc84123)
Quote from: Dr749 on February 18, 2008, 10:16:51 AM
The best person to catch a cheater is one that already knows how to cheat. But the person that is catching the cheater is the one with the proper ethics.
Ya been reading from Smokey Yunick's book of cheating?:lmao:
Quote from: Jeff on February 18, 2008, 10:04:50 AM
Chris Hansen?
No, he would be the guy to catch a scammer or a pedophile. :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :biggrin:
"Why don't you have a seat right over there..."
"just what exactly were you doing with those camshafts in your pocket"
"umm err, I was just gonna... oh hey! is this camera on?!?! HI MOM!!! Can I go now?"
Quote from: spyderchick on February 18, 2008, 03:19:29 PM
"Why don't you have a seat right over there..."
:biggrin:
In a pedophile those words probably evoke the same emotions we have when we hear, "License and registration"...
Carry Andrew?
Quote from: dylanfan53 on February 18, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
:biggrin:
In a pedophile those words probably evoke the same emotions we have when we hear, "License and registration"...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Quote from: Johnny B on February 18, 2008, 08:13:57 PM
Carry Andrew?
Yeah, that is a good shot, Johnny. Not right, but...
Bill Belichick? Oh wait, that's to get caught, not to catch...
I don't think you can catch them...... they're pretty fast!
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjustinsullivan.com%2Fdubbozoo%2Fcheetah2.jpg&hash=1f31fd94218af0a3a80e24a2c00ae13dfb9ba061)
Ok, it took me a second to get that one...
Cue the rim shot. ba-dum-dum
silly Iowan... just cause you call soda a "pop" and you warsh your cah doesnt mean cheetah ends in an "R"... or has all that chlorine fogged your brain.
BTW, the Notorious P.A.T-rick and I will be at the hockey game the 28th, you workin?
Warped sense of humor here..... I was actually going down the road of a New York accent with that one.
Won't be there...... Leaving for San Antonio on the 26th for 5 days to get the last of the chlorine purged from my system
yeah its more of a nor-easter "Maine"iac thang... LInder and steve used to go out for Pizzer in Bah Habah
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Feb/080228a.htm
:biggrin:
here come the :spank:
Old news to some. LOL!
I'm trying to figure out which manufacturer team hasn't blatantly cheated, but the AMA allowed to get away with it. I think it's going to be good.
Well, it is a professional racing series. There should be accountability down the results. Jim and his folks will really take a look to see what's happening, I'm sure.
I'm curious how long one would keep his job if he outed a factory team for cheating.
I have personally seen a disasembled supersport engine that belonged to a factory support team, and suffice to say that it didn't even resemble it's stock counterpart...
It would appear that the AMA knows what's going on. They just choose not to do anything about it.
Well, what are the teams going to do? Are they going to race ASRA?
This IS the last year that the AMA will do anything other than putting a stamp on the series for the new promoter in 2009.
We already have a rule book for '09. If AMA has any balls they will stand by that for '09. It's too late to give up that book to a new promoter now.
I can see factories pulling out if they do that. They are already unhappy with what's going on.
Isn't this an interesting conversation now...
Dunno. Pretty easy for anyone reasonable to measure a homologated crank, look at a book and see the wear limit, and then check the one in the bike.
Having the balls to make the decision to hold the only professional motorcycle road racing series in the US to a standard that reasonable, I think that's a bigger deal.
Glad Kaiser put Jim and his guys in position, and I'm glad that the AMA finally is standing next to their rule book.
So if Jim is now a technical inspector does that mean he and/or 4&6 will not be competing at AMA events?
Didn't know if someone would look on something like that as a conflict of interest.
Jim no longer works for Safety First
Quote from: weggieman on March 11, 2008, 06:13:49 PM
Jim no longer works for Safety First
I think what Jason was asking was whether Jim's shop does any prep work for any AMA rider. Legitimate question. Maybe Jim will be by to explain.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Mar/080311z.htm
Quote from: 61Ex on March 11, 2008, 07:09:54 PM
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Mar/080311z.htm
:pop:
Jim works on Scott Ryans bikes and he races ama
Jim does still own the shop and the shop still does build motors as well as perform other work for bikes that may/can/will be used in the AMA.
Conflict of interest? I can't say. Obviously Keith Kizer knows what Jim does outside of the AMA, and will make sure that things in Tech are handled objectively. Whether it's another inspector inspecting a bike of Jim's shop, or whatever.
I do definitely agree that it raises an eyebrow, and I'm sure that Jim knows this as well...
It's obvious that the AMA knows this.
He certainly builds other motors and chassis that we don't know about too.
Are private riders the ones with access to special parts, tooling, and coatings that are by design supposed to be stealthy? No. Privateer cheating is usually simple. 750 in a 600, 1100 in a 750, use of Scotchbright.
Quote from: Jeff on March 12, 2008, 11:18:50 AMI do definitely agree that it raises an eyebrow
I'm sure some neck hairs as well :biggrin:
Quote from: Super Dave on March 12, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
It's obvious that the AMA knows this.
Obviously the old AMA knows this, it will be interesting to see what DMG's view will be.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 12, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
He certainly builds other motors and chassis that we don't know about too.
Who's keeping count?
Quote from: Super Dave on March 12, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
Are private riders the ones with access to special parts, tooling, and coatings that are by design supposed to be stealthy? No. Privateer cheating is usually simple. 750 in a 600, 1100 in a 750, use of Scotchbright.
I guess it would depend on how simple the privateer is, who they know and how honest they are.
Scotchbrite?
Quote from: crimsoncloak on March 12, 2008, 02:25:36 PM
Scotchbrite?
That is in reference to something that happened at Louden/New Hampshire Intl Speedway a while ago. I don't remember the names, but a dude who placed top 3 or something was torn down after the race and DQ'd because "metal had been removed from the head." The engine builder had used a Scothbrite pad to polish the head.....
It was something like that
It was Chouinard and it was supposed to be about using scoth brite on the valves.
I have an interesting photo everyone might want to see.
My brother happened to be down at Daytona and shot over 800 photos of the weekend.
I was browsing and came across Josh Hayes engine Tech photos! There is a photo that is his motor split apart where you can see a polished crank! The photo is a bit blurry and its all he has.
Here is a link to the photo! http://a583.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/83/l_a1f724f17dbf4f43028e9063052a137e (http://a583.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/83/l_a1f724f17dbf4f43028e9063052a137e)
Here is a link to his AMA tech photo album. http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=33478601&albumID= (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=33478601&albumID=)
Check out his photos of the pits. They look pretty good!
Jason Farrell
I'm going to try posting the link again. lt's not working!
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It's on his myspace page of photos. The link is not working because you have to be signed into myspace to view it?
Damn that sucks. You can see all the different FX bikes engines in teardown and the tech officials in the technical viewing area. I'll see what I can do to get the photos posted up here. Suggestions anyone?
Here try to click on his myspace page with this link. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=33478601 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=33478601)
Then view his photos by clicking his default photo or the link to his photo albums. Then select AMA Technical Inspection album.
the default photo takes you to myspace login.
How 'bout you right click on the pic, save them to your PC and either post them up here (click REPLY, don't use the quick-reply box, click ADDITIONAL OPTIONS and attach the photos) or email them to me jeff@cbr600rr.com and I'll post them.
Jason is supposed to be working on my bikes so i will do it for him so he can get back to work, here is the pic of the polished crank and one pic of what my bikes will look like for this year for your viewing pleasure
Here's my crank fresh from Falicon. It's almost to pretty to put in the engine.
Quote from: gpz11 on March 13, 2008, 01:00:17 PM
Here's my crank fresh from Falicon. It's almost to pretty to put in the engine.
I can tell from that photo that you're a cheater! :err: :biggrin: :lmao:
Naw, the wife knows about it. :biggrin:
Quote from: spyderchick on March 13, 2008, 01:14:48 PM
I can tell from that photo that you're a cheater! :err: :biggrin: :lmao:
Quote from: gpz11 on March 13, 2008, 01:28:41 PM
Naw, the wife knows about it. :biggrin:
Best come back all week! :thumb: :biggrin:
Nothing wrong with pictures of a man's polished crank. Here is mine next to a stocker.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F155%2F428158745_38c5172439.jpg&hash=efa432f6b088da851c7b8455ce76fdc9eb2fd339)
It really is too pretty to be hidden inside the motor.
We also lightened up the main gears.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F165%2F428158747_6103225e22.jpg&hash=602093e3ac4d8afb156d88df1c11b9b090881d42)
Now if I can only figure out how to ride to match the abilities of my equipment.
George
You two are now on the growing list of racers that are not allowed to bitch about ANYTHING financially related to racing!! LOL!!!
we now interupt your regularly scheduled programming with a list of reasons why ................`s crank had to be lightened in order to race this year!!
(please fill in the blank with your favorite racers name!) :kicknuts:
How much for the gear lightening? I have 4~5 sets of gears just like those that need to go on a diet.
Quote from: crimsoncloak on March 15, 2008, 08:19:40 PM
How much for the gear lightening? I have 4~5 sets of gears just like those that need to go on a diet.
I think it was somewhere in the $150 - $200 range. It wasn't exactly cheap and it is not a huge amount of weight that you are reducing - but - I had the motor out and transmission apart so we decided to go ahead and do it.
George
Besides changing engine performance, how much does crank-lightening affect required steering/transition effort? Is that a major reason for why people have their crank's lightened, or is it not really a consideration? Thanks.
http://tinyurl.com/2yj76c
Quote from: kl3640 on March 16, 2008, 10:20:55 PM
Besides changing engine performance, how much does crank-lightening affect required steering/transition effort? Is that a major reason for why people have their crank's lightened, or is it not really a consideration? Thanks.
On most inline fours it`s not a large part of the reasoning. I had it done once on an inline four and all I noticed was the increased acceleration. I have heard that you better have a rain bike without a lightened crank though as it affects wet weather traction!!
Quote from: Boober on March 17, 2008, 12:33:28 PM
On most inline fours it`s not a large part of the reasoning. I had it done once on an inline four and all I noticed was the increased acceleration. I have heard that you better have a rain bike without a lightened crank though as it affects wet weather traction!!
Lighter crank can have drawbacks in low traction situations (low traction and or high horsepower). Once the rear wheel begins to spin, it spins up very fast. When Eddie Lawson went to Cagiva, one of the first things he did was to get them to add weight to the crank to make the bike easier to ride. It also made the bike faster.
The crank in question obviously was just against the published rules.
They, whether it was HRC, American Honda, or Erion did it to improve the performance. Most likely reasoning would have been as simple as oil shedding and windage. Obviously, over a 200 mile race, there would be a reasonable advantage that could result given that the rider and chassis were all in order.
The thing everyone needs to realize is that at the AMA level when you have riders that can get everything out of a bike.....differences in acceleration and 1-2 hp make a difference. Placing in the top 10 at AMA costs A LOT....and for top 5 finishes it goes up exponentially. Teams are literally splitting hairs to find more out of a bike or weighs to shave a few more grams off of a supersport bike.
That's why you see guys on 600's weighing as little as possible...Ben Bostrum even shed 14 lbs. for this year because it makes a big difference on a 600.
The same is not true at club racing. Horsepower and acceleration typically arent the deciding factor.....a riders talent and experience makes the difference.
Quote from: khanson on March 18, 2008, 12:46:14 PM
The same is not true at club racing. Horsepower and acceleration typically arent the deciding factor.....a riders talent and experience makes the difference.
I absolutely agree. At the club level it doesn't matter how much money I throw at my bike, I am going to have to ride my best to even be able to hope for a top 5 finish. That said, I like to have every advantage that I can get and we have had fun building up my superbike.
The guys who have time to get out on the track and race more often and just get seat time are going to have an advantage over those of us who have jobs that keep us away from the track.
George
So is it a conflict of interest if the tech guy works for a shop that builds engines, then a week before they are planning a teardown the shop calls all their 'A' riders to tell them they are going to be torn down and to remove said illegal parts or ride a completely different bike?
Yes this happens at a certain club that isnt CCS all the time, this year (for the first time in 4+ years) there is an independant tech guy, hopefully it will change
Well, I guess people would be concerned IF the riders they build engines for won all the races.
Quote from: Clarkie on March 24, 2008, 10:19:39 AM
So is it a conflict of interest if the tech guy works for a shop that builds engines, then a week before they are planning a teardown the shop calls all their 'A' riders to tell them they are going to be torn down and to remove said illegal parts or ride a completely different bike?
Yes this happens at a certain club that isnt CCS all the time, this year (for the first time in 4+ years) there is an independant tech guy, hopefully it will change
Hayes' bike was torn down because he won, not because it was time for some random inspection. If a rider with a 4&6 motor won the 200, as unlikely as that may be, he would have been torn down as well.
Honda knew that their bike was going to be inspected at the conclusion of the race. They were counting on the AMA to do what they've always done and look the other way. Good for Rashid in this case for holding them accountable.
Quote from: gpz11 on March 24, 2008, 11:58:57 AM
Well, I guess people would be concerned IF the riders they build engines for won all the races.
well they had won the #1 plate 4-5 times in a row and almost all the MW championships, so yeah, it made a difference
you don't have to have a cheater motor to win a ccs #1 plate in the midwest. you just have to have a big check book and the desire to race a lot of races over he weekend. there are several people over the last decade in the midwest who won (bought) the #1 plate. i would agree that the rider is more of the equation untill you get to the top 5 riders in the midwest. i have raced with these guys i know my motor is legal and with the exception of one of those people my bike is equal to the rest. so i don't think it is fair to accuse any won of cheating. besides if you think they are put your money where your mouth is and tear them down.
this is a non-CCS club where the premier class (like UN-GP) top ten run those plates
Are we are still talking about 4&6? Unless I'm wrong and I very well could be, 4&6 was building engines for SafetyFirst for AMA last year. Who did they build engines for running in CCS?
Quote from: Clarkie on March 24, 2008, 06:00:33 PM
well they had won the #1 plate 4-5 times in a row and almost all the MW championships, so yeah, it made a difference
i said several time, not a CCS club, there are other clubs out there
Oh sorry, I must have missed that part. So what club are we talking about that 4&6 built cheater motors for?
Quote from: Clarkie on March 25, 2008, 09:18:32 AM
i said several time, not a CCS club, there are other clubs out there
dude, you need to read my first post, never said 4&6, never said CCS, I asked if it is a conflict of interest
Well, I'd say yes, if the person building the engines was the tech inspector and his engines were winning all the races, then yes, you have a problem (conflict of interest). I'd go after the organization about it.
Quote from: Clarkie on March 25, 2008, 09:56:27 AM
dude, you need to read my first post, never said 4&6, never said CCS, I asked if it is a conflict of interest
Quote from: double_d on March 24, 2008, 10:23:05 PM
you don't have to have a cheater motor to win a ccs #1 plate in the midwest. you just have to have a big check book and the desire to race a lot of races over he weekend. there are several people over the last decade in the midwest who won (bought) the #1 plate.
It's been bought several times for sure.
The performance index thing helps. You're right, there are a lot of capable bikes on the grid, and fast riders still win the races.
I hear a lot of talk about Brian Hall's bikes and how fast they are, and I think a lot of people are misinformed. Farrell does a good job putting them together, and they are very quick, but they're nothing special. I've seen Brian's bikes on the dyno and last year they made less than 120hp.
It's also worth noting that Brian runs completely stock forks on both his bikes.
I hate when guys use equipment as an excuse. As though Hall has some super-prototype mystery bike that rides itself as long as you throw stacks of $100 bills at it.
This is not directed at double-d, he just brought up a good point...
I know this is off-topic - just came to mind.......
I think everyone would have to agree that in the last 2 years that Brian has won the #1 plate in the MW Region, he has consistantly been the fastest rider overall. His winning the top plate has reflected what it should.
Not to take anything away from Johnny Moore, Stumpy or Doc Stein, but Brian's results didn't come from entering as many classes as possible to generate points. Those guys won it within the rules as did Brian.
kind of makes you wonder about Duhamel's charge to the front of course i think the big cheating is in the electroincs changing maps during the cool down and using a car key fob in the pocket while it's on the dyno is the ultmate. just think what smokey would have done with transistors
I cannot believe how stupid this has become. We are all sooooo much more stupid for wasting the time reading this thread! :kicknuts:
Quote from: TommyG on March 26, 2008, 09:31:49 AM
I cannot believe how stupid this has become. We are all sooooo much more stupid for wasting the time reading this thread! :kicknuts:
I guess you havent read the number plate thread!
Quote from: TommyG on March 26, 2008, 09:31:49 AM
I cannot believe how stupid this has become.
Wow. I totally underestimated you Tommy.
Hey you guys, stop picking on Tommy! He's just having a bad hair day :biggrin:
Hell, I think Tommy is the one with the cheater motors. Yeah...tear him down!
guys, the motor is not a cheater motor "UNLESS" the racer enters the bike that the motor resides in a class its not legal for.
As an engine builder, I build the engines the way my customers ask. 95% of my customers say they want an engine built with in the confines of the rule book for supersport CCS or AMA Supersport. and with a bike off the showroom floor, there are only so many "LEGAL" ways to build said motor...and retain any semblance of reliability.
To say a shop builds cheater motors for club level guys is really unfair. The club guys know what they are getting and what they are paying for. Its up to them to register for the correct classes.
In the CCS midwest ranks, there is only one guy that i ever hear being complained about his bike being too fast in a CCS "SUPERSPORT" race and it is not Brian Hall ( or Tommy G. :ass:). But then again no one ever tears him down... My understanding is that "they" usually beat him anyway so why bother.
So Matt, you're just an enabler right?
LMAO... I'm just bustin your nuts...
I can't wait for this season to get started.
Who getting tore down first!!
Everyone is going to want to tear down the Speed Tech bikes now that we've got some more power on tap this year!!
Good luck everyone. See you at the races.
I wonder who the cheater guy is? :biggrin:
Quote from: LMsports on March 26, 2008, 11:33:32 PM
Hell, I think Tommy is the one with the cheater motors. Yeah...tear him down!
I`ll take your money all day long Mr 2mm over Ten Kate motor!!
Quote from: TommyG on March 27, 2008, 03:23:12 PM
I`ll take your money all day long Mr 2mm over Ten Kate motor!!
:pop:
Robby Wobby knows I`m just kidding...... :spank: Take that BITCH!
8)
Hey, it was easier than doing that gym thing again. Thanks for ruining it weiner.
I saw the pictures of crankshafts. I'm not sure of the rules so are these lightened cranks supersport legal?
Cranks reworked in any sanctioning bodies SS classes-----NOT!!!!
Lightened cranks are absolutley not SS legal. It would be legal to run in any class based on superbike or GP rules.
To me, the PITA factor of post race tech inspection for SS racing isn't worth it...