Now that the bump list is up, and there seems to be a case-by-case process in lieu of the 400 point requirement, I was wondering if I should ask for my white plates next season. I just barely missed the 400 mark, and would have made it easily had I not been taken out in the September round. Overall, I did OK in the amateur ranks this season (4th in HWSS and 5th in HWSB) racing less than half the events. I did manage to get on the box for all my races at Road America, which I was VERY happy about. My laptimes have dropped considerably from the start of the season, with my PR at BHF being a 1:14.2 on a GSXR with stock 2-yr old suspension. That made it a bit hairy but after I freshened it up I was pretty consistently in the 14' and 15's without feeling as though I was over my head or pushing too hard. Yes, I know its not all that fast, and that is one of the reasons I'm thinking I'd like to try racing against the EXs next season. It's often said you get faster by racing people better than yourself, and above all, improvement is my goal. That said, there are some REALLY fast guys and I don't want to be a rolling chicane or come in DFL every time out. So, should I stay a yellow plate and see how far I can go? or do I petition for the white plates and get my ass handed to me each weekend, but learn a little something in the process?
definitely go ex, there is nothing to gain in the am ranks. sponsors dont care how many am races/championships you win (its been my experience that the relationships i built at the track were far more valuable than resume stats) and 1:14's @ bhf is pretty fast. you will be pretty competitive as an ex with times like that. hope to see you out there! :thumb:
No! The world needs Yellow Plated Sand Baggers! (they're on the endangered list, you know) ;)
First year of racing? Well, you could go either way. You've got to sit down and think about the cost factors, what you want to do in the future, and anything else that might come into play. If you can't afford reasonable upgrade or you don't know how to use them, it might be reasonable to consider staying amateur for one more full year. Or maybe a half year.
If that was your second year of racing? I'd go expert.
Technically, this past season would be my second. I originally got my license in '06 at the Wegman Weekend and just raced one ultralight and 2 LW races on my KTM supermoto, if that counts. So, one season + 3 races.
BTW, I'm not sure there's anything I can upgrade on my planned racebike, if I ever get it back. :banghead: It's a 749R. (and maybe the KTM now that they've split Ultralight again)
Geometry is an on going upgrade. And that doesn't require anything more than knowledge. A good deal, but, often, making geometry changes are more valuable than spending money on high zoot parts.
Quote from: Super Dave on December 18, 2007, 01:51:52 PM
Geometry is an on going upgrade. And that doesn't require anything more than knowledge. A good deal, but, often, making geometry changes are more valuable than spending money on high zoot parts.
I've got some connections going on. I've talked to some folks that have raced that particular bike at a high level for advice on that very topic.
i just missed it this year myself and sent a letter anyway wanting to stay yellow. kind of pointless but it was such a good letter.
I say go for the white. if i end up racing this year, i'll need all of the help i can get. one less guy on the grid that will pass me is always a plus in my book.
You got it all wrong.... you're supposed to do like three years of trackdays, then come out and dominate.... haven't you learned anything?! ;)
I agree with sobottka... 14's isn't exactly slow at BHF
Go expert, don't be a pansy.
you'll learn more in expert....If you want to get FAST, do it. THe career expectancy is short for a road racer........go expert and don't waste time....my .02
I made the mistake of bumping myself up to Expert, so I could race with my buddies and be one step closer to my AMA dream.....Big mistake for me....
What ended up happening was instead of battling for a podium, I found myself battling for 10th, not winning any contingency, and flat out being demoralized every weekend. On top of not winning any contingency, to be truly competitive, your bike has to be 100%. 14's at BHF is good, but finding the last 2-3 seconds to be with the fast experts is extremely difficult for most of us. You can only improve your riding so much, the fast experts are typically on the best equipment and unless your extremely talented, you need equal equipment to keep up, this means even more $$$
The shelf life of most racers is short. My opinion is every racer deserves one stellar year as an Amateur before they go expert. Most of us can't compete for podiums once we make the leap. There are always fast Amateurs to push you and you can even catch some experts from the first wave..... There is plenty of time to go expert!!
IMO it all boils down to $$ and your goals. If money isn't a concern, bump up it will make you a little faster, but costs a lot more. Put your ego aside and base your decision on your financial situation and goals.
Good luck whatever you decide!!
Kurt
www.d2cycles.com
Quote from: smitemebitches on December 18, 2007, 02:22:28 PM
You got it all wrong.... you're supposed to do like three years of trackdays, then come out and dominate.... haven't you learned anything?! ;)
I agree with sobottka... 14's isn't exactly slow at BHF
I completely disagree... I think you everyone should buy an Ex AMA bike and race it right out of the box. Screw practicing or working on your skills first. Just take your dumb ass out there and hope for the best. I mean seriously, why prepare for what you are intending to do? Why spend time with those loser trackday guys when you could be out in a race, with zero experience, hoping to god you live through the day ....
I am not speaking about this post imparticular, just the morons that continue to whine because an amatuer kicked their ass from the 2nd wave...
:ahhh:
Dustin,
I'm guessing your goal is to take over the lead in the smite count by Jan. 1st.......
Right?? :biggrin:
Quote from: red900 on December 19, 2007, 12:15:00 AM
I completely disagree... I think you everyone should buy an Ex AMA bike and race it right out of the box. Screw practicing or working on your skills first. Just take your dumb ass out there and hope for the best. I mean seriously, why prepare for what you are intending to do? Why spend time with those loser trackday guys when you could be out in a race, with zero experience, hoping to god you live through the day ....
some folks take it more seriously than others. my business is the only thing i take seriously. i've had far more fun battling it out to keep from being dead last than i ever have in a track day and i've never gone out with the slightest intent of winning. ever. i'd like to but i'll never lose sleep over it. the enjoyment of the competition itself is just as enjoyable regardless of where you are in the pack. at least for me anyway. i guess i'd rather go home happy about what happened rather than leaving pissed about what didn't. or are you just upset that i didn't do any track days last year but i did buy five of them for other people but made the stipulation that they couldn't be used for nesba track days? maybe i'm off. i dunno. or maybe something from the friend of a friend. just a guess.
and i had 3 bikes.
:lmao:
Quote from: red900 on December 19, 2007, 12:15:00 AM
I completely disagree... I think you everyone should buy an Ex AMA bike and race it right out of the box. Screw practicing or working on your skills first. Just take your dumb ass out there and hope for the best. I mean seriously, why prepare for what you are intending to do? Why spend time with those loser trackday guys when you could be out in a race, with zero experience, hoping to god you live through the day ....
I am not speaking about this post imparticular, just the morons that continue to whine because an amatuer kicked their ass from the 2nd wave...
Quote from: howlieboy on December 18, 2007, 10:03:09 PM
I made the mistake of bumping myself up to Expert, so I could race with my buddies and be one step closer to my AMA dream.....Big mistake for me....
What ended up happening was instead of battling for a podium, I found myself battling for 10th, not winning any contingency, and flat out being demoralized every weekend. On top of not winning any contingency, to be truly competitive, your bike has to be 100%. 14's at BHF is good, but finding the last 2-3 seconds to be with the fast experts is extremely difficult for most of us. You can only improve your riding so much, the fast experts are typically on the best equipment and unless your extremely talented, you need equal equipment to keep up, this means even more $$$
The shelf life of most racers is short. My opinion is every racer deserves one stellar year as an Amateur before they go expert. Most of us can't compete for podiums once we make the leap. There are always fast Amateurs to push you and you can even catch some experts from the first wave..... There is plenty of time to go expert!!
IMO it all boils down to $$ and your goals. If money isn't a concern, bump up it will make you a little faster, but costs a lot more. Put your ego aside and base your decision on your financial situation and goals.
Good luck whatever you decide!!
Kurt
www.d2cycles.com
good point, i can see where my advise may not fit everyone...
Quote from: red900 on December 19, 2007, 12:15:00 AM
I completely disagree... I think you everyone should buy an Ex AMA bike and race it right out of the box. Screw practicing or working on your skills first. Just take your dumb ass out there and hope for the best. I mean seriously, why prepare for what you are intending to do? Why spend time with those loser trackday guys when you could be out in a race, with zero experience, hoping to god you live through the day ....
I am not speaking about this post imparticular, just the morons that continue to whine because an amatuer kicked their ass from the 2nd wave...
Dude, everything is not about you. You need to get over yourself just a little bit.
You all have to make the decision about what your goals are and what your budget allows you to do. But I feel that Amateur is not a place for people to distinguish themselves as a racer. Everyone should go out and race as an amateur and learn "how to race" effectively until they are comfortable with the racecraft and their ability to hold a line, pass, and be passed. Once this is accomplished and you are skilled enough to keep up with the Experts then bump up.
Someone has to be last in every race. I don't think it's reasonable that everyone tries to stay AM so long that they are competitive as soon as they go expert. Just my .02.
I think there should be a three tier system.
First, an actual amateur class that has three basic classes based only on displacement. Lightweight, Middleweight, and Unlimited. No contingency, no trophies, no championships. Limited time frame for staying it this classification. Maybe 19 months.
At the top, an expert pro class with limited class structures. Increased cost basis for entries with a little longer race and potential purses. Contingency and points. Your number one plate holder would be the one that wins Unlimited Grand Prix.
Between them would be a potential destination program for many riders. Call it sportsman. It would have the same excessive classes that CCS currently has now. Championship point, overall points, contingency for products. Obviously, coming from the actual amateur class, you would come here. You wouldn't be required to go expert pro ever. But an expert pro could come back down to sportsman.
Ok, talk among yourselves...
Quote from: howlieboy on December 18, 2007, 10:03:09 PM
I made the mistake of bumping myself up to Expert, so I could race with my buddies and be one step closer to my AMA dream.....Big mistake for me....
What ended up happening was instead of battling for a podium, I found myself battling for 10th, not winning any contingency, and flat out being demoralized every weekend. On top of not winning any contingency, to be truly competitive, your bike has to be 100%. 14's at BHF is good, but finding the last 2-3 seconds to be with the fast experts is extremely difficult for most of us. You can only improve your riding so much, the fast experts are typically on the best equipment and unless your extremely talented, you need equal equipment to keep up, this means even more $$$
The shelf life of most racers is short. My opinion is every racer deserves one stellar year as an Amateur before they go expert. Most of us can't compete for podiums once we make the leap. There are always fast Amateurs to push you and you can even catch some experts from the first wave..... There is plenty of time to go expert!!
IMO it all boils down to $$ and your goals. If money isn't a concern, bump up it will make you a little faster, but costs a lot more. Put your ego aside and base your decision on your financial situation and goals.
Good luck whatever you decide!!
Kurt
www.d2cycles.com
Good points, all something to consider. It seems as an Amateur, I'd have a better shot of getting a bit of contingency to make racing a bit more affordable. I also like the idea of finishing well, and it would be nice to maybe chase a championship. I'm sure I'd have to lose a little bit more time, but I think it could be done.
At the same time, my ego thinks just like mikendzel and says "Go Expert, don't be a pansy." And I'm sure that any wins or good finishes I might get as an AM wouldn't mean as much to me personally, since the guys I was really trying to catch towards the end of the season are bumping.
When I'm actually out racing, its the battles that I love, whether for first or 8th. Most of the time I don't have a clue which it is until I come in anyway. What really hooked me on racing was my first weekend, I had a great battle with Hawk in Ultralight. I thought it was for 5th or 6th, but it was still a blast. (it was for 1st, and damn motards suck on the straight)
I got a few of those in AM, but not as many as I would've liked.
Another consideration I thought of is why I'd be racing in each, and what that means as far as my schedule. If I were to stay AM, I would be racing to see how far I could go, which means a full schedule. As an EX, I'd be racing for fun and to learn a little something from the fast guys. That means I'd go racing when and to the extent that its convenient and affordable, leaving me a few weekends to go try supermoto racing or do some dirt riding or trackdays with friends.
And, if I read the rules correctly, an EX license would allow me to give Moto-ST a shot........
Last year was my 1st year that I really raced,did 5 event's and had a win,a 3rd,some 4th's,couple 6th and 7th's.My time' sat R.A. were in the low 30's,and at BHF last reace was in the 14's 15's,.OK,not bad,not good enough to compete in white plate
for sure.Even this year,where I plan to do the whole Midwest schedule,there will alway's be someone faster,even though most of the rider's that were ahead of me got bumped.It's great to finish well,that's what's it's about,but I have a healthy respect for the sport and its participant's
and speaking only for myself,it's about the process.I think I still have too much to learn,to petition for white plate,and frankly want to earn my stripes and not take a short cut.My simple goal is to earn my white plate,expert road racing level by earning it by the natural process.At 47 year's old,that would be a great accomplishment for me and if I win an F-40 championship,great.If I finish top 5's in the rest,great.I do this for fun and stress relief,and chasing time's,win's can put me on my head,if they come by riding smooth and sticking to basic's great.Looking forward to riding next year.
Bottom line, if you are racing just to win or podium, at some point you will be extremely disappointed.
You know, if you love the sport, it won't matter what color your plate is, you'll be having fun. Also, don't ever say to me that 'second place is the first loser'. It shows a lack of respect for the commitment and sportsmanship that your competitors offer.
Set your goals, get a plan to accomplish that and then take the journey. You might accomplish everything and then some, or you may fail miserably and learn something. Either way, make it important to you.
Okay, I'm starting to sound like Dr Phil, so I'm off the soap box. :preachon: :biggrin:
yeah Dave I've always liked the 3 tier system idea... is it realistic? From a business standpoint is it econmically viable?
I cant help but thiink the top 2 tiers would flourish... which is what you want. A constant revolving door of the lower tier.
I just dont see a point in AM contingency... OR, limit the amount of winnings any indiviual racer can recieve? I just think there needs to be a more strict policy to promote full expert grids. More factory payout, more contingency, more longevity in the upper ranks. The series needs new racers to build the AM ranks, I think everyone agree's on that. It needs the returning racers in the Ex field.
Quote from: jigs on December 19, 2007, 10:07:48 AM
BHF last reace was in the 14's 15's,.OK,not bad,not good enough to compete in white plate
for sure.
not true... i scored a 5th or 6th in ex/mwss @ bhf doing low 14's last may.
I hear ya Rob,but there were 3-4 Am. rider's doing 12's,and I know alot of expert's were 10's to 12's.I know I have no buissness trying ti ride at the pace,as we all know,that 2-3 second's can be an eternity.I just want one more year of expierience,and with new suspension and a freshened up motor,maybe I can run by the end of the year comfortably at 13's 14's,and if I run all the races aaI'll get bumped next year anyway.By the way,we never met but I think my buddy Eddie Hodges might have buoght your R-6??
I say go expert. Technically you don't have to but you will learn a lot and become faster. You have to be humble with yourself though. Don't be pissed off that you will not be on the podium every weekend. Why did you start racing and doing track days? Because it's fun rite? Because you enjoy being at the track. If you can keep it in your head that you're out there to have fun, you'll be fine. But if you get pissed off because you aren't that fastest guy out there it isn't worth it. The class you will be racing in is very competitive. Don't sell yourself short though. You're a smart, good, fast rider. Just try to keep your head and make the rite decisions out on the track. It's not a job, your life doesn't depend on it. Go out, race expert your first year and have fun and stay out of the ambulance.
Last year being a first year expert was my toughest year racing by far. Between issues getting my bike together, and me not making good decisions on the track made it tough for me. I've done a lot of thinking, and I plan to stay being a racer because I love it so much. I just don't plan on stressing myself out about it anymore. I go to the track to get away from the normal grind and stress, not to add to it.
If everyone delayed bumping up before they were kicking ass in AM, there would be about 3 new experts each year, and some would never get their white plates. I'm taking my bump, and going from LW from MW at the same time. I know full well I'll be near the back of the pack for much of 08 and have no doubt that I'll be caught and passed by some fast AM's in combined races. It's the challenge and potential for improvement that keeps me interested.
Seems to me that if you've even considered requesting a bump, you should go ahead and do it. Far more people seem to debate going in the other direction and petitioning to stay AM for that extra sandbag year.
Quote from: RSimmons on December 18, 2007, 01:45:41 PMBTW, I'm not sure there's anything I can upgrade on my planned racebike, if I ever get it back. :banghead: It's a 749R. (and maybe the KTM now that they've split Ultralight again)
FYI Rob, the split, along with the rule change to allow SVs has been postponed until '09. At least if my memory is correct from what it said on the license packet that I don't have in front of me. So for '08 it will still be combined. If it makes any difference, even though AM/EX Ultralight was scored together all year, for some reason they're split for the end of year awards. Never thought I'd win a championship trophy for coming in last/second last most of the time. :ahhh:
Interesting that someone would earn the bump and pettition to stay back in yellow.I'll gladly take it next year and go back to school!!
Quote from: jigs on December 19, 2007, 11:15:38 AM
Interesting that someone would earn the bump and pettition to stay back in yellow.I'll gladly take it next year and go back to school!!
The original post was about bumping to EX because he was 'this close' to having enough points.
People who petition to stay AM have their reasons, might be the classes they were running, or maybe they really want to try to get a championship. Since it's in the rules that you can do it, it's all good until the rule is changed.
Quote from: spyderchick on December 19, 2007, 11:29:46 AM
The original post was about bumping to EX because he was 'this close' to having enough points.
People who petition to stay AM have their reasons, might be the classes they were running, or maybe they really want to try to get a championship. Since it's in the rules that you can do it, it's all good until the rule is changed.
Exactly. (Its also in the title of the thread that I'd have to petition for EX, clearly implying that I did not get the bump)
BTW, thanks go out to everyone that has or will contribute constructive thoughts and advice to the thread. I really appreciate the insight and different viewpoints. Sometimes seeing things through another viewpoint lends much needed perspective.
and Boo for the combined Ultralight class.
Gotcha..good point
Quote from: jigs on December 19, 2007, 10:54:25 AM
...my buddy Eddie Hodges ...
i wont hold that against you....
My vote would be that anyone with a performance index of 700 or higher also gets bumped, regardless of points. 700 being an arbitrary number given only as an example....
Turn expert and don't look back. Being an expert usually means you have to get better or get left behind. Keep working on your skillz!
Added bonus is white plates look better than yellow with most paint schemes :thumb:
I remember the race you are talking about. The reason I opted to stay yellow for 2007 (which I never got to run anyway) was clearly shown going into the carousel on the white flag lap. You'll remember that we came up on a slower rider and while I opted to watch him and see where I wanted to make a pass you took us both and started to run away to the checkers. I took him on the brakes into the busstop and had to ride like hell to makeup lost ground. I hesitated on an easy pass that cost me a bunch of ground while you took me AND the pass I didn't. Passing skills are where I'm lacking and if I can't pass a slow amateur how will I practice them in expert?
It's not all about speed, if you feel your skill set is there then go for the upgrade, if you're not sure about you ability to hold a line, make a clean safe pass and be predictable then stay yellow. If you feel you are safe in all these areas then go expert, speed will come.
To quote Bart Simpson:
"Let me get this straight. We're behind the rest of our class and we're going to catch up to them by going slower than they are?"
Your not going to learn the "secrets" by continuing to ride with the beginners!
Quote from: tstruyk on December 19, 2007, 10:24:43 AM
I cant help but thiink the top 2 tiers would flourish... which is what you want. A constant revolving door of the lower tier.
I'll redirect you on that one.
You say a revolving door on the lower tier.
The historical reality is that racing organizations over time have felt a pinch from track day organizations. Why? Because twelve years ago, track time was racing. By 1994, I started to see people come back to my school program for track time specifically. They wanted the race track experience without the racing.
Now, go full circle. Individuals that are looking to race are now doing a good number of track days to prepare for racing rather than racing. Racing organizations have really failed to make any changes that address this at all. Which is too bad, I think.
A new racer wouldn't have to remain a true amateur for 19 months. That jump could be over come by some new racers in a matter of a few weekends, while others wait the "full period".
For a racing organization, I think it's money on the table waiting to be taken, but I don't expect change unless someone wants to develop a new organization and implement it. That would force the other organizations to look at it as a business option at that point.
Quote from: Super Dave on December 19, 2007, 09:12:12 AM
I think there should be a three tier system.
First, an actual amateur class that has three basic classes based only on displacement. Lightweight, Middleweight, and Unlimited. No contingency, no trophies, no championships. Limited time frame for staying it this classification. Maybe 19 months.
At the top, an expert pro class with limited class structures. Increased cost basis for entries with a little longer race and potential purses. Contingency and points. Your number one plate holder would be the one that wins Unlimited Grand Prix.
Between them would be a potential destination program for many riders. Call it sportsman. It would have the same excessive classes that CCS currently has now. Championship point, overall points, contingency for products. Obviously, coming from the actual amateur class, you would come here. You wouldn't be required to go expert pro ever. But an expert pro could come back down to sportsman.
Ok, talk among yourselves...
Ding Ding Ding.... we have a winner....
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 19, 2007, 01:59:05 AM
Dustin,
I'm guessing your goal is to take over the lead in the smite count by Jan. 1st.......
Right?? :biggrin:
At least he's earned his!
Quote from: red900 on December 19, 2007, 12:15:00 AM
I completely disagree... I think you everyone should buy an Ex AMA bike and race it right out of the box. Screw practicing or working on your skills first. Just take your dumb ass out there and hope for the best. I mean seriously, why prepare for what you are intending to do? Why spend time with those loser trackday guys when you could be out in a race, with zero experience, hoping to god you live through the day ....
I am not speaking about this post imparticular, just the morons that continue to whine because an amatuer kicked their ass from the 2nd wave...
There is merit to your post. The question is how much track time is enough? Obviously it's different for each person.
I think anyone that is intending to race (At least from pretty much EVERYONE that I've ridden with) has been a backroads rider at one time and has plenty of experience knowing what they and their bike are capable of.
I didn't even know club level racing existed until a fellow backroads rider told me about it. I went and did a Bargy licensing school one weekend and knew right then and there that I wanted to do it. I did not know that there were multitudes of trackday schools around.
So, I waited a year and had to take another school to get my CCS license. After that I started racing. I didn't set the world on fire which was fine by me. But I also never worried about taking anyone out or doing anything stupid on the track either.
Sure, someone can set back and run shitloads of trackdays for three years and check their laptimes then come out knowing what their capable of. But someone else can come from the backroads and do just as well.
Since trackdays don't typically allow passing like during a race, how is that helping you get prepared to race? The first time someone stuffs it up the inside of you is most likely going to happen during a race anyway. Other times, the passing rules are tame enough at trackdays that you might as well be on the street.
Another important part of racing is the start (don't ask me how I know about this :) Do trackdays teach this?
I say if you aren't out there dominating the AM's this year (i.e. consistently placing top 3), then you should stay back. If during the middle of the year you feel like you're kicking ass, then move up if you want.
I'll interject into this that I could never have afforded an ex-AMA pro bike when I was starting out. It's all a nice idea, but some of us have very different levels of income.
WABBIT SEASON?!?!?
How about pie?
Quote from: Super Dave on December 19, 2007, 03:48:05 PM
How about pie?
Mmmm...............wabbit pie..........Mmmmmm
Quote from: RSimmons on December 18, 2007, 01:45:41 PM
BTW, I'm not sure there's anything I can upgrade on my planned racebike, if I ever get it back. :banghead: It's a 749R.
Rob,
I told John probably a week or two ago to tell you to go get that bike. If they haven't touched it that's even better. Say the word and I will hook up the trailer and go get it. I'll even deliver it to your place or take it straight to Valley for you.
I talked to them a few days ago and it should be done this week. Lesson learned, it only took 6+ months. For future reference, does valley have a computrack?
Rob,
I just got off the phone with Brian at Valley and he said he does not have a way to check a frame as good as computrac.
6+ months? Jeesh... Did they redesign the entire machine for you?
Oh, that's right you needed frame geometry help. No, Valley doesn't have a system for that. The only computrack location I can personally recommend is Atlanta - Kent Soignier is the man.
Do you know for a fact that it needed to be straightend?
Go here http://gmdcomputrack.com/customer_information_page.htm (http://gmdcomputrack.com/customer_information_page.htm) to download a savings certificate that may help you.
Good luck and I hope it was done right.
they put it on the machine and said it was tweaked. You think I should get a second opinion?
Give me a call, if you'd rather. Tommy Cwreck has my number.
Quote from: RSimmons on December 19, 2007, 06:20:14 PM
they put it on the machine and said it was tweaked. You think I should get a second opinion?
It's your bike and your decision, I already told John what I would do. PM sent
Hello i told him the info thats when the shop caught fire
John
Quote from: r1owner on December 19, 2007, 02:51:48 PM
There is merit to your post. The question is how much track time is enough? Obviously it's different for each person.
I think anyone that is intending to race (At least from pretty much EVERYONE that I've ridden with) has been a backroads rider at one time and has plenty of experience knowing what they and their bike are capable of.
I didn't even know club level racing existed until a fellow backroads rider told me about it. I went and did a Bargy licensing school one weekend and knew right then and there that I wanted to do it. I did not know that there were multitudes of trackday schools around.
So, I waited a year and had to take another school to get my CCS license. After that I started racing. I didn't set the world on fire which was fine by me. But I also never worried about taking anyone out or doing anything stupid on the track either.
Sure, someone can set back and run shitloads of trackdays for three years and check their laptimes then come out knowing what their capable of. But someone else can come from the backroads and do just as well.
Since trackdays don't typically allow passing like during a race, how is that helping you get prepared to race? The first time someone stuffs it up the inside of you is most likely going to happen during a race anyway. Other times, the passing rules are tame enough at trackdays that you might as well be on the street.
Another important part of racing is the start (don't ask me how I know about this :) Do trackdays teach this?
I say if you aren't out there dominating the AM's this year (i.e. consistently placing top 3), then you should stay back. If during the middle of the year you feel like you're kicking ass, then move up if you want.
I can tell you that in the advanced group in Nesba, it is treated as a race practice.. But, passing should be safe. You can learn plenty of passing skills at a trackday, I have proven it.
You cannot compare riding on the street to trackdays or racing. Riding on the street is NOTHING like riding on the track. Very little skill similarity in my opinion.
Trackdays do not really teach you starting, but you could be the best starter in the nation, yet lose every race if you dont have the main skills... Starting is pretty low on the priority list of what it take is be a winner at a CCS race.
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 19, 2007, 01:59:05 AM
Dustin,
I'm guessing your goal is to take over the lead in the smite count by Jan. 1st.......
Right?? :biggrin:
This coming from you??? The professional shit starter...
Quote from: Court Jester on December 19, 2007, 04:01:20 AM
some folks take it more seriously than others. my business is the only thing i take seriously. i've had far more fun battling it out to keep from being dead last than i ever have in a track day and i've never gone out with the slightest intent of winning. ever. i'd like to but i'll never lose sleep over it. the enjoyment of the competition itself is just as enjoyable regardless of where you are in the pack. at least for me anyway. i guess i'd rather go home happy about what happened rather than leaving pissed about what didn't. or are you just upset that i didn't do any track days last year but i did buy five of them for other people but made the stipulation that they couldn't be used for nesba track days? maybe i'm off. i dunno. or maybe something from the friend of a friend. just a guess.
and i had 3 bikes.
Quite honestly, I could'nt care less about you or where you spend your money. Based on the fact that Nesba is the largest trackday organization in the nation, I think losing your money is of very little concern. Im kinda happy I dont have to deal with whiners like you when I am there.
I have had some of the best competition and the most fun at trackdays.. They work, Marshall and I have proven it.
As for this post. I would say do as your heart desires. THERE IS PLENTY OF GOOD COMPETITION IN THE AMATEUR LEAGUE!! There is also plenty to be learned as an amateur. And no matter what they say, It feel pretty damn satisfying to win as an amateur, that wont happen as an expert without lots of money and support. At least not in the 600, 750, 1000 classes. It becomes a money game as you get up in the Experts...
Seriously, Do whatever makes you happy it is your dime....
and since it feels good
Dustin Boyd
4 Time Amateur National Champion - 2007
5 Regional Championships - 2007
4 Track Championships - 2007
Yep, that felt good even if they are just amateur HAHAHAHA Smite Away!!!!!
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:12:34 PM
I can tell you that in the advanced group in Nesba, it is treated as a race practice.. But, passing should be safe. You can learn plenty of passing skills at a trackday, I have proven it.
Really? Just like a race? I've not been to a NESBA day so I'll take your word on that. I seem to remember Marshall saying quite a few times in
"The Rookie Papers" that he had a trackday mentality when it came to passing and it took him a while to overcome it.
IMO, ALL passing should be safe... racing for first place going into the last turn on the last lap should be a safe pass just as it is when I pass a car on the interstate. Will they have the same intensity... no, but there's no reason they both can't be done safely.
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:12:34 PM
You cannot compare riding on the street to trackdays or racing. Riding on the street is NOTHING like riding on the track. Very little skill similarity in my opinion.
I've done enough racing and riding on the street to know that a fast backroads rider that's never raced could come off having never been on the track and do some pretty impressive riding. Believe me there a plenty of crazy motherfuckers on the street that ride well beyond what they should... just go to killboy.com and take a look at some of those pics.
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:12:34 PM
Trackdays do not really teach you starting, but you could be the best starter in the nation, yet lose every race if you dont have the main skills... Starting is pretty low on the priority list of what it take is be a winner at a CCS race.
Not much arguement from me there, but if you've never started, or went 10 bikes into T1 during a trackday, it's not going to help you prepare for that moment. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Quite honestly, I could'nt care less about you or where you spend your money. Based on the fact that Nesba is the largest trackday organization in the nation, I think losing your money is of very little concern. Im kinda happy I dont have to deal with whiners like you when I am there.
I have had some of the best competition and the most fun at trackdays.. They work, Marshall and I have proven it.
Are you trying to get Garth's job at NESBA? :biggrin:
Quote
I've done enough racing and riding on the street to know that a fast backroads rider that's never raced could come off having never been on the track and do some pretty impressive riding. Believe me there a plenty of crazy motherfuckers on the street that ride well beyond what they should... just go to killboy.com and take a look at some of those pics.
Well, being an Ex Stunt rider that can ride over a mile on the rear wheel, Street to track is not comparable. I also teach hundreds of street riders on the track as a control rider every year, Again I still see very few natural talent type street guys...
Didn't y'all have a specific thread for this sort of thing? :D
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Quite honestly, I could'nt care less about you or where you spend your money. Based on the fact that Nesba is the largest trackday organization in the nation, I think losing your money is of very little concern. Im kinda happy I dont have to deal with whiners like you when I am there.
I have had some of the best competition and the most fun at trackdays.. They work, Marshall and I have proven it.
So when have I been a whiner??? Opinionated yes, but I don't ever recall whining about being passed unless there is a safety issue in it, which 99% of the time there is not.
Never had anybody pass me from the second wave either cause that's where I happily start from. I think you need to put down the crack pipe and lower the internet ego.
Quote from: RSimmons on December 21, 2007, 12:42:47 AM
Didn't y'all have a specific thread for this sort of thing? :D
No shit. All of a sudden its as cold in Alaska on a crab boat in this thread eh?
Maybe people should start to preach "just ride your motorcycle and get seat time"... I've learned more riding dirtbikes and doing a little flat track than I have ever learned during a trackday. Being the fastest track day rider does not make you the fastest racer or the biggest shit talker.
Quote from: red900 on December 20, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Quite honestly, I could'nt care less about you or where you spend your money. Based on the fact that Nesba is the largest trackday organization in the nation, I think losing your money is of very little concern. Im kinda happy I dont have to deal with whiners like you when I am there.
I have had some of the best competition and the most fun at trackdays.. They work, Marshall and I have proven it.
Wow, bah freakin humbug to you to. LOL!!!!
Quote from: Court Jester on December 21, 2007, 12:51:32 AM
So when have I been a whiner??? Opinionated yes, but I don't ever recall whining about being passed unless there is a safety issue in it, which 99% of the time there is not.
Never had anybody pass me from the second wave either cause that's where I happily start from. I think you need to put down the crack pipe and lower the internet ego.
Funny, I am the crack head yet you are defending your 2nd wave starting when you can clearly see from the quote in my first post whom that was intended for. Really, if you cant keep up, maybe you should sit this one out.
Quote from: grasshopper on December 21, 2007, 03:03:50 AM
No shit. All of a sudden its as cold in Alaska on a crab boat in this thread eh?
Maybe people should start to preach "just ride your motorcycle and get seat time"... I've learned more riding dirtbikes and doing a little flat track than I have ever learned during a trackday. Being the fastest track day rider does not make you the fastest racer or the biggest shit talker.
Wow, bah freakin humbug to you to. LOL!!!!
I agree, I grew up on dirt and it has helped me immensely. But, I dont think the topic of this thread is should he quit racing and go learn on the dirt....
Quote from: red900 on December 21, 2007, 07:14:23 AM
I agree, I grew up on dirt and it has helped me immensely. But, I dont think the topic of this thread is should he quit racing and go learn on the dirt....
Yeah, the topic was whether the dude should move to expert or not. I am a NESBA member, and while I enjoyed the speed relative to other track day organizations, people like you make it suck. I got this same attitude from a control rider when I needed some help at my first track day. NESBA is an expert in losing business, it's not just Jester who doesn't come back. Unless you're on NESBA's board of directors, or you're an owner, I think even NESBA would like you to shut your mouth and stop losing their business. If you are one of those, you're a moron.
It's time to get back to the topic, which is 'should this guy who is just short of an automatic bump petition to move to expert?'
Quote from: mikendzel on December 21, 2007, 09:22:44 AM
Yeah, the topic was whether the dude should move to expert or not. I am a NESBA member, and while I enjoyed the speed relative to other track day organizations, people like you make it suck. I got this same attitude from a control rider when I needed some help at my first track day. NESBA is an expert in losing business, it's not just Jester who doesn't come back. Unless you're on NESBA's board of directors, or you're an owner, I think even NESBA would like you to shut your mouth and stop losing their business. If you are one of those, you're a moron.
It's time to get back to the topic, which is 'should this guy who is just short of an automatic bump petition to move to expert?'
Geez, novel idea..... Funny I did not start this battle, yet I am the focus of it. I just made a suggestion way back on the first page to go along with another guy post...... IF you also look back you will see that I gave this guy sound advice about his original question. I am not the one trying to get off topic here.
Alot of people need to grow up around here and realize that trackdays are a useful tool if used wisely. Can you learn everything at a trackday, NO. But, there is no one answer about where you cn learn everything needed to know about being a racer.
The great thing about this world is you get to choose where and when you want to spend your time and money. If you dont want to use Nesba, that is your choice. IF you do, that is your choice also. IF you choose not to race, that is your choice also. Your choices really only effect you.....
post deleted
It was a good post, though.
I think thats what the point was, to stay AM and have fun doing well without getting caught up in the EX money race.
RSims, the other thing you could do is start as an amateur and petition mid season to go expert if you're kicking butt. From the looks of your avatar, you probably will be!!!
Either way man, good luck next year!!
Just replying to starting not being much priority, i started every race i entered at the ROC from the last row, yep the last row..i won 2 of them and finished 2nd in another..my starts where very crucial..i was roughly in 5th place entering the first horseshoe..starting is a priority in racing..to me thats half the battle..carry on
yup, if you dont get away with the front runners in the EX class you arent gonna catch em. Its a WHOLE differnt world when youre racing against guys that have been doing this for years. In a tight battle small mistakes cost you a postion, big mistakes cost you 5...
Rsimm... Do whatever you feel is right. Me personally, I didnt think it was right for me to stay back and kick ass in the AM class. I could have made my season WAY cheaper yeah... but to me it just didnt seem right to take that money away from the true AM's. Your situation is different, you didnt recieve the points to get the bump. IMO if you think you are ready to ride in the Ex class you should. its your season, its your decision, but you asked for opinions...
good luck next year! :thumb:
Quote from: tstruyk on December 21, 2007, 01:30:21 PM
yup, if you dont get away with the front runners in the EX class you arent gonna catch em. Its a WHOLE differnt world when youre racing against guys that have been doing this for years. In a tight battle small mistakes cost you a postion, big mistakes cost you 5...
Rsimm... Do whatever you feel is right. Me personally, I didnt think it was right for me to stay back and kick ass in the AM class. I could have made my season WAY cheaper yeah... but to me it just didnt seem right to take that money away from the true AM's. Your situation is different, you didnt recieve the points to get the bump. IMO if you think you are ready to ride in the Ex class you should. its your season, its your decision, but you asked for opinions...
good luck next year! :thumb:
You're going to have to retake learning curves to race again!
yeah well youre old :kicknuts:
Quote from: fatboy122 on December 21, 2007, 12:04:02 PM
Just replying to starting not being much priority, i started every race i entered at the ROC from the last row, yep the last row..i won 2 of them and finished 2nd in another..my starts where very crucial..i was roughly in 5th place entering the first horseshoe..starting is a priority in racing..to me thats half the battle..carry on
Did anyone happen to catch a view of Doug Polen starting at Daytona in the Superbike grid on 06? Rumor has it, he registered at the track, started in the back row, and did not even launch. He left like he was on a sunday ride to the donut shop.... Geoff May, as well as other Pro's were in the mix. Doug was the last guy going into turn one, and the first guy coming across the line on lap one. I always felt a good start could get you out in front but it wont keep you there... I am going to Freddie next month, I wonder if he is going to teach starting?
I have been reading this forum for a while but have yet to chime in but here goes.
This year I made enough points to go up to expert by like 40 or something so not by a great number. My best finish was a 5th place (I run a 6r) and fastest time was a 1:16.5 at BHF. I thought about asking to be held back but this year(2007) I preregistered and ran with guys closer to the front and improved by 4 seconds from my last years best time(also new bike) but then I thought I could try and improve more and have a fast year as an AM but we ALWAYS get sandbaggers that should be in EX but run AM just because they can't hang with the EX guys. I would rather get beat by every EX,some that have many sponsor and money into thier bike, then one sandbagging AM any day. I will ride home thinking man those MF's are fast but I am sure they all started slow like me instead of DON'T THE OFFICIAL SEE THIS GUY SHOULD BE IN EXPERTS!!!!!!!!
Not trying to be a prick but you sound like another sandbagging AM. I race for the enjoyment of competing and am more then happy just being able to say I run with the Experts.
Quote from: red900 on December 21, 2007, 08:33:31 PM
Did anyone happen to catch a view of Doug Polen starting at Daytona in the Superbike grid on 06? Rumor has it, he registered at the track, started in the back row, and did not even launch. He left like he was on a sunday ride to the donut shop.... Geoff May, as well as other Pro's were in the mix. Doug was the last guy going into turn one, and the first guy coming across the line on lap one. I always felt a good start could get you out in front but it wont keep you there... I am going to Freddie next month, I wonder if he is going to teach starting?
Polen did this at daytona but im wondering if he wouldve had the same result as you mentioned at a real race track..Also, not everyone is Doug Polen..
Damn, i thought i was gonna be able to sand bag as an amateur one more year until i saw the bump list got cut short. Stopped at the T's. I didn't have enough points to go Expert but it was the number of years of holding an AM license. My first year did 2 race weekends. 2nd year, no races, broke my collar bone 1st lap of 1st race of the season. Last year i did race 5 weekends. My times are getting down and I've improved a tremendous amount, but need work on my passing. With 2 kids in daycare i was really hoping to sandbag that pirelli contingency for one more year, it would have been helpful. At the same time, if you want to get faster, you have to rider with someone above your level and learn from them. I'm sure i'll finish mid pack by the end of the season and have fun battling it out with the other guys i've formed relationships with in the AMs. Either way, just have fun and do what you think is right....i guess that's why i'm not protesting to stay an Amateur.
You do relize the question is not to petition to stay a amature, but to ask to be moved up to expert right?
Unless most of the posts have gotton away from the real topic and off to the sandbagging discusion. Which judging by the times etc. he cant be sandbagging that much...
Just my .02 on the off topic discusion.
Quote from: LilJayRR on December 26, 2007, 10:06:01 PM
You do relize the question is not to petition to stay a amature, but to ask to be moved up to expert right?
Unless most of the posts have gotton away from the real topic and off to the sandbagging discusion. Which judging by the times etc. he cant be sandbagging that much...
Just my .02 on the off topic discusion.
Thank you. I didn't think I would be really sandbagging. I don't have a single win on my record, and only got on the box at Road America.
Thanks to all that responded. I've mulled it over a bit and decided I'll stay where the points say I should: in AM. I'm sure they're will be some good competition in AM, I can think of a few guys that I'll likely be battling with. And actually having a shot at some contingency will keep racing within the budget.
IF it turns out that I end up being 'that guy," I'll petition to move up when/if that happens. I'm not that fast, so I doubt it will be the case.
This thread also had me thinking about an alternate way of classifying riders. What about a 110% rule (number is arbitrary) If a given rider is turning, on average, 110% of the fastest lap, he/she is an expert.
There seems to be a number of advantages to this scheme:
Fast guys coming out of the trackday circuit are placed where they belong in a timely fashion.
less closing speed differentials within AM/EX fields
A larger field of more closely matched competitors for better racing, both for spectators and racers. As it stands, it seems there's overlap. The faster AM are running times that are faster than the slower EXs, thereby spreading the field in both classes. The cutoff percentage could be adjusted to maintain relatively equal numbers of riders in AM and EX to ensure better populated grids.
No incentive to 'sandbag' at the end of the season to avoid 400pt. cutoff (I've seen it done) No racer in his right mind would come out and intentionally ride slow and defeat the purpose of racing. But some racers will not enter races towards the end of the season to preserve yellow plate status.
Allows not-quite-EX-fast riders not be forced into EX by virtue of simply entering races. This would reduce the occurences of the "slow AM>Fast AM>slow EX>still slow EX>quit racing cycle" that is often mentioned.
It would be easy to implement. All this data is currently taken and can be quickly and efficiently managed with something as a simple as an MS Excel macro. I suspect it would lead to more people entering more races, both by reducing the sandbag incentive and making for better/fairer competition. The racers benefit and CCS as a business entity benefits.
how do you go 10% faster than the fastest lap? (or 110% of the fastesrt lap?)
Quote from: sobottka on December 27, 2007, 08:25:05 PM
how do you go 10% faster than the fastest lap? (or 110% of the fastesrt lap?)
1 word..... TRACKDAYS :)
:lmao: :lmao: now that was funny i dont care who you are!!!!
Quote from: sobottka on December 27, 2007, 08:25:05 PM
how do you go 10% faster than the fastest lap? (or 110% of the fastesrt lap?)
110% of fastest lap. E.g.if the fastest lap was 1:10 (70 sec), the EX cutoff could be 77 sec, or 1:17. the 10% figure is just a round number.
And the trackday comment was pretty darn funny.
It seems that this is a problem every year..there will always be a fast group of amatuers no matter where they come from..and all the mid pack amatuers will complain that they should be expert riders..i was an outside the top 5 amatuer in 2006, i did a few trackdays over the winter to get better then won a couple races in 2007..now i feel like im ready to be an expert and actually have the experience and knowledge to safely ride with the expert group..
Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
Thank you. I didn't think I would be really sandbagging. I don't have a single win on my record, and only got on the box at Road America.
I know how you feel. I had basically the same question this year. I missed the 400 points by ~70 or so. The best finish I have had was a couple of 5th places. Looking at the bump list and comparing it to the results there are still a few racers that will be faster than I am. There will always be some armatures that come out of no where and do well. That is life, and I still looking forward to another great season!
Hope you all stay safe over the next few weeks/months so I can see all at the track!
Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
Thank you. I didn't think I would be really sandbagging. I don't have a single win on my record, and only got on the box at Road America.
Thanks to all that responded. I've mulled it over a bit and decided I'll stay where the points say I should: in AM. I'm sure they're will be some good competition in AM, I can think of a few guys that I'll likely be battling with. And actually having a shot at some contingency will keep racing within the budget.
IF it turns out that I end up being 'that guy," I'll petition to move up when/if that happens. I'm not that fast, so I doubt it will be the case.
This thread also had me thinking about an alternate way of classifying riders. What about a 110% rule (number is arbitrary) If a given rider is turning, on average, 110% of the fastest lap, he/she is an expert.
There seems to be a number of advantages to this scheme:
Fast guys coming out of the trackday circuit are placed where they belong in a timely fashion.
less closing speed differentials within AM/EX fields
A larger field of more closely matched competitors for better racing, both for spectators and racers. As it stands, it seems there's overlap. The faster AM are running times that are faster than the slower EXs, thereby spreading the field in both classes. The cutoff percentage could be adjusted to maintain relatively equal numbers of riders in AM and EX to ensure better populated grids.
No incentive to 'sandbag' at the end of the season to avoid 400pt. cutoff (I've seen it done) No racer in his right mind would come out and intentionally ride slow and defeat the purpose of racing. But some racers will not enter races towards the end of the season to preserve yellow plate status.
Allows not-quite-EX-fast riders not be forced into EX by virtue of simply entering races. This would reduce the occurences of the "slow AM>Fast AM>slow EX>still slow EX>quit racing cycle" that is often mentioned.
It would be easy to implement. All this data is currently taken and can be quickly and efficiently managed with something as a simple as an MS Excel macro. I suspect it would lead to more people entering more races, both by reducing the sandbag incentive and making for better/fairer competition. The racers benefit and CCS as a business entity benefits.
This misses one key element. What actually defines an amateur from an expert?
If it is only lap times then your idea might work, but I think the difference is more than just lap times. The difference is race craft and race experience, not just lap times.
Maybe CCS should use some other criteria then... Cause if AM's are finishing top 5 overall, then there are some experts that maybe shouldn't be expert.
Quote from: red900 on December 28, 2007, 08:39:32 AM
This misses one key element. What actually defines an amateur from an expert?
If it is only lap times then your idea might work, but I think the difference is more than just lap times. The difference is race craft and race experience, not just lap times.
Sure, laptimes aren't the only part of it, but I think they're the best proxy we have for those other unquantifiable characteristics. I'm certain that a guy who can run times within 5 or 10% of the fastest guy out there has some idea how to ride a motorcycle in fast paced setting. It isn't like someone gets that quick their first time on a bike or even on the track. They would have some experience. Not only that, the laptimes that would be determinitive would be in a race setting, so that our prospective track day hero would get at least 1-2 rounds of experience at the AM level.
Not only that, those other things aren't really so much germane to classification as they are to winning. Sure, a guy that can run 1:11's might not win because he isn't very keen on the 'race craft' aspect of the game, but he can compete, and he can pickup the racecraft part while getting some real competition.
The flip side is that our 1:11 guy isn't going to pick up much racecraft in the AM ranks by taking the holeshot and leading for 6 laps either. He may win an AM race/championship, but its probably not doing much for his skills, the other riders' skills, or the quality of racing in general.
Laptimes in a race setting implicitly take into account the criteria of racecraft knowledge or race experience knowledge to the extent they matter. One can have all the race experience in the world, but that really doesn't make much difference if they're too slow to compete with their peers. It goes the other way too. One can have no race (per se) experience, but may be much faster to the point where they don't have any real competition within that group. In either case, there is no reason to use experience as a benchmark because using that criteria does nothing to make racing better, and can even make it worse.
QuoteMaybe CCS should use some other criteria then... Cause if AM's are finishing top 5 overall, then there are some experts that maybe shouldn't be expert.
Personally, I don't think there should be any overlap. There's no reason for it. It makes no sense to have any AM faster than an EX. It makes the distinction worthless, and makes for more spread out, conga line style racing.
Quote from: RSimmons on December 27, 2007, 09:38:53 PM
110% of fastest lap. E.g.if the fastest lap was 1:10 (70 sec), the EX cutoff could be 77 sec, or 1:17. the 10% figure is just a round number.
And the trackday comment was pretty darn funny.
gotcha... I think am licences should be issued on a provisional basis with regular evaluations so those that are too competitive get bumped. maybe even limit the # of classes an am can enter and offer more to the experts so slower ex's can still have competitive races
bump them all up no more sandbaggers
what the hell are you going to do with all those placks anyway?
all those guys that cry they never won a race
i never won a race till i was an expert
but on the other hand you dont want people who just go alot of points by doing alot of races going up to expert when they arent up to speed
Rob, you keep using those big lawyer type words and I am not going to be able to follow this thread. I mean really proxy, unquantifiable, those books are really starting to get to you eh.
Just messin. Look forward to seenin ya next year.
Quote from: steve p on December 28, 2007, 06:58:32 PM
Rob, you keep using those big lawyer type words and I am not going to be able to follow this thread. I mean really proxy, unquantifiable, those books are really starting to get to you eh.
Just messin. Look forward to seenin ya next year.
hahaha, yeah they are. I'm told it's all downhill from here. Soon I won't be able to communicate with normal people anymore!
Quote from: RSimmons on December 28, 2007, 12:02:58 PMPersonally, I don't think there should be any overlap. There's no reason for it. It makes no sense to have any AM faster than an EX. It makes the distinction worthless, and makes for more spread out, conga line style racing.
Ironically this wasn't an issue when Track Days didn't exist because a person learned their 'Racecraft' as they developed their speed instead of getting really fast in a non-race environment then jumping into racing already fast - yet lacking 'Racecraft'. I think this is a large part of the problem today, SOME of the really fast 'new racers' (coming out of Track Days) who work their way into the Expert portion of the field during the combined races are making dangerous passes due to apparent lack of experience/knowledge. This is something I've witnessed extensively over the last several years because even though I've raced since '96 I've been the guy at the back of the Expert pack for quite a while now (I've been at the back because I wasn't spending the money on tires that the fast racers are - I was actually on race tires that had 3 seasons on them, but that's another story).
I'm in a rather unique postion, I'm a former fast guy who hasn't spent the money to go fast for quite a while, so I know what it's like to be in the lead group and doing the passing and at the back of the Experts as well (though I don't get lapped by any of the Experts in a sprint race). The biggest difference I see today is the experience/ability of the racers passing me, in practice I've had people like front running Expert/Pro racer Brian Hall go by me only a foot away and I was comfortable with that because he's smooth and never chops me off. Yet as a great example at Road America this last season I had 5 different Amateur racers pass me in 1 race with passes that each chopped my line so badly I almost plowed into each of them, I ended up stuck racing with 1 of those guys almost the whole race and he almost caused me to crash 4 different times in 1 race!
Actual race experience shows in smoothness, passing ability, and consistency - all of which are things you don't automatically have by just being able to do a certain lap time. The racers I mentioned at the RA event were indeed fast, but their passing ability sucked. I'm in no way saying this is ALL the fast Amateurs, there were some that consistently went by me during the season this year that will make great additions to the Experts in 2008.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 29, 2007, 04:55:15 PM
Ironically this wasn't an issue when Track Days didn't exist because a person learned their 'Racecraft' as they developed their speed instead of getting really fast in a non-race environment then jumping into racing already fast - yet lacking 'Racecraft'. I think this is a large part of the problem today, SOME of the really fast 'new racers' (coming out of Track Days) who work their way into the Expert portion of the field during the combined races are making dangerous passes due to apparent lack of experience/knowledge. This is something I've witnessed extensively over the last several years because even though I've raced since '96 I've been the guy at the back of the Expert pack for quite a while now (I've been at the back because I wasn't spending the money on tires that the fast racers are - I was actually on race tires that had 3 seasons on them, but that's another story).
I'm in a rather unique postion, I'm a former fast guy who hasn't spent the money to go fast for quite a while, so I know what it's like to be in the lead group and doing the passing and at the back of the Experts as well (though I don't get lapped by any of the Experts in a sprint race). The biggest difference I see today is the experience/ability of the racers passing me, in practice I've had people like front running Expert/Pro racer Brian Hall go by me only a foot away and I was comfortable with that because he's smooth and never chops me off. Yet as a great example at Road America this last season I had 5 different Amateur racers pass me in 1 race with passes that each chopped my line so badly I almost plowed into each of them, I ended up stuck racing with 1 of those guys almost the whole race and he almost caused me to crash 4 different times in 1 race!
Actual race experience shows in smoothness, passing ability, and consistency - all of which are things you don't automatically have by just being able to do a certain lap time. The racers I mentioned at the RA event were indeed fast, but their passing ability sucked. I'm in no way saying this is ALL the fast Amateurs, there were some that consistently went by me during the season this year that will make great additions to the Experts in 2008.
I was probably in that race. (I raced all of the HW classes that weekend) I don't think I was one of the offenders, since I tend to take a very conservative, almost track-day mentality to passing. But If so I apologize.
Quote from: RSimmons on December 29, 2007, 05:03:42 PM
I was probably in that race. (I raced all of the HW classes that weekend) I don't think I was one of the offenders, since I tend to take a very conservative, almost track-day mentality to passing. But If so I apologize.
No need to apologize (i'm pretty sure you weren't one of them anyways), racing is racing, I was just trying to provide an example relavent to the current conversation. :thumb:
I agree with you mike, That is the race experience I am talking about. That is the difference. That only comes with race laps...
Race craft and race etiquette isn't only learned at a race school, race event or even track day for that matter. Banging handle bars with your buddies in a corn field or in the dirt goes a long way. For example, Jesse Janisch. He came out as an amatuer road racer and was winning championships flat track racing rite? What else was he supposed to do? If you are a really fast racer (maybe proffessional) in a different form of the sport like flattrack,ice racing/riding, supermoto, or motocross where does that person start out in racing CCS? Seriously... I know some people who are pretty damn good "racers" and never raced CCS.
So they have raced, then they are learning racecraft.
I'm confused... I thought by doing trackdays for 3 years, they were learning what they needed to do to race?
Now you're saying they only learn it while racing?
In my opinion based on observation is that the trackday Expert is very different than the Racer Expert. Trackdays are a great place for the rider to learn much of their riding pertaining to the mechanics of the rider and bike. Stuff like tire pressures and suspension settings can make for a vital learning period.
A race Expert posess a different skill. I am not the fastest, per lap times. But, I am able to win races against those same folks. Racing have developed riding skills that I don't believe I would have during a track day. The Amateur ranks allows for some of this learning and trying to do it at a faster pace can increase the risk factor.
I choose the lower HP level of what I consider a Lightweight bike. This power level offers me a little more time to react. When it comes to the Expert Racers I have much more confidence in their ability to ride and race in close quarters with much higher predictability. I don't find that to be true with the Am ranks, not saying there aren't a lot of talented and fast Amateurs. Maybe they should be Experts.
Mark
Quote from: r1owner on January 01, 2008, 11:19:39 AM
I'm confused... I thought by doing trackdays for 3 years, they were learning what they needed to do to race?
Now you're saying they only learn it while racing?
I really want to answer, but I think you use it to continue an argument rather than add anything positive.
Quote from: red900 on January 03, 2008, 11:59:43 PM
I really want to answer, but I think you use it to continue an argument rather than add anything positive.
go ahead... if you cant argue here wherer can you? besides I'm bored :thumb:
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...
Quote from: Kelly Daniels on January 04, 2008, 11:24:13 AM
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...
If you podium every event and make only 3 or 4 weekends a year, you're going to get enough points to get bumped.
If I could afford to run every event at three or four weekends, I would just cut back to running 3-4 races at every weekend! lol
Quote from: Kelly Daniels on January 04, 2008, 11:24:13 AM
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What about riders who can only make a few races a year? Maybe podium in every event. These guys will never make expert even though they may be good enough and experienced enough to be safely competitive in expert. Just playing devil's advocate...