Has the guys that run the Midwest and other regions ever considered reducing the entry costs like they did at CCS events in Arizona? Road Racing interviewed the manager of the Arizona area and he said it worked great. They cut the costs in half and twice as many spectators showed up. Hopefully the other regions will take note and do the same thing. I know sometimes friends and family just want to stop by for a few hours and they still have to pay $25 so often they do not come.
Good idea.
We did complain when it went up. CCS Midwest is owned by CCS Ft Worth, so things happen based on their input. I think CCS SW is an affilate, so things can happen differently for you quicker.
we hashed this over a few months back no luck
BHF used to have daily gate fees, but since a bunch of people with one day passes decided to stay overnight sat and stay sunday without maying for sunday, well you know the rest.
So, lets go back to the get $10 back if you turn in your wristband Saturday when leaving.
You can see MOTO GP for 75 for 3 days at Indy next year! Why anyone would pay 25 bucks to watch us chumps go around is beyond me! :)
CCS seriously needs to just drop the fees.
Yeah, I wouldn't pay 25 bucks to watch you chumps either....... :biggrin:
FYI, the GP region only charges $10 per day also.
B. Kaszer
Quote from: Willyz on October 29, 2007, 12:04:04 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't pay 25 bucks to watch you chumps either....... :biggrin:
FYI, the GP region only charges $10 per day also.
B. Kaszer
Not even for my starts? ;)
Quote from: r1owner on October 29, 2007, 12:27:46 AM
Not even for my starts? ;)
I have to admit...that was mesmerizing. I was walking out of the pits to watch Mitch's start and I get a front row seat for the loop! It was surreal!! :err:
hehe, I saw it from the covered paddock... thought to myslf "woooooooops, haha... hey that looked like Scott..."
:lmao:
Yeah, Pedrosa ain't got nothin on me! :)
Excellent idea. There are bike groups that ride out to the track on occasion also. Maybe they would come more often and maybe even get interested enough to participate. Visitors also buy food. I would think they should be encouraged to come.
CCS SW was able to accomplish that and it has not really increased the gate greatly. They got some outside sponsorhsip to defray costs and it definitely made the riders happy. On the opposite end, they gained way more racers which was not the result I expected- but welcommed when it came!
Maybe you guys in other regions can get with your race directors and find somoe solutions through sponsorship. Don't go it alone, since the director and the home office I would assume would like some input on the situation. But you could provide the leads.
Oh dear god, someone stayed the night on the grass without paying.... Heaven's no...
Who cares? I say make it $5 a head until we get enough spectators to worry about it... Im chargin 50cents to the next guy that used my air tank. I mean come on, we should charge for everything now shouldn't we?
I guess it's never been clear to me who gets the take from the gate fee. Is this CCS revenue, track revenue, or some sort of split?
If the gate fee is managed by the track, something I've kicked around this year is the idea of some sort of season pass / multiple use ticket of some sort. As a racer, I'd pick up a few of these if the price was reasonable, and offer them to various friends and family for a given weekend to expose more people to the sport. Could be a simple business-card type pass with a serial number that's punched every time it's used or something to prevent fraud.
How about if we register our spectators for $50 per year just like pit bikes? :)
Quote from: cstem on October 29, 2007, 06:44:51 PM
CCS SW was able to accomplish that and it has not really increased the gate greatly. They got some outside sponsorhsip to defray costs and it definitely made the riders happy. On the opposite end, they gained way more racers which was not the result I expected- but welcommed when it came!
I think during our nicer weather months it really has helped pick up the number of spectators. During the February round at Firebird West there were more spectators at that event than I have ever seen in a SW regional race. When it's 105 out your not going to get many spectators to watch even if it was free to get in.
Typical rent deals have the track making a portion or all of the gate fee. Also some tracks charge us for allowing you to camp, just as they charge you to camp. The last contract I saw from Firebird had neither of these items included.
Welcome to the supply and demand part of this business.
So if this is primarily a BHF management issue what is the best way to raise the issue with the new ownership??
Hopefully they'll realize a $25 per head per day fee is chasing people away.
Well, you'd have to address the liabiity issues associated with competitors doing one day passes and staying for two days. Ultimately, liability is the issue for everything. That's why entry fees have gone up. And I would expect them to go up in 2008 or 2009, unfortunately.
If that's all it is then they need a better lawyer. There are disclaimers that can address someone's unauthorized entry. We're running around a track at speed taking helo and ambulance rides and they're worried about liability from an unauthorized gate entry and their solution is to jack up entry fees????
Don, it's a global problem. The insurance has gone up, which is overhead, and the entry fees have to cover the overhead. Track rentals have went up too because of similar overhead problems with insurance, legal fees for sound problems for previously unzoned areas and the like.
All the disclaimers in the world won't stop a family or an estate from attempting to sue an entity. It does actually happen to racing organizations and race tracks.
I have to remind myself that when I started racing, it was $30 for the first race, $20 for the second, and $10 for everyone after.
That's fine... why can't people still buy a pass on Saturday and get $10 back if they turn in their wristband? To me it just seems like an easy way to milk an extra 10 bucks outta people.
It's been proven that lowering the fee and advertising help attendance... you can't dispute it in the SW region.
I know people have given their wristband to people going in on Sunday. Those people going in on Sunday haven't signed anything either.
I know the $25 fee keeps my cheap ass in law side of the family from coming to the races. Does seem to me that a refund
of some sort would help boost attendance. A different colored arm band for people staying the weekend? Saturday only? Sunday only?
I know the Track and CCS is in the business to make money, but you'd make more if you drew in larger crowds.
$25 per person is a little steep IMO.
Quote from: xb9racer on October 30, 2007, 09:58:49 PM
I know the $25 fee keeps my cheap ass in law side of the family from coming to the races.
For some that would be reason to keep fees high. :biggrin:
Personally, my wife (and sometimes the kid or two) comes to one race day per year. Last summer I paid for some other family members to come out and watch. There was no way I was going to allow them to pay $100+ out of their own pockets.
Spectator fees may or may not be a significant source of income to help offset higher insurance costs, but if they are the question still remains whether they are hurting themselves by raising fees and driving customers away. The argument is that they'd be better off lowering to a more reasonable level and increasing head count, and/or restructuring the wristband system.
It was once argued that there was no impact on attendance whether the fees were $10 or $25 per head. With the legal work and valuations that have gone into the various deals for BHF I'm sure it was researched, but if raising entry fees was just someone's way of seeing if they could squeeze out more money I'll bet it backfired.
Spectatorship and interest in this sport is growing. Other than a few loyal families, spectatorship at BHF consists of GFs and the occasional bored wife. I see more spectators at (gasp!) trackdays where there isn't even any racing!
$25 per head per day has kept people away and hurt the sport, period. Probably kept out more than a few potential customers for other trackside services too. I'm surprised the vendors haven't pursued this further since they have a clear interest.
BTW, we need more of those cool emoticons that the *other* org's board has, like the "Beat the dead horse" one. We could use that one here....
Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 30, 2007, 08:35:08 PM
We're running around a track at speed taking helo and ambulance rides
Compared to what the helio ride costs... the gate fee is nothing, trust me!
But I Like the Get $10.00 back when you turn in your wrist band on Saturday (say before 6:00) idea, that makes sense IMHO.
Okay so I have to ask - BHF for a normal race weekend is a $50 gate fee for riders/crew/whoever?
Rider & Crew Gate Passes:
Sat.-Sun.: $25
Sunday only: $15
35.00 (fri,sat,&sun)if you show up for Fridays pratice.
Whew, the way everyone kept going on about $25 per person per day had me scared.
The complaints about $25 for a weekend always amaze me, you spend more than that on gas getting there. You spend more for two people to go sit through a 90 minute movie.
Heck, I paid $10 for the weekend 20 years ago to go to my first race, there isn't much else that has only gone up 100-150% in 20 years.
I should have said "$25 for a person for one day". $25 for a weekend isn't bad, but most guests aren't coming out for a weekend, they would come out for a day and many would be for just the afternoon races. $25 keeps them away.
The fact that gas prices are high makes it all the more prohibitive, not less. Cost of a movie ticket? About $8. Cost for two hours at the track? $25. You must eat a lot of popcorn. :biggrin:
Quote from: r1owner on October 30, 2007, 09:41:44 PM
I know people have given their wristband to people going in on Sunday. Those people going in on Sunday haven't signed anything either.
And some question why liability costs are going up...
Camping may have to charge fee at race tracks next. It isn't because tracks want to, it's because insurance companies start asking questions based on what's happening at events. If there are claims for pit bikes, you pay a higher insurance fee for that opportunity at your race track. If there are overnight claims, camping is next.
Higher insurance costs only affect us on those weekends that we race. But it affects the race track for every rental date.
But if they come out for Sunday it's not $25. It's $15.
Go to a dirt track race on a Saturday night - $15-20, then another $5-10 if you want paddock access.
As for the movies - who comes to the track for 2 hours? Seriously, that's just silly.
$25 is NOT out of line, and it is NOT why spectators don't come out to the track. We've tried discount coupons and many other things over the years, made no difference. I've known many racers who have offered to pay for friends and family and they still don't come out. It's not the price that is the deciding factor, it's the simple fact that unless you're involved it's boring as hell.
Boring could be part of it for sure.
It still amazes me how many spectators I see at a test and tune on Tuesday night though to watch two cars go in a straight line. THAT is boring!
That's perfect for the US mentality with regard to motorsports. You can see the whole track, instant gratification on results, beer nearby, restrooms nearby etc...
Makes sense.... I guess I just don't think like a typical American when it comes to motorsports then!
Me either :D Luckily there are enough of us around to keep roadracing viable.
Wow, interesting discussion thread.
if free (paid for) entrance isn't the answer to build spectator head count....what is?
Is there really an opportunity here when it comes to this level of racing and spectator interest?
Each year we have gone to Daytona for the ROC I can't help but look up in the empty 100,000 or so seats and ask myself if this isn't a missed marketing opportunity for Club level motorcycle road racing.
Not saying there are answers to this question and, truly not trying to rub anyone the wrong way with this, but since the thread is here.....
Thoughts
Paul Vondrak
Polar-Optics LLC
MW Ex 79
You need either big stars that are promoted by the manufacturers at all of their dealers or you need a big party at the track that makes the event as a whole worth it for people. Both helps, then you have Mid-O, Road Atlanta and the old Loudon event with Animal Hill and the like. The racing is a nice break from the partying for most people. At the club racing level, we can't afford to dump the money into making these events into more than just a race.
I do not think we are trying to fill the stands. We are just hoping for more afforable gate fees to get a few more people especially our friends and family.
If another region cut costs in half and doubled the attendence why not give it a try in other regions. The track makes the same amount, sells more vending and we get a few more spectators.
The difference in the tracks is what Kevin said. He can't do that everywhere.
I think that maybe we should look at what the local circle tracks are doing as far as promotions and such. They don't have big stars (not that that doesn't help) or big parties (that would probably help too), yet they usually have a pretty good turn-out. Some basic local radio ads, contacting local clubs and promoting through dealerships that kinda of thing. But it take a person to do it. Just a thought.
Yep, those things cost money to do though and without a local person willing to do the legwork they don't work well. It also helps the roundy rounds run every weekend and again - everyone can sit in one seat, walk a short way to beer, a short way to the bathroom, and they see the whole track. It's hard to teach people about roadracing through some flyers and radio spots.
Well it felt like we were running at BHF every weekend this year ::) - It looked like CB was doing a good job bringing more spectators to the races this year up at BIR, what was he he & the BOD doing? But yea I know exactly what your saying, but hey ya gotta start somewhere.
They're all local and volunteer - they're more into it than people who work for us or CCS. It seems like once people are involved with a company that is in theory for profit (none of us make much of one if any) then they want to get paid - and we can't afford it. We're also running a lot more than just 10-12 races and it keeps us too busy to even do some simple promotions. It's not a good thing but it's the truth.
It's probably time for a qualifier too - I'm not knocking ideas and personally I love reading new ones. I'm just trying to explain why some things are not within our abilities.
The truth is most people dont even know Blackhawk is there. I have spent alot of time in Rockford. Many times have I walked up to some local squids hanging out at a gas station and talk to them about the track. More often than not, they have no idea a racetrack is in their backyard. I have talked to locals at the Love's gas station right off the highway near the track, they didnt even know about it.....
Most don'r even know about Road America.
My favorite is still Daytona - with all the advertising done for the 200 the vast majority of people in town that week have no idea races are happening. Amazing.
The Daytona situation is crazy. 100,000 bikes/bikers and 95% have no idea or just don't care about the Speedway activities. Hopefully the 200 got a little more exposure as Daytona opened up the infield last year and had camping and a huge rally sight / vender area located inside.
I didn't even know you could ride sport bikes on the street. :biggrin:
Quote from: Jason748 on October 31, 2007, 07:59:47 PM
I think that maybe we should look at what the local circle tracks are doing as far as promotions and such. They don't have big stars (not that that doesn't help) or big parties (that would probably help too), yet they usually have a pretty good turn-out. Some basic local radio ads, contacting local clubs and promoting through dealerships that kinda of thing. But it take a person to do it. Just a thought.
A lot of dirt tracks are racing on Friday and Saturday night. And there's beer. Beer is the star, but the people are at least somewhat interested in racing. Doesn't mean that the race track is making much money though.
Radio, etc. costs money.
Back to the regional road racing...
Riders, or so called "teams", in regional racing series should promote themselves. Do it through your dealership or whatever. You can be the star. Make a flyer. Bring your bike with a racing schedule to a warm Saturday to your sponsoring dealer. Anything.
Why should the race sanction provide promotion? They are providing the rules package, manpower, scoring, etc. Racers have a lot to gain by promoting themselves. Afterall, it's the racer that's unique...anyone can go see a GSXRwhatever.
Quote from: G 97 on November 01, 2007, 08:13:11 AM
100,000 bikes/bikers and 95% have no idea or just don't care about the Speedway activities.
Don't care.
It isn't their thing. Just because they ride, it doesn't make them motorcycle road racing fans.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 01, 2007, 08:38:51 AM
A lot of dirt tracks are racing on Friday and Saturday night. And there's beer. Beer is the star,
Hey now.... Don't forget about boobs too, when it get's late enough and enough beer is gone....
Plain and simple- there are more spectators at a Trackday at BHF than there are for CCS Races.
Free brings people to the track.
25 bucks a day will get you into the 2008 MotoGP Race at Indy.....food for thought.
Bullshit, there is no way there are "spectators" at a trackday. There may be a lot of friends and family but they are not there spectating anything.
That's right, dammit. Those people are "watching", not "spectating". You can call them "watchers" or "lookers" or "gawkers". You can call them "people who spectate", but you're only allowed to use the word as a verb. I spectate, you spectate, they spectate...but they aren't "spectators". Don't *ever* call "watchers" at a trackday "spectators". Don't you get the difference?
They don't pay $25. They pay less to enjoy the afternoon at the track with their family and friends. Hell, they probably sneak in with Monopoly money. They're the unwashed, the ignorant, those who don't grasp how the Weekend Value Price Package of $25 is going to save the sport. If they don't want to make the most of their money by camping out in the boonies, pissing in a rusty trough and being there first thing in the morning to watch us wake up, scratch our crotches and set up canopies then screw 'em. How dare they ask for a reasonable gate fee just to attend the races.
They're not our target market anyway. We want the true spectators. Those who understand the concept of maximizing their dollar by spending all weekend at the track, no matter that they have a life...no matter that the races are "boring as hell" as Mongo eloquently puts it. We definitely want to charge them more than trackday "watchers". They understand us. They get it....all five of them.
While we're at it, one step above them is fans. Fans are fanatics. The "el kwayda" of motorcycle racing. I say we jack up the gate fees even more on those suckers. If you're a fan you're going to understand how valuable the "Extra Value Special Weekend Value Price Value Package" is. $50 sounds about right. If it's a family then screw 'em good. If they can afford all those kids they can afford a 25% surcharge per head to cover the cost of the extra liability all those little shits bring to the track. Hell, they'd probably sue if one of them skinned a knuckle falling off a damn big wheel. Up goes the cost of liability insurance, not to mention Band-Aids.
We don't need fans. What self respecting racer wants a hand changing tires and spinning a wrench anyway. If they don't want to pay up we don't need 'em and we sure as hell don't want them to get interested in the sport. They and their little snot nosed "fan"atic kids would probably just grow up liking it and want to take a race school to get licensed. Then they'd bring their friends and eventually buy leather and boots and helmets and fuel and parts and drive up the price of bikes and parts and who knows what else. Holy SHIT!! What if they liked it so much they wanted to cornerwork!
Thank God we have people looking out for the sport's best interests. I just hate large crowds and big grids.
Well, I don't know, Don...LOL!
Honestly, CCS, WERA, AFM, MCRA, CRA and all the rest...
It's sportsman racing. It is set up for the competitor. The track and the organization, although they'd enjoy having "spectators", aren't designing the event around spectating. It's an open paddock. Go where you want, park next to your racer friend, even ride your street bike among the race bikes.
Given that at Blackhawk, there are 150 plus racers, which might be a small number, I know there are many, many more in crew and then actual people coming to see friends and family race that make up a larger number than a track day that has 150, which would be absolutely huge track day riders plus their friends.
As for the sports best interest...it still has to pay the insurance.
dylanfan53 I love you.. That was freaking awesome
You ran out of Prozac again didn't you Don? :thumb:
...and it's only the beginning of the off season... :ahhh:
Give me a break, get the same number of riders at a race as at a trackday and you have the same number of people hanging out. Get the tracks to charge sanctioning bodies what they charge for a track day - if BHF takes a chunk of CCS' gate then why don't they charge a gate fee for trackdays to get that same money? I know they're not charging more for rental. How about insurance, get them to drop our rates to what they charge trackdays and I'll personally guarantee we'll drop gate fees. Hell, get both of those things and we'll drop entry fees too. I don't know about Kevins finances but ours are quite simply crap - with rider and entry counts that made money 10 years ago we can barely pay the bills or lose money. So where exactly are we supposed to get that income? Thin air?
As usual, we have yet another person with no clue who is more than happy to tell us how much better they can do things. Well I have a challenge for you, do it. In a couple of years when WERA and CCS are still here and still running races you can disappear like all the others who insisted they could di it cheaper and make it bigger and better.
I know nothing of the costs of running a race series but I suspect Mongo is right: too many expenses.
Who said anything about running a race org. better? I have nothing but respect for Kevin and his crew and the work they do. I've raced CCS for years and love 'em all (okay, most of them anyway). WERA, I know nothing about and couldn't care less.
I didn't start this thread, but if I have to shell out $100+ for a few family and friends to watch me race for an afternoon you can be sure I'll vent when the topic arises whether you think it's reasonable or not.
The question is really will you attract 200 people at $10 per head or only 50 at $25 per head?
Seems to me based on what happened in the SW it did work. Obviously, he seems to have spent some money advertising, but I think some people here in the know have already said that doesn't appear to help attendance.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on November 07, 2007, 08:40:51 PM
Who said anything about running a race org. better? I have nothing but respect for Kevin and his crew and the work they do. I've raced CCS for years and love 'em all (okay, most of them anyway). WERA, I know nothing about and couldn't care less.
I didn't start this thread, but if I have to shell out $100+ for a few family and friends to watch me race for an afternoon you can be sure I'll vent when the topic arises whether you think it's reasonable or not.
r1owner - we've tried discount coupons at various places that would drop the price to $10 per person for a weekend pass. Didn't work. The difference is the advertising, if we were racing in the desert where weather is pretty consistent it may be viable to pay money, it also helps having local connections with area businesses to promote events, that's something that is hard for us being based well away from most tracks. That's where help from riders who live in the area would be appreciated.
You using trackdays as an example of how we should change is indeed telling us that you know how to do it better - even if you're using someone else as an example of how to do so.
One of the other things we had happen this year in the Southwest was a dramatic rise in the number of new racers, and that will help our series grow for years to come. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe it was something like we ahd 18 new racers all of last year and before our September race (We've had 2 rounds since then) we had near 60 new riders. I believe this was also as a result of getting more people to watch the races. We also had a couple of sponsors step up and provide assistance to new riders taking the school which also helped.
Quote from: Redbuell on October 28, 2007, 07:40:22 PM
Has the guys that run the Midwest and other regions ever considered reducing the entry costs like they did at CCS events in Arizona? Road Racing interviewed the manager of the Arizona area and he said it worked great. They cut the costs in half and twice as many spectators showed up.
So lets see, they cut the cost in half, twice as many people, same gross income. Perhaps these people bought more consessions, which would add to the tracks bottom line, not the race organization. With no increase in gate revenue, what is the incentive to lower gate fees? Do you know that the increase was due to lower fees or more people racing? Just lowering the fee and having more spectators does not mean the lower fee was the cause of the increase. Cause and affect (causality) is difficult to show.