Motorcycle Racing Forum

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!  :wah: I wanna come out and play again!
:thumb: THUMPERS ROCK!!!

http://forums.cycleworld.com/cycleworld/board/message?board.id=racing&thread.id=1368

http://450moto.blogspot.com/

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=479

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNWsqoo71Hs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhdZiVM-ovI&mode=related&search=

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=152134

That bike is the vasizzell

Bring it....  I'm game....  Spec class with very similar bikes.  Who wouldn't want to do that!!  Plus I can justify a new dirtbike to my wife every two years or so!! 

Jamie...

Write to Kevin at CCS HQ and let him know that you want this class! :preachon:

How wouldja gear for Road America? It would take a 4 tooth rear sprocket with a rolling start!! Anyway, It would be a blast overall. :-)  I'd do it.  Looks like a pretty low cost venture with a moderate initial "investment" (?) Kinda like SuperMoto only faster w/ knee draggin!!

I'm in.

Faster ?
Maybe with some gearing on top end .
I'm still alittle confussed on the 450cc thing the XR650r will make more power and last for ever it's much stronger.
100's of baja wins don't lie

Quote from: snakemanracing95 on October 13, 2007, 06:58:06 PMLooks like a pretty low cost venture with a moderate initial "investment"

But I've heard the initial investment is around $12k.  An SV650 really done up is a lot less expensive.  Might be faster on track too.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 10, 2007, 07:41:49 PM
Write to Kevin at CCS HQ and let him know that you want this class! :preachon:

Doesn't it already fit in a class or two already with in the bloated CCS schedule? 

There was the MZ Skorpion Cup Series a few years back.  Similarly, it fit into some classes.

Quote from: Super Dave on October 13, 2007, 08:22:27 PM
Doesn't it already fit in a class or two already with in the bloated CCS schedule? 

You're missing the point. It's not about "fitting into a class or two" its about being competitive in a class.

Unless I misunderstood, they are talking about restricted modifications to these bikes that would in turn emphasize the riders ability rather than budget.

This would be an easy class to run in conjunction with one of the other classes.


   

Quote from: Super Dave on October 13, 2007, 08:20:26 PM
But I've heard the initial investment is around $12k.  An SV650 really done up is a lot less expensive.  Might be faster on track too.

It's not about faster, its about showcasing rider ability.

If the bodywork were left off and older models were allowed this could be a really cheap class.  Just from looking around locally a bike and 17" wheels can be done for under $4k.

If the bodywork were left off and older models were allowed this could be a really cheap class.  Just from looking around locally a bike and 17" wheels can be done for under $4k.
  Isn't that pretty much Supermoto?
would be kind of redundant, don't you think?

Quote from: xb9racer on October 14, 2007, 11:32:07 AMIsn't that pretty much Supermoto?
would be kind of redundant, don't you think?

Not really, super-motard includes dirt sections and jumps. I sincerely doubt that backing it in motard style is the fastest way around a track like Black Hawk. Then again, why not? It's not like there are an abundance of places to race larger motard's. In the mid-west anyway...   

If it just the semantics of the bike style thats a problem,  pick any model that one would not have to buy a new big buck bike every year or throw tons of money at to be competitive and I'm in!   

Ha, there is already a spec class, with similar bikes that showcases rider ability... call the 125GP class.   :biggrin:

"pick any model that one would not have to buy a new big buck bike every year or throw tons of money at to be competitive and I'm in! "

Answers that question also.  98s + are all competitive.

OK, I forgot to mention torque and bikes that someone over 5'2" and 150 lbs can ride without looking like a monkey fornicating with a football.

Not to mention, 2-smokes suck....

Quote from: ecumike on October 14, 2007, 10:35:48 PM
Ha, there is already a spec class, with similar bikes that showcases rider ability... call the 125GP class.   :biggrin:

"pick any model that one would not have to buy a new big buck bike every year or throw tons of money at to be competitive and I'm in! "

Answers that question also.  98s + are all competitive.

And not to mention that Gp125's are not readily available.

And add in the fact that there are at least 6 manufacturers that produce bikes ready for this spec class.

And the limited life expectancy for anything with a 2 stroke motor due to emission standards.

Life expectancy?
you should look into cost per hour life expectancy on 450's
Without the dust of off road they may last a little longer!
a 450 single making 60hp in race setup will not last as long as an sv650 making 70hp....
Check out the total hours on mx 450's before rebuild is recommended and the news is not good .I don't think cost is good news either.

Resurrection,

You misread my post......

I said life expectancy due to emission restrictions.

Meaning how much longer will the government let us run anything with a 2 stroke motor.   Not how durable the engines are. :thumb:

Ok I cant argue with that .
But I am concerned with people thinking 450's will be cheep,
They will require much service in this new form of use .They were built for high hp per cc and motocross lightweight

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 14, 2007, 11:03:17 PM
OK, I forgot to mention torque and bikes that someone over 5'2" and 150 lbs can ride without looking like a monkey fornicating with a football.

Not to mention, 2-smokes suck....

Ha, at 5'2" 150, you're already at an advantage.  That's pretty good for a 125 rider.

How many pistons do you carry around for your chain saw bike?
How many times a weekend do you pull the head?
How much do you spend on spares and maintenance? 

Aside from the fact that no 125's are readily available and will not get any manufacturer support, I would say that they are in the same ballpark regarding maintenance cost. The four strokes come out way ahead in ease of ownership though.

I would rather freshen up the motor two or three times a season at home than play the tuning game with two strokes.

I never want to spend my weekend wrenching in the pits again. 

:spank: Four strokes rule! :spank:

   

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 15, 2007, 10:49:40 AM
How many pistons do you carry around for your chain saw bike?
How many times a weekend do you pull the head?
How much do you spend on spares and maintenance? 

Aside from the fact that no 125's are readily available and will not get any manufacturer support, I would say that they are in the same ballpark regarding maintenance cost. The four strokes come out way ahead in ease of ownership though.

I would rather freshen up the motor two or three times a season at home than play the tuning game with two strokes.

I never want to spend my weekend wrenching in the pits again. 

:spank: Four strokes rule! :spank:

   

I carry one piston with me. One spare cylinder also.

Currently a piston lasts 600 miles for me, re ring at 300 miles, crank 1000 to 1200 miles. I don't pull the head very often, but I can do it in less than 5 minutes, less than 10 total to reinstall including fill with water. I spend less than $750 per season on parts, probably closer to $650 (if I buy a new crank, can be rebuilt). So per season, 1 crank, 2 pistons, 4 rings. I do very little work at the track. I can jet in about 5 minutes.

My SV was more expensive. But I went through my SV every year, new bearings, pistons, rings, valves (at least reground then checked), valve job.

125 tires are $230 a set and will last several weekends.

The numbers I have heard for freshening a 450 for motocross, was running $1000+.

HA man I wont disagree on two stroke virtues.Simplicity is the way to go .
Stand your ground on weight to hp ratio.
If not for the tree hugers two stroke technology would rain supreme.Direct injection would shut up all nay Sayers!!

Evinrude E-tec. It is possible to make clean burning 2 strokes.

Dam I expected more debate on two strokes .
I guess when you shut them up all you get is a smite!!

Quote from: tzracer on October 15, 2007, 09:06:08 PM
Evinrude E-tec. It is possible to make clean burning 2 strokes.

Brian,

I saw an Infomercial on the Evinrude E-tec's and was wondering why that technology couldn't be applied to race bikes.  Maybe you'd have to haul a 200 gallon water tank around with you to cycle coolant water through?   :wtf:

Was that a two stroke slam?

Quote from: resurrection on October 16, 2007, 08:27:49 PM
Was that a two stroke slam?

Not at all....

I would really like to see what this technology would do in a motorcycle.  An Evinrude 50hp 863cc I-twin weighs over 100lbs.  I wonder what it would weigh without the lower end and all the engine shrouds, etc.

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/

http://www.transworldmotocross.com/mx/features/article/0,13190,485640,00.html

I think a big part of the appeal of a four-stroke is that they're extremely durable. The four-stroke motor can perform at a high level for much longer than a two-stroke can. The performance is high and very consistent. And not only that, they're generally easier to maintain, including the fact that you don't even need to mix oil with the gas. Two-strokes certainly have their advantages as well, but they've no doubt been dealt a severe hand with the success of the four-strokes. And if their demand continues to go down, we could certainly see them become obsolete in the future.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 15, 2007, 10:49:40 AM
How many pistons do you carry around for your chain saw bike?
How many times a weekend do you pull the head?
How much do you spend on spares and maintenance? 

I would rather freshen up the motor two or three times a season at home than play the tuning game with two strokes.
   

#1.  Currently I have enough spares for 5 full top-ends. What the biggie there? it's just spare parts. I don't understand the problem with that??
#2.  0.  I don't pull the head.  obviously you don't "really" know much about 2-strokes.  You don't have to pull the head all the time.  Only when you're doing your initial jetting setup.  once you have your setup, you never have to pull the head again.  You can get your jetting setup done in 1 good track day. 2 at most.  And if you buy a used bike, you'll most likely get the notes from the previous owner. 
#3.  Spares and maintaince are cheap.  At least I don't have to go home crying if I crash or break something... parts and engine parts are easily fixed. 

If they can make a reliable, affordable, replacement for a 125GP bike (read just as fast in the corners), then I'm all for it... but until then you'll hear and smell me out on the track buzzing by on my 125.

There's a difference between holding that throttle WFO 80%+ of the time on a road-race track, with no spinning of the rear tire, vs. riding it and freeing the tire on the dirt.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 14, 2007, 11:03:17 PM
OK, I forgot to mention torque and bikes that someone over 5'2" and 150 lbs can ride without looking like a monkey fornicating with a football.

Not to mention, 2-smokes suck....

One of my instructors was winning races at Blackhawk on a '95 RS125...he's football player sized at over 200# and 5'10".

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 01:34:43 AM
I think a big part of the appeal of a four-stroke is that they're extremely durable. The four-stroke motor can perform at a high level for much longer than a two-stroke can. The performance is high and very consistent. And not only that, they're generally easier to maintain, including the fact that you don't even need to mix oil with the gas. Two-strokes certainly have their advantages as well, but they've no doubt been dealt a severe hand with the success of the four-strokes. And if their demand continues to go down, we could certainly see them become obsolete in the future.

While I understand you're direction, I feel as though you've been misled by some things.

Two stroke durability isn't a problem.  Tuning can be an individual problem, yes.  It can be so on a four stroke also. 

Four stroke motorcycle durablity with Ti valves, as the 450s all have, and so do all the supersport 600's now, has been reduced.  One cannot even lap in valves on ti valved bikes.  Failure of a ti valve is immenent because of how ti is.  Reliability comes from regular replacement of such valves at reasonable intervals.  Early failures of valves causes catestrophic destruction of other parts. 



The reason for the change from a lot of two stroke technology to four stroke has been the simple selling out of manufacturers to enviornmental pressure, pressure that potentially isn't even science, that claims that four stroke technolgy is better. 

If four stroke technology was better, don't you think a 250 four stroke would compete against a 250 two stroke?

Regardless, racing an SV650 is still good.  Given that there are many competitive '99 SV650's at the top of the expert field...well, draw one's own conclusions on how necessary it is to update.

Given that I don't see any YZ400f's or YZ426f's running around against YZ450f's...what conclusions should I have?

I don't see where the four strokes or specifically the 450 are cheaper than the two stroke 125. Like Dave has said. If the four stroke is that dominant over the two stroke then why isn't there a four stroke 125 currently running in that class.

I love the two strokes although a newb to them, working on them is very easy. It takes me a total of one hour to pull the bike apart and swap out the top end and put it all back together. Reliability at the ragged edge? I think the 2-stroke has it there. Too many thing to go wrong on the 4-stroke. I hear the 60 hp output of the 450 but I only know of the kitted 450 motors doing this, at least from my dirt buddies.

Cost? $7000 for the 450 from the manufacturer and then you gotta do modifications. $10,000 for the complete package of a new 125 2-stroke and that comes with spares inclduing the spare motor if I m not mistaken.

To run the 2-stroke for the season was definitely cheaper to run than my 4-stroke.

Mark

Part of the appeal of the 450 class to me is something new, interesting and different. I've been watching the same UJM's running around for the last 20 years,  :sleeping2: I'd really like a breath of fresh air.

The two vs. four arguments will go on forever. Both have solid pros and cons and each suits personal riding preferences for different people. Can't we all just get along??  :kissy:

(Pardon me Dave but your argument for same cc 2 to 4 stroke competition is invalid, as you know.   :jerkoff: But it is getting closer!)

Pick any newer bike with low to mid hp, that would get some support, IE sales, and I'll go for it! (two or four!)

Now, what dealership can I walk into and buy a two stroke motorcycle that would be a competitive road racer? :rollseyes:

And hey, I just found a full motarded 04 CRF450, in really nice shape for a shade over $3k! I'm in!!!   :thumb:

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 12:55:00 PM
Pick any newer bike with low to mid hp, that would get some support, IE sales, and I'll go for it! (two or four!)

SV650.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 12:55:00 PM
Now, what dealership can I walk into and buy a two stroke motorcycle that would be a competitive road racer? :rollseyes:

The same place you can get a competitive 450 four stroke road racer.  None.



Now, don't get a lot of us wrong, and I'm shooting in the dark that maybe some of us that are giving you resistance agree with me...

First, you've generated requirements that are already met by bikes like the SV650.  The 650 Ninja might give you other opportunities too. 

Secondly, I think there are plenty of us that see the short comings in the 450cc based class having no reliablity issues.  I've raced both two stroke and four strokes, and four stroke of even several eras prior.

Third, building a completely new class for a specific motorcycle...well, you talk about sales...where are all the current motard based road racers?  Motard racing hasn't led to any bigger road racing grids or any increase in entries for road racing classes even though there are classes in all the organizations that allow them. 

Even with Suzuki, Honda, Ducati, Aprilia, and other manufacturers building many opportunities for larger displacement twin cylinder motorcycles, classes specifically designed and tailored for that style of bike haven't been very successful. 

If you'd like some of the community to get on board with this, at least try to sell us on the idea with some additional ideas that don't get blasted down.

Regardless, have fun with all this.  That's the most important thing.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 12:55:00 PM
Part of the appeal of the 450 class to me is something new, interesting and different. I've been watching the same UJM's running around for the last 20 years,  :sleeping2: I'd really like a breath of fresh air.

Your missing my point. I'm behind a change like this for the end result, not because I have a huge hard-on to race a dirt bike. It's just that this fits my criteria.

Hell, make a motard class! Theres enough out there that if one is made they will come! As its set up now a big single "fits" into classes, but as you know its not truly competitive in such class structures.

Suggest something "different", new, exciting, change of pace, even quirky! I'm up for almost any new class as long as its on the cheaper side and promotes ability, read spec class. 

Whuddya got? :err:

Over many years, there have been many classes developed to offer something, as you say, different. 

However, they have yet to prove to have results in bringing entries.  At one time, there were Sportsman classes, and they have all been merged into existing classes, except for Ultra Lightweight Superbike, which would be a class that a 450 motard or derived road racer would be competitive.  That would still allow that bike to be raced in Thunderbike and LWGP.

Again, where are the modified motards? 

It would be cheap, as you claim.


Spec class?  I'm not sure how many times I can talk about an SV650.  It's a reliable, available motorcycle that has been built by Suzuki for ten model years, including the 2008 version.  It has two generations of development, but there are plenty that are competitive from the first generation in the hands of amateur and expert road racers. 

With a plethora of race and OEM parts in the paddock, which is extremely important when you fall down, it's easy to get up and running even between races.  With years and years of development, it is also easy to build, maintain, and modify an SV650 to supersport or thunderbike specifications with a degree of reliability. 

I've seen SV's with all kinds of forks USD, I've seen them with all kinds of wheels, I've seen OEM dampening rod fork internals replaced with R6 cartridge internals, I've seen hand built tube frames, I've seen them with Ducati 999R bodywork...

Flatslides, air boxes, ram air...decide which class you want:  Supersport, Superbike, GP, Thunderbike.  Given that a well ridden SV650 superbike can turn a 1:13 at Blackhawk...well, how far do you want to go.



Back to spec class and cheap.  They are not synonomus. 

Quote from: Super Dave on October 17, 2007, 02:04:47 PM
Over many years, there have been many classes developed to offer something, as you say, different. 

However, they have yet to prove to have results in bringing entries.  At one time, there were Sportsman classes, and they have all been merged into existing classes, except for Ultra Lightweight Superbike, which would be a class that a 450 motard or derived road racer would be competitive.  That would still allow that bike to be raced in Thunderbike and LWGP.

Again, where are the modified motards? 

It would be cheap, as you claim.


Spec class?  I'm not sure how many times I can talk about an SV650.  It's a reliable, available motorcycle that has been built by Suzuki for ten model years, including the 2008 version.  It has two generations of development, but there are plenty that are competitive from the first generation in the hands of amateur and expert road racers. 

With a plethora of race and OEM parts in the paddock, which is extremely important when you fall down, it's easy to get up and running even between races.  With years and years of development, it is also easy to build, maintain, and modify an SV650 to supersport or thunderbike specifications with a degree of reliability. 

I've seen SV's with all kinds of forks USD, I've seen them with all kinds of wheels, I've seen OEM dampening rod fork internals replaced with R6 cartridge internals, I've seen hand built tube frames, I've seen them with Ducati 999R bodywork...

Flatslides, air boxes, ram air...decide which class you want:  Supersport, Superbike, GP, Thunderbike.  Given that a well ridden SV650 superbike can turn a 1:13 at Blackhawk...well, how far do you want to go.



Back to spec class and cheap.  They are not synonomus. 

Once again you miss the point.

I remember the sportsman class well and the bikes I raced competitively  there were the SRX, 500 Interceptor, Cagiva and MuZ.

What class is there now where an MuZ, SRX or almost any motard would be competietive??  And "cheap" by the way is open to perception.

SV = UJM =  :sleeping2:


The way you argue against any class changes makes me think youre a mole for Kevin and the CCS HQ....

I owned and raced an MZ.  As I said before, Ultra Lightweight Superbike.

And then follow exactly what I said for racing up.

The classes exist for the bikes you talk about.  Yet, even though some can be acquired and built "on the cheap", it doesn't happen very often at all.

Do you feel that the CCS class struture is bloated?  What classes have you raced?


As for me being a mole for CCS...LOL! 

Quote from: Super Dave on October 17, 2007, 03:11:12 PM
I owned and raced an MZ.  As I said before, Ultra Lightweight Superbike.

And then follow exactly what I said for racing up.

The classes exist for the bikes you talk about.  Yet, even though some can be acquired and built "on the cheap", it doesn't happen very often at all.

Do you feel that the CCS class struture is bloated?  What classes have you raced?


As for me being a mole for CCS...LOL! 

What class would the MuZ be "competitive" in? None! Yes, the classes exist as you say, but as I've pointed out several times, the bikes are not competitive in those classes.

The CCS class structure has always been bloated. Change has always been initiated from within. Kinda like this! In the not too distant future two strokes will be a fading memory and none of the new riders coming in will have any interest in that black art.

Sooo, show me a class that I can race something different in COMPETITIVELY and I'm in!

I tried almost all the lightweight and middle weight classes before I dropped out a few years back.

Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!

If I don't want to race a UJM there is no real class available. Oh, unless you wanna go Ducati. But thats a whole nother ball o shite.   

You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know..  

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 03:21:32 PM
What class would the MuZ be "competitive" in? None! Yes, the classes exist as you say, but as I've pointed out several times, the bikes are not competitive in those classes.

The CCS class structure has always been bloated. Change has always been initiated from within. Kinda like this! In the not too distant future two strokes will be a fading memory and none of the new riders coming in will have any interest in that black art.

Sooo, show me a class that I can race something different in COMPETITIVELY and I'm in!

I tried almost all the lightweight and middle weight classes before I dropped out a few years back.

Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!

If I don't want to race a UJM there is no real class available. Oh, unless you wanna go Ducati. But thats a whole nother ball o shite.   

MZ's won CCS Supersingles championships.  MZ's would be fine too now. 

Competitive is a relative term.  A 600cc bike can win middleweight and even unlimited classes.

I feel as though you're confusing classes with the idea of competition.  The classes exist based on the market opportuniities, in addition to various traditions of racing.  BMW's and Ducati's are opportunities if you don't like SV's, FZR's, EX's, etc.  EX500's and FZR400's aren't "competitive" anymore in LWSS, but that's an individual decision.  And don't forget the Buell's.

As for the black art of two strokes...

With the advent of the Red Bull program, I feel like the USGPRU series has seen a good amount of success.  Additionally, the USGPRU has shared some time at AMA Superbike events.  Two strokes are a black art just as much as suspension is.  Some will never understand it, but there are always people that can help you with it.

Quote from: Headdog122 on October 17, 2007, 03:22:52 PM
You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know.. 

I'm with you. 

I've been working on an H1 two stroke road racer for years.  I'll have to finish it and further ruin any opportunities for motard bikes and go after the SV's too...LOL!

Quote from: Headdog122 on October 17, 2007, 03:22:52 PM
You boys started boring me..  When I woke up I was at the bottom of this page and thought I would make a post..!!

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know..

Over 90hp from FZR400  !!
Boy your talking big .This is not a challenge to your skills I don't even know you but have you built a bike that's competitive in it's own class let alone out of it's class

Wow a built FZR!!!

Cool man!!! I don't know what would motivate a person to campain a bike like that, but I would like to see this unfold.  It will take a great bike and rider to do it.

When you get done with your FZR (grenade), see if you can take Key's SB SV down with it. 

Charlie Wright tried about three years ago with a 92 hp FZR, he could not do it. Charlie was a regular top 3 finsher when he was on his SV. 

Jason Temme (also an excellent rider) tried, and to the best of my recollection, never beat Ed on his hopped up FZR, although they did have some great races together.

But I am just here to watch the show, Soooo entertain away!!!  WhoooHooooo!!!

Ted Cobb seems to do well enough on a motard vs. the fastest SV guys in the country (minus Ed and Arnie).  Maybe its not the bike holding the motards back form being competive against the SV's.

Quote from: EX_#76 on October 17, 2007, 05:21:17 PM

Charlie Wright tried about three years ago with a 92 hp FZR, he could not do it. Charlie was a regular top 3 finsher when he was on his SV. 

You know Charlie? I work with him (at least till he got laid off) and his brother Steve.

As far as the topic at hand, you can petition for a new class but you will need to show the guys at the top that there is a market for this spec class. I'm not sure what a UJM is but I have an awful lot of fun running my SV so I'm not sure I want to know either (Please keep in mind that everyone has different tastes, if we all liked the same thing the world would be a very boring place, and while you like the 450 thumper I like the SV but there are just too many bikes to have a spec class for all of them so we compromise). Since it is impossible to create a class for every bike most riders get what they like based on existing classes. As far as your motard idea, it is very competitive in the Ultralight Weight class along with the FZRs and some Ducs. You also have the world of Super Motard to play in as well. If the 2 strokes do indeed disappear soon then that class could be eliminated and something new created to replace it but until then the class structure is pretty full up right now.

I don't think a set up XR650R would have any trouble with any bike in that class.
On a track like RA there may trouble ,but a fast fella on a tight track it may well be unbeatable!!

Quote from: Super Dave on October 17, 2007, 01:16:28 PM

  I've raced both two stroke and four strokes, and four stroke of even several eras prior.

Now you are showing your age.

Mark

UJM = Universal Japanese Motorcycle

Quote from: stk0308 on October 17, 2007, 07:54:58 PM
UJM = Universal Japanese Motorcycle

Funny thing is that the universal Japanese motorcycle has for many years had an I4 engine configuration. How many V-Twin Japanese motorcycles are there?

+1

UJM was the unfaired inline four Japanese bike.  But people can change terminology...

Quote from: roadracer22 on October 17, 2007, 07:46:33 PM
Now you are showing your age.

Mark

Nah, I'm not that old.  I have raced now since 1987, but I've raced bikes from the 60's and 70's too.

Well, I guess my age still is up to one's perspective though too...LOL! :kicknuts:

Please read it this time and leave out and SV content.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 03:21:32 PM
What class would the MuZ be "competitive" in? None! Yes, the classes exist as you say, but as I've pointed out several times, the bikes are not competitive in those classes.

The CCS class structure has always been bloated. Change has always been initiated from within. Kinda like this! In the not too distant future two strokes will be a fading memory and none of the new riders coming in will have any interest in that black art.

Sooo, show me a class that I can race something different in COMPETITIVELY and I'm in!

I tried almost all the lightweight and middle weight classes before I dropped out a few years back.

Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!

If I don't want to race a UJM there is no real class available. Oh, unless you wanna go Ducati. But thats a whole nother ball o shite.   

Quote:
"Let me throw this argument right back at you; what class would a NON-MODIFIED production motard be COMPETITIVE in? I can answer that for you again. NONE!"

Response thought:
The suggested new class is a modified Motard motor and chassis anyway right??

But I think that it can be competitive in Ultra Light Superbike.

Other bikes that are competitive in that class?

Ducati 800, Buell 900 (Tim Hall), Aprillia 250 (Fernando Ferreyra), Honda CRF450 (David Gaviria). all of these bikes have competed in the Florida region and have done well. Gaviria is ultra fast on that CRF which my FZR630 has trouble catching until he broke within half the season.

I wish the Motard had their own class because they are cleaning up in Florida. Ultra Light Superbike in Florida at times will see up to 14 bikes of all makes and models competing. Currently my son rides a FZR400 and it has caught my interest.

Modified 450 is just as much work and maintenance as the 125 2-stroke, if you wanna keep it running.

Mark

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 12:56:59 PM
And hey, I just found a full motarded 04 CRF450, in really nice shape for a shade over $3k! I'm in!!!   :thumb:

What dealership is that in? I'll go get it.

Mark

Mark... "...cleaning up in FL..."  does that mean just at Jennings?  B/C that's a smaller tighter track where bike type & size matters less, than say somewhere like VIR.

Hey Mike,

Love the onboard footage from your bike.

Of course we are talking the Ultra Light Superbike class. Gaviria seems to do well against the Thunderbikes also at Jennings.

Of the ten rounds in Florida including Daytona.
5 wins by a Motard rider at Homestead, Moroso and Jennings.
1 win by a Honda 650, Daytona
3 wins by an Aprillia 250 (Fernando at Jennings and Homestead)
1 win by and FZR400 (Mark Evry with a small turn out)

At Homestead in February the top 6 spots were covered by Motards with a Buell thrown in at second place.

At Moroso in March the top 5 spots were Motards.

Quote from: Headdog122 on October 17, 2007, 03:22:52 PM

Name the weapon and I'll build it...!!  Who would like to see a FZR400 take down the SV..??  Just let me know..  

I would love to see it. You got a motor? I would love to put one in my FZR400. Are we talking 560? But man will it last?

I do like the electric start as oppoesd to bump starting.

Mark

At this point the attached poll now shows 19 that would enter such a class :cheers: vs. two lonely souls who need hp and $$$ to mask lack of ability. :wah: (JOKING!!!)

In any case, its been fun debating the topic and I suspect I'll be back out next year on either my KTM or CRF450, just because they are the most fun I've had on track since the old Norton. Too bad it couldnt keep its gear box together....

Don Allen

If you thought these newer MX 450 motors take a lot to maintain in MX trim where they are rarely held WFO for long periods of time wait until they are rev'd to death for awhile without wheel spin and a nice cushion of dirt. Even in these conditions they come apart and drop valves regularly.

These things will be exploding in a grotesque manner on a regular basis as they vibrate themselves apart starve for oil and break valve parts. Most of the members here weren't around back when thumpers were relatively popular. Those things rattled themselves apart regularly due to vibration. These new 450's are much lighter and more highly strung.  :lmao:

Highly hung?

Quote from: Ducati23 on October 18, 2007, 07:06:21 PM
If you thought these newer MX 450 motors take a lot to maintain in MX trim where they are rarely held WFO for long periods of time wait until they are rev'd to death for awhile without wheel spin and a nice cushion of dirt. Even in these conditions they come apart and drop valves regularly.

These things will be exploding in a grotesque manner on a regular basis as they vibrate themselves apart starve for oil and break valve parts. Most of the members here weren't around back when thumpers were relatively popular. Those things rattled themselves apart regularly due to vibration. These new 450's are much lighter and more highly strung.  :lmao:

Sounds familiar
I n one regard I disagree there are alot of old thumpers running just fine.

I think Clayton is saying that the new thumper MX motors aren't the one's of old.  As for vibration, yeah, even my SV1000 vibrates some things off more so than all the four cylinder bikes I had.  Old and new singles still do this.

Regardless, the new MX singles are stressed race motors spinning high RPM's with big cams.

There is no comparison to my XT500 to a YZ450F other than they are single cylinder engines and they are made by Yamaha.  One can probably expect to see XT/TT/SR500's over a length of time.  Four stroke MX bikes will be consumed.

Hey Mike,
Watch out for that crafty Mark,hes one fast dude!! :thumb:

Quote from: resurrection on October 17, 2007, 04:54:14 PM
Over 90hp from FZR400  !!
Boy your talking big .This is not a challenge to your skills I don't even know you but have you built a bike that's competitive in it's own class let alone out of it's class

Brotha,

If you have to ask, you surely don't know me.  BTW....  "Betta Ask Somebody!!"  he,he,he...  And any bike I'm on is competitive..!!  Let me straddle my XR80....   :thumb:

Quote from: roadracer22 on October 18, 2007, 11:50:53 AM
I would love to see it. You got a motor? I would love to put one in my FZR400. Are we talking 560? But man will it last?

I do like the electric start as oppoesd to bump starting.

Mark

It will last..  And, I'll leave the electric start on for those less motivated..!!  he,he,he... 

Quote from: Headdog122 on October 18, 2007, 10:31:09 PM
Brotha,

If you have to ask, you surely don't know me.  BTW....  "Betta Ask Somebody!!"  he,he,he...  And any bike I'm on is competitive..!!  Let me straddle my XR80....   :thumb:

Cool in your next bike building project please consider our services.I'd like to meet you !

Quote from: Super Dave on October 18, 2007, 08:13:11 PM
I think Clayton is saying that the new thumper MX motors aren't the one's of old.  As for vibration, yeah, even my SV1000 vibrates some things off more so than all the four cylinder bikes I had.  Old and new singles still do this.

Regardless, the new MX singles are stressed race motors spinning high RPM's with big cams.

There is no comparison to my XT500 to a YZ450F other than they are single cylinder engines and they are made by Yamaha.  One can probably expect to see XT/TT/SR500's over a length of time.  Four stroke MX bikes will be consumed.

Any carbs for old yam?

One of the USGPRU regulars has friends in Japan running the 250 4 stroke class. The engines are based on the 250 motocross singles. I am not sure how modified the engines are, but they are slower than 125s and the pistons of the 250s are replaced every race weekend.

Quote from: BadBoyRR on October 17, 2007, 01:34:43 AM
http://www.transworldmotocross.com/mx/features/article/0,13190,485640,00.html

I think a big part of the appeal of a four-stroke is that they're extremely durable. The four-stroke motor can perform at a high level for much longer than a two-stroke can. The performance is high and very consistent. And not only that, they're generally easier to maintain, including the fact that you don't even need to mix oil with the gas. Two-strokes certainly have their advantages as well, but they've no doubt been dealt a severe hand with the success of the four-strokes. And if their demand continues to go down, we could certainly see them become obsolete in the future.

I believe 2st.With direct inj.and light wt.May have virtues on the basis's theirs less reciprocating mass and therefore higher mpg's potential.
The highbreads would really benefit from these virtues.They may have a bright future (you read it here first)

I think its time for a Can-Am CCS class!  Turbo's, superchargers, bored out engines, multiple engines, Huge wings, Intakes sticking out the top of the tank etc....

Quote from: Hawk on October 17, 2007, 06:40:41 PM
You know Charlie? I work with him (at least till he got laid off) and his brother Steve.

As far as the topic at hand, you can petition for a new class but you will need to show the guys at the top that there is a market for this spec class. I'm not sure what a UJM is but I have an awful lot of fun running my SV so I'm not sure I want to know either (Please keep in mind that everyone has different tastes, if we all liked the same thing the world would be a very boring place, and while you like the 450 thumper I like the SV but there are just too many bikes to have a spec class for all of them so we compromise). Since it is impossible to create a class for every bike most riders get what they like based on existing classes. As far as your motard idea, it is very competitive in the Ultralight Weight class along with the FZRs and some Ducs. You also have the world of Super Motard to play in as well. If the 2 strokes do indeed disappear soon then that class could be eliminated and something new created to replace it but until then the class structure is pretty full up right now.

Yep, Charlie is a real nice guy.  He went to school to get an electrical engineering degree.  I believe that he has graduated.

Quote from: KTG on October 21, 2007, 09:58:58 PM
I think its time for a Can-Am CCS class!  Turbo's, superchargers, bored out engines, multiple engines, Huge wings, Intakes sticking out the top of the tank etc....

Done and tried.  Methanol GSXR1100's, 500cc GP bikes, 250 GP bikes with Nitrous, turbo bikes.  Was called Formula USA, started at Willow Springs, then bought and moved to WERA, and then independent.  CCE got it when it bought SFX which recently acquired CCS at the end of 1999.

Where can I get the plastic?

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv640%2Flumpy790%2FMar%252007%2520Fla%2Fscan0001.jpg&hash=b2e47dc2643d86a4f89ca52696d5e997aeb8e7f6)

(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv640%2Flumpy790%2FMar%252007%2520Fla%2Fscan0003.jpg&hash=af46e866b571b484168e113603ce8433e276f5ed)

Quote from: EX_#76 on October 23, 2007, 10:46:08 AM
Yep, Charlie is a real nice guy.  He went to school to get an electrical engineering degree.  I believe that he has graduated.

Yeah, Steve is getting some kind of degree in financial stuff, not sure what exactly. He's thinking about coming back to the race track just for a little fun once he gets done with school. Small world.

WERA rules...

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?p=1816230#post1816230