I think CCS needs to consider whether this is a LW bike, or just a thunderbike, or something else.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=30405
The HP2 Sport keep the 1170cc (101.0 x 73.0mm bore x stroke), air-and-oil-cooled, opposed Twin ("Boxer") engine of the R 1200 S, but the engine has been fitted with chain-driven, double overhead cams in place of the High Cam and push rod configuration of the R 1200 S
Peak horsepower output is claimed to be 128 at 8750 rpm, while peak torque is 84.8 lbs.-ft. at 6000 rpm (up from 122 bhp @ 8250 rpm and 83.0 lbs.-ft. of torque @ 6800 rpm on the R 1200 S).Peak horsepower output is claimed to be 128 at 8750 rpm, while peak torque is 84.8 lbs.-ft. at 6000 rpm (up from 122 bhp @ 8250 rpm and 83.0 lbs.-ft. of torque @ 6800 rpm on the R 1200 S).
Sounds like the next hot-setup! I love to see new LW bikes being designed that push the current boundary of Light Weight. The FT500 was killed by the Hawk, the Hawk by the SV, the SV by the Buell, now the Buell by the BMW. Change is good!
I'd call it a middleweight, especially if it's true that Nate may race one in AMA FX.
I am told if it fits in the LW Class rules structure then it is lightweight. If it's good for one it is good for all regardless of the HP value.
Mark
If you think it does not fit the spirit of the LW classes, you can write to Kevin Elliott and give him specifics on the technical reasons it should be disallowed and it will be considered for next years rules.
Do it now, as it's the end of the season and they will be reviewing rules very soon.
CCS rules allow twins up to 1100cc's with four valves per cylinder in LWSS.
This is an 1170 with four valves per cylinder. It gets bumped out of LWSS, but still allowed in LWSB according to a quick look at the current rules.
Yikes. The air-cooled stuff is starting to get out of hand. When you've got bikes that fit the rules for LW putting out stock HP and Torque that would make MW guys jealous, that's a problem IMO.
Ridgeway,
Remeber what you said on the other thread?
Quote "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike. Period.
Using that logic, the Roberts clan should be able to run their GP bike in WSBK. As far as the actual rule modification goes, do you really expect the rules for LWSB to be modified with a "P.S. Honda F2's are allowed"?"
If it fits into the rule structure then run it. We shouldn't change the rule to exclude the newest bike if we don't change the rule to include the oldest bike. Lets leave it as it is and when a bike isn't competitive anymore then that guy will have to deal with it.
My thought though is this. This is "club level racing". This is more of a sportsman type of organization. If you wanna make something of it, go with ASRA.
Mark
exactly, this is club racing, that is why a $30,000 motorcycle shouldn't be lgal in lightweight.
Quote from: ahastings on October 03, 2007, 11:56:13 PM
exactly, this is club racing, that is why a $30,000 motorcycle shouldn't be lgal in lightweight.
This says it all how can middle class people out for a fun weekend trying not to spend money compete with some one with so much disposable money.
If you can afford a bike like this to crash, go race with your other showoff friends
Rules are rules, folks.
I'm sure Ed Key might not want to think about how much time and money he's invested in his supersport bike. TZ250's are very expensive also.
If someone can figure out verbage for rules that make it that you can only spend so much money on a bike, please feel free to submit it to CCS.
Racing is about solutions, though. Decide on your best bike, develop it with the money you have. Figure out low cost solutions. A lot of those are about developing one's riding, a cheaper solution often.
Quote from: Ridgeway on October 03, 2007, 09:52:40 PM
Yikes. The air-cooled stuff is starting to get out of hand. When you've got bikes that fit the rules for LW putting out stock HP and Torque that would make MW guys jealous, that's a problem IMO.
A lot of that stuff has been available on the books for years and years and years and years. But seldom does that stuff come out.
There are air cooled two strokes that make 120 reliable HP that could be ran in Lightweight. But there aren't many of them. Similarly, I don't expect a whole bunch of BMW's to show up. Nate's been on them for a good while now, and I am still waiting for someone to do one up for the midwest.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 04, 2007, 07:25:17 AM
Similarly, I don't expect a whole bunch of BMW's to show up. Nate's been on them for a good while now, and I am still waiting for someone to do one up for the midwest.
If my R1100S turns up missing I think my first call might be to Eagle, WI!
There was a GS at my house on Sunday.
It's not without precedent to disallow certain bikes that would upset the competitive balance in a class despite the fact that they are legal for the class rules on paper...
For example:
No SuperMonos in Lightweight SuperSport.
No XBRRs or 749s in CCS Thunderbike.
no one complains about a $30,000 bimota but it's legal just because nate can wheel one around has not made light weight a BMW fest.
The issue here is not changing the nature of the LW class, but keeping it. F2 is a different question, taking a bike that's been around 15 years and trying to change the rules to waive it in.
My issue is keeping the LW class a reasonable playing field. No question air cooled bikes get a displacement advantage, but how much? That's the question. In my mind, the limits may now need tinkering b/c of technology changes, something like:
- 1200cc for pushrod 2 valve heads
- 1100cc for overhead cam 2 valve heads
- 1000cc for overhead cam 4 valve heads.
Before, there just weren't any 4 valve/overhead cam 1170cc twins. Now there is, and the question is ... is that a LW bike? The point of my post was CCS should think about it and make an explicit decision, b/c it looks more like a hole in the rules than an intentional rulemaking intended to let 1200cc 4 valve twins compete in the LW class -- which is in contrast with the intentional rulemaking excluding liquid cooled 4 cylinders over 400cc.
Quote from: xseal on October 05, 2007, 02:39:35 PMThe point of my post was CCS should think about it and make an explicit decision, b/c it looks more like a hole in the rules than an intentional rulemaking intended to let 1200cc 4 valve twins compete in the LW class -- which is in contrast with the intentional rulemaking excluding liquid cooled 4 cylinders over 400cc.
Do you mean 600cc's?
I completely agree that the issue that comes into play here is the valvetrain configuration. It is very difficult to get any of the 2 valve heads to breath enough for kind of serious power that the BMW claims. The Ducati (desmo) motors do breath better than the Buel (pushrod) motors so I can see giving Buel a bit of additional displacement. Since the BMW (4 valve configuration) flows so much better than either of the other air cooled designs there should be some additional displacement concession there vs. the Ducati.
I guess the problem is that (to my knowledge) BMW doesn't make a 1000cc ohc 4 valve motor - just one in 1170cc so what you are effectively doing is outright eliminating the BMW from the LW class.
Not that I expect to see any out on the grids anytime soon in the MW region even if it was LW legal...
George
All of these issues are really not that significant. Constantly changing rules to ensure fairness is just dumb. As one writer said, this is club racing- I have another reply to that, It just doesn't matter that much! No one complains about Cagiva's LWSS legal bike, after the 1000ss its probably the next best. The suspension is amazing. The complaining is always about HP, never about standard suspension components.
For me, the one aspect that sets the LW classes apart from the rest are the people. Very few in LW are "out for blood", or drink themselves into a stuper on Saturday night. If you haven't looked around lately... its an older crowd too! Racers that have something to prove will metriculate to the middleweight (and above) classes. This is the primary reason why it just doesn't matter.
Racing is supposed to be fun, but for many LW guys is more about building the bike than riding the bike. Upping the ante, so to speak, just gives many of us better winter projects! I like winning too, but I take more pride in building a bike that a great rider could win on. Bring on the competition!
you maybe right a fast rider isn't going to be in lightwt it's going to either be an old and slow or a cheap guy on the new bike( of course it's not the cheap guy) .so it's still one of us.
Don't get the wrong impression. I certainly don't mean the "older crowd" to insinuate "less talent" Arguably, the most talented rider in Midwest region is over 50, and most of the top finishers in all LW classes are over 40. But I like your analysis of the situation, it appears that many of the highly involved racers in LW don't change much year-to-year.
I've also noted that many of the regulars in the LW classes have professional background. There are a lot of Engineers (or similar) around. Many of these guys take pride in building a bike and are less inclined to purchase the new hotness.
Does anyone really think that the BMW would be faster at Blackhawk or Gingerman? Club racers have nothing to fear.
Quote from: ahastings on October 03, 2007, 11:56:13 PM
exactly, this is club racing, that is why a $30,000 motorcycle shouldn't be lgal in lightweight.
I think that there are many that will spend that. There is a Duc 1000DS in the Florida region that reportedly cost upwards of $40K and then sold at a discounted $27K just becuase the racer was going to cars. It is one fast bike and with Woods on board tore up the track. With the most current owner it doesn't do as well in finishes but it still is fast.
I will stick with my old slow FZR. Bought for $1500, upgrades of $4500. Works well for me in Thunderbike and LW F40. But then again I am slow too.
Mark
Quote from: 123user on October 07, 2007, 10:01:41 PM
Arguably, the most talented rider in Midwest region is over 50,
Thank you... :cheers:
Surely he was talking about me Eeky, no? :biggrin:
UH? ... yeah not you! I'm sure your great (and all) but I was thinking about someone else. He goes about 130lbs, 120lbs if you shaved his back!
Maybe someone is thinking about the 1000DS based NCR bike. It is expensive, and fast. There was one at RA, it was stupid-fast. It's lightweight is what sets it apart though, the motor mod's are actually kept fairly conservative for reliability (+4mm pistons) I think it weighs about 340lbs wet, meanwhile my 1000ss weighs 365 lbs wet- but my combined bike+rider weight is 615lbs... you do the math.
Really the best mod for the 1000ds (aside from blueprinting the thing) is the FIM ecu. Totally programable RPM limit, fully programable fuel tables (front and rear), fully programable spark table, fully programable injector phase map, no more black key/red key immobilizer bolony. Unfortunately, its very complicated to program and understand and most dealership-level monkeys aren't willing (or able) to learn. Once you see what can be done with the U59 ecu, you'll be saying Power-what?
I've had the pleasure this season of building a DS motored Ducati Sport Classic and trying my hand as a first year expert.
I built the bike myself, get constant compliments(Hell Bemisderfer liked it)from everyone and met a lot of great new people this year.
The highlight of my season was being next to the Deeley #123 bike a month ago at Summit for CCS Thunderbike and right behind #1 Nate, and making it through T1. Being able to walk up to a guy like Diaz and ask for tips on "how to survive"... I finished(slow 10th of the 22), and had a blast.
I will continue to evolve my "new vintage" ThunderDuc as long as the classes permit-I plan to keep it forever as it's an emotional bike for me.
Bring on the Hp2, or the 1125R.....just don't push me out so I can still have fun with you guys for another 20yrs. I'm 34 and just getting fast..but I want to have fun and go home and see my wife and son too- no one's paying me to race.
I don't post much-but I sure read and it's great that this all is out in the air-and that CCS does care. I will be dropping WERA next season as my bike is now illegal in LTWT due to my laced tubeless spokes not being OEM... no biggie, I could run in Hvwt-just prefer not to.
mark you forgot about the 80,000 bimota and your being modest if you had a real tire on the back you got no worries.