Here goes:
I would like to see the Honda F2's allowed in the lightweight classes. Some of my reasons are based on the previous Thunderbike Post with the HP Vs. Weight dilemma. Buell's can enter these classes with over 100HP, but I can't. The SV's are definately competitive as well, just look at the results. They run lightweight classes, Thunderbike and take wins, however, we can't do the same. So I believe the unfair advantage rule doesn't count. The other reason I have is that others would like to be able to enter other races competitively. This would mean more money for Kevin E. and promote the sport since it is easier and less expensive for new riders to get an older bike and race before they upgrade. I have to admit, I do enter other classes such as middleweight GP just to have some fun. I really don't want to go into a huge debate here, so I want to keep this short and ask you (who are interested) to allow the F2's in. I could obviously give more points or an opinion but I want to leave that up to the readers. So email away or email Kevin to possibly
look into this!
Thanks Everyone!
:cheers:
No.
I do not understand the logic of allowing F2s in LW40 but not the other LW classes. I currently have an F2 and do well in LW40. At least allow them in LWGP if nothing else.
Quote from: F2RGK on September 21, 2007, 01:26:38 AM
Does this mean you're scared?
Kind of hard for him to know what's out there to be scared of when the only CCS he ran was at Gateway! :kicknuts:
:biggrin:
F2's (and any other 600 I4) dont belong in any regular LW class (ss, sb, gp). Honestly I wish they would had left the sportsmans class (which thunderbike was derived from). It was a place for older bikes. How about a class for discontinued bikes with a min age of 8 yrs? More of a fun class.
I'm with Rob.
In 1993, my CBR600F2 made 93HP in Supersport trim. I don't know of any lightweight supersport bikes that make that kind of power.
Quote from: benprobst on September 20, 2007, 07:55:40 PM
No.
Quote from: F2RGK on September 20, 2007, 07:34:40 PM
Here goes:
I would like to see the Honda F2's allowed in the lightweight classes. Some of my reasons are based on the previous Thunderbike Post with the HP Vs. Weight dilemma. Buell's can enter these classes with over 100HP, but I can't. The SV's are definately competitive as well, just look at the results. They run lightweight classes, Thunderbike and take wins, however, we can't do the same. So I believe the unfair advantage rule doesn't count. The other reason I have is that others would like to be able to enter other races competitively. This would mean more money for Kevin E. and promote the sport since it is easier and less expensive for new riders to get an older bike and race before they upgrade. I have to admit, I do enter other classes such as middleweight GP just to have some fun. I really don't want to go into a huge debate here, so I want to keep this short and ask you (who are interested) to allow the F2's in. I could obviously give more points or an opinion but I want to leave that up to the readers. So email away or email Kevin to possibly
look into this!
Thanks Everyone!
:cheers:
There is no way that they belong in LWSS, maybe SB
According to the Ducati site the 1000 makes 92 HP. I have been told that Jason Edmonds (CCS #17) Ducati DS1000 makes 95-98 HP in Supersport race trim.
As for my built FZR600 bored to 630 according to Prieto Racing in Pompano makes 98 rwhp.
I am curious as to what Eric Helmbach's F2 has for motor and the power it produces. It was pretty fast at Daytona in March.
The underlying statement that I have heard is that an inline four will never be a LW bike.
I will be relegated to running the LW F40 and Thunderbike only.
From the Ducati site;
Type: L-Twin cylinder, 2 valve per cylinder Desmodromic, air cooled
Displacement: 992cc
Bore and stroke: 94 x 71,5mm
Compression Ratio: 10.01
Power*: 67.7 kW - 92 HP @ 8000 rpm
Torque*: 91.1 Nm - 9.3 kgm @ 6000 rpm
Fuel system: Marelli electronic fuel injection, 45mm throttle body
Exhaust: Black exhaust system with one muffler per side
Emissions: Euro 3
Transmission
Gearbox: 6 speed
Ratio: 1st 37/15, 2nd 30/17, 3rd 27/20, 4th 24/22, 5th 23/24, 6th 24/28
Primary drive: Straight cut gears; Ratio 1.84:1
Final drive: Chain; Front sprocket 15; Rear sprocket 39
Clutch: Wet multiplate with hydraulic control
Notes: * = Data calculated using an inertia dynamometer
Quote from: roadracer22 on September 21, 2007, 01:51:11 PM
According to the Ducati site the 1000 makes 92 HP. I have been told that Jason Edmonds (CCS #17) Ducati DS1000 makes 95-98 HP in Superot race trim.
As for my built FZR600 bored to 630 according to Prieto Racing in Pompano makes 98 rwhp.
From the Ducati site;
Type: L-Twin cylinder, 2 valve per cylinder Desmodromic, air cooled
Displacement: 992cc
Bore and stroke: 94 x 71,5mm
Compression Ratio: 10.01
Power*: 67.7 kW - 92 HP @ 8000 rpm
Torque*: 91.1 Nm - 9.3 kgm @ 6000 rpm
Fuel system: Marelli electronic fuel injection, 45mm throttle body
Exhaust: Black exhaust system with one muffler per side
Emissions: Euro 3
Transmission
Gearbox: 6 speed
Ratio: 1st 37/15, 2nd 30/17, 3rd 27/20, 4th 24/22, 5th 23/24, 6th 24/28
Primary drive: Straight cut gears; Ratio 1.84:1
Final drive: Chain; Front sprocket 15; Rear sprocket 39
Clutch: Wet multiplate with hydraulic control
Notes: * = Data calculated using an inertia dynamometer
I don't think the Ducati 1000 belongs in SS either (sorry George) SB and everything else OK.
Guy I absolutely agree with you. I do think it would be ok in the LWSB and LWGP classes though.
Mark
Ron,
I made the exact formal rules change request in each of the prior two years. Each year I was flatly told that it absolutely wasn't going to happen.
Here was the logic from Kevin and Eric when I had called them to discuss their position. Thunerbike is basically the old Sportsman class and LW bikes entering this is considered a "bump up" race. LW F-40 is based on Thunderbike rules, rather than LW rules (a bit odd, but that is what I was told).
Personally the only issue I would have with the rules change now is that I just sold mine. From a fundamental perspective I wouldn't have an issue with them in LW GP or GT Lights (hell, the 250 GP bikes are faster so no problem there) or Superbike. I don't run SS so I've got no dog in that hunt.
I do know that my F2 was much faster than my Ducati. If people complain that the Ducati is a cheater LW bike then I don't think you will have much popular support for bringing in the F2's into the general LW grids.
Go ahead and follow the proceedure for suggesting a rules change. See if you get any better response than I did.
George
Quote from: F2RGK on September 21, 2007, 01:26:38 AM
Does this mean you're scared?
No it doesnt mean im scared. There arent any lightweight amatuers in CCS im scared of, hell there arent any in the country, no matter what leightweight bike they're on. What it means is its an inline 4 cylinder motorcycle that easily makes 100hp and is currently illegal, and should remain that way. I think they are allowed in F40 to help grid sizes. Old guys like old bikes, and they want a class they can be competitive in on an uncompetitve motorcycle. I also do not think the DUC1000 should be allowed in SS. I race WERA, the 1000 are not allowed in SS, and must run SS trim in all other SB classes. I think thats how it should be. I think the 1000 is in the LW class just like why the BMW was in the LW class, a company built a motorcycle that fit within the current rules and was the fastest. Sadly for both 1000 owners and F2 owners, rules tend to progress not digress, so I think the 1000 will be moved out of SS soon, and the F2 will remain as it is, obsolete.
Doesn't LWF40 allow Tbike rules? That's why the F2 is allowed in LWF40. Someone could run a Superbike CB900F with 130HP if they wanted too.
As for the Ducati site saying how much HP their bike makes...those claims are from the crank, not the rear wheel.
Quote from: Super Dave on September 22, 2007, 07:25:58 AM
As for the Ducati site saying how much HP their bike makes...those claims are from the crank, not the rear wheel.
Right, and from what I have seen, most bike in true SS race trim make about what the factories "claim" their bikes make stock.
Ben,
Back to our old argument. I think technology progresses and the rules catch up later. Isn't that why the SV has become THE spec LW bike. Remember when the LW class was for the 400cc inline 4s and the Honda Hawk (a 3 valve 650 cc V-twin which was on par with the 400's)? Then Suzuki builds a Liquid cooled 4 valve V-twin which is legal - they take over the class. Shouldn't the rules have been re-written because the SV was so much better than the FZR400 or the Hawk? No, technology progresses, it was a legal bike and took over the class.
That Mongo wants to keep the SV guys reasonably happy and handicaps the Ducati is a WERA issue. I like the current CCS rule structure better and its the reason I decided not to renew my WERA license.
I'm looking forward for your exit from LW and your entry into the big bike class just so you will stop whining about the Ducati's and Buells that are so unfair racing against you. You know, for all your complaining, your superbike SV puts out more power and weighs 70 lbs less than my Superbike Ducati. Its not the bike Ben - its the rider.
George
Quote from: Super Dave on September 22, 2007, 07:25:58 AMSomeone could run a Superbike CB900F with 130HP if they wanted too.
That would be cool wouldn't it?? Maybe I will try it.
Mark
Hey George, I knew it wouldnt be long before you came. :biggrin: The truth is, I almost never complain about racing against the Ducs or the Buells. I race a superbike SV, if your a half way decent mechanic and race bike builder, the SV's are nearly every bit as potent as the Ducs and Buells. I normally just support that the Ducs/Buells should not be allowed into SS. My motorcycle has probably 13 - 16 thousand dollars in it total (at new bike price), and it runs competitivly with 8-9 thousand dollar Ducs.
And yes, I hear your argument about the ole' 400's and what not. And I guess its a good point, the SV's advantage over the FZR's was similar to the Ducs and Buells over the SV. I guess the thing that just really sticks out is the sv's only have an additional 150cc, while the Ducs have 350 and the Buells have damn near 600cc.
I guess my question would be, what HP did GOOD SS FZR's make back in the day?
As for your motorcycle, If you are making less horsepower than my SV, you need to go back to race bike building school. Because with a pipe, good mapping, and above average fuel your should be making at least the same as my bike and probably 5 - 6 more. Thats not even with doing the mildest of SS builds. And yes, the weight is the primary advantage to the SV's sadly at most of the important tracks ( national implications ) the lack of weight isnt a deciding factor in top speed, and the enourmous amounts of torque the big slugs give the Buells and Ducs its hard to make it all up on acceleration.
Aside from that, nice talking to you as always George, you always bring good points to the table, even if like mine they tend to be the same all the time :biggrin: Looking forward to the next LW legal/illegal thread already :cheers:
The lightweight class structure is perfect. I doubt adding F2's would change the podiums much, but a properly built SS f2/f3 will really cook. FTZ in cape girardeau builds 100+ HP F2's that would probably pass wera tech.
CCS has been successful by being inclusive. WERA however has not seen any growth in the last 10 years. Wera splits hairs over meaningless issue and have become more like NASCAR than a club racing organization.
If it means more racers, more competition, larger grids for the LW classes, then F2's could be let in. Fact is that F2's aren't made anymore, and thanks to the micro-sprint crowd, they are getting a little scarce. I just don't think it would matter. I'm indifferent.
George is right, the bike just doesn't matter much at most short tracks. Besides, if your really serious about winning, you should buy the most competive bike. Not piss and moan about the fairness of the class structure. CCS has only 1 spec. class (125gp) and doesn't need more.
Ben, here it goes!
Have you ever considered that the Duc's in WERA are cheating, have you seen one torn down? If you saw Georges SB duc and my SS duc side my side going down the straight, you'd see the difference. I spent 3 hours on a factorypro dyno this weekend getting the map and spark table perfect for Daytona. The result: 78 hp It does however hold the power level for 1500 rpm at the top. Really, any monkey can buy an 1st gen SV, and build it to that power level for much less that the cost of the duc. And just ask George, the SV's ARE more reliable and easier to maintain... even a with a full tilt motor. But we're just benchracing anyway... so there will be no clear winner :jerkoff:
Quote from: 123user on September 22, 2007, 09:49:49 PM
Ben, here it goes!
Have you ever considered that the Duc's in WERA are cheating, have you seen one torn down? If you saw Georges SB duc and my SS duc side my side going down the straight, you'd see the difference. I spent 3 hours on a factorypro dyno this weekend getting the map and spark table perfect for Daytona. The result: 78 hp It does however hold the power level for 1500 rpm at the top. Really, any monkey can buy an 1st gen SV, and build it to that power level for much less that the cost of the duc. And just ask George, the SV's ARE more reliable and easier to maintain... even a with a full tilt motor. But we're just benchracing anyway... so there will be no clear winner :jerkoff:
yes, ive seen 2 torn down, both built by the same motorbuilder that is building my competitions bikes. They passed. Im sorry but any monkey with a wrench can make 90 hp with their ducati like you have, and the guys with actualy talent and experience make 95-100. Like I said, the bikes are comparitive in SB, I just dont think so in SS.
And where have you been getting your numbers on club growth? Id suggest taking a look at grid sizes, as well as depth before you say WERA hasnt experienced growth, sure they may have lost a few grid fillers to CCS and the regional stuff may now be not THAT much different for turn out at the big races for CCS vs. the small races for WERA. But the national stuff isnt even comparable. The grids in CCS GP are down right embarassing, and from what ive seen the MW grids arent much better, even at home tracks like BHF. But I havent been to a CCS race for a while, so maybe they got a bunch bigger this year.
Quote from: benprobst on September 23, 2007, 08:48:02 PM
The grids in CCS GP are down right embarassing, and from what ive seen the MW grids arent much better, even at home tracks like BHF. But I havent been to a CCS race for a while, so maybe they got a bunch bigger this year.
Ben,
Please stop talking out of your ass!
You race one CCS race this year at Gateway and now you've developed an opinion on 2 regions. Were you at Topeka? Were you at Road America with 1800+ entries?
I worked Tech and Grid or Starter at all of the Midwest and Midwest/Great Plains combined races this year. I still have the Grid sheets from the last 2 race weekends at Blackhawk. Would you like some facts on the size of the Grids or would that contradict your opinion.
Opinions are great as long they are based on some semblance of accuracy.
Oh, and by the way, my opinion is that the Moon is made out of Swiss cheese!
Fire away!!!!!
WERA is dead anywhere west of Ohio and East of Colorado. That's where I live (you too) If you want to drive 8 hours to ride on go-cart track. That's up to you.
The WERA rulebook is more similar to AHRMA than any modern racing organization. No offense to AHRMA, vintage racing is really cool.
If you look at attendence in anything below "C" class, participation is spotty. There's a lot of race results in D superbike, clubman, and two stroke classes with one, two, or three entries. Who the heck is racing RZ350's anymore? CCS has combined all the stragglers into ultra-lightweight. This keep the cost of racing down for the average guy. When a Hawk GT is the most current bike in a couple of classes, the rulebook is out of date; unless your AHRMA
I'm also weary of the HP game. One dyno says 90, another says 100. Lets go over to gateway on a tuesday night and see how different our top speed through the trap is. That's the best indicator of HP. I'd bet that our two bikes would only be off by a couple of MPH. I'm sure your 60 foot times would be better, no dry clutch to manhandle.
Ben,
This has gotten far off the subject of Ron's original post. Ron didn't start this subject to debate the Suzuki/Ducati/Buell issue or to talk about the size and rate of change of CCS MW/GP grids. His request was simply for those racing the LW class to indicate if they would support his petition to add the Honda CBR F2 into the LW grids in the hopes that Kevin/Eric would consider making a rules change.
I said "FINE in LW GP and SB" while you say "HELL NO" - so lets just agree that you and I disagree.
If you want to start your own topic proposing that CCS addopt the WERA rules please start your own thread rather than thread-jacking Ron's post. I know that this is a subject that is very important to him and he would appreciate keeping the topic clear.
How about a response from anybody else with a vested interest in the CCS LW classes (ie - only those who plan on racing LW next year).
Allow the F2 into the LW classes - Yes or No?
Thanks,
George
:pop:
Quote from: George_Linhart on September 24, 2007, 02:51:16 PM
Ben,
This has gotten far off the subject of Ron's original post. Ron didn't start this subject to debate the Suzuki/Ducati/Buell issue or to talk about the size and rate of change of CCS MW/GP grids. His request was simply for those racing the LW class to indicate if they would support his petition to add the Honda CBR F2 into the LW grids in the hopes that Kevin/Eric would consider making a rules change.
I said "FINE in LW GP and SB" while you say "HELL NO" - so lets just agree that you and I disagree.
If you want to start your own topic proposing that CCS addopt the WERA rules please start your own thread rather than thread-jacking Ron's post. I know that this is a subject that is very important to him and he would appreciate keeping the topic clear.
How about a response from anybody else with a vested interest in the CCS LW classes (ie - only those who plan on racing LW next year).
Allow the F2 into the LW classes - Yes or No?
Thanks,
George
Agreed sir, ill make another post when I get home, but that was going to be the gist of it, I dont always agree with the CCS rules, and I prefer the WERA org. You, obviously, are the opposite, so we chose to run our respective org. And I dont really race CCS at all so I have no say in any rule changes to allow F2's in or not.
Ben
Its agreed! You'll stop beating the horses back, we'll stop beating the horses front.
If including f2's will increase the grid size significantly I'd support it. I just don't think it will... then again, it seems f2/f3 pilots crash a lot. The motors are so strong, their operators forget their on a 400lb Hawk-era chassis. This could really add excitement for the spectators.
On another subject, you got time to put a foot instead of a knee down anytime?
I wish Scott. Ive been so busy with the road racing thing I havent even touched my dirtbike since a couple of bearings blew up inside of my rear wheel. I think I can fix it with a dremel or some carbide bits on my angle die (sp?). But I dont think im going to do anything until after the GNF, thats what this whole year has been about, heading down south to try to win some national championships before I go to get my ass whooped by the big boys next year.
You going to Daytona? I was thinking about it, but I have no CCS points and I dont think I can run down my buddy Ted (who rides a Duc) from the back of the grid.
I've been running an old f2 for years in thunderbike and the past two years in f40. I've been petitioning Kevin and Eric to allow it in some lightweight classes previously and their response was that it could be built up to make a significant amount of more power than the other lightweight bikes. But that could also be said about the ducatis and the buells, and I don't think there are alot of people going to spend a boatload of money to increase the power on a fifteen year old bike. I think it should at least be allowed in lightweight superbike and gp.
Ben,
We're leaving for Daytona on Oct. 12. Gonna take a vacation before ROC. My wife is excited... first trip in two years where we sleep in a motel instead of tent/van.
The back of the grid is bad place to start at any track, but at Daytona its pretty hopeless. In LWSS I should be starting on either row 1 or 2, that works out to 2 laps before the whole field passes me.
eh427,
I don't think you need to spend a boatload of money to make an f2 fast. High comps, available cams make 100hp... easy. If I had one lying around I'd do it, but your right, I wouldn't go out of my way to build one. See's that most people are worried more about undertails, skinny tails, an razor shaped bodywork that the chassis. The flexi-flier won't have a chance
Well if they allow the F2 in LWSB and LWGP where will it end? 2-3 yrs later someone wants their 99 R6 allowed in LWSB and LWGP?
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on September 25, 2007, 01:59:21 PM
Well if they allow the F2 in LWSB and LWGP where will it end? 2-3 yrs later someone wants their 99 R6 allowed in LWSB and LWGP?
Your right. What we need is a vintage class. MW vintage could be open to all bike that are a minimum of 4 years old.
since the 02 is essentially the same as the 99 R6 could you run that! I would RULE!!!
Could go right along with my other first place trophy I got for winning Super Twins on my 02R6 :biggrin:
Now if only I traded in the old girl for a newer model... :wah:
Ok fellas,
Sorry I haven't written to reply...just got back from Florida. Anyway, thanks George for straightening things out for me (being the Heavy) things got a little off track. Regardless of F2's being built to the hilt, let's face it, 100hp is about it, reliably, and I use that word strongly. Anyone that knows an F2, it takes an aweful lot to make it go. For instance, a stock F2 is around 80-85 HP....now take a stock F3 and were talking a huge jump in HP...98. Regardless, in stock form the F2 can run Lw classes, no problem. If you build it, so what. It is going to make a 100hp. Look at the other bikes that are running with bigger HP in the LW classes. The last time I checked....a HP is still a HP. My whole point was to let them in to make a bigger grid, give Kevin more money, enjoy racing at an entry level that's inexpensive compared to buying a new bike. I have a lot of customers that would love to try and race, but the first words out of their mouths,"It's too expensive." All last year I ran with 82 hp on my F2 and I ran in Thunderbike, GTU's, and even a middleweight GP. I faired well last year considering I rode a Terd! Regardless, I ran my race, it was cheap, and best of all I had fun! Oh yeah, almost forgot....Ben, I ride an F2 because I like upsetting people when I win on a "20 Something" year old bike, to take buell money, and to prove you don't have to ride a brand new bike to be competitive, NOT BECAUSE I AM OLD! Anyway, I appreciate all of the opinions from everyone! Thanks!!
Are you sure you don't just want an F2 because the chassis can carry so much bodywork- Those things made the 904 ducati look normal. Or maybe you own stock in a fiberglass company, and each new set of race plastic takes 20 square feed of 'glass.
I like Guy's idea about the vintage class, it could be popular. Except maybe instead of 4 years, it could be 15. you could pick up a used Katana for $800 and impress your friends by plowing the front around everywhere.
Neither hear nor there! It's just an inexpensive bike to run. Regardless whether I run an F2 or not, I still think this way. I can easily afford a new bike, but I have a lot of fun racing against the guys that run in Thunderbike and LW which also run in the LW classes. They always seem to have big grids....so that in itself sais something! :cheers:
Quote from: EX_#76 on September 25, 2007, 03:18:50 PM
Your right. What we need is a vintage class. MW vintage could be open to all bike that are a minimum of 4 years old.
What I said in an earlier post. Bring back Sportsman with a min age of 8 yrs.
I agree! Anyone have any problems with starting a new class or bringing a new one back? We could use a Vintage Class...If you want to call it that, however, I think we can be a little more creative.
:cheers:
F2RGK,
I know your point but you have a funny way of saying it. I vote for the F2 in LW GP and LW SB but not eh SS stuff. Your argument is not convincing when you say that you take a stock F2 and beat up on Ducs, Buells and the other LW guys. Others have made the point that those LW guys are stepping up a class to race Thunderbike.
The classes are kinda screwy for the odd ball bikes such as the F2, FZR600 and even the 250 GP bike. Karl (#57) runs a TZ250 in the LW GP that incidentally the F2 is not allowed to run, but then is not able to run LW F40 that the F2 does. Instead he has to run the HW F40. Just one of the quirks of the rules that won't ever be addressed.
Mark
yeah, I see your point...! I haven't been around long enough to know all of the details or all of my options, that's why i am including other's inputs to keep me straight! It's all good!! One thing i've noticed, and tell me if I'm wrong....but some of these classes you are referring too don't exist in the Midwest region! :cheers:
QuoteAllow the F2 into the LW classes - Yes or No?
No. A liquid-cooled I-4 600 is not a LW bike regardless of age. I disagree with the displacement advantage given to the Duc's and Buell's as well, but I'll concede that the competetion is close-enough to leave things as they are in that regard.
I like that the LW class has a wide variety of machinery, but I think it's important that LW maintains its position as a (relatively) low-cost class to run. If it gets to the point where people feel the need to invest $15k + to have a reasonably competetive LW bike, then I think a lot of the advantages of running LW start to go away.
Quote from: Ridgeway on September 28, 2007, 05:27:57 AM
I think it's important that LW maintains its position as a (relatively) low-cost class to run. If it gets to the point where people feel the need to invest $15k + to have a reasonably competetive LW bike, then I think a lot of the advantages of running LW start to go away.
Somebody had better tell this to Ed Key. Does anybody have a guess as to what it would cost to duplicate either his SS or his SB? If you think about the design time and custom fabrication in his bikes and put a $ figure on it I think it would be pretty insane.
There is no avoiding the fact that racing is expensive in any class but a good rider will generally be the biggest advantage. In the long run I know that I would have been better off spending money on racing schools and additional track time instead of building a superbike. That said - my time is very limited and it is easier for me to blow cash on trick parts than to be able to be at the track constantly.
How about this - if we really wanted a low cost racing option there could be some sort of claimer class. No limitation on type of equipment or set-up (beyond safety) - however - after any race the top 5 finishing bikes would be available to be "claimed" for some set price (say $2,000) by any other competitor that finished the race. This would really create an interesting mix of equipment while discouraging anybody from spending their way to the front of the pack. I bet you would see some strange and interesting conbinaitons of bikes in the field.
Just my $0.02.
George
Quote from: George_Linhart on September 28, 2007, 10:24:06 AM
Somebody had better tell this to Ed Key. Does anybody have a guess as to what it would cost to duplicate either his SS or his SB? If you think about the design time and custom fabrication in his bikes and put a $ figure on it I think it would be pretty insane.
There is no avoiding the fact that racing is expensive in any class but a good rider will generally be the biggest advantage. In the long run I know that I would have been better off spending money on racing schools and additional track time instead of building a superbike. That said - my time is very limited and it is easier for me to blow cash on trick parts than to be able to be at the track constantly.
How about this - if we really wanted a low cost racing option there could be some sort of claimer class. No limitation on type of equipment or set-up (beyond safety) - however - after any race the top 5 finishing bikes would be available to be "claimed" for some set price (say $2,000) by any other competitor that finished the race. This would really create an interesting mix of equipment while discouraging anybody from spending their way to the front of the pack. I bet you would see some strange and interesting conbinaitons of bikes in the field.
Just my $0.02.
George
I guess my definition of competetive is to reasonably expect to be mid-pack or better provided the riding skill is there. Ed works within the existing rules. If you allowed F2's, how much higher does the potential-performance ceiling go, say if Ed were to work his magic on one of those?
As far as keeping costs down, I'd love to see a spec-class someting like the SV-Cup that they had in Canada for awhile. Maybe a Ninja250 cup based on the new version that just came out. Only allowable mods could be suspension and brakes. Could start with a brand new bike and be race ready for around $5k?
Problem is, to make the class worth running, one 8 lap sprint per weekend isn't going to cut it.
Honestly, the number of classes really needs to be reduced in favor of longer races. I think CCS is too accomodating in trying to allow just about any bike to be competetive in a class. Reducing the classes, and making the races longer, (with the associated rise in entry fee), should make for bigger grids, better competetion, and better spectator understanding of how the whole thing works. Having 20+ classes running over the course of a weekend is nuts.
Quote from: Ridgeway on September 28, 2007, 04:49:16 PM
Honestly, the number of classes really needs to be reduced in favor of longer races. I think CCS is too accomodating in trying to allow just about any bike to be competetive in a class.
Very true - but who's classes do you cut? That is where it gets tricky.
Back to the point of the original post. If you add F2's to the LW grids it won't change the result of the mid-pack rider. Back of the pack rider - yes - mid pack, not so much. If you look at the Thunderbike results in the Mid West you see a few of the SS SV's right in there without any problems. I haven't followed the AM class to closely - but - I believe that Ron's success this year is the result of his sandbagging and keeping the yellow plates while all of his competition from last year moved on up to expert (the obvious names that come to mind are Bartz, Utek, Soleo, me...).
I look forward to seeing Ron with white plates next year so we can race again! If it is just in Thunderbike, so be it, but I've got no issues gridding up with him in LWGP, GT Lights or LW SB.
George
QuoteVery true - but who's classes do you cut? That is where it gets tricky
Merging SB and GP rules would be a good start. It's most of the same people in both anyway. I normally run 4-5 classes per weekend, and the grids are made up of the same people in just about all of them, with the exception of LWSS, where many can't run. Now that the GT's don't pay, maybe eliminate those. Positions are pretty well decided by the 3/4 mark in the GT's anyway. Run SS once, and the newly merged SB/GP class twice in a weekend? 12-15 lap races? Maybe get creative and invert the top 10 for the 2nd race? Consolidate contingency payouts and put on a better show? If CCS put more emphasis on Racing and less on Club, it would make the sport more attractive to sponsors and would be easier to promote.
I think 3 competitive races per weight class per event is a good number, provided the races are long enough to make the trip worth it. 1 SS and 2 SB per weight class would keep the rules simple and the playing field relatively level. Throw in a combined 125/250GP race and a Sportsman/F40 class for a little extra flavor.
Regarding the F2 question, I don't know that modifying the LW rules to add 1 or 2 bikes to a grid are worth opening the door to making LW yet another I-4 600 dominated class in the future. If LW becomes the place for 10 year old MW's to go race, it's not really LW anymore is it? It really becomes Sportsman at that point.
As a new F2 rider for the ''08'' season, I would love to see the F2 LWSB legal.. I raced a 750 Ducati in other years on and off and had fun and did pretty well. I went with the F2 for the price and reliability, and thats it.. Just my opinion. Thanks, Lon
how about a steel frame class? of course that makes the sv illegal and we can't have that!
Quote from: F2RGK on September 26, 2007, 07:26:30 PM
yeah, I see your point...! I haven't been around long enough to know all of the details or all of my options, that's why i am including other's inputs to keep me straight! It's all good!! One thing i've noticed, and tell me if I'm wrong....but some of these classes you are referring too don't exist in the Midwest region! :cheers:
According to the schedule there are the same classes, just the size of the field may be different. All the LW grids are pretty full in the Florida Region. Even the F40 classes see a bunch of bikes on track at the same time, although we have both HW and LW with EX/AM split. It is a lot of fun.
Thunderbike I find it difficult to keep up with the young guys and their 100 HP bikes. Every bike I am against in that class runs away from me on the top end, then there is G. Rick who is ultra-fast on his Ducati, and Chris Boy another local fast guy, then Fuentes has found newfound speed on his Duc 748.
Ben I will put any one of my 435lb 95hp f2's up on yours. I dont see you running all over Cantu.
Stop whining and race!!!
Quote from: F2RGK on September 26, 2007, 09:00:06 AM
I agree! Anyone have any problems with starting a new class or bringing a new one back?
Yes, there are too many races as it is.
Get rid of Am UL SB and make them all experts. If you can ride a big bike fast you should be Expert anyway.
Mark
:biggrin: :biggrin: :cheers:
:pop:
Oh my how my ears are ringing George! I wouldn't expect those words from you about me! Let me tell you this...get used to seeing the back of my bike next year and I'll even let you use your F2 that you sold and I resent the word SandBagging, I believe you called it. Just for your info and everyone elses, I asked to go expert and CCS turned me down...just ask Eric! Foremost, I believe I did an excellent job racing this year. Nobody likes a bragger so I won't even go there! I had a blast once again with my fellow amateur racers as always....inlcuding the experts! I race with my heart and did my best. There was no sandbagging involved. I didn't just race Thunderbike. Hell, I placed 10th overall in Am GTU against 2005-2007 bikes on a 20 something year old bike! So, I don't want to hear that I'm sandbagging. I worked hard to get those wins and I thank everyone who helped me get them. I hope you can do better than a 17 at blackhawk (since you don't race at any other tracks), because you're going to need that too get around me! Goodluck-what nerve!
It seems we are just going around in circles with this. It always seems to get back to what classes should be run and how.
It would be nice to have a place for the Novice/Amateur racer to start out such as my son has (Ultralight Superbike comes to mind). Then have a tiered system of progression right on up to expert.
I don't get the need to stay amateur to be competitive. I do support the thought of staying amateur based on rider skill displayed by smoothness, control, and predictability. A racer can possess these without being the fastest guy out there.
I also don't understand the loads of Amateurs starting on say a GSXR1000. If you can ride one you are an expert. If you can't ride it get off the dang bike.
It is nice to go to a "club" and be able to participate in some of the events and sometimes on a budget. If I were looking to become a famous racer I would be going ASRA and then AMA. I am not chasing that dream, this is all about family for me and I enjoy dicing it up out there on the track with the likes of you folks. Now lets go racing.
Mark
Quote from: F2RGK on October 01, 2007, 01:44:46 AM
Oh my how my ears are ringing George!
Ron,
I was trying to be a bit funny and light hearted there - I guess that it doesn't come across well over the internet (not the first time). I'll be the first to say that you stepped up big time this year, you were riding much better and looked great every time I saw you out on the track. I even knew that you had asked to go expert and that Eric/Kevin declined - so its all good!
I do, however, think that some of the Yellow plate MW LW riders look at your F2 and think that it is the sole reason you dominated the MW Thunderbike class this year. With the way you have been riding you would have even done well on a Honda Hawk running on 1 cylnder...
I also will be the first to say that I sucked balls this year. Between the variety of mechanical issues, a lack of track time and an inability to ride comfortably I was giving up about 2 seconds a lap compared to what I should be doing at BHF. Lets not even talk about Road America - I think I was 7+ seconds off my pace...
Peace my Thunderbike Brother!
George
Quote from: roadracer22 on October 01, 2007, 07:54:53 AM
It seems we are just going around in circles with this. It always seems to get back to what classes should be run and how.
It would be nice to have a place for the Novice/Amateur racer to start out such as my son has (Ultralight Superbike comes to mind). Then have a tiered system of progression right on up to expert.
I don't get the need to stay amateur to be competitive. I do support the thought of staying amateur based on rider skill displayed by smoothness, control, and predictability. A racer can possess these without being the fastest guy out there.
I also don't understand the loads of Amateurs starting on say a GSXR1000. If you can ride one you are an expert. If you can't ride it get off the dang bike.
It is nice to go to a "club" and be able to participate in some of the events and sometimes on a budget. If I were looking to become a famous racer I would be going ASRA and then AMA. I am not chasing that dream, this is all about family for me and I enjoy dicing it up out there on the track with the likes of you folks. Now lets go racing.
Mark
Maybe the real solution is to allow the F2 into GT lights and LWSB. It seems kinda silly that they are not in there already. I am somewhat concerned about what someone like Ed or myself could do with an F2. I will bet that I can get one of those bikes down to 325#, and I would not be surprised if we could coax 105+ hp. Now that could be a real stout bike. So perhaps some special rules could apply to the F2s to prevent that sort of thing from happening. Like the F2s must run stock wheels, rotors, cams, carbs, air box and air filter must remain as produced. If you put a 325# 105hp bike under Ed Key, we will all have more problems before. It is foolish to think that just because the F2 is old that no one will build one up. If you create a place for that bike, and some racer sees a competitive advantage, you can bet someone will build it. I know I would. You guys that have built up F2s chime in and let me know if I am too far off base on the modification limitations. If you use a good running SV as a bench mark, you can get one down to 325 and make about 90hp to 92hp fairly reliably without going to the poor house. So I am thinking that if you can keep the F2 in that sort of power and weight range you might have a fighting chance of getting the rules changed.
This thread also talks about keeping cost down, limiting mods will do just that
What does everyone think?
Apology accepted! Ya gotta love the internet, can't tell the other persons expression! :cheers:
Back to business people: Let's figure out 1 class that everyone can agree upon and let me know. The whole purpose of this post was to be able to run in another class with an F2 to be more competetive to enjoy the weekend more, instead of just running one class and going home, Thunderbike. Don't compare apples to oranges. It's simple...max hp from an F2 reliably is 100hp, with a lotta money spent, (keyword built); steel frame Vs. Aluminum; 435lbs. in weight; an 20 years old to say the least, so I don't see the big deal. It comes down to rider ultimately! Anyway, pick a class and I'll tally the vote and suggest it for the changes! That is all......Peace!
P.S. I race too because of the huge family we have here at CCS. You can't beat the comraderie! It's all about the fun...otherwise I'd have to leave. Big RoNny
Guy,
That is all fine and dandy but we do have a rule for the HP to weight issue already in place. 105hp would be way over the mark to be legal in that respect (not too mention high dollars to get that). I am not even referring to building the bike excessively. I have made the comments earlier that the F2 is an inexpensive bike to purchase at first, setup is relatively cheap, if you crash it, no worries because it's crash worthy, and in stock form it's competetive at roughly 85-90hp in stock form, and it attracts more people to race at the beginner level so the street squid won't feel intimidated. I want to try and grow the sport, get people off the street and onto the track. By adding one more class would help that other than Thunderbike, even if we have to make one up.
Quote from: Super Dave on September 30, 2007, 10:03:28 AM
Yes, there are too many races as it is.
Dave, I see your point! Any ideas?
Guy, I agree with you in having the F2 run the LW SB stuff. I don't believe that an F2 can achieve the weight of 325# but I am coming fromthe perspective of racing an FZR600 which is a comparable machine. To achieve that would mean some high dollar stuff and that would defeat one of the purposes of inclusion.
Ron, I think that you have the best approach as far as agreeing on one of the Lightweight SB classes and submitting inclusion for that class.
My take after racing a modified FZR600 for the past couple years? My bike produces 106 rwhp (U4, pump gas=104)) on an older dyno and a reported 98 rwhp (U4)on Prieto's dyno. It is reportedly a little less power than the SuperbikeSV that Barnes rode at Daytona. Modifications include a Falicon crank, Wiseco 630 kit, mild porting and cam work. All this breathing through a set of Flatslide carbs. So there you have it, it's what I have and what it produces. I am told that stock spec FZR and F2 make close to that but I gotta wonder. I am sure someone with more talent can get more out of it but I would question at what reliability.
The FZR is lot heavier than the SV and even heavier than my GSXR1000. To lose weight would mean Marchessinni wheels and cutting the steel subframe off but how much could you actually save. The frame by itself is very heavy (steel frame) with no amount of weight savings attainable. The stock suspension is no match for the updated stuff of a new bike. I have upgraded the front end to an R1 front and what a difference.
The FZR600 with the modified motor is competitive with a Duc DS1000 but is somewhat underpowered to the same bike in SB form. It is also competitive and closely matches a Superbike SV as far as outright HP goes. I have done some of my own seat of the pants comparisons where I have pulled up next to these bikes at Daytona and they are pretty good matches.
I say let the F2 run GT lights or Lightweight SB, LW GP, or just one of those. I would love to run in the GT lights race just for the shear fun of running a longer race other than sprints.
um......
wabbit season?!?!?
Quote from: EX_#76 on October 01, 2007, 10:10:52 AM
This thread also talks about keeping cost down, limiting mods will do just that
What does everyone think?
My F2 weighed in at 410# going across the AMA scales in 1993. Stock wheels, rotors, etc.
As for limiting mods...
How confusing do we want to make it?
Ed can do a 1:13 at Blackhawk with what he has. I don't see why a Supersport F2 can't do a 1:12 now, ridden well.
Quote from: F2RGK on October 01, 2007, 10:33:11 AM
Dave, I see your point! Any ideas?
Oh, boy...
Three tier system.
True amateurs, sportsman, and expert.
Sportsman can have a butt load of classes. Much like what CCS has now. Maybe a couple more, what ever. Contingency offered, no purse, points for overall championships, etc.
Amateur. A class for actual new racers. Give them 18 months or something of opportunities to hone some skills before putting them in Sportsman. You'll have classes based only on basic displacement, not on mods. No trophies, no contingency. It could end up developing racers from a racing stand point rather than having them feel as though they need to do track days for two to three years before racing. Maybe three classes. Lightweight, Middleweight, Open
Expert. Higher fees, a little longer races, no trophies. Some kind of purse system. Reduction in classes.
Some experts and a lot of amateurs would fit into the sportsman class. More offering of opportunities for the fun part of it and unique classes. Expert would be more for the current production stuff. Yeah, there would be classes for various bikes and their performance basis, but you wouldn't have F40 or ULSB. Making sense?
I've given it thought, but not a ton.
Quote from: F2RGK on October 01, 2007, 10:26:50 AM
Guy,
That is all fine and dandy but we do have a rule for the HP to weight issue already in place. 105hp would be way over the mark to be legal in that respect (not too mention high dollars to get that). I am not even referring to building the bike excessively. I have made the comments earlier that the F2 is an inexpensive bike to purchase at first, setup is relatively cheap, if you crash it, no worries because it's crash worthy, and in stock form it's competetive at roughly 85-90hp in stock form, and it attracts more people to race at the beginner level so the street squid won't feel intimidated. I want to try and grow the sport, get people off the street and onto the track. By adding one more class would help that other than Thunderbike, even if we have to make one up.
I know what you guys are after, but if you change rules you have to account for the extreme that someone will take it to. If you do not think of these things, you most likely will not get a rules or class change. I was not trying to implement a HP to weight class. I was trying to use an SV SB HP to weight to establish some sort of performance bench mark, and some guide lines on how far the F2 can or can't be modified. I know of one person who has a claimend 115HP F2. So my statements were to try and prevent this sort of thing from occurring. I keep seeing references to stock HP and weight numbers. Does this mean the the F2 crowd would be willing to conform to SS rules in all the new classes that they are allowed into? Kinda sounds like they might be at a performance deficit against the front running SB SVs, Buels, and Ducs. My point is if the F2s are allowed to enter the LWSB classes that the bike could be modified enough to be a real advantage, thus disturbing some of the equality that everyone wants. Please do not take this the wrong way but, the statement that you are trying to keep this inexpensive seems to be invalid. You can buy a race prepped first gen SV for under $3000.00 (there is one on the forum right now for $1800.00) as apposed to a $2500.00 F2 that is not much of a difference, so that approach will not help your cause much. They also very crash friendly, and fit the current rules structure. I understand that some people just want to race something different than an SV, Buel or Duc. So to get a change you have to come up with a set of reasonable ground rules and present it to CCS. That is what I was trying to open a dialog on. Believe me I would really like to see the F2s in more classes. So I am trying to help your cause. To do that I am playing a little bit of the devils advocate. I am not attempting to cause arguments, just good discussion.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 01, 2007, 02:02:03 PM
My F2 weighed in at 410# going across the AMA scales in 1993. Stock wheels, rotors, etc.
As for limiting mods...
How confusing do we want to make it?
Ed can do a 1:13 at Blackhawk with what he has. I don't see why a Supersport F2 can't do a 1:12 now, ridden well.
Agreed Dave!! My comments are to allow the F2 into all LW classes except SS and limit the allowable mods so someone can not create an overly dominant F2. I guarantee you that if got my hands on an F2 I could take 50 to 75# off of it and add allot of hp under the current rules structure for LWSB. Loose the charging system and buy magnesium wheels and I have removed 30 to 40#. Cams porting and carbs has to add at least 15hp. So lets work on some reasonable F2 limitations and go from there
Guy
But doing that puts you in Middleweight terrritory, which it's already in...
Quote from: Super Dave on October 01, 2007, 02:10:41 PM
Oh, boy...
Three tier system.
True amateurs, sportsman, and expert.
Sportsman can have a butt load of classes. Much like what CCS has now. Maybe a couple more, what ever. Contingency offered, no purse, points for overall championships, etc.
Amateur. A class for actual new racers. Give them 18 months or something of opportunities to hone some skills before putting them in Sportsman. You'll have classes based only on basic displacement, not on mods. No trophies, no contingency. It could end up developing racers from a racing stand point rather than having them feel as though they need to do track days for two to three years before racing. Maybe three classes. Lightweight, Middleweight, Open
Expert. Higher fees, a little longer races, no trophies. Some kind of purse system. Reduction in classes.
Some experts and a lot of amateurs would fit into the sportsman class. More offering of opportunities for the fun part of it and unique classes. Expert would be more for the current production stuff. Yeah, there would be classes for various bikes and their performance basis, but you wouldn't have F40 or ULSB. Making sense?
I've given it thought, but not a ton.
TRuthfully, this is about how I see it:
- amateur = CCS amateur
- sportsman = CCS expert
- expert = ASRA
I think, as a practical matter, its pretty close to what you describe as optimal.
so if you run asra does that exempt you from cherry picking sportsmen and while we are at it can we squeeze my 748 into GTLights you all know they're junk and I promise I won't make over 100hp
LOL!
Yeah, +1.
How about I run my SV1000 in GTL. It's heavy and slow too.
Quote from: Super Dave on October 01, 2007, 08:44:27 PM
LOL!
Yeah, +1.
How about I run my SV1000 in GTL. It's heavy and slow too.
Slow is OK but no heavy bikes in GTL.
BTW Dave thanks for the heads up on the bone pills my therapist and doc. are impressed with my progress 6mos. after surgery. i tell everybody about them.and we have had this disscusion about 3 classes before but no one's listening. you comming to Daytona ? that's my home track. i'll be there racing or not . and light is a relative term. Marc
Hey, no problem! Glad they worked for you.
No Daytona for me. I'm going to the Suzuki Cup Final, with the heavy,slow bike, and then I have a school on the 22nd. So, the school kind of cuts my opportunity for Daytona, but I get to work with Hawk. :thumb:
Quote from: Super Dave on October 01, 2007, 09:17:10 PM
Hey, no problem! Glad they worked for you.
No Daytona for me. I'm going to the Suzuki Cup Final, with the heavy,slow bike, and then I have a school on the 22nd. So, the school kind of cuts my opportunity for Daytona, but I get to work with Hawk. :thumb:
Or what's left of him anyway.
Screw it. Lets just go to a 2 race system.
Sat. 8-11am practice. 12-4 1 race, every bike. :biggrin:
Sunday, the same.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on October 02, 2007, 02:47:41 AM
Screw it. Lets just go to a 2 race system.
Sat. 8-11am practice. 12-4 1 race, every bike. :biggrin:
Sunday, the same.
I wonder how much the race entry fee will rise when every track has to buy a fleet of helicopters...... :ahhh:
Quote from: EX_#76 on October 01, 2007, 03:37:51 PM
I know what you guys are after, but if you change rules you have to account for the extreme that someone will take it to. If you do not think of these things, you most likely will not get a rules or class change. I was not trying to implement a HP to weight class. I was trying to use an SV SB HP to weight to establish some sort of performance bench mark, and some guide lines on how far the F2 can or can't be modified. I know of one person who has a claimend 115HP F2. So my statements were to try and prevent this sort of thing from occurring. I keep seeing references to stock HP and weight numbers. Does this mean the the F2 crowd would be willing to conform to SS rules in all the new classes that they are allowed into? Kinda sounds like they might be at a performance deficit against the front running SB SVs, Buels, and Ducs. My point is if the F2s are allowed to enter the LWSB classes that the bike could be modified enough to be a real advantage, thus disturbing some of the equality that everyone wants. Please do not take this the wrong way but, the statement that you are trying to keep this inexpensive seems to be invalid. You can buy a race prepped first gen SV for under $3000.00 (there is one on the forum right now for $1800.00) as apposed to a $2500.00 F2 that is not much of a difference, so that approach will not help your cause much. They also very crash friendly, and fit the current rules structure. I understand that some people just want to race something different than an SV, Buel or Duc. So to get a change you have to come up with a set of reasonable ground rules and present it to CCS. That is what I was trying to open a dialog on. Believe me I would really like to see the F2s in more classes. So I am trying to help your cause. To do that I am playing a little bit of the devils advocate. I am not attempting to cause arguments, just good discussion.
Guy,
No argument taken at all. This is why I am asking the questions. So far, I take it that everyone agrees to let it in LWSB, which is fine. That is all I am looking for. I agree with alot of things everyone has said. However, I do disagree on some things. That is my opinion and option just like everyone else's. SuperDave, you rock...good points made and taken. This thread is going a long way so I guess I sparked some interest since it's a plausible cause. In my definition to keep costs down, I love my F2, it fit's me. I can tell you this, I would never put Marchesini wheels on it or lighten the flywheel, remove the charging system etc. to lose weight to make this bike some superbike. I know what I've spent on my bike, I am like an Ed Key in that respect; however, I knew when to quit....it's still a turd and it's 20 years old!!!
I've heard of "bumping up" a class, but trying to "bump down"? Its a stretch at best. Racing is not about affordabilty or fairness. (note the devil's advocate), but its just ridiculous to try to change the rules to race down a class.
If I had an F2 in good condition, I'd restore it and put it in my basement. I would look good next to my 1977 XL100 and my '88 Hawk.
The point is: move on! Racing is a dynamic sport. If you want to be competetive, buy the new hotness. If you want to ride an antique, don't piss and moan about fairness, if you just want to complain... your in the right place!
Quote from: 123user on October 02, 2007, 03:10:29 PM
if you just want to complain... your in the right place!
amen.....
I've been watching this thread for a while and I have to agree with 123user, I bought a Hawk and took it racing to see if I wanted to do this. Well, I did, so I bought an SV to be competitive in LW. The Hawk is no longer a competitive bike but it was fun and I moved on to a more modern bike. Guy's points are very valid. I understand that you have no intention of making the mods that he listed but the rule has to cover all possibilties so regardless of what you might want to do it is important to recognize what someone COULD do when creating the rule. Keep in mind Kevin's viewpoint and address the issues that Guy mentioned when you think about this proposal, furthermore keep in mind that you can get onto an SV very inexpensively and be competitive within the existing rule structure.
Paul,
Yeah, we both cut our teeth on a hawk, now I've got a fast bike... and drag my A** But your use of the word "modern" is suspect. We both know that a hawk is more "modern" than either a buell or aircooled duc in every aspect except suspension.
The Erion Brothers NT650 effort (quite imfamously) bent every rule they could, and took the AMA twins class by suprise... but the bike did fit within the existing class structure. The "hawkolution" of the lightweight classes in the earlier 90's was different however than the question at hand. The F2 doesn't meet the spirit of the rules. Changing the rules to accomodate one machine is silly. There only two logical reasons to run a F2 in LW:
1. You already own one, and can't afford a new ride
2. You DO intend to take advantage of its superiority
I can't help with #1, #2 is pretty obvious. Having an emotional attachment to a bike and wanting to be competetive are two totally opposite feelings. As scarce as nice F2's (and parts) are becoming, destitute racers would be better to sell their F2 and buy a more "disposable" machine.
Ok, here I sit and read the last 3 pages of posts only to bang my head against a wall! :banghead: First, who said anything about trying to change all of the rules to let an F2 in LWSB other than letting it in? Heck, delete a class and make a new one! Heaven knows we allready have too many middleweight classes. Secondly, for the guy who is giving multiple reasons to move on or be Dynamic....I've owned a fricken motorcycle store for the last 10 years, so the affordability question is out! Thirdly, some of you who post comments on here better read the last few pages as well because some of you are commenting on something that has already been discussed. Again, my whole point is too let it in LWSB because it can be, and it gives another class to run other than Thunderbike with an F2. Screw the scarce parts dilemma, the heavy bike dilemma, old bike dilemma, love of a bike dilemma, moving on dilemma, or whatever else you can come up with. At this point, I'm ready to pick an SV off my floor and build it for next year to really make you scream, then what? This post generated over 1600 views, so obviously there needs to be a change somewhere! :ahhh:
An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike. Period.
Using that logic, the Roberts clan should be able to run their GP bike in WSBK. As far as the actual rule modification goes, do you really expect the rules for LWSB to be modified with a "P.S. Honda F2's are allowed"?
Quote from: Ridgeway on October 03, 2007, 09:49:24 PM
An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike. Period.
Using that logic, the Roberts clan should be able to run their GP bike in WSBK. As far as the actual rule modification goes, do you really expect the rules for LWSB to be modified with a "P.S. Honda F2's are allowed"?
Ok, who said anything about Moto GP? So I bet you consider a Buell a LW bike as well, even at 130hp because it is a twin cylinder? Everyone is forgetting one thing.... SV's and Buell's can run in Thunderbike but an F2 cannot enter into in ANY LW classes and I stress the word ANY! You can throw the rule book at me all you want, but the fact is there is an unfairness here somewhere. P.J. is an awesome guy and rider with his Buell making better times than any F2 rider I know of. Ed Key is doing the same on an SV. They both get to ride in both classes LW and Tbike. I would think this over rules any controversy over the HP limit of the F2.
Hey Ron, good discussion.
Thanks for the kind words. But I just want to set the record straight; there are no LW legal 130 HP Buells.
The fact is that my Buell is built to LW Superbike rules (stock displacement). It's a reliable, competitive package. And I bump up into Thunderbike and SuperTwins to chase Buell money.
Perhaps the rules could be written to allow the F2 into more LW races without upsetting the balance of a very competitive and diverse class, but I worry that sets the stage for LW to become the dumping ground for every non-current 600 in the future.
The reason that Thunderbike allows F2s is because the class rules were first designed as a "Heavyweight Sportsman" class. The name was later changed, but the spirit remains.
Quote from: F2RGK on October 02, 2007, 08:47:46 PMAt this point, I'm ready to pick an SV off my floor and build it for next year to really make you scream, then what? This post generated over 1600 views, so obviously there needs to be a change somewhere! :ahhh:
At this point, in the Midwest, Ed Key already has that. Built motors, lightened everything, even a custom GP chassis. Add a very technically oriented rider...
I don't know if anyone could say that 1600 views means that change is needed. One could say that some are looking for some opportunities...
Quote1. You already own one, and can't afford a new ride
2. You DO intend to take advantage of its superiority
I don't own one anymore, but I raced one for two years. I won a lot of races, contingency, and championships. I know what it can do for lap times with tires from the early 90's no less. When it became Thunderbike legal, I know that when ever I see one go up for sale, I do take a hard look.
Quote from: PJ on October 05, 2007, 12:32:45 AM
Hey Ron, good discussion.
Thanks for the kind words. But I just want to set the record straight; there are no LW legal 130 HP Buells.
The fact is that my Buell is built to LW Superbike rules (stock displacement). It's a reliable, competitive package. And I bump up into Thunderbike and SuperTwins to chase Buell money.
Perhaps the rules could be written to allow the F2 into more LW races without upsetting the balance of a very competitive and diverse class, but I worry that sets the stage for LW to become the dumping ground for every non-current 600 in the future.
The reason that Thunderbike allows F2s is because the class rules were first designed as a "Heavyweight Sportsman" class. The name was later changed, but the spirit remains.
Hey PJ,
I guess my emotions got caught up in the moment. That's what I really meant to say in regards to your bike (not trying to draw attention to the Black Stallion)! HeHe he. LOL! Super Dave, in reply to the opportunistic side....Maybe! This does make for good conversation though! On this board, it's like big news!!!
Have a good weekend everyone---Going to Florida to Work on my Daytona Tan before ROC!P
Quote from: PJ on October 05, 2007, 12:32:45 AM
Hey Ron, good discussion.
Thanks for the kind words. But I just want to set the record straight; there are no LW legal 130 HP Buells.
The fact is that my Buell is built to LW Superbike rules (stock displacement). It's a reliable, competitive package. And I bump up into Thunderbike and SuperTwins to chase Buell money.
Perhaps the rules could be written to allow the F2 into more LW races without upsetting the balance of a very competitive and diverse class, but I worry that sets the stage for LW to become the dumping ground for every non-current 600 in the future.
The reason that Thunderbike allows F2s is because the class rules were first designed as a "Heavyweight Sportsman" class. The name was later changed, but the spirit remains.
The "factory" supported Buells racing in ASRA have got to be over 120hp. I don't know how the deisplacements are modified, but I did see one of those XBRRs pull a superstock 999R out of a turn.
I haven't seen Bilansky's Buell pull me...and I don't have 120HP.
His is a Thunderbike Buell...it does not conform to Lightweight that I know of.
Quote from: xseal on October 11, 2007, 08:38:24 PM
The "factory" supported Buells racing in ASRA have got to be over 120hp. I don't know how the deisplacements are modified, but I did see one of those XBRRs pull a superstock 999R out of a turn.
There are no "factory" supported Buells in ASRA (unless you count the generous contingency program and trackside parts and technical support from Henry Duga, available to every Buell racer).
Post race dyno results show the top ASRA Thunderbike-spec Buells make less than 120 HP. And none of those bikes would be Lightweight legal due to displacement larger than 1210cc.
The XBRR, which makes more than 130 HP, is not legal for any Lightweight class, nor is it legal for CCS Thunderbike. But it's a weapon in SuperTwins!
Quote from: xseal on October 11, 2007, 08:38:24 PM
The "factory" supported Buells racing in ASRA have got to be over 120hp. I don't know how the deisplacements are modified, but I did see one of those XBRRs pull a superstock 999R out of a turn.
Look in RRW at the post race dyno runs, no thunderbike is 120hp. I have seen all of the front runners on the dyno, and have added the in the 12% for the factory to dynojet measurement difference. Nate's BMW has the most power and that equates to 112 to 117 dynojet HP depending on its state of tune. Some of the top ASRA guys run different maps in the CCS races and will make a few more HP maybe 5 or so. An XBRR has to be detuned for Tbike.
We should start using a secret code word for "horsepower" Only those initiated would know the secret word.
We could also use a special alpha-numeric numbering system. Instead of saying "this bike pulled 120 horsepower", the initiated would say "this bike's Froggly jumped a72i" we could even use an old German enigma machine to decode.
Many of those quoting HP numbers are wrong at best, and making fools of themselve at worst. Anyone who passed high school physics should know that HP is just a calculated number... a calculated number to describe energy in a time interval. Most of the time, its a calculated average, it is rarely an instaneous measurement. Anybody thats ever felt a KX500 get "on the pipe" understands that the "average" torque measurement is not directly related to the motors ability to accelerate. Thats why inertia dyno's have fudge factors.
This is why F2/F3 bike don't belong. The "measured" number may be the same, but the effect is different... After all, we're not using the power to illuminate light bulbs, we're accelerating. @12,000rpm the instantaneous velocity is different.
The ASRA dyno's read about 15% low.
I guess when I say 'factory supported' I mean the guys sponsored by Hals ... which I have to assume is getting parts and the like on some kind of deal from Buell, .... they seem to be short fuzed motors.
I agree there is a difference in the LW and TB legal Buells ... I just don't know how much it is. I can say that I see 100hp bikes get their doors blown off by those Buells down the straights, and they are running times w/in a couple % of the fastest 600s.
it takes torque to win a drag race not hp and that's the buell's advantage I have to wind my 748 like clock to come of the corner and it's 109 hp at the tire. if i had 4mm more stroke it would pull under 8500.
Why do you think they changed 4 cylinder limit in ASRA Thunderbike to 5.0 lbs per hp vs 4.0 lbs per hp for the twins. Because it would be easy to take an outdated no longer in production bike and build a weapon to dominate the class.
Here are some #s to ponder right out of the latest RRW from ASRA TB at Summit from the top 5. 1st-Estok -Buell 396 lbs, 88 hp . 2nd Kern- BMW 438 lbs, 102.3 hp. 3rd- James-Buell 406 lbs 92.6 hp. 4th Bilansky- Buell 410 lbs 96.3 hp. 5th Me- SV 700 Superbike, 363 lbs 74.9 hp . How easy would it be to blow that away with a superbike spec F2 plus the added fact that an inline 4 will accelerate much quicker.
I would like to race my F2 in LW superbike & GT lights.
But then again I like racing it in GTU also. My f2 has nowhere near the power of the bikes in GTU but I think it has made me a better rider? Don't get me wrong I would still love to race it in LWSB & GT LITES
The more track time the better. Thunderbike , GTU and friday practice is not alot of track time. But I don't think the CCS will ever let F2's in the LW classes. :rollseyes:
cbr-racer, you could also race in, Middle wt SB, GP, MW Supersport, and all the heavy weights or unlimited classes. Lots of track time. Many guys race their 600 against the 750s and 1000s and do well depending on the track. You will also see Buells and SVs racing in the MW races sometimes aswell.
It seems what you are asking for is a rule change to make a vintage bike competetive in current classes.
Quote from: ahastings on October 23, 2007, 11:07:58 AM
It seems what you are asking for is a rule change to make a vintage bike competetive in current classes.
+1
Quote from: ahastings on October 23, 2007, 11:07:58 AM
It seems what you are asking for is a rule change to make a vintage bike competetive in current classes.
bingo.
Quote from: benprobst on October 23, 2007, 06:51:25 PM
bingo.
SShhhhhh Ben, the baby is sleeping...you're crying louder than he is! This is where I become the Devils Advocate! Sounds like we have a few chickens in the house all squakin'. What...afraid of more competition in your class? PJ, said it right...Depending on the rule change, this isn't meant to let the class become a dumping ground for older 600's. With that said---Cya- Big RoNny
let the f2's into lite weight superbike,who's gonna dump all kinds of $$$$ in 14yr old tank. not like any of the f2 riders are as fast as the top 3 in lw sb anyway.
Quote from: sauce on October 31, 2007, 06:55:53 AM
let the f2's into lite weight superbike,who's gonna dump all kinds of $$$$ in 14yr old tank. not like any of the f2 riders are as fast as the top 3 in lw sb anyway.
You create a place for them, and someone will. Hell I will.
Quote from: F2RGK on October 26, 2007, 09:30:00 AM
SShhhhhh Ben, the baby is sleeping...you're crying louder than he is! This is where I become the Devils Advocate! Sounds like we have a few chickens in the house all squakin'. What...afraid of more competition in your class? PJ, said it right...Depending on the rule change, this isn't meant to let the class become a dumping ground for older 600's. With that said---Cya- Big RoNny
Calm down, dont take it so personal little guy. No im not afraid of more competition. First off I have moved out of the lw class, and even if I hadnt I still think its wrong to ask for a rule change to allow a bike that cant compete in its designated class into a lower class. Just seems wrong. For god sakes its racing, buy a newer motorcycle or deal with what you've got. I have a 99 R1 in the basement, with a crappy tune job it probably only makes 120 hp, can I be let in with the 600's? Those modern liter bikes are just too fast.
Quote from: benprobst on November 01, 2007, 06:10:52 PM
Calm down, dont take it so personal little guy. No im not afraid of more competition. First off I have moved out of the lw class, and even if I hadnt I still think its wrong to ask for a rule change to allow a bike that cant compete in its designated class into a lower class. Just seems wrong. For god sakes its racing, buy a newer motorcycle or deal with what you've got. I have a 99 R1 in the basement, with a crappy tune job it probably only makes 120 hp, can I be let in with the 600's? Those modern liter bikes are just too fast.
Big Ben: Nothing personal taken nor given. This is just a conversation that I am bringing up to get peoples viewpoints on. By the way, why do you care so much? I hear that you ride only one track anyway--is that true? Also, I went to Daytona this year....I don't care what anyone sais about the Buells....they are faster than my F2---so people who want to compare hp to torque and limitations or worrying about being competetive....WHATEVER!
Come on, give Ben some credit. He raced at 4 or 5 tracks this year. But all but 1 was with the 'superior' organization so that's equal to racing 10 or 12 tracks with CCS! :thumb:
No I do not run one track, I guess you are refering to only running one CCS race this year which was at my home track, and like I said I run lots of tracks, just didnt do any CCS this year. I ran a another series along with some national endurance stuff this year and did very well. I think the thing some people are missing, as you stated "the buells are faster than my F2" is that it doesnt matter if you personally have a slow bike. The fact is if you give a bike like the F2 a spot on a SB grid in a lower class, at LEAST one person will find a way to absolutly dominate. Give a F2 to Guy Bartz and see what he does with the bodywork/tank/frame via sb rules. Then let him and Ed and MC Perf dig into the motor and they WILL show up with a 350lb 115 hp F2. I guess I understand your point in some ways in that you want more places to race your bike, but what I dont understand is the need to be competitive. I mean if you are racing a F2 I would think your primary objective is fun and track time, so why not just enter the thing in the 5 MW races its legal for and go ride and have fun. Why is there a need to push it into a lower class? I guess I dont really know why I care so much. I just see the LW class as a really great way to get into racing cheap and with a little talent and hard work be competetive. And with the dawn of 12, 000 dollar lightweight bikes it worries me that another potentially dominant bike will move in and take the success away from a deserving young rider who may not have the budget to run with a 12 000 dollar BMW or a built and simply out classying inline 4. I guess thats what I care about, and even though I have moved out of the LW class my feelings remain.
Burt, I dont know who you are or who you think you are, but im tired of you following me around commenting on shit that does'nt pertain to you when no one is talking to you or about you. Just mind your own business and if you are who I think you are practice waiting for the 1 board to go sideways before you wave the greenflag before you get someone killed, if thats not you (rich I think) then forget that sentence and pay attention to the rest. Im sorry if you dont like me, but deal with it and enough with your snide passive agressive comments.
Ben,
If you think my ego needs to be fed by 'following you around' you're dead wrong. I think it's universally accepted on this board that I'm an equal opportunity muck raker. I'm here for fun, sharing some information and I'm not afraid of making politically incorrect statements. I say things sometimes that others can't or won't say for fear of retribution at the track or for for other legtimate reasons. But things that sometimes need to be said. I call people out when they say something stupid or humorous. In your case it repeatedly seems to be the former.
Ben, I don't know if anyone has ever told you this but, you have a very high opinion of yourself and your abilities - far beyond your years. Sort of like a 'Nate Kern Lite' without all the financial missteps and the media hype attitude. You remind me of a lot of other people I have known in your age range in a variety of interests. You want to get to the top and you want it NOW! Being driven for success is a wonderful personality trait. As long as it is measured with a certain amount of respect for those who came before you and who have learned a few lessons the hard way that you have yet to experience.
I wish you nothing but success in your racing career and as you gain experiences the wisdom to keep those events in their proper prospective. Race with humility towards others and win with careful compassion that will cushion your fall when it invariably comes. At some point there may be only one way out of a situation and hopefully it won't be over a bridge that you've already burned.
Burt
I've always felt that Lightweight was a place for low-buck beginners to get their feet wet and learn the game. The class was always a hodgepodge of machinery, some of it fairly old. If the idea is to provide an inexpensive, entry level class, why not let the F2 in? I can remember some epic battles with Edger Dorn on his SV, Billy Casper on his F2, and me on my FZR560. It's cool when diverse machines can compete so closely.
Heck, you might as well let in the FZR600 as well as the F2. Yes, someone could build a 115 hp, 350 lb F2. It would be like riding the tip of a whip. Torque is a good thing. Ask any inline four guy who's raced against twins. A highly tuned, don't lose momentum or you're screwed, peaky four is a real handful, especially in a tight dice with a point-and-shoot twin.
A rules change to make a vintage bike competitive? How about a rules change to add some cost-effective diversity to what is presumably an entry level class? The thing is that there are F2s and FZR600s stacked in piles at every bike salvage yard. A bucks-down racer might actually be able to have some fun and maybe even win a few trophys on one. Would that be good for the sport, or are we trying to keep the low income rabble out these days, Buffy?
I can see the point about F2s dominating the Expert ranks when built by talented rider/fabricators like Key and Bartz. Hell, that's what turned Thunderbike into a one-marque parade. It was really a shame watching that class turn into an F2 freight train as every other bike was driven from the class. That is what drove the Thunderbike class into extinction, right? ::)
No one has to LIKE my opinion. But keep in mind that people who already own a copy of the dominant machine in a class are always really good at getting in a huff and crying foul if they smell compitition from outside their marque.
Quote from: Ridgeway on October 03, 2007, 09:49:24 PM
An F2 being comparable in performance to a LW bike does not make it a LW bike. Period.
One word: Buell.
Quote from: benprobst on November 05, 2007, 08:06:01 PM
Im sorry if you dont like me, but deal with it and enough with your snide passive agressive comments.
YEAH MAN!!! ....you better leave me alone too...or I am gonna sic Kyle on you....whoever you are?!?!?!? :err:
Do I owe you $5?
Quote from: backMARKr on November 06, 2007, 02:27:12 PM
YEAH MAN!!! ....you better leave me alone too...or I am gonna sic Kyle on you....whoever you are?!?!?!? :err:
I'm not worried. I have my GAYDAR turned on - I'll hear him coming! (I mean arriving!) :thumb:
Quote from: Burt Munro on November 06, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
I'm not worried. I have my GAYDAR turned on - I'll hear him coming! (I mean arriving!) :thumb:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:....that's it...uncle, tap out...
Quote from: backMARKr on November 06, 2007, 02:27:12 PM
YEAH MAN!!! ....you better leave me alone too...or I am gonna sic Kyle on you....whoever you are?!?!?!? :err:
kyle bites strangers... true story.
Quote from: tstruyk on November 06, 2007, 03:27:14 PM
kyle bites strangers... true story.
Yep...it's why we don't have an attack dog...don't need one! :thumb:
Quote from: Burt Munro on November 06, 2007, 04:25:44 AM
Ben,
If you think my ego needs to be fed by 'following you around' you're dead wrong. I think it's universally accepted on this board that I'm an equal opportunity muck raker. I'm here for fun, sharing some information and I'm not afraid of making politically incorrect statements. I say things sometimes that others can't or won't say for fear of retribution at the track or for for other legtimate reasons. But things that sometimes need to be said. I call people out when they say something stupid or humorous. In your case it repeatedly seems to be the former.
Ben, I don't know if anyone has ever told you this but, you have a very high opinion of yourself and your abilities - far beyond your years. Sort of like a 'Nate Kern Lite' without all the financial missteps and the media hype attitude. You remind me of a lot of other people I have known in your age range in a variety of interests. You want to get to the top and you want it NOW! Being driven for success is a wonderful personality trait. As long as it is measured with a certain amount of respect for those who came before you and who have learned a few lessons the hard way that you have yet to experience.
I wish you nothing but success in your racing career and as you gain experiences the wisdom to keep those events in their proper prospective. Race with humility towards others and win with careful compassion that will cushion your fall when it invariably comes. At some point there may be only one way out of a situation and hopefully it won't be over a bridge that you've already burned.
Burt
Im sorry you feel that way, honest. I think the Nate comparison is going a bit far, but its your opinion and youre entitled to it. A thing im sorry for is that your picture of me has been drawn by how you see me on an internet bulletin board, and I dont think it portrays an accurate picture, a smart ass comment here and an over confident jesting jab there when read online and not heard in person with the wink and smile can come off the wrong way. I hope you get to deal with me more in person in the future, as im sure most who know me personally will agree im not like that. I dont have an inflated image of myself, I think I know very well what my limitations and abilities are in this sport, however I do have confidence in those abilities, something if you plan to spend any time in this sport you will find to be true in most all successful roadracers. Youre right, I do want success badly, but im taking my time getting there, working my ass of at work as well as climbing up the ladder slowly, riding the slow motorcycles, measuring my risks vs. benefits constantly and so far we are on track. I dont plan to be at my peak for another 2-3 years, but im going to do whatever it takes to get there. Assuming you are Rich the flag guy, thanks for your time and effort, Im sure Ill see you on the way. :thumb:
Wow, my ears are ringing again. K3, I think you've said a lot. That adds to what I've been trying to get across. As far as Ed K. and Bartz Manufacturing, Inc. crew...SO WHAT! Let them try. Ed is a great rider and fair player, Bartz is his apprentice. I've raced against Bartz and had fun. I will look forward to next year racing against Mr. Key. Why you ask? It's called competetion, sport, and most of all fun! I know everyone in either class and it's just plain fun for me. Ok, enough said. I looove you'z guyz....Now let's race!!!
Quote from: tstruyk on November 06, 2007, 03:27:14 PM
kyle bites strangers... true story.
I heard Kyle ate TWO mountain lions at ONCE, but was soon gobbled up by jojo bits.
Quote from: F2RGK on November 06, 2007, 09:44:28 PM
Wow, my ears are ringing again. K3, I think you've said a lot. That adds to what I've been trying to get across. As far as Ed K. and Bartz Manufacturing, Inc. crew...SO WHAT! Let them try. Ed is a great rider and fair player, Bartz is his apprentice. I've raced against Bartz and had fun. I will look forward to next year racing against Mr. Key. Why you ask? It's called competetion, sport, and most of all fun! I know everyone in either class and it's just plain fun for me. Ok, enough said. I looove you'z guyz....Now let's race!!!
I agree with Chris in terms of all LW classes except SS. My stand point is only from an SV guys point of view. I like racing against other engine configurations, it taught me a few things about the power delivery of an in line 4 vs a V twin. George Linehart and I have had some great fun (Me on and SV and him on an F2). They both have their strong points and you must learn how to capitalize your package (yes I said package LOL) I just wanted to see some limitations on in line 4 mods to keep a balance for all of the competitors. Chris is right, build the crap out of an in line 4 and it will be more difficult to ride, at least until you get to a long track where it can stretch its legs. Anyhow, who are you, and what is your #? I really do not think that the rules will change, this thread alone proves that there is allot of contentions on how to implement this idea. I personally would like to see it happen with a few restrictions.
Guy
Quote from: EX_#76 on November 07, 2007, 09:13:52 AM
I agree with Chris in terms of all LW classes except SS. My stand point is only from an SV guys point of view. I like racing against other engine configurations, it taught me a few things about the power delivery of an in line 4 vs a V twin. George Linehart and I have had some great fun (Me on and SV and him on an F2). They both have their strong points and you must learn how to capitalize your package (yes I said package LOL) I just wanted to see some limitations on in line 4 mods to keep a balance for all of the competitors. Chris is right, build the crap out of an in line 4 and it will be more difficult to ride, at least until you get to a long track where it can stretch its legs. Anyhow, who are you, and what is your #? I really do not think that the rules will change, this thread alone proves that there is allot of contentions on how to implement this idea. I personally would like to see it happen with a few restrictions.
Guy
In answer to your question, who am I? I am Ron Kopec aka, Big RoNny! Race #498 Amateur--2007 Midwest Region Thunderbike Champ, 2007 National Thunderbike Champ....but hey, nobody likes a bragger--So I'm not braggin'! Just having Fun!
Guy, I agree about Supersport. As Ed Key, the most blatant non-cheater in Supersport history has pointed out many times, SS should be for stock motorcycles. When I had my FZR560, it was not SS legal, so I raced GTL, LWSB and LWGP. I'd have loved to race Thunderbike, but after I'd done a few races in that class, it was politely pointed out to me by a competitor that since my barrels and cylinder head for the 560 package had not come in the frame that I was running, my bike was technically illegal even though it fit the year and cc requirements. Oops! Sadly, I quit running that class. Still, three races per weekend is a good number, and if the F2 was made legal it could race them all PLUS Thunderbike.
Seems to me that the Fizzer 600 is pretty much the same story as the F2. I'd like to see them grandfather both bikes into Lightweight. Understand that I have no intentions of going racing again, so I have so stake in this discussion. My observations are purely from the time I spent as a Lightweight competitor, combined with my desire to see at least one place in motorcycle roadracing where a beginner could buy a $500-$1000 bike and jump in without being guaranteed last place. Then as the guy gets better, he can work to upgrade the machine and be more competitive. This is the path I took, first with an EX500, then an FZR400, which became a 560. I literally improved my machine $100 or less at a time. I'd just like to see an avenue like that available to bucks-down potential racers these days.
Again, this is merely my opinion.
Well, anything on the cheap can be done more expensively. So, any cheap class can be built out of budget.
Aren't track days the least expensive form? There are no rules?
Or are we dealing with issues that it goes back to Guy's response to more purse races that I always want...everyone puts $20 in a hat...
Similarly, a bunch of guys got together in the Northwest and developed a CB160 class. Ultimately, Chris, I understand what you want, but I don't see CCS being able to effectively reduce the opportunity for spending.
Still, this is cool... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_o07_Hg53U)
Entry level racing is racing with what you have. A lot of riders start racing on 600's because they have them already. Sometimes they sell them outright to buy smaller machines, wisely, to reduce their day to day racing costs.
Meanwhile, it seems like track day guys do like the opportunity of 750's and 1000's more so than racers. Back to day to day affordability, etc., and the risk differences with track days.
Wow,
That was cool!
Thanks Dave :thumb:
If you liked that... Go for a ride with me (http://www.teamhansenhonda.com/videos/daytona2004lapvideo_256k.wmv) Not sure if the link works, but...
i would like to see the f2's in lwsb & lwgp. most people wont spend the cash to build them & if they do their sick.chris your right on with your post.oh ron your right no like's a bragger(quit stealing my lines).
I want them to allow me to use my Dakota in Thunderbike. :biggrin:
Just wondering. I've been out of the loop for a while, so help me out. F2s are legal in Thunderbike, right? Most of the bikes that run LWSB, LWGP and LWGT are also legal for Thunderbike, right? So do F2s dominate Thunderbike, or are they just another competitive motorcycle?
If F2s are merely competitive and not dominant in Thunderbike, why couldn't they compete against the same machines from the Thunderbike grid when those machines compete in LWSB, LWGP and LWGT? Aren't F2s pretty much the only Thunderbike-legal machines that aren't also eligible for those other classes?
Like I said before, I have no stake in this other than that I have an opinion.
Again, not trying to be a rabble rouser but merely trying to understand the situation. Does the F2 have a major advantage at Daytona, and that's why riders of other machines fear it? Really, what is the problem from a performance standpoint? Are there F2 Thunderbikes out there that would leave the rest of the Lightweight non_SS bikes for dead on a consistant basis?
Here's another bit of food for thought. The way CCS writes the rules, they always make ambiguious statements toward types of motorcycles. Why not be more specific? If you said that, "An F2 must use the stock, unaltered frame,subframe, swingarm and gas tank," you'd pretty much kill the 350lb F2 threat, wouldn't you? The FZR560 was exempted from Thunderbike because of the barrels and head not being from the same bike as the frame, but preformancewise, it would have been perfect for that class. Why not an, "FZR 600 barrels and head allowed on FZR560 machine," rule? Hell, they do it in car racing all the time and it works great. Limit the port size on a rotary Mazda, allow more displacement on an MGB, limit the brakes on a 280Z to a certain size and all of a sudden these cars are all competitive with one another. Isn't this supposed to be about competition and full grids?
Quote from: sauce on November 08, 2007, 06:51:38 AM
i would like to see the f2's in lwsb & lwgp. most people wont spend the cash to build them & if they do their sick.chris your right on with your post.oh ron your right no like's a bragger(quit stealing my lines).
Be quiet or I'll send your password back to cyberspace!!! :))
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on November 08, 2007, 07:29:41 PM
Here's another bit of food for thought. The way CCS writes the rules, they always make ambiguious statements toward types of motorcycles. Why not be more specific? If you said that, "An F2 must use the stock, unaltered frame,subframe, swingarm and gas tank," you'd pretty much kill the 350lb F2 threat, wouldn't you? The FZR560 was exempted from Thunderbike because of the barrels and head not being from the same bike as the frame, but preformancewise, it would have been perfect for that class. Why not an, "FZR 600 barrels and head allowed on FZR560 machine," rule? Hell, they do it in car racing all the time and it works great. Limit the port size on a rotary Mazda, allow more displacement on an MGB, limit the brakes on a 280Z to a certain size and all of a sudden these cars are all competitive with one another. Isn't this supposed to be about competition and full grids?
Right on brother!!
Don't make a domination, or lack thereof, an issue of the bike. Often, it's the rider.
If Ed decided to race an F2, F2's would be dominant in Midwest Thunderbike.
An F2 in supersport trim should be capable of a 1:12 in supersport trim with a rider riding it like it should be ridden.
I don't see where that would be in the spirit of LWSS.
Has an F2 ever done a 1:12 at Blackhawk? I'm sure a few good riders have raced them.
Good question.
In 1993, the fastest supersport F2's were more than capable of doing 1:14's at Blackhawk Farms. High HP F2's were in the 89 to 94HP range and weighed more than 400 pounds.
In 2003, two seconds dropped of 600 lap times with the new surface compared to 2002, 1:13's being the fastest, the fastest 600 lap time was put down in 2001, actually, at a 1:13.6 and change.
Better tires are available for the F2 now than were available during the time the bike was raced. That with a proper set up would lead to that time. I know of some heavy bikes that can put a 12 down at Blackhawk as it is.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on November 11, 2007, 09:30:31 PM
Has an F2 ever done a 1:12 at Blackhawk? I'm sure a few good riders have raced them.
I did a 45 sec lap there on my F2. :biggrin:
Although my lap timer picked up an errant becon signal.:lmao:
No, that was the same beacon it just got blown across the paddoc by the huricane following you up the front straight.
f2's dont rule the thunder bike class chirs,their top 5 frist sv(ed)then buells(paul james) then buell then f2's.i would like to see some one run a 1:12 on a f2 dave,when the f3's were the hot bike to have most dudes ran 1:14-1:15's,iam not sayn it cant be done but would like to see it done,hell dave you can run my bike and do what ever you need to the susp. oh ron i mean nat champ you know im your hero.
Well, two seconds dropped off the lap times at Blackhawk from the old track to the new track between 2002 and 2003. That's evident in lap times from the lap record, my personal times, and I would venture to say Ed's times. I know that his fastest lap times on an SV are 1:13's.
Regardless, back to the original topic, I just don't see where an F2, or any liquid cooled 600cc motorcycle from reasonably modern production, is a lightweight bike.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 13, 2007, 08:46:39 AM
Regardless, back to the original topic, I just don't see where an F2, or any liquid cooled 600cc motorcycle from reasonably modern production, is a lightweight bike.
In car racing they call it a performance index. It works really well. Classes get shuffled every year or two. The grids are full and everyone is happy. Did I mention that the grids are full?
Now Dave, I just can't resist poking you with a stick. (At least I'm honest....) We'd already ruled out the F2 for Supersport, so that leaves the Lightweight modified classes. Do I recall a certain 2-stroke project in somebody's garage that would conceivably be a 100% legal lightweight cheater bike? I can't concieve an air-cooled 750cc 2 stroke in lightweight.... (poke, poke)
It's actually a 500. And it's legal for ultra lightweight superbike. I'd have to look at the rules, but the H2 is probably legal too.
That still requires me to use a stock frame. I'll be running spoked 18" wheels. I certainly have the opportunity to do something else, but CCS is never the focus for that bike, if it ever gets finished. But I'd enjoy racing it at Blackhawk. I'd want to put it into the 1:16 range if I can get it close to being right.
We could run the 1969 CR750 in lightweight too. That makes power pretty close to a current 600. Lighter than my SV1000 too. Again, OEM frame. But the cost of a build like that is above what Ed's put into his SV.
I don't like the idea of allowing F2/F3 in any lightweight classes, but it seems to make sense when compared with air cooled Buells, BMW's & Ducati's. In Thunderbike and LW F40 the F2 hasn't been dominate. Good luck getting this passed. Send Eric the request with your supporting arguments.
I think that twins should be given more latitude against the fours given current levels of technology and performance. The new Ducati 848 should be racing in middleweight classes. It's about the same power and weight as the 2008 600's are. It's not a homologation racing special, very standard kit. I've petitioned to Eric for this rule change, it makes sense.
We need rules that make sense and fill grids, not rules that make it difficult to race and keep riders away.
Ah, lord...
Give everyone trophies.
My SV1000 makes less HP than a 600 and weighs more. That should be in Middleweight or Thunderbike too.
Continued restructuring and restructuring of rules to accomodate things like 32 bit processor bikes vs analog bikes will just make it worse and make this even more stupid. As it is, track days are still run what you brung, and that's working because of that.
:wah: :wah: :wah: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:
:lmao:
David, no trophies needed only plaques and lap record slips! tOm :thumb:
Hey, number thirty-two, don't forget, the mind is a terrible thin'...
Ya know, I'm not looking for an argument. I think what I said makes perfect sense. I don't even have a stake in it. There's no F2 in my garage, nor any other lightweight bike. But if the same group of bikes have proven to be competitive against one another in Thunderbike, why not let them compete in other classes together? That's been my whole point and it seems that my point has not been addressed.
It's race three, and here's a bushel of apples on the grid. Now it's race five, and some of the apples have turned to oranges? WTF?
I've said what I had to say. These days I don't argue for argument's sake any more.
I can say the same thing. My production based SV1000S is pretty competitive against Thunderbike based machines. It's certainly not able to keep up in a straight line against current production 600s even though it is a heavyweight bike. Why not let let it run in Thunderbike and LWGP and LWSB?
I don't have an F2 anymore. But I know what it was capable of.
Well, well, well! I must say that everyone has had a fair share of their opinions on this subject and I definately have caught people's attention. I think I'm up to around 5200 views now...not bad! Anyway, K3, you are definately making a valid claim and keeping on track, thanks and no pun intended. Super Dave...you're awesome too; I'm learning alot here from you. As Sauce had mentioned, I'd really like to see an F2 do a 12 at blackhawk. I'll give you my bike to do it with as well or Ed Key--Name the day and time! I do have to mention one thing here about a rule that people have forgotten about; I believe Thinderbike has a certain year age of bike rule. In other words, only an F2 up to 1993 I believe can run in Thunderbike. So, with that said Dave, your SV couldn't apply to racing in Thunderbike. What doesn't make any sense is an F2 is allowed to run in Formula 40 which currently are all Sv's and Buell's. Help me out here? Is it me or is it a catch 22? Yes, you can build an F2 just like any other bike, but how many guys are going to spend that kind of money? I would think they will buy a newer one before they spend the money on an F2. Again, it's just my opinion. LWSB anyone?
i just wanta run more races.i dont have the $$$$ to buy a new bike and would like 1 more class to run in,lwsb is more of a level feild than mwss.thats all,i guess i'll just have to go to wera.thanks oh dave my offer still stands.
I haven't read the whole thread but I'm not letting you run an F2 in LW classes either....
And giving me someone's F2 to ride isn't going to help me do a 12 on it.
First, it's not my bike. Second, it's not my set up. Maybe I have to point it out, but Ed has kept his first generation SV650. He's worked on it a lot. It might be minor changes here and there, but there's a lot of focus put into one's set up.
Similarly, unless someone is going to spend the money on tires and time for me to set up their F2 for me to do that kind of a time, it's not going to happen.
And even more similarly, I didn't turn the time on my SV1000 that Trey Batey turned on his SV1000 at Road Atlanta. The time he turned is available in my bike. Making it happen is a matter of setting it up, which takes time, money, and the rider to do it.
Have fun in Thunderbike guys!
mongo im running the v7mw & v7hw classes,dave i'll buy the tires and do what you want to the dam thing. i just want see it done,whats gonna happen? crash it been thier,blown it up done that 3 times last year,hell the tires & susp will be the cheapest thing i can do to it.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 15, 2007, 08:49:37 AM
And giving me someone's F2 to ride isn't going to help me do a 12 on it.
First, it's not my bike. Second, it's not my set up. Maybe I have to point it out, but Ed has kept his first generation SV650. He's worked on it a lot. It might be minor changes here and there, but there's a lot of focus put into one's set up.
Similarly, unless someone is going to spend the money on tires and time for me to set up their F2 for me to do that kind of a time, it's not going to happen.
And even more similarly, I didn't turn the time on my SV1000 that Trey Batey turned on his SV1000 at Road Atlanta. The time he turned is available in my bike. Making it happen is a matter of setting it up, which takes time, money, and the rider to do it.
Have fun in Thunderbike guys!
Dave, just so you know...we aren't calling you out to do this, if it's possible to do, we just want to see it! It wouldn't take much work for our bikes too accomplish that for you or Ed Key. You can't hurt it...it's only nuts and bolts! Mongo, you're too late to comment!
Quote from: Super Dave on November 07, 2007, 05:50:53 PM
If you liked that... Go for a ride with me (http://www.teamhansenhonda.com/videos/daytona2004lapvideo_256k.wmv) Not sure if the link works, but...
WOW Dave you were kicking BUTT :spank: out there!!! That was SOOOOOOOOOO KEWL! :biggrin:
Wonder what My bike makes?
Ok, I need everyones help here since I can't get F2's in lightweight classes (as of Now)! So, I need everyone to keep visiting this post and commenting with their opinions since I am going for a record high of visits! I am almost there....someone call guiness!
Quote from: F2RGK on February 14, 2008, 09:26:28 PM
Ok, I need everyones help here since I can't get F2's in lightweight classes (as of Now)! So, I need everyone to keep visiting this post and commenting with their opinions since I am going for a record high of visits! I am almost there....someone call guiness!
Try entering the bike in a LW race. There is an older racer in WSMC that races a 600 in a class that it is not legal for, somone would need to file a protest to get the bike the DQ'd. I am just wondering if this would work in CCS or would tech tell you not the race the bike in that class ?
Tech will send you back to registration.