why is it you can buy an "aftermarket" air filter for a supersport bike, but not a "racing" aftermarket filter? no one is refused availability. and it is not more expensive. i watched a guy at vir today ride his ass off in lighweight supersport. rack up a 25 second lead. and D Q'd because of a "race" filter. ummmmmm aren't they "racing" bikes in those events? did the filter cause his huge lead? NO!! itr was the guy's first ever SV race. they could have told him to sort it out, but no. they were'nt very nice either. the rider is a nice guy and would never do that intentionally. even the guy in second place backed him up. ::)
Yeah, that air filter thing has been a sticky issue.
Seems as though SV650's are the big problem. The filter's inlet cannot be bigger than the stocker in Supersport. K&N, BMC I know are bigger than stock.
It ain't much, but it is enough that the tech inspector will notice.
I'll agree that the performance difference is not what got him his lead, but his riding.
QuoteI'll agree that the performance difference is not what got him his lead, but his riding.
Then he didn't need to put in the filter, right? Kinda like the aluminum subframe argument "It doesn't really do anything" - then don't spend $$$ on one.
Everyone gets the same rulebook. The rules aren't perfect, but that's not an excuse to break them. We always check the rules at the beginning of the year to see what's changed.
- Roach
it still could have been a warning of some sort. the rule is stupid. it should state "stock filters only" if that is going to be their stance. why can you not have a race filter if after market filters are allowed? it's not like it was an exclusive part.
the line in the sand issue.
Why even require one at all? doesn't cost "anything" that way. ::)
well mister official. why don't you just explain why one after market filter is ok, and one is not? same price, different dimensions. it's not like CCS is making a cost containment rule.hmmmmmm? ;)
It all has to do with the inlet size which ultimately determines how much air is let in. Some aftermarket filters have a different filtering media that may allow for less restriction. Some filters have a larger hole which will let in more air in addition to the different filtering media.
So, I guess you have to think of the current air filter rules as a restrictor.
I think that several years ago one just needed to have an air filter in the stock air box.
Quotewell mister official. why don't you just explain why one after market filter is ok, and one is not? same price, different dimensions. it's not like CCS is making a cost containment rule.hmmmmmm? ;)
I think because in theory the whole point of "SuperSport" racing is that the machines should all be equally matched, and the rider should be the determining factor. You're not supposed to have a mechanical advantage over the other guy.
Of course, everyone tries creative ways to bend the rules... and in the AMA it's not even amusing anymore how much faster the factory "supersport" machines are compared to everyone else.
- Roach
The fact is, I ordered a K&N Filter because I was under the impression aftermarket replacement filters were legal. K&N only offers (1) filter for an SV650 and thats the one I bought. Trust me when I say, if I thought for a second that CCS tech officials were so anal about K&N replacement filters I would have had the stock filter in place. I have no intentions of cheating to win, I don't have to. This was my first weekend on an SV650. I've never had this problem on any of my other bikes and had no reason to think I would this time.
don't worry about roach, JK. i've run into him on another BBS. apparently he knows every f&&%ing thing there is about racing. the fact is, there is NO REASON to out law an aftermarket filter in racing. unless the rule states "only O.E.M. filter can be used. STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!!!!
Quotedon't worry about roach, JK. i've run into him on another BBS. apparently he knows every f&&%ing thing there is about racing. the fact is, there is NO REASON to out law an aftermarket filter in racing. unless the rule states "only O.E.M. filter can be used. STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!!!!
Actually, DOC... I never claim to know "everything about racing", and I never imply that my personal opinions are "facts" as you state above in regard to filters.
So it would appear that you are the one claiming to know everything, including how the rules for CCS should and shouldn't be written, not I.
JK - wasn't implying you needed to "cheat" to win, was just trying to offer a guess as to why the rule is the way it is.
- Roach
The issue is all about the air inlet hole size at the top. If you mic the stock verses the K&N, they are the same. The BMC is different. K&N filters are absolutely legal per Kevin Elliot if they measure out correctly. I went through this issue last year and heard many different opinions within CCS until I talked to Kevin. He even backed me up at tech at the ROC last year.
Wayne
CCS 424
The real issue here is the SV, and the inlet size. CCS has determined that the filter on the SV is part of the air box, and because it states "no modifications to the air box" in the rulebook, this applies to the filter also. All the SV owners last year were hit with this rule interpretation. It was sent out as a bulletin and was available at some of the early race events last year. If you just bought an SV recently you may have not know this, because it has just been common knowledge with the SV riders. If I can find it I will post the bulletin.
I was in second place and I can say that the filter wouldn't have effected the outcome. He had quite a distance on me.
I guess I'd feel a whole lot different if it were only a few feet though. ;D I don't have a problem with the rule but I do feel badly since it was an honest mistake. Who would run an illegal filter KNOWING about the post-race inspection?
Ted Temple
CCS / LRRS #52
dude, i was the one who helped you tech your bike after the race, and it was nice to meet you. my point was, the above rider could have been told of the new rule [it was his first SV race] and told to sort it out by kershaw. the point still remains that unless only O.E.M. filters can be used, what difference does it make. IMHO none!! rules like that should be made, and enforced when someone could not be able to obtain or afford something. i.e. "SUPERBIKE"
Okay let's see if we can make this make sense. In days gone by, you may or may not remember depending on when you started racing, the upgrade was to remove air box and install filter pods or velocity stacks. Now with ram air removal of the pressurized air box negates any advantage you recive from the freer flowing "pods"or "stacks" so for Superbike use you run the stock, modified or aftermarket air box to maintain the pressurized system. Now you have the option of not using a filter at all or there are some superbike air filters that do not have to comply with any rules/regs. If you read the rulebook it says must retain same number and size of air inlet openings as the stock unit makes it pretty clear what CCS is concerned with on the filters for legal aftermarket unit in SS.
Confusing the issue would be Air filter companies designing a Superbike filter and calling it their racing version.
but you see, the rule is "counter intuitive" after market filters are allowed. k&n makes a after market filter with a competitive advantage. "claim has not been proven" it is NOT THE SAME as modifying the airbox, or removal of metal. basically, if you are going to enforce witch after market filter to use, you might as well enforce o.e.m. only in supersport. obviously if multiple riders keep getting caught out, something is not right. all i am asking is how it became a rule in the first place? what on earth could have happened to make that rule. i'm not disputing it is one. just looking for a intelligent reason of why. "because it just is" is not acceptable. i would love to tell my customers "because i said so" i wonder if they would ever call me back? ::)
bottom line.... THE RIDER WON THAT RACE FAIR AND SQUARE" no "filter" won it. they didn't have to treat him like that.
I was not there, so cannot make any call at all why just insight into in general.
Like I said before it is just the line is drawn here it is, don't cross it. The fact K&N makes an exact replica with "better" flow while others go a different route that is not SS legal does not mean that the company that makes legal filters should be excluded.
I have no knowledge whether the K&N has better flow or has any advantage on that particular bike, I know some it makes less some more in back to back dyno runs.
Oh and this was not a new rule I have 01 and 02 rules here and the 01 shows it as a new rule for 01 I don't have 00 to tell what it was changed from.
once again ::) i'm just asking the intellectual basis on WHY the rule was made. i'm not disputing it as a rule. it wasn't my race, i would just like to know the madness behind the method.
Quoteonce again ::) i'm just asking the intellectual basis on WHY the rule was made. i'm not disputing it as a rule. it wasn't my race, i would just like to know the madness behind the method.
They're screwed no matter what they do - if they made the rule "OEM filter required" as you suggested, they'd have people complaining that company X is making an exact replacement for less money. The rule, however, would be much more clear-cut and easier to enforce.
That would be my guess as to why the rule is the way it is - to allow cheaper replacement filters to be used as long as they are the same as the OEM part.
Kevin?
- Roach
Quoteonce again ::) i'm just asking the intellectual basis on WHY the rule was made. i'm not disputing it as a rule. it wasn't my race, i would just like to know the madness behind the method.
Although I don't claim to be any kind of genious, I'm sure it is there to set a limit on what is considered "supersport" vs. what is considered "superbike".
Your question has been answered about five times already...there is no requirement that you like the answer.
Shawn
no shawn it hasn't. it has only been said that it is the rule. thanks for YOUR VALUBLE input as well. boy you know, WERA'S BBS doesn't dodge issues or get pissed when touchy subjects are brought up. this isn't a glee club, it is where issues about racing are brought up. so yet once again, what is the rule for. kevin? or anyone else with cerebral grey matter?
Hey, D.O.C. why don't you tell us what you want us to say? That way we can get you to shut-up with your fricken whining. How's that for some straightforward wera bbs type chat.
The RULE:
Original equipment air box must remain as produced. Air filters must be used but may be Aftermarket units. Aftermarket air filters are restricted to units available via normal commercial channels and designed for that specific model machine. Aftermarket air filter units that replace part of the O.E.M. airbox are required to maintain the original size and number of air inlet openings as the stock unit.
I posted that because it should at least help some readers see what they are up against. If I bought a filter and it looked like it had much more filter area than stock I would assume the "air inlet opening" did not "maintain the original size". It's unfortunate that the person was DQ'd over it, but he has a rule book and should have asked ahead of time.
My position on why the rule exists is to keep the supersprt bikes performing like supersport bikes. They allow the aftermarket filters as a cost savings to the racers but limit the area so that one filter manufacturer doesn't make the bike have an obvious advantage over another. The purpose of supersport racing is to try to make the bikes equal so that the better rider will prevail, not so someone can ask the same stupid question over and over on a Forum.
Mongrel, are you going to Vegas? I saw your bike in the pits at Phoenix, looks nice.
"Aftermarket air filter units that replace part of the O.E.M. airbox are required to maintain the original size and number of air inlet openings as the stock unit."
There you go.
The weekend before, we raced at Blackhawk Farms. One of my guys had problems with the BMC filters last year. So, he got a K&N filter this year. But before racing, we had the tech inspector come and check the K&N. We measured the actual inlet hole in the K&N and the stock Suzuki OEM filter. The K&N filter's hole was bigger than the stock one.
Based on that, the K&N filter he had could not be used under the CCS Supersport rules.
In my experience, it is really hard to say what really is legal. The aftermarket community is not really able to keep up on the racing organizations. The racing organizations don't notify the aftermarket manufacturers.
Here's one....
I sell racing fuel to motorcycle racers, oval track car racers, snowmobile guys etc.
The current CCS fuel rules make street gasoline illegal. Any unleaded racing fuel is illegal. Many leaded racing fuels are illegal. Indeed, they are working on a solution, but you don't see any fuel tech's either.
guys, we are well versed on the rule. the thing is, if after market filters are allowed. and after market filters are purchased with the premise of making more horsepower, why should one be ruled againt simply because they had the technical foresight to make a hole bigger. that's called R&D and competition. that's why some of you use vortex sprockets, and others use sprocket specialist. because vortex makes better sprockets and i use them, one could deduce that it isn't supersprt legal because it has an advantage.
bottom line: ONLY O.E.M. FILTERS SHOULD BE USED BY THE STUPID REASONING OF THAT STUPID RULE!!!
File this under; Weight lifter DQd for not wearing shoes. Seems the rules stated that all competitors must wear shoes. To bad the guy didn't have any legs!
The rule was originally introduced as a cost cutting measure, the OEM filter was $35 and a K&N was $12.95. Plus the K&N could be washed out and reused multiple times, thus increasing it's value even further. Just as the OEM bodywork rule got relaxed after new stock pieces began to retail for double or triple the aftermarket counterparts and then carbon fiber became allowable after it's price came down below OEM bodywork also.
The out-right removal of the air-filter or modification of the air-box is not allowed because the restriction of air flow afforded by these simple rules makes it impractical to even try to modifiy the intake tract, the returns would be minimal at best and not worth the effort needed and the expense required to make the modifications work with restricted airflow.
SuperSport is supposed to be a reasonable facsimile of an off the show room floor motorcycle that is well-tuned, not a bulit-to-the-hilt SuperBike under stock bodywork.
I see what your saying Kevin, however, to keep the rules clear I would like to suggest stating OEM filters only for supersport classes. If $35.00 scares riders when maintaining their machine, I don't want to see the reaction torwards the tire vendors. If modification of the airflow track produces minimal results there was no reason for Paul to strip points and revoke a first place finish. Second place rider even told Paul in the Tech Shed that I won Fair...not due to an air filter. Fact is Kevin, I messed up by not interperting the rule correctly. On the other hand, there's no reason for Paul to pass such harsh judgement. I paid my fee, ran a good race, and won fair not only by my opinion but according to the very people I beat. Paul could have asked me to have it corrected by Kershaw. And I will.
QuoteMongrel, are you going to Vegas? I saw your bike in the pits at Phoenix, looks nice.
No won't be able to make the Vegas date. I have to work for the military that weekend. Really sucks cause I like that track a lot. Next race for me is the May 18th 19th. Good luck up there.
QuoteThe rule was originally introduced as a cost cutting measure, the OEM filter was $35 and a K&N was $12.95. Plus the K&N could be washed out and reused multiple times, thus increasing it's value even further. Just as the OEM bodywork rule got relaxed after new stock pieces began to retail for double or triple the aftermarket counterparts and then carbon fiber became allowable after it's price came down below OEM bodywork also.
The out-right removal of the air-filter or modification of the air-box is not allowed because the restriction of air flow afforded by these simple rules makes it impractical to even try to modifiy the intake tract, the returns would be minimal at best and not worth the effort needed and the expense required to make the modifications work with restricted airflow.
SuperSport is supposed to be a reasonable facsimile of an off the show room floor motorcycle that is well-tuned, not a bulit-to-the-hilt SuperBike under stock bodywork.
this is nothing but political fluff. did anyone TRULY understand this? i suppose, "you're right, it is a STUPID rule" is out of the question. this statement is from the same people who let OVERSIZED cams pass tech inspection. "well... they are hot" larry manor said as he was holding them in his stupid hand. how hot could they have been. what's next? sharkskins is illegal because they make good body work and not everyone will be smart enough or be able to afford it!! whatever. a good rider was robbed of a race win because kevin elliot and co. are to stubborn to admit the rule is flawed. ;)
Please don't feed the troll.
Shawn
shawn, if you are going to run a BBS, you should try to be objective. even if you don't like what is being said. if you want only pleasantries on here, then say so. we'll just call it "race motorcycles" the glee club motorcycle forum.
Oh sure, because I run the joint I have to be objective? :P
There is no answer that will make you happy except that CCS's rules are wrong and they have to be changed because you don't like them. This conversation isn't going anywhere with you jumping in every third post to rehash the same thing over and over.
If people don't understand how you feel about the issue by now, I don't think they ever will. If you don't understand the reason why the rule is there today, I doubt you ever will.
I'm not taking sides...I really don't care one way or the other, as I ride a superbike, and don't have to worry about drivel like this :) I can, however, understand why the rule is there without someone drawing me a picture...which is very hard in a forum like this, although not impossible if you use a .gif or something.
You have had an opportunity to have the manager of CCS hear your complaint, and respond to it multiple times. Maybe he has even been convinced that the rule needs further clarification or should be done away with...but if you are a bit less confrontational and a bit more constructive, you would probably even get further.
As for whether this board is pleasant or not...I hope, overall, that it is. I know the reason I started it was to give CCS racers a forum to meet and discuss issues...including this one. Kevin even comes in here because he cares about what people have to say...this wasn't his idea.
Shawn
a person runs a bbs so he can control it. S seems to be less controling then most.
JK,
These rules were written in 1984/1985, and at that time OEM filters were expensive and very resrtictive. By today's standards a thirty five dollar filter is nothing, but back then (I'm dating myself) you could get a set of race tires for $100.
Brad, the cams in Ted Cobb's bike matched OEM spec's given by Jeff Wilson at Suzuki and the shop manuals that he sent me as back up. Larry and Jim Tribou (the Suzuki Cup Head Tech from 2000, the same year this took place) measured them, gave me the results and I personally checked with Suzuki about the numbers. I still have all the original paperwork regarding that protest along with the manuals sent by Jeff. If you blame anyone, blame me for knowing who to call.
Good Day.
"yeah, they are out of spec, but they ARE hot." said LARRY MANOR chief tech inspector wizard, compliments of CCS. {while he was holding them!!} hey kevin, did you ever find out why the part number 34-E was stamped on those cams, while everything else is stamped 33-E? or why 33-E cam sprockets were stamped on 34-E cams? has larry figured out how to measure bore/stroke numbers yet? my mechanic had to show him last time. oh yeah, my favorite larry manor line. "is this measured in millimeters, or thousanths of an inch?!" ::) BTW when MY 2000 model gsxr 600 motor was rebuilt, it had 33-E cams. hmmmmmmmm
Doc, Since you obviously have something against CCS(viewed all tears/threads today), Maybe you should try Grand national dirt track and see what a good organization you really ride with. do you ride? BTW.
yes i do schleprock, that is not the point. i would still be entitled to an opinion. if i see something i view is out of line i will say it. boy i'm glad no one told martin luther king to just suck it up and deal with it. what would the USA be like today?
schleprock huh, What region do you cry in anyway? Come to texas and will give you something to cry about. :P
BTW DOC, i have to go home now but I'll chase your trail of tears tomorrow.
D.O.C., Brad or what ever, at least you are consistent.
Waaaaaa, Waaaaaa, Waaaaa.
Wack, Wack, Wack, Wack.
Keep on beating that horse. ;D
I think everyone should run aftermarket filters.... especially in Yamaha R6's ;D
Hopefully this makes things a little easier to understand. I happened to be the "wrench" for a buddy this past weekend when he took second in Unlimited Supersport. I had no experience with the top three places going to tech to have the bike inspected so I asked a lot of questions. The tech official was very willing to explain everything that he was checking and why. Here is what he checked (in the airbox portion of the inspection):
1. That the stock airbox was used. Also that no additional posts or anything were added to aid air in "swirling" within the airbox.
2. That the airbox had no additional holes in it.
3. That the "ram air" intake at the airbox had not been modified in any way. He stated that you can do whatever you want before the entrance to the airbox but the size, shape, and location of the opening could not be changed from stock. (same cross sectional area at the inlet as to not allow higher pressurization or larger inlet flow within the box)
4. Filter media could be other than stock as long as the actual inlet area was the same as stock (No change in cross sectional area from stock. Same reason as above)
5. Whatever filter media was installed had to be "intact". No slits or holes could be made in the media to allow larger flow volumes.
6. Intake area could not be modified in any way. No polishing, porting, adding, or removing material from the intake "stacks". This is to prohibit the increase in velocity of intake air charge over a stock intake.
He stated that all of these items were to keep the field somewhat "even". The filter that my friend had in his bike was indeed aftermarket but the inspector had the dimensions of the original filter written down and measured the dimensions of the media area of the aftermarket one to make sure that it was the same.
Sorry if this reply is long winded but I thought this may help to resolve the confusion somewhat.
Ken A.
CCS#750
Nesba#318
lateapexracing@attbi.com
www.lateapexracing.com
"I feel fast but everyone else must feel faster!"