As I look at the AMA and how that organization has [In my very humble opinion] melted down to below club status on a world scale, I have an idea for ASRA. The FX formula is intresting. But as we can see, nobody but the Japanese factories compete. And we all saw the embarrassing XBRR effort. But in theory it could be an American version of MOTOGP. How, well lets see. The class is open to 600cc fours, 675cc triples, unlimited singles, 800cc desmo's [liquid cooled] 1000cc air cooled desmo's, 800cc OHC [liquid cooled] unlimited air cooled pushrod, all twins of course. Unlimited modifications allowed in every area of the machines. Carbon fiber brakes allowed. Carbon wheels and bodywork. Minimum weight requirements as follows. 600's 300lbs, 675's 310lbs, 800cc twins 315lbs, and the big pushrodders 325lbs. Oh, the super duper supermono,s 195lbs! And finally open exhaust. Would it cost too much? Yes! But all the factories [again in my humble opinion] would love to see this. Especially Buell, BMW, Moto Guzzi , Triumph. I believe this class could eclipse AMA superbike because of the variety,[fans can root the bikes they own]and fans can see the coolest bikes with all kinds of wacky ideas of how to go fast. And most importantly, the noise. Can you imagine a full grid of open exhaust twins, singles, and multis? Wow, this could work. Like Pro Thunder, and the old Battle of the Twins series that people loved but the AMA put out to pasture, the ASRA organization can give motorcycle racers, and fans an great way to realize their own ideas of what will work. Regards, Dan
Battle of the Twins is still going with AHRMA
a 20 lap sprint race before the moto st
Quote from: firebolt on July 24, 2007, 11:33:15 PM
As I look at the AMA and how that organization has [In my very humble opinion] melted down to below club status on a world scale...
How do you figure?
How many Australian riders have came here for opportunity? Or ever former World Champions? Or world champions that were here first?
Yeah, they, the AMA, can be morons, but the people that commit to race the series, crews also, are very good. Definitely above club status.
And if you would have seen what AMA pro racing was like years ago, it has came a long way.
Quote from: firebolt on July 24, 2007, 11:33:15 PMWould it cost too much? Yes! But all the factories [again in my humble opinion] would love to see this.
As it is, the manufactures, and the main teams, have an outcome that they like. And they can make special parts for those teams to maintain that status.
Like Becka said, AHRMA has a battle of the twins and even a pro thunder class open to singles, twins, and triples.
The big trick is trying to finance it, and then develop the personalities of riders to support it that will attract paying spectators.
go race moto st it's the best test for the lightweight theory yet .if it survives and i think it might it will give the lightweight guys some credit I just wish they had a premain sprint race .can't expect everything .as much as i bitch about the ama and (i can cuz i'm a member )it carries a lot of weight around the world second only to britsh superbike as a stepping stone( it maybe bigger bsb) but that's what it is comparied to. you see what neil hodgson trying to run in.
MOTO-ST has a good formula right now.
All twin series. HP and weight restricted. Spec fuel. Spec tires. SPEED-TV coverage of every round. Bikes from Buell, BMW, Ducati, Aprilia, MZ, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Hoysung, etc.
The 8-Hours at Daytona finale is coming up this October. Nothing I've done in 12 years of racing has compared to the experience of running under the lights at Daytona. Pretty damn cool.
Roger E. has said that he wants to add some sprint classes in the future. Stay tuned...
www.moto-st.com for more info.
Agreed. This is the closest anyone has came to making something different for motorcycle road racing.
The selection of bikes naturally restricts some of the opportunities for special parts. I'd like to see more manufacturer contingency. We tried racing it, but we couldn't get things done in time, which was really too bad.
Dave/Paul,
I've looked at the MotoSt stuff for a while and while it looks like it would be fun I kind of lost my excitment due to some of the very specific requirements. Are they enforcing the dry break fuel issue? Matching team uniforms. Bike to pit communication? Basically, some of the rules and added costs have discouraged me, and quite probably a few other people from seriously thinking about giving it a limited try for a round or two as it would require spending some money and really being committed to do it if you are going to try at all.
Do you think there is a way to try a single MotoST race without building in a big budget? What do you think the costs would be to be able to run a single MotoST race (lets say you had a SS legal SV650 but none of the other gear).
To be honest, I haven't even been able to get a team and crew together to do a Team Challenge race, much less a longer and more serious endurance effort. However, at least the Team Challenge is a viable option, start layering on any additional costs and complications and the thought of MotoST is just overwhelming.
I know that Rodger is trying to make it look highly professional for the audience. However, it just seems to me to keep out local riders who may be less organized but might fill out the grid and run at certain tracks if they didn't have to pony up the expenses for a one-off ride...
Thoughts?
George
I did a single round at VIR with my '01 SV650. Doing a single round isn't too bad. $50 for team registration, $400 (I think it was) for race entry, $50 per person for event credentials. The dry break is a big cost though. I was hoping to find a setup to borrow. It's hardly safer, I've spilled more fuel with it than without it. It also doesn't flow as fast as what I could do with the stock opening + 5 gallon jug with big hose and a small Gatorade bottle to funnel it. My Solo Challenge pits stops last year beat the hell out the Moto-ST stops. And now I need a new tank which will be a few hundred $$. My dry break install was far from professional too. I used a few of the original bolt holes in the tank and then put a ring of steel putty around the opening to seal. It was the only stuff I could find to provide the necessary adhesion, sealing and fuel resistance. It passed tech though, I dont' think they bothered looking at it.
However the officials were naggers on my 'loose' bodywork. The same bodywork that has been attached just the same for the prior three year with thousands of race miles and has yet to come off or even been remotely close to coming off. No bike out there had as much track time as mine. And then there was the numbers issue...spent several hours outlining them with white. If your bike isn't showroom perfect they look at it as if it's a piece of shit. Mine was a POS that ended up beating all but one GST entry, plus a few in the SST class. :lmao:
You only need one set of tires, they cost a little less than usual I believe. Have to run the spec fuel which is $6/gallon, I'd prefer to use my usual 87 oct $3/gallon pump gas.
I didn't bother with any fancy stuff other than some diecast vinyl stickers for the team name to put on the bike. The good thing is the payback will almost always cover the entry fee.
If you're spilling more fuel and slower with a drybreak you need to work on your technique and your equipment. There is no way it's slower than a funnel.
Quote from: Mongo on July 26, 2007, 03:04:31 PM
If you're spilling more fuel and slower with a drybreak you need to work on your technique and your equipment. There is no way it's slower than a funnel.
The 'funnel' aka Gatorade bottle is the same size as the male valve but without extra stuff in the way, slowing it down. A straight dump works just fine and is plenty safe. Spilled fuel is why the Team Ducati New York bike caught fire. I see plenty of spilled fueled and fires in pro car racing that use dry breaks, so I don't see how it's any safer.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.earthlink.net%2F%7Eoutoftheblue%2Fdb.jpg&hash=74a1d51b88e937537be58f744ca43ac3e337feef)
Dual dry break, excess fuel goes into the vent line.
And I don't care about the size - if the gatorade bottle is faster, you're either doing it wrong or your equipment is set up wrong. The only thing I've seen faster than a drybreak was a home made dump for a SS team - it was made by the guy that builds winches for all the Cirque shows and Spiderman movies so he's not your normal racer in that regard.
Hi George,
Yes, MOTO-ST requires dry break fuel equipment. And I can see how that might be a barrier for a team that just wants to try one round.
Radio equipment is not madatory. You can use pit boards. Crew shirts, well, we're just trying to look professional. It's not required, but it's part of the show and we're all trying to make this thing work. Matching crew T-shirts would accomplish 90% of the same objective.
As far as the costs to run a single round, outside of the 8-Hours at Daytona, it's pretty similar to the costs of a regular CCS race weekend. $400 entry, $50 gate, we get by with one set of Pirelli spec tires ($350), and race fuel ($100 or so). All in, I figure it's about $1,000 per weekend (not including towing fuel, but I assume you're thinking about entering a MOTO-ST race during a weekend that you're already attending, like Road America).
However, if you finish the race, you'll earn your entry fee back. And if you finish in the top 3 of your class, and/or up in the overall order, you'll get a nice bonus. Lead laps, more bonus. Race a Buell or Ducati, add OEM contingency. Top 3 in class also earns Pirelli tires back. You can see the purse breakdown on the MOTO-ST web site.
As far as crew goes, if you're racing during a regular ASRA/CCS weekend, I bet you could find guys willing to help out. We pretty much draft family, friends and fellow racers for our crew.
I strongly encourage you to try a round. It's fun. It's professionally organized and managed. You'll learn a lot and have a great time.
If you want to talk more about it, stop by our pit this weekend, or PM me.
Gentlemen, I agree MOTO ST is an intresting formula. I just have a hard time with NASCAResque rules, and most importantly a rolling start? With a safety car? Endurance racing in Europe does "Le Mans Style" starts. That's adds an element of grace to it all, don't you think? But again, does anyone agree we need an American version of a "no holds barred" type of motorcycle racing. A super FX series based on my wacko set of rules I have sort of outlined in my first post. And for heaven's sake please use open exhausts on those Buells! Calvin Rayborns spirit will smile! Regards, Dan
consdering the amount of track time and that it's profesional looking series the rules are to keep it resonable and you can win your money back i don't see how you could go wrong i also noticed that it seams a little safer with less crashes. i just don't know if i can go the distance . unless i joined the Y now that's an idea. going back to your FX idea without factory support it would be the richest guy wins race and now with a water cooled rotax buell the pushrod bike might be done.
Quote from: George_Linhart on July 26, 2007, 11:11:48 AM
I've looked at the MotoSt stuff for a while and while it looks like it would be fun I kind of lost my excitment due to some of the very specific requirements.
Thoughts?
George
Yeah, there are expenses for a one off opportunity.
But it's being developed as a professional racing opportunity very much unlike CCS's Team Challenge. It pays to thirtieth place, bonuses for lap leaders, and bonuses for top three finishers.
TV? The AMA put up uniform requirements in the early 90's. I don't know if they have always enforced that or if they still have them.
Quote from: firebolt on July 26, 2007, 09:59:15 PMEndurance racing in Europe does "Le Mans Style" starts. That's adds an element of grace to it all, don't you think?
You'd have to see a Le Mans style start. It's pretty scary, and I always wanted to be out of the way of it.
Quote from: firebolt on July 26, 2007, 09:59:15 PMBut again, does anyone agree we need an American version of a "no holds barred" type of motorcycle racing. A super FX series based on my wacko set of rules I have sort of outlined in my first post. And for heaven's sake please use open exhausts on those Buells! Calvin Rayborns spirit will smile! Regards, Dan
Who can afford most racing as it is now?
Your formula starts with an open set of rules, but it doesn't address how anyone is going to afford it through payback or even spectators.
Mongo remembers the Forumla USA series of old with methanol GSXR1100's and YZR500 GP bikes. It was neat, but it didn't last. In the end, it became dyno controlled. When there was a good purse and a end of year bonus, it was very good.
Even MotoGP has a set of rules.
It didn't last because we shut the company down - really had nothing to do with the class rules. Hell, our F1 rules are still the same. Switching it to a limited class is what really killed it. However, with the way tracks are now it's not really feasible to have a run what you brung class, MotoGP is a perfect example.
Didn't Gonda buy it from Huth? Then did Doug sell it to CCE?
Joint venture between Protac and WERA, bought the name/class from Huth, then when we shut down Pro Series we sold our half of the name to Doug for a buck to get it all over with. After NASB tanked he sold it to CCE at the same time Roger sold CCS.