my girlfriend and i were charged 50.00$ to enter the treack at VIR this weekend!!! the track officials said that was CCS'S fee. has CCS seen a ticket for an AMA national lately? we are BOTH pissed off. it is bad enough that entry fees are more expensive, but that was insulting!!!
50.00?! What the?! And CCS wonders why they don't get a better spectator turnout! That's amazing.
Can you be more specific? What you get for $50.00? Was it two 2-day passes + camping or what?
FL region pays $20 for one 2-day pass. Or $10 for a Saturday pass and $15 for a Sunday pass.
I just spoke with track management here at VIR and just wanted to let everyone know that the gate fee to VIR is NOT $50. A two day pass was available to everyone at $25 a person. Sunday's gate pass is $15. If anyone wanted to camp for the weekend, it was $25 extra. I just wanted to clear up this matter and make sure our riders know that we are not committing highway robbery. :)
Yes it's true that CCS takes a part of the gate. But, CCS also has better purses, better advertisement and nicer trophys than a lot of clubs. The money has to come from somewhere. In the end I think the extra five or ten dollars you pay at the gate is worth it.
you can see ana AMA national for 30.00$ a person. i was charged 25.00$ a piece for my girlfriend and i. what with all the hoopla about record growth, higher entry fees and now higher gate passes, CCS is becoming highly profitable. sorry guys, but it was a load of CRAP!!!
I think that their would be a much better attendance if the races were advertised! I heard a radio spot for VIR on my way to the track this morning and the radio spot said that VIR'S FIRST spectator event was next weekend april 20th! I guess that CCS is considered a club event and VIR does not count it for spectators. If the public is not aware then they will not come! I paid 15.00 for Sunday admission!
Quoteyou can see ana AMA national for 30.00$ a person. i was charged 25.00$ a piece for my girlfriend and i. what with all the hoopla about record growth, higher entry fees and now higher gate passes, CCS is becoming highly profitable. sorry guys, but it was a load of CRAP!!!
A multi-day pass for the AMA national at VIR is $50 in advance, $55 at the gate. Camping is an additional $20 per night (per vehicle), bringing your total to... $150 for two people for the weekend.
For the CCS weekend, it's $60 for the same 2 people.
For just Sat, the AMA admission is $35... there is no "Sat only" price for CCS (or WERA). They do not have the staff to patrol for people trying to rip them off and stay through sunday. However... for that Sat admission you get to see 9 races vs. 2 at the AMA weekend.
Sun at the AMA is $40, while CCS charges $15.
- Roach
Speaking of entry fees....
We pay to enter the races, yet still have to pay a 'gate' entry fee?.. just thought it was kinda odd... after all... isn't the reason the event happens, b/c WE enter the races... if no one entered the races, there wouldn't be much of an event... just a thought.
that's easy ecumike. MONEY. if they nickel and dime you to death, it looks better than gouge you up front. like i said. CCS boasts of record enrollment, yet raises their prices. kevin elliot, where are you?
oh yeah, roach...... CCS club racing is hardly AMA pro racing. FORMULA USA is not worth that price. IMHO
Dude, All the clubs in the US charge about the same. Some a little better, some a little worse. If racing is too expensive for you perhaps you should stick to trackdays.
stick this!! i won't be taken advantage of and not voice my opinion. i guarantee that if i pay my entry fees as i have for the last four years. and i see the trend of higher gate prices, as well as entry fees. while hearing simultaneously of CCS's "growth. either {A} ccs is not growing as it says. or {B} people are being ripped off. now you run along to your track days silly.
Quoteoh yeah, roach...... CCS club racing is hardly AMA pro racing. FORMULA USA is not worth that price. IMHO
::shrug:: then don't pay it, and don't go. That's an easy solution to the problem, and it's how a free-market economy works. Complaining doesn't do anything - showing the market will not bear the price does.
As for costs going up... perhaps insurance has gone up this year for track rentals due to the insurance companies losing their shirts on 9/11? I know NESBA (track day org) is paying 15% more this year for that reason. Inflation also happens. A 20oz soda was $1 last year at 7-11 ... it's a buck-ninteen now unless it's on sale.
And you're right... CCS is not the AMA, ergo, it's less than half the price for attendance. Ditto for FUSA events.
::shrug::
- Roach
::) ok roach. wouldn't you suppose that CCS knows that people have invested thousands up front to buy a bike, get a liscense, and then buy inflated entry fees AGAIN this season. do you think they would drive hours on end, get to a track, and say screw it i'm not paying that price!! HELL NO they wouldn't, and CCS knows this. by the way, if you know math at all, what is the increase if track admission goes from $20.00 to $25.00? not fifteen percent!!!
Quote::) ok roach. wouldn't you suppose that CCS knows that people have invested thousands up front to buy a bike, get a liscense, and then buy inflated entry fees AGAIN this season. do you think they would drive hours on end, get to a track, and say screw it i'm not paying that price!! HELL NO they wouldn't, and CCS knows this.
Ummm... and it's their fault you didn't call first, or look on the website, or call the track, or email them, or ... ? The information was available for you to make an educated decision whether to race/attend given their pricing. The information has been available since before the season started. I'm not trying to be rude... but I'm not sympathetic either.
Quoteby the way, if you know math at all, what is the increase if track admission goes from $20.00 to $25.00? not fifteen percent!!!
Jonny charges 20 cents for a lemonade. His mom takes half the money received for each lemonade as jonny is using the front lawn, her card table, and her favorite pitcher. How much does jonny have to raise the price of each lemonade to increase his take by 15%?
You're right... they're not making 15% more. They're only making 12.5%
It's $25 for WERA as well these days at most venues ($25 every race at summit, $30 for the cycle jam at VIR at the gate on Thurs).
I think you really underestimate the costs of doing what CCS (and WERA) do. Beyond that... it IS a for-profit business. The amount they charge is based on their costs, and what the market will bear.
If you want slightly cheaper race entries, go race with WERA and pre-enter everything (they offer a slight discount for pre-entry). If you enter the solo20 (GT race), and three sprints your cost is $185.
However... if you don't pre-enter with WERA, as your statement above about showing up and getting hit with "inflated prices" would suggest, the rates are exactly the same - $205 (plus track entry)
- Roach
ahh, thus my questions is answered, thanks Roach.
Quoteeither {A} ccs is not growing as it says. or {B} people are being ripped off. now you run along to your track days silly.
Sorry ... missed this one. What it means is that CCS *isn't* ripping people off. If they were, people would stop showing up. Thus they would not grow - they would shrink.
If you charge more for your product or service than the market will bear (perceived value), people will stop buying the product or service and buy something else / go elsewhere. If your prices are in line with, or are lower than your customers' perception of what the product is worth (excluding monopolies such as the phone company), people will buy the product and or use the service, and your business will grow.
CCS/FUSA is growing. You may not think the prices are right, but their attendance figures show that you are in the minority. ::shrug:: That's just how it works - it's doesn't mean your opinion is incorrect... it just means that most people don't share it. The old addage "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of time" is never wrong.
- Roach
roach, 5.00$ is 25% of 20.00% idiot!!
Quoteroach, 5.00$ is 25% of 20.00% idiot!!
And when all else fails, the uneducated turn to personal insults.
Obviously the Jonny math problem in the prior message was over your head.
$5 is indeed 25% of $20. The track takes half of the gate at events, leaving CCS/WERA with a net gain of $2.50, or 12.5%.
- Roach
Roach, I'd be willing to put all of my credentialing up against yours. Now, if you prefer to be a head of cattle mindlessly following the ass in front of you to slaughter, go right ahead. Me personally, if I see something that is crap, I will surely say so. I say CCS is either lying about their growth, or they are gouging their consumers with higher entry fees and gate fees. If you want to spout 10th grade economics and talk about what markets will bear, go right ahead. Hey, in your tenth grade economics class did they talk about inflation? It's caused by one thing...... GREED. You see, cost of living goes up as people creep up the cost of goods and services. Just like............. YOU GUESSED IT!!!! CCS IS DOING NOW!!! I'd be curious if you want to continue this discussion and keep calling me uneducated. I'm sure my business volume, revenues, and profits smoke yours. Cheers.
BRAD WILSON
Brad,
It is an entry form, not a subpeona. As Roach pointed out, we do have competition you could spend your money with if we are charging too much. (I believe Brian pointed out that post-entry fees are the same for both organizations.)
Our costs have risen nearly 30% over the last 2 years, and the only increases you have seen were $5 on the first and second entry in 2001(equal to 10% by anyones math) and in 2002 for purse paying classes (in which the purses were increased by at least 50%.) If you race for just trophies, your fees are the same for 2002 as they were in 2001! So the net entry/gate increases do not equal the increase in our costs, we cover that by the increase in numbers that we tell you about. And as Brian pointed out, there are no tracks on the East coast that do not take a sizable portion of the gates fees collected. (If you make it a spectator event, they take even more!)
As a business man, you should now that before you try to figure how much profit or loss some one is making, you have to know the business. Next time you see me at a race, stop and talk to me. I saw you at VIR and I am suprised you did not talk to me of your concerns then. I will be glad to give you a briefing in Motorcycle Road Race Promotion 101 the next time I see you.
Until then, good day.
kevin, if iwere to go to all my accounts and say. sorry doctor but this now cost you more. oh yeah and this now costs you more, oh yeah i forgot, this will also cost you more. would i tell him to stow it because he probably doesn't know anything about running a huge corporation. would i not expect him/her to voice disdain and possibly frustration? HELL YES. the fact is, there is NO WAY your costs have gone up that much. it is just like roach said, you set the price, and the customers will pay it. you guys forget from time to time what we are, CUSTOMERS!!! and i sure as HELL wouldn't tell my customers as you would suggest "you could go get your stuff somewhere else." that would be suicide. ;)
To me, the prices seem reasonable as much as the prices are reasonable in any other organization like this. This is not a cheap sport...although I'm sure we all wish it was.
You complained, and I think that is fair...but there isn't much else that can be done. Now you know the prices, and if its too much, why not just take your business elsewhere as has already been suggested? Nothing speaks louder then the mighty dollar.
Or, work with CCS to figure out ways that prices can be lowered. Just voicing a complaint rarely gets anywhere. Come up with viable options for CCS to cover its expenses and make a profit, while lowering fees, and I'm sure they will listen.
Shawn
once again shawn, VERY VALUBLE INFO!!!! Thanks but, i will say whatever i please. "take your business elswhere" BRILLIANT!!!!!!! ::) do you own a business perhaps, if so not for very long.
I think that the gate fees being charged are extremely reasonable when taken from a spectatator point of view compared to other forms of entertainment. What other forms of entertainment can you get 10 hours or better from for a measely 25.00 for the weekend or 15.00 for the day? Try going to a movie and see what you pay for 90 minutes of entertainment or better yet try something like a NASCAR race where it may cost you that much to park your car and the gate fee will probably exceed 100.00 for about 4 hours of entertainment. If my memory serves me correctly the gate fees for motorcycle races have only increased about 10.00 per weekend since the mid 80's. Personally I do not claim to have a lot of insight to the total cost involved in running a track weekend but it seems to me that the way to get the sport to grow and for corporate dollars to want to be involved then public awareness and attendance would be a big step in the right direction. From an earlier post it was stated that the track took a bigger chunk if the event is listed as a spectator event but if you increased the number of fans by a large enough percentage then the money made off of the gate would probably also end up being higher. That would just be the icing on the cake as a strong fan base would increase the number of people exposed to the sport and would perhaps bring in new racers too boot. Look at what NASCAR has become due to a very smart promotion of the sport! The corporate dollars flow because of the public interest in the sport. Granted this is just club racing but this country is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to motorcycle racing and the promoting is the key! Turn on any motorcycle race overseas and look at the fan base and then compare the turn outs even for an AMA PRO SANCTIONED EVENT HERE yet Nascar has turnouts in excess of 100,000 for EVERY EVENT not to mention the millions watching on TV. Unless you are INVOLVED with or seek out information regarding these events people do not know that they even exist so how can they attend?
I agree with both groups here. I understand that it costs a lot to run these events, and I understand that prices do go up. But I would prefer that entry fee were raised before gate fees. The reason for this is that I choose to race and I save up money for all the expenses. But often times my family or friends want to come out to watch me race, and then I tell them that if they come on Sat. it will cost them $25, even if they only come that one day. Yes, there are races almost throughout the day and there probably is $25 worth of entertainment on one day, but most of my friends and family only come to watch me race. So the $25, or $15 if they only come sun., often dissuades people from enjoying the weekend with me. So I would propose that the people who actually race should shoulder the burdon of increased costs.
Joe
I can't believe someone can actually complain about paying 50 bucks to get into an event when that's not even a drop in the bucket compared to the other costs of racing. Last time I checked, I spend over 500 dollars per race weekend and could spend much more if I felt the need. I am currently in my first year of racing, but I would verture a guess that entry fees are not the only things that cost more. If memory serves me correct from the race I spectated at last year, tire prices have gone up more than gate entry. I'm sure you will be complaining about the price of gas next and then the cost of internet service which is bound to go up since we are all hooked on it now. It's an endless thing and the only solution is to go start your own racing organization, make your own tires, drill an oil well, etc. or you can just accept it and move on.
litespeed, i was not a spectator. i am a racer. and i could care less if you think i am "whining" i was not the only one. the guy at the gate said many people were upset with CCS'S fees at the gate. my point is, don't gouge my entry fees and then gouge my admission to get in and race. THAT IS DOUBLE DIPPING! if i want to say so in a public forum, i will. don't like it? toooooo bad.
I've been in involved in motorsports of some kind for over 20 years. I've never had to pay extra at the gate after paying the race entry fee. If I'm not mistaken, CCS rents the track for a fee. Is this not payed for by entry fees? Do they also charge venders to sell at the race? As for not allowing to pay for Sat. only, refund $10 at the end of the day and take back the silly bracelet. I have to travel out of town to every event, so don't compare cost with going to the movies ect... Just my $.02
CCS does not charge vendor fees, the tracks do, and our gate fee has been the well within the industry standard for the entire 19 years we have been around. (Less than some, more than others.)
Motorcycle entry fees are 1/3 what car entry fees are, and that is due to the "gate" charge. (Spreading the cost out over 500 people makes it easier than the 100 racers footing the bill.) Car events that include 3-4 "crew" passes are $185 - $250, and if you go into the Pro classes, entries there are $1200-$3500 and they include up to 50 gate passes.
Our insurance increased $750 per event, from $3500 to $4250, that is 20%, from 2001. Track rent at all but 2 tracks increased by 10%, one track in the Mid-West went up 20% from 2001. Staff costs have gone up, 5% on average, some places as high as 20%. Brad, you are mistaken when you say there is no way our costs have gone up that much, (heck, our costs rose the minute PACE acquired CCS). You get no "poor little guy" breaks when you are a publicly held corporation. We did not whine about it, we figured out what it took to make ends meet, and adjusted accordingly. Our fees are well within the industry standard, so if we are "gouging", they are too.
We like our customers to be happy, and to make them happy we must stay in business, and to stay in business we must at least break even for the year. We even want you to be happy Brad, that is why I suggested that if you were unhappy, you should go find happiness somewhere.
Relax, you will live longer.
If i reimbursed you for your $50.00, would you shut up and promise never to come to another CCS event ever ? I am willing pay extra at the gate to not let whiney pessimistic dorks like you in.
Regards,
Kevin
QuoteMotorcycle entry fees are 1/3 what car entry fees are, and that is due to the "gate" charge. (Spreading the cost out over 500 people makes it easier than the 100 racers footing the bill.) Car events that include 3-4 "crew" passes are $185 - $250, and if you go into the Pro classes, entries there are $1200-$3500 and they include up to 50 gate passes.
Were talking about club races. If you compare to the same level car races, I raced for $1000 to win for $50 entry. My crewmembers payed $15 ea. (I'd much rather race motorcycles for a piece of wood though.) I just think the gate fee is a little high. It keeps spectators away.
Enough already!! I can't believe you're complaining about $50 for a weekend of racing. I spent over $800 two weeks ago at NFMP. And I didn't even finish my races. This week I'll be at Moroso and I need to spend another $550. I estimate I'll spend about $6,000 for whole year of racing. And it's all my money, No real sponsor yet.
So why don't you give it a rest!!
>:(
don't like the thread? stop coming in here. ::) now let's say each racer races an average "and i'm being generous" of six races a year. takes one persone with them, and is charged five dollars a head extra. times 175 racers in a region. that is 1750 .00$ extra per region, per weekend. how many regions are there? lets say six."i think there are more" 10,500.00$ extra, per weekend. now you mean to say on my modest calculations, that your budget went up 63.000$? not including liscense fees, and higher entry fees per race? lets say each competitor races four races a weekend."some a lot more" at an average of 30.00$ extra in entry fees, times six regions, that equals an extra 315,000$ extra in entry fees. don't forget my calculations are modest. 378,000$ total in increased revenue? wow, i noticed you guys were smiling more this weekend. now i know why. :o ::) ;)
Nice math Brad, but you assume too much. You know what happens when you do that.
Last years gate fees at Summit Point and VIR were $25/$15, so there really in no increase there over 2001. (You don't get out much, do you. Gate fees are not the same at every track, so you could only count 8 events anyway in your guestimations.) The average "club" weekend has a price tag of $35,000. Using the $42 entry price average our 577 entry average nets $24,000 in income. Gate of 600 people (average) equals $12,000. Percentage wise a $1000 profit on $35,000 doesn't even equal 3% profit (we'd make more on a flippin' CD without the risk if we were really "greedy" like you think). Then throw in one 400 entry event and you must have 8 average events to just break even after the loss. (And everytime it rains, you can kiss the 600 gate passes goodbye, then it becomes more like 200-250.)
Zeal without knowledge is a dangerous thing.
whatever kevin. hows about we peek into those books and see just how those poor losses are calculated? ;)
I guess I'm comparing apples to oranges here. All my experience has been with drag racing. They seem to have more community envolvement as far as sponsorship for each event. Lots of automotive type businesses put up money every week. This allows the track to charge less and still payout the same. I would like to bring my family with me to the track but can't afford it. Just my $.04.
(see, everything has gone up.) :D
Kevin, I'll stop whinning now.
Interesting thread ... hey D.O.C., have you bought your Clear Channel stock yet?
no, i like companies with promise for the future. hell CCS and Clear channel can't get 5000 spectators into daytona when there are over half a million enthusiasts in town!!!
Clear Channel is not the promoter of any Daytona events, just the sanctioning body. Daytona International Speedway is the promoter of the event, and they don't have too much trouble with getting a crowd when they really want one. Until Laguna's SBK event last year, Daytona had the record for paid admissions to a motorcycle road race event in the U.S., so I would guess they can sell tickets whenever they want to.
you are talking about the daytona 200, not sanctioned by CCS. ::) how many did FUSA draw?
Ask the speedway, they will not give us the spectator information.
The only promotor allowed by DIS is ISC, and we are not privy to their information. They promote CCS, Formula USA, Grand-AM, Nascar, WKA, Supercross and anything else that runs as a spectator event at the speedway, including the Daytona 200 by Arai.
well, maybe someone from clearchannel could foster some relationships and get say 10% of the motorcycle riders that are in town and dying for something to do?!? 8)
QuoteRoach, I'd be willing to put all of my credentialing up against yours. Now, if you prefer to be a head of cattle mindlessly following the ass in front of you to slaughter, go right ahead. Me personally, if I see something that is crap, I will surely say so. I say CCS is either lying about their growth, or they are gouging their consumers with higher entry fees and gate fees. If you want to spout 10th grade economics and talk about what markets will bear, go right ahead. Hey, in your tenth grade economics class did they talk about inflation? It's caused by one thing...... GREED. You see, cost of living goes up as people creep up the cost of goods and services. Just like............. YOU GUESSED IT!!!! CCS IS DOING NOW!!! I'd be curious if you want to continue this discussion and keep calling me uneducated. I'm sure my business volume, revenues, and profits smoke yours. Cheers.
BRAD WILSON
C'mon ROACH! At least tell him that you retired last year, and that he should enjoy his unfounded claims as you sit around in your underwear trying to decide which nut to scratch next. :D
I can see how a small organization like ccs could have a hard time making enough money to float, no matter who owns them. No business owners are going to keep pouring money into a losing effort just so guys like us have a place to race. Every business has the right in this free country of ours to make money. If anyone can't live with the fact that some of their money will trickle into the hands of someone who is not losing there shirt, you should absolutely refuse to give them another penny. In fact, if I felt as strongly about it as some do, I would be ashamed to participate in such a rip off. Condoning such unethical business practices makes you as guilty as they are! You are promoting this ruthless giant when you should never give a den of thieves resources with which they take advantage of other people. As for some of us, we are glad to have a financially stable organization to keep us racing. hopefully, when the economy is less active, we will still have a place to race. GO GUYS
QuoteC'mon ROACH! At least tell him that you retired last year, and that he should enjoy his unfounded claims as you sit around in your underwear trying to decide which nut to scratch next. :D
Nah... nothing to be gained there. I'm sure he's much more successfull than I 8)
I did, however, send out an email to the various economic discussion sites. I explained that they should stop discussing cost-pull, cost-push, and supply vs. demand in a free-market economy as causes of inflation since it's all hogwash. Brad Wilson knows the real cause of inflation - people are just greedy!
The downside, of course, is the ensuing glut of unemployed macro economics professors that's sure to follow this revelation.
- Roach
Brad, I started racing over ten years ago and have raced with virtually every organization, club level and pro. CCS ten years ago under Roger Edmundson charged 50.00 per race period, no refund policy, if you crashed on saturday and could not make your 8 races on Sunday, oh well that's racing. With the Pro Series the entries were even higher and the track time was less. Todays gate fees are within 5.00 a day of what they were ten years ago and at some tracks they are still the same. Why dont you call up your local race track and ask what their rent was 10 years ago and what it is today! I also feel that you haven't taken into account that all the staff people and corner workers at your races are being paid for their services, long gone are the days when everyone was a volunteer for love of the sport. Only a few tracks still have volunteer corner workers. And these secret books that you refer to with Mr. Elliott are not that secret. Just call a track and get a rental rate for the weekend, then set up ambulances, staff, insurance, cornerworkers, feed them all for two days and pay numerous incidental track fees such as camping and restroom charges, oh and get trophies for everyone and don't forget the purses and contingency. I am well aware of all this because I am now a race director for CCS and I am amazed that they are able to continue putting on races with the huge expense and close profit/loss margin they work with. If you want to get a better idea of what I am talking about, you should volunteer your services for a weekend at a CCS event, if after that you still think it is money gouging,racer abusing organization I would personally refund your 50.00 gate fee. You have alot of pent up anger, you need to help with the solution if you feel there is a problem rather than bashing it. Racing is expensive, maybe you should take up kite flying, parks are free. ;D
I think someone should be raising mortal ____ with Hewlet Packard, Compaq, and Sony for gouging us with computer prices. What a rip off. And how about the nerve of those auto-makers. Can you believe it. I think I'll take a look at their books! Everyone is welcome to march in and check out this bunch of thugs. Aren't they? Or is some one elses business, someone elses business? CCS need not defend their cost or diclose proffit or loss to anyone. They need to make a proffit like any other business you do business with. Have you interigated Cicuit city? Maybe Wal-Mart? Do you own a computer or boeeow one? Have you eaten at Mcdonalds more tha once? You know how much they charge now. You have to watch them suckers, ya know? I would like to see CCS, WERA, and every other racing body just simply say " It's none of your business" like anyone else in business. They owe no explanations to anyone , and as far as I know have not lied about how much it is going to cost to play this game. Keep up the good work, give us lot's of track time and 99.9 of us will come with the fees we are aware of and have a blast racing and not try to pry into things that are none of our business. Jeff Mckinney
This has been a very interesting topic. The only thing I would like to see is posibly the use of different colored bands for one day passes. Green for a 2 day pass, red for a Saturday only pass, and maybe blue for a Sunday pass. Then people could come for saturday only or sunday only and it would be easy to catch people who were trying to cheat the system and go for two days for the price of one. The reason I say this is just for the few spectators that would probably come out to support their friends if they could come just for saturday. For people to come as brad said it does cost alot just to see you race one or two races on saturday. Just for the people who came to watch me it was $100. They did not know that sunday was $15 or they would have come on that day. Just a suggestion. I thought that CCS has to purchase bands anyway why not in a few different colors and that way it would be easier to get folks out there to support us. Think about it. to get your non motorcyle riding friends to come out and watch the races and then tell them oh by the way you have to buy a 2 day $50 pass? They aren't to likely to come out. Just a thought.
Jim Eglinger
I think in the SW region it is possible to go Sat or Sun. Sunday typically uses one color band and Sat has another. If you want the two day pass you get the Sunday color on Sat.
roach, as someone who runs over twelve million in revenue annually through their business, i can promise i'm not as stupid as you proclaim. just because i broke things down simply, it is not indicative of my intellingence.
p.s i too can retire, it's just that i'm thirty and i've got some BIG plans. now run along and brush those teeth.
So has this whole thing sunk below mud level into the "I have more than you" category? I mean, we all occasionally say dumb sh!t once in a while, but y'all need to grow up.
Brad, go pick on Mladin, or something. He hasn't posted on the board in a few days. ;D
damn it papa, this is my forum!!! go back to the wera site!!! ;D
Papa was here first!! so there.
he got here in oct.