CCS is coming up there in a few weeks...........
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=29603
It can't be anymore dangerous than Gateway... Oh wait! Its totally irresponsible to saction races @ that s**thole.
I guess promoters are just trying to get some safety improvements to Iowa speedway. Remember how the safety system works.
1st: racers complaint- walls don't get moved
2nd: racers get hurt- walls don't get moved
3rd: racer dies (major liability)- track decides to move walls...maybe!
The BMW team did the right thing, unfortunately, the rest of the competitors didn't pull out and punish MotoST for choosing a crappy venue.
What we really need is a racing association that CCS, WERA, SCCA, AHRMA, etc would use to petition changes at tracks. In recent memory, it seems that none of the above organizations have been able proactively improve safety conditions... maybe we just need a larger pool of money to wave in front of greedy track owners.
Quote from: 123user on July 14, 2007, 02:32:18 PM
It can't be anymore dangerous than Gateway... Oh wait! Its totally irresponsible to saction races @ that s**thole.
I guess promoters are just trying to get some safety improvements to Iowa speedway. Remember how the safety system works.
1st: racers complaint- walls don't get moved
2nd: racers get hurt- walls don't get moved
3rd: racer dies (major liability)- track decides to move walls...maybe!
The BMW team did the right thing, unfortunately, the rest of the competitors didn't pull out and punish MotoST for choosing a crappy venue.
What we really need is a racing association that CCS, WERA, SCCA, AHRMA, etc would use to petition changes at tracks. In recent memory, it seems that none of the above organizations have been able proactively improve safety conditions... maybe we just need a larger pool of money to wave in front of greedy track owners.
+1 It wouldn't bother me in the least if we got rid of Gateway.
I have not been to Iowa yet but by the sounds of it, it's scarier than GIR.
While were bitching about unsafe tracks, :biggrin: how about Summit Shenandoah? I hear a lot of people trying to convince others that it's really a safe track and that all the safety concerns are overblown and unfounded. Bullshit. Other than motards, bikes have no business on that track.
I actually kind of like gateway, seeing its my home track, trust me we have made several changes to make it a safer track. we have added airfence to the walls additional hay bails ect.. I dont know about iowa though. the local club that puts on the trackdays at gateway went out of thier way raflles and fundraisers to get money for airfence. Granted gateway still is a shit hole compared to the better road tracks but its like any other racing there are tracks you hate and track you love and tracks you learn to like.
gateway is my home track too... its kinda embarassing! The layout is fine, but the transitions and walls are a joke. The chicane was implemented to slow down the transition to the straight, but it points you at a wall.
Airfence is NOT a substitute for poor track layouts. Relying on airfence is like relying on your car's airbag and not wearing your seatbelt.
The racing organizations' should be spear-heading the safety agenda... not individual racing teams (like Ulrich's- great job guy's!!!) Individual racers have little input in the racing schedule- but we can vote with our dollars. The racing organizations should be voting with their dollars too!
An unfortunate example is Gingerman, which was left of the schedule this year. Its probably the safest track on the circuit- but poor attendence last season doomed it for this year.
Also unfortunate, our nations largest race promoter, the AMA, is more concerned with fighting for the rights of idiots that don't want to wear helmets, than truly improving the racing conditions.
Gateway would be nice if it wasnt inside an oval track. That chicane scared the hell out of me every time. Nearly tossed me off my F2 once. Plus rolling along next to a wall is slightly un-nerving on a bike.
I was watching the Rolex race at Iowa today and I dont see how anyone in their RIGHT MIND would get on a bike there. As 123user stated, its not until someone gets seriously hurt or killed do some tracks start actually thinking of safety.
The walls are the scary part of GIR. The layout was REALLY fun I thought but all of the walls are un-nerving.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=29617
Not good. :(
Prayers sent for the injured.
So... Parriott tries to do the right thing, and MotoST fines him? Now two riders are critically injured? Its obvious that MotoST is putting itself before the safety of its riders.
CCS doesn't need to be affiliated with an organization like that!!!
Any track can be safe or unsafe.
The biggest probs are the inexperienced street riders going over their abilities trying to make a race out of a track day.
If you ride SMART, you can handle any situation or track.
Gateway is a rather technical track.
T6 has 3 parts to it. 6a has no particular line. 6b is one you have to stay outside. and 6c cuts hard to a straight. Google Earth it, you'll see.
T7 has a dip 6ft out from middle, either keep it tight or go around.
The chicane could be improved but serves a purpose.
The walls do not bother me at all. Get them out of your head. Kenny can show you how to knee drag the front wall. HeHe
If any of you remember the OLD Gateway track, It was a real blast.
Quarter mile drag ,other way, down the strip, hard brake into T1 right , T2 reduced radius right, T3 T4 left right switch, T5 full speed left down the shutdown lanes, soft right into T6 hairpin left, T7 decent 3rd gear layover to the right, T8 was a hard brake then right, T9 was a full throttle sweeper to the right, T10 cut in good to the left on the brakes setting you up for T11 hard right leading you to T12 that tuned left back down the drag strip. watch out for drag armco...
That was the day...
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 12:02:02 AM
Any track can be safe or unsafe.
The biggest probs are the inexperienced street riders going over their abilities trying to make a race out of a track day.
If you ride SMART, you can handle any situation or track.
What? That makes no sense. We are talking about racing at tracks, not cruising around at track days.
True.
But the same goes for a race as the street. You don't fly through the neigborhood do ya?
If it is TIGHT, SLOW DOWN.
Just because you are in a race does not nessisarily mean you have to go fast Everywere on the track.
Quote from: 123user on July 14, 2007, 02:32:18 PM
What we really need is a racing association that CCS, WERA, SCCA, AHRMA, etc would use to petition changes at tracks. In recent memory, it seems that none of the above organizations have been able proactively improve safety conditions... maybe we just need a larger pool of money to wave in front of greedy track owners.
Well, first, I guess I'm struggling to figure out how track owners are greedy.
Tracks cost millions of dollars to build, more millions to maintain, then you have to hire a legal team to deal with potential issues after spending the money. Things like noise, traffic, underground gas lines, and so on.
How about issues that the people that claimed they would rent the track never came up with in talks? Organizations can claim to be interested and even approve the layout, and even track changes, without having ridden on it.
Liability issues from pit bike crashes? Another problem for tracks.
A racing organization does have a right to protect its product. A racer buys a license from an organization, and the individual racer has a right to decide to race or not to race. Voicing an opinion to the press can cause problems for the organization and they generally have the opportunity for recourse in the rule book towards those who do so. I like Brian. Good guy. I think we met in 1999 or 2000, and I respect him. But it would have been better to act as they did pulling out of the race rather than developing problems. Hey, maybe some people showed up because of the voicing of problems.
What changes should a track make? Based on what kind of guidelines? That's a big trick. No race track is perfect. And, potentially more important, no rider is perfect. I've seen crashes happen in ridiculous places where I could not for see that someone would do something so stupid, do nothing, or have a failure.
Similarly, the second rider hurt at IS didn't hit the wall. He hit the ground. Higbee is hurt. Yeah, but he was part of the rider protest at the AMA National at the Pomona Fairplex in 1994 like I was. He has recognition of the risks involved in all this. I wanna even say that he raced at Macau. At some point, racers need to be responsible for the risk that is implied by signing wavers and racing. I don't know of any guns pointed toward our heads. It certainly isn't for the "wood" we get nor the big checks we get at the end of the year for all those championship points.
Back to tracks...
Every track thinks of safety. Their insurance companies remind them if they aren't thinking of it. But seldom are their guidelines for providing it effectively. Next, the organizations rent the tracks for the races. The track is providing its facility. If the track is that bad, a couple things should probably happen. First, riders shouldn't be showing up. If no one shows up, then there's no reason for the racing organization to rent the track for its race. With no rental income, the track will seek to do something to bring renters back or develop their track in a different direction.
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 12:47:04 AM
True.
But the same goes for a race as the street. You don't fly through the neigborhood do ya?
If it is TIGHT, SLOW DOWN.
I think Brian's big problem with the track was the long turn using the banked oval. This is similar to how Pheonix was. A shallow oval that had us with our knee on the apron or on the track generating a lot of heat in one side of the tire going very fast. Any problem would cause one to head right toward a wall from that tangent. You can't put an air fence there because it isn't designed to operate with glancing blows that way. The Gateway oval was this way when the AMA Superbike series raced there in 1995.
Kudos Super...
Super; Back in 95 was the OLD track.
Sig;
Read the last line of my second post...
I remember watching an AMA superbike race at the OLD Gateway when I first moved out here. Got Freddie Spencer's autograph when he was riding the Ducati.
COOL!!!
Boy, I can't find anything on the internet.
I know the track was shut down in the early 90's. I know there was an endurance race on the old track in 1993 or 1994 as there was a guy we knew that lost his leg there. I last raced there in 1990.
Seemed like WERA had someone get killed there in 1996, and I though that it was on the new track ran with the racing on the oval and the AMA running the same track. But maybe I'm wrong today. AMA Media guide is no help either...LOL!
Quote from: Super Dave on July 15, 2007, 01:35:01 AM
I know the track was shut down in the early 90's. I know there was an endurance race on the old track in 1993 or 1994 as there was a guy we knew that lost his leg there. I last raced there in 1990.
WERA had someone get killed there in 1996
I though that it was on the new track ran with the racing on the oval and the AMA running the same track. But maybe I'm wrong today.
Super;;
Back in the day, when I last raced, I think Gateway shut down in winter of 94 cause on 1-1-95 is when my MCRA membership expired and WERA licence afterwards.
The NEW track(s) opened in 96. I know this cause in 06 NHRA had it's 10th anuall Nat's then.
I didn't know WERA put out Hits on peeps... HaHa
AMA had an event on the Old track for sure probably in 93 or 94. I was there.
As for them having one on the New track, I have no clue...
Quote from: Super Dave on July 15, 2007, 01:35:01 AM
Boy, I can't find anything on the internet.
I know the track was shut down in the early 90's. I know there was an endurance race on the old track in 1993 or 1994 as there was a guy we knew that lost his leg there. I last raced there in 1990.
Seemed like WERA had someone get killed there in 1996, and I though that it was on the new track ran with the racing on the oval and the AMA running the same track. But maybe I'm wrong today. AMA Media guide is no help either...LOL!
I'm pretty sure AMA never ran the inside the oval track. I moved here in 94 and I think it was either 94 or 95 I saw that race on the old course.
I know that I did watch a WERA race not long after the infield course opened.
It does appear to be 1995 that the AMA event happened according to the AMA Media guide. Duhamel won Superbike, Filice in 250, Randy Renfrow in 125, Duhamel again in 600SS, Fred Merkel in 750 SS, Aaron Yates in H-D race, and Dutchman Racing in Superteams.
I can't find a track distance or a lap time.
I looked on Gateways website and hit the Track tab then down to track history button.
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/
http://www.gatewayraceway.com/track/history.php
What B.S. NO HISTORY... That SUCKS...
I will be there tommorrow for the nhra divisional w/ top alki's and see if I can get any info.
Found this....
http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/IL/Gateway.html#HistoricalNote
Say's this was the config in 95.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.na-motorsports.com%2FTracks%2FIL%2Fimages%2Fgateway%2Fgateway.gif&hash=d6ada79aa03b1a859a7eeddab40ee691e3969ad4)
Then in 96 this was the temporary config.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.na-motorsports.com%2FTracks%2FIL%2Fimages%2Fgateway%2Fg96tmp.gif&hash=8f5721101fb6486194997ce27884d60e3f629cad)
That '96 config is just a modified section of the original course.
Where's Sean Clark? He'll know when they ran that course. I don't think they did it for very long before they moved out of Gateway for their races.
God, does that bring back memories...
If I recall correctly, the current pit lane is the old strip.
How did you find this?
Hey super;
Remember the bar "Stages" behind the track?
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 02:29:56 AM
God, does that bring back memories...
If I recall correctly, the current pit lane is the old strip.
I thought that the current T4/T3 was kind of like the old T3, even with the slight elevation change. I have been told that nothing is left. It was all leveled and redone. If anything is similar, it's by coincidence.
Hey, R1;
How did you find that NA-motorsports site?
It ROCKS...
I found an old track I only heard stories about, Mid.America.Raceway
http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/MO/MidAmerica.html
Cool....
Quote from: Super Dave on July 15, 2007, 02:41:26 AM
I thought that the current T4/T3 was kind of like the old T3, even with the slight elevation change. I have been told that nothing is left. It was all leveled and redone. If anything is similar, it's by coincidence.
Yah, all gone,
You had to watch out on T3 in the wet... Going in n up left and over right was quite fun,
I remember coming out Hydroplaneing both wheels at the same time coming out n drifting over to the edge.
I froze... didn't let off or add. Just rode it out. The hairs on the back of my neck were stuck in my coller...
I got the corners messed up on my previouse post but still had it down...:)
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 02:52:43 AM
Hey, R1;
How did you find that NA-motorsports site?
It ROCKS...
I think I typed in gateway +old in google.
Yeah, I know the old staging area for the 1/4 mile there was part of the old road course. Looks like it was a kick ass track! Lots of elevation changes.
Yep...
Goin to bed.
Will post ya tommorrow after the drags. see what I can find out from the track officials then.
later...
noid.
Quote from: r1owner on July 15, 2007, 03:04:24 AM
Looks like it was a kick ass track! Lots of elevation changes.
Was neat, but dangerous. I have videos someplace. Steel barriers in a lot of places. Last corners were kind of like a hall way, and we raced without thinking a lot about it. then it got lined with tons of hay bales. That made a mess when someone hit or even just tagged a portion of it. Leaves you with bales in front of you trying to figure out what to do. That got replaced with garbage cans, which blew around. Blocks were put in them to keep them in place, which had some painful results. Finally that was replaced with the cans with one gallon containers of water. On the last lap of a race coming out of the last corner, I touched my rear brake lever against a can, and I went down. I took out four to eight cans, and the water from the gallon containers rained down all over. I still hit the steel barriers, but it was just a glancing blow.
Not much elevation change. A little. More than Blackhawk, a lot less than Heartland Park Topeka.
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 01:10:40 AM
Sig;
Read the last line of my second post...
this one?
"Just because you are in a race does not nessisarily mean you have to go fast Everywere on the track."
That also doesn't make sense. Sure you go slower in the slow parts but you are still going as fast as you can go without wrecking. That's racing.
great... just when I was getting excited about this track, (cuz it's only 45 min away) I have to worry about safety and being on a 170hp machine.
Lemme see... We ran a National at Gateway the weekend before the AMA race there in I think 95. But I'm horrible with years. Not sure ever had a rider die at either Gateway, had one hurt bad at the new track when he didn't let go of his bike and got stuck between it and the wall. He held on for a long long time. We have done some races on the new track obviously, ran at night under the lights with an Endurance, ran pro/am and amateur sprints and it worked pretty well especially for a modified oval track.
The new track isn't perfect but it can be run safely, you have to rethink how you do the chicane, it can't be like a normal one, think more funnel like. We've done it and done it well (thank you Ed Bargy). We quit running there due to turnouts, not safety issues.
Maybe it was a track day. They were just starting around that time.
This is where I need all those back issues of American Road Racing and RRW.
Quote from: racrx451 on July 15, 2007, 02:58:18 PM
great... just when I was getting excited about this track, (cuz it's only 45 min away) I have to worry about safety and being on a 170hp machine.
If you're talking about Gateway, it's not as bad as some people are making it out to be.
Quote from: Mongo on July 15, 2007, 04:09:37 PM
The new track isn't perfect but it can be run safely, you have to rethink how you do the chicane, it can't be like a normal one, think more funnel like. We've done it and done it well (thank you Ed Bargy). We quit running there due to turnouts, not safety issues.
Yeah, I wonder if they put more pavement just to outside of the last turn (NASCAR pit in). Then we could go further out and slow down out there (maybe with a slightly sharper turn that would put us onto the straight at less of an angle.
Quote from: r1owner on July 15, 2007, 04:43:33 PM
If you're talking about Gateway, it's not as bad as some people are making it out to be.
no, i raced gateway this year and that track is by far my least favorite. Im talking about the Iowa Speedway... I don't want that one to be 2nd from the bottom but Im afraid it may very well be.
FYI-
95/96 was the transition between old and new Gateway tracks per officials...
BTW, the o'riley score board is where "Stages" was and the grassy area between track and paddoc of oval is where old strip used to be. Some of the old buildings are still there but moved to include security and mantinence bldgs. some of the old equipment are still there too.
Mr. Bret Kepner, of drag racing notariety, is one of the historians.
He can be reached at his website www.bretkepnerphotos.com and the stlsr.com forum.
If you don't ride beyond your abilities and the track's capacity there shoulden't be any probs...
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 06:38:23 PM
If you don't ride beyond your abilities and the track's capacity there shoulden't be any probs...
So let's say you are out there not really pushing it in a race, maybe you are just racing to get in track time......
Who is to say somebody won't lay it down right in front of you or hit you from behind, or cut you off and cause you to wreck....etc etc etc.
Riding within your limits isn't going to keep you safe always.
I do agree.
There are places that i've raced at that have been called dangerous. Some of those places still allowed me a short opportunity to at least decide that I should put the bike on the ground before hitting something. It would be nice if Gateway didn't have the wall separating the infield from the oval entering turn one. A different chicane would be good too.
I like the layout even though I've plowed the wall on the brakes into one.
Quote from: Super Dave on July 15, 2007, 07:54:38 PM
It would be nice if Gateway didn't have the wall separating the infield from the oval entering turn one.
For the life of me, I can't understand why that wall is even there! Wouldn't it make more sense for the BUSCH guys to have a wall separating pit in from the track where a car is most likely to spin back up on to the track if they lose control?
T1 is IMO the scariest turn there, not the chicane.
Quote from: Sig on July 15, 2007, 07:39:25 PM
So let's say you are out there not really pushing it in a race, maybe you are just racing to get in track time......
Who is to say somebody won't lay it down right in front of you or hit you from behind, or cut you off and cause you to wreck....etc etc etc.
Riding within your limits isn't going to keep you safe always.
Dude;
You can "What-if" everything to Death.
If life scares you that much, stay in bed...
Oh BTW. Lay on your back, I don't want you to die of "SIDS"...
Not to be mean but, damn... Get over it. You can Not control Everything in life, Just live it and be HAPPY.
You're right, you can't control everything in life but you CAN make intelligent decisions about track layout and safety precautions.
You should be able to wreck and at least have a shot at not hitting a hard wall.
Tracks are TONs better than what they used to be looking at old photos but that doesn't mean that they can't improve further.
as long as the organizations keep renting the tracks, the track owners have no reason to make changes. the only way the track will change anything fast is if the organizations as a hole come to the agreement that they aren't going to use that track until the owners make changes.
personally i think it's bullshit that the track organizations have to buy the air fences. it's like walmart making a guy in a wheelchair paint the handicap parking spaces before he goes in to shop.
The way I look at it If you dont like it dont go. goto blackhawk that weekend. Me personally, I dont even think about walls and what not..
The voices in my head blur anything out :ahhh:
Quote from: Court Jester on July 15, 2007, 10:21:30 PM
as long as the organizations keep renting the tracks, the track owners have no reason to make changes. the only way the track will change anything fast is if the organizations as a hole come to the agreement that they aren't going to use that track until the owners make changes.
I don't know what it is, but Gateway could give two shits if someone rents their track. I think it sits idle a hell of a lot more than it's used. I see your point, but most tracks don't care a whole lot about bikes. Everyone keeps saying they make their money off cars. I don't know why that is. Do car orgs. rent the track more than motorcycle orgs? I imagine the fee must be the same for both orgs.
Quote from: Court Jester on July 15, 2007, 10:21:30 PM
personally i think it's bullshit that the track organizations have to buy the air fences. it's like walmart making a guy in a wheelchair paint the handicap parking spaces before he goes in to shop.
That's only for the illegal alien in a wheelchair. They won't let an American do that.
Quote from: gonecrazy on July 15, 2007, 10:27:31 PM
The way I look at it If you dont like it dont go. goto blackhawk that weekend. Me personally, I dont even think about walls and what not..
The voices in my head blur anything out :ahhh:
I think about them, I just don't push it as hard in that area. That still doesn't mean I'm not going to crash there... You either want to race or not. All there is to it. People raced at RA prior to them taking out the Billy Mitchell bridge. That was just as dangerous.
Fact is there are problem spots pretty much at every track that could be addressed for motorcycles. It just isn't happening.
I remember sitting in the riders meeting at Gateway and someone (I think it was Super Dave) saying the airfence for the chicane was too far back. They didn't move it and sure enough someone ended up hitting the wall. If you can't even get them to move something so portable, I'm not too optimistic about them moving concrete.
Let's face it, at Gateway, they are not going to be able to move walls at the chicane. T1 however should be taken down, I don't see a good reason for it.
Here is the deal.
When developers build a track, in particular, ovals, they only concider the so called " primary" use of the facility. then add to that.
What is F__ked up about that is , they don't realize the truth to the matter.
Roundies are only held once or twice a year at that facility and the majority of the time is held by AMA, SCCA, BMW and the like on the road coarse. which Should be their "Primary" and Roundies "Secondary"...
Take a look at all of the tracks that are "DUAL PURPOSE", The developers are interested in the "View of the coarse" of the potential spectator, Not the racer.
Now look at the dedicated road coarses, Great tracks, POOR spectator viewing pleasure.
It would be great if we could have a track like Miller that had seats all over with plenty of "Viewing Pleasure".
Now;; What would work is if a track developer designed a road coarse first, then built the oval around it second.
Also, It would be great if a developer would seek the imput of racers first, then build it.
Quote from: Sig on July 15, 2007, 07:39:25 PM
So let's say you are out there not really pushing it in a race, maybe you are just racing to get in track time......
Who is to say somebody won't lay it down right in front of you or hit you from behind, or cut you off and cause you to wreck....etc etc etc.
Riding within your limits isn't going to keep you safe always.
like what happened to me at RA.. I got taken out in turn 8.. still nursing a re-cracked rib...
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 10:37:40 PM
Roundies are only held once or twice a year at that facility and the majority of the time is held by AMA, SCCA, BMW and the like on the road coarse. which Should be their "Primary" and Roundies "Secondary"...
Difference is, Nascar & ARCA nets more $$$ per event for the track more than likely. Look at the stands. Does a CCS, AMA, SCCA, PCA, IMSA event fill those stands like nascar or arca does? Not a chance.
Jester, one reason I can think of that race orgs (CCS) buys the airfence for BHF is to protect it from the car guys. A car hitting the air fence would destroy it. Its not designed to handle cars. Luckily the track owner of BHF IS a racer himself and does try to fix issues.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 15, 2007, 10:53:09 PM
Difference is, Nascar & ARCA nets more $$$ per event for the track more than likely. Look at the stands. Does a CCS, AMA, SCCA, PCA, IMSA event fill those stands like nascar or arca does? Not a chance.
One word; "ADVERTIZING"
Also; NASCAR is "FOR PROFIT" they have the funds to advertize.
To make money, you have to spend money, on ads to sell tickets to make money to advertize.. Catch 22...
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 11:00:38 PM
One word; "ADVERTIZING"
Also; NASCAR is "FOR PROFIT" they have the funds to advertize.
To make money, you have to spend money.
When CCE owned CCS they had the funds to advertise it. They just wouldnt. But yet they'd advertise their motocross events and monster truck events on their radio stations every weekend. Road racing in the US isnt as popular as oval racing. Personally I dont give a damn about nascar or IRL. Only time I go to oval events is the local stock car track and thats just because they are there having fun.
Alan Wilson had a great post on the WERA board a while back about track construction and how he's always limited in what he can do. He said the closest he's ever come to doing what he wanted was Barber because he wasn't restricted by money and he only had to make sacrifices due to land. Ironically it looks like they are coming back now and are going to purchase more land to make the track longer like he wanted it to start with.
I guess what I'm saying is a lot of time the original design gets compromised but I do think runoff for bikes has to be more paramount to a tracks design and not JUST if cars are safe. The problem you run into is that cars usually bring in a lot more money, just ask VIR.
You are both right.
First, You are not going to be popular if no-one knows about you.
Second, you have all those "Safety Nazis" screaming how "Dangerous " bikes are and should be banned, but no, keep dirt bikes, They're "Entertaining....
maybe next year they will remember all the fuss about Iowa and change venues although bikes piggie back with the cars so it may be up to the car guys
I watched the Rolex race from Iowa. They had an on board of a lap of the track. The track looked much more dangerous than Gateway. The problem was not just the oval. The track is quite small with a garage area and a track sharing the infield. Did not appear to have very much runoff room. MotoST used no bales of airfence on the oval. From what I saw, I would not race there.
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 12:02:02 AM
Any track can be safe or unsafe.
The biggest probs are the inexperienced street riders going over their abilities trying to make a race out of a track day.
If you ride SMART, you can handle any situation or track.
So are you saying Kracget and Higbee are inexperienced DUMB street riders riding over their head. I know Kracget personally and know of Higbee from my hometown and those 2 guys probably have more experience together than the rest of the field in that race other than Filice and Springsteen.
For those of you who don't know me - i was brian's teammate for the pas t two weekends. I just got off the phone with Steve and Brian had just woke up and was pissed saying that he wasn't going fast enough cause Filece was starting to gap him. Steve says he his normal self - just doesn't remember the actual crash.
Scotty727,
thanks for the update on Brian...great to hear he's doing ok.
anyone have any info on Shawn?
also...everyone please remember we have 2 fellow racers that went down hard......that's where our focus should be - make sure they are ok - and if needed - to be there for them how ever we can.
Some know Brian and Shawn much better than I or most of us do...but from watching them race in CCS & Moto-ST they are 2 of the top riders out there. My thoughts go out to both of them for a speedy recovery.
after that....then we can figure out Iowa Speedway and what can be done to get it set up to be safer - and if not - we can all make up our own minds to run there or not.
Shawn has a broken leg, broken pelvis, dislocated shoulder and possible broken collar bone. He's alert, but on meds, due for release later this week.
Great news about Brian.
has there been any kind of fund set up for Shawn? I know we have the Red Flag Fund....can we donate through that and it go directly to him?
I'm sure we could all chip in and help out...with injuries that severe he's going to need all the help he can.
Quote from: 123user on July 14, 2007, 11:20:05 PM
So... Parriott tries to do the right thing, and MotoST fines him? Now two riders are critically injured? Its obvious that MotoST is putting itself before the safety of its riders.
CCS doesn't need to be affiliated with an organization like that!!!
+1 ! !!!
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 12:47:04 AM
True.
But the same goes for a race as the street. You don't fly through the neigborhood do ya?
If it is TIGHT, SLOW DOWN.
Just because you are in a race does not nessisarily mean you have to go fast Everywere on the track.
No. But you should be able to go as fast as you and your bike are able to without having to worry about a WALL!
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 15, 2007, 09:07:03 PM
Dude;
You can "What-if" everything to Death.
If life scares you that much, stay in bed...
Oh BTW. Lay on your back, I don't want you to die of "SIDS"...
Not to be mean but, damn... Get over it. You can Not control Everything in life, Just live it and be HAPPY.
What?! You're right. Don't over-think something like racing a 400lb. machine at 100mph plus speeds with a little bit of plastic and leather for protection.
Noidly, most of your posts are pretty dumb. Not as dumb as the leader of Moto-ST who was telling the riders to "deal with it." I'm not sure if that was Edmondson or who but AMA has nothing to be concerned about. This organization is run equally as bad! Lol!
Quote from: mike_rbm on July 16, 2007, 12:56:01 PM
You should be able to go as fast as you and your bike are able to without having to worry about a WALL!
I guess that leaves Road Atlanta Out...
Quote from: PJ721 on July 16, 2007, 12:53:31 PM
has there been any kind of fund set up for Shawn? I know we have the Red Flag Fund....can we donate through that and it go directly to him?
You can donate directly to him through us as follows:
Check/Money Order to:
Red Flag Fund
W250 N7787 Hillside Ln
Sussex, WI 53089
PayPal to:
paypal@redflagfund.org
Credit Cards (MC/VIS/DISC/AMEX):
call us 262-246-8589 eves, or 262-993-5416 (Jeff's cell)
If you state that you wish your donation to go directly to any person, 100% of those funds (less CC processing fees or paypal fees) will go directly to that person until their needs are met.
Please be aware that any NAMED DONATION (i.e., "this donation is for Shawn Higbee") may not be tax deductable per new IRS guidelines. Check with your tax professional to be sure.
We are able to and prepared to help these guys. Our recent auction has given us a pretty solid base which we can use to help, so we will be helping them from the general fund. Of course, the more we get the more we can do.
Call or email me with any questions.
-Jeff
Quote from: Noidly1 on July 16, 2007, 02:08:13 PM
I guess that leaves Road Atlanta Out...
and Road America, Gateway, Topeka, Brainerd, and many many other tracks...
True, some tracks ARE safer for motorcycles than others. Race orgs have to make this determination, and riders also need to calculate their own level of risk. There are tracks which I personally will not race because the level of risk is higher than I can assume. People need to make that decision themselves.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 15, 2007, 11:10:02 PM
When CCE owned CCS they had the funds to advertise it. They just wouldnt. But yet they'd advertise their motocross events and monster truck events on their radio stations every weekend.
CCS races are still sportsman events. The attitude is that they are only for the entrant, not the spectator. The return on investing in CCS isn't there to see a real return. Arenacross and monster trucks...spectator driven.
Quote from: r1owner on July 15, 2007, 10:30:09 PMDo car orgs. rent the track more than motorcycle orgs? I imagine the fee must be the same for both orgs.
No, cars generally cost more. Why? The load that cars will put into a track will tear it up faster than a bike, for one. And a car will tear up barriers. More cost in the end.
QuoteCCS doesn't need to be affiliated with an organization like that!!!
Honestly, CCS, AHRMA, and most organizations have the ability to shut people up. Potentially, it's in each rule book. An organization can have you removed, license suspended. A track can even have one forceably removed from the track and told never to return.
Experiements happen.
The AMA raced in the Streets of Miami in 1990 and 1991 or so. AHRMA and the MRA raced the Streets of Steamboat. I raced there three times. I raced with AHRMA in the streets of Park City, Utah.
The AMA raced at Charlotte Motor Speedway. CCS raced at the Milwaukee Mile.
I imagine there may be some that have no idea who this Roger Edmonson is with MotoST, but that's another story. I can say that there are concerns from them. It's with great interest that I watch what happens in MotoST.
MotoST, in my eyes, is taking the opportunity to fund CCS with a little cash in buying some time within its schedule at some events. With the increased costs of putting on motorcycle racing events, this helps keep our entry fees down. They will eventually go up again and again and again, but this will help.
I got it...
For those of you, you know who you are, That want to be able to FLY around a track Without a care in the world and if you just Happen to go off coarse;;
Here you go.
Get your selves to gether, pool some money, and build a track with a 1000 foot run off piled 6 feet high with Cotton Candy to catch you and when you come to a Fluffy stop, you can eat your way back out.
Now quit whining, If you DON'T like the track, request the officials to make changes, and if they don't, DON'T go there...
BTW, I don't think anyone ever complained about ISLE of MANN!
You know the Risks. Either you accept them or you don't.
Well, yeah, it used to be on the World Championship calender, then it came off in the 70's. There were quite a few changes in the 70's in regards to road racing because the riders became vocal about stuff. A lot of tracks were street courses, or street based courses. Spa is one that was on the schedule through the 90's. Wayne Rainey's dad has a real interesting account of watching his son qualifying there in the rain in Wayne's book.
Reality is that Wayne got paralyzed because of something else. Generally, that is the way it is.
Iowa Speedway is generating the debate.
Higbee apparently had contact with another rider causing the crash. Ultimately, Shawn would be the one to give the best answers. Why he races, why he decided to race there, why he went as fast as he did?
Did Brian actually hit anything other than debris and the ground? I can't say, but that is the way it sounds.
Hey Noidly,
Pull your fucking head out, Dude. No one is saying there shouldn't be any risks associated with racing motorcycles, they're just saying there shouldn't be ridiculously unnecessary risks ... ie. walls perilously close to high speed corners, with no air fence, not even haybales or tire walls.
By your logic, no one should ever complain about any safety considerations whatsoever. So tell riddle me this, Einstein, what are all those pussies in MotoGP doing with all their cotton candy runoff? Why aren't they all racing the Isle of Man every weekend accepting the risks you so casually dismiss?
It's a simple question of economics, and until the money stops coming in there usually aren't safety improvements - in any game, motorycle or otherwise, and in truth, it's people like you who prolong the improvements by continueing to act as if unreasonably usafe tracks are just part of the deal.
If every track had ample runoff, there would still be serious injuries and deaths associated with motorsports, they just wouldn't be nearly as common or unnecessary.
So please tell me what the harm is in funnelling some porition of the money these sports generate into airfence and runoff?
NOTE:To anyone who agrees with this sentiment, now is a great time to donate to the Blackhawk Roadracing World Airfence Fund, to those who don't, now is a great time to quit wearing your seatbelt and/or helmet, because "you either accept the risks or you don't"
Quote from: Jeff on July 16, 2007, 02:13:36 PM
You can donate directly to him through us as follows:
Check/Money Order to:
Red Flag Fund
W250 N7787 Hillside Ln
Sussex, WI 53089
PayPal to:
paypal@redflagfund.org
Credit Cards (MC/VIS/DISC/AMEX):
call us 262-246-8589 eves, or 262-993-5416 (Jeff's cell)
If you state that you wish your donation to go directly to any person, 100% of those funds (less CC processing fees or paypal fees) will go directly to that person until their needs are met.
Please be aware that any NAMED DONATION (i.e., "this donation is for Shawn Higbee") may not be tax deductable per new IRS guidelines. Check with your tax professional to be sure.
We are able to and prepared to help these guys. Our recent auction has given us a pretty solid base which we can use to help, so we will be helping them from the general fund. Of course, the more we get the more we can do.
Call or email me with any questions.
-Jeff
Thanks Jeff...going to copy this over to the MOTO-ST board...
Quote from: Super Dave on July 16, 2007, 02:29:28 PM
No, cars generally cost more. Why? The load that cars will put into a track will tear it up faster than a bike, for one. And a car will tear up barriers. More cost in the end.
Blackhawk Farms does not charge more for cars than for motorcycles. I can't think of one single track that differentiates prices based on vehicle type.
Quote from: Court Jester on July 15, 2007, 10:21:30 PM
as long as the organizations keep renting the tracks, the track owners have no reason to make changes. the only way the track will change anything fast is if the organizations as a hole come to the agreement that they aren't going to use that track until the owners make changes.
personally i think it's bullshit that the track organizations have to buy the air fences. it's like walmart making a guy in a wheelchair paint the handicap parking spaces before he goes in to shop.
Now that's the best joke I've heard all day :D
Quite simply there is maybe one single track in the US that depends on bike racing. The rest could lose all of us and do just fine.
Quote from: Super Dave on July 16, 2007, 02:29:28 PM
No, cars generally cost more. Why? The load that cars will put into a track will tear it up faster than a bike, for one. And a car will tear up barriers. More cost in the end.
You're insane. They charge us as much as they charge the car groups. Most tracks will have a weekend price and a weekday price, that is the only difference I know of.
Quote from: Mongo on July 16, 2007, 04:28:39 PM
Now that's the best joke I've heard all day :D
Quite simply there is maybe one single track in the US that depends on bike racing. The rest could lose all of us and do just fine.
Maybe so, but when the fiscal year rolls to a close, they will see much lower profits and they will start to rethink things. it's not so much a matter of needing the money as it is wanting the money. I'm sure Gateway makes more than enough off the NASCAR and ARCA stuff to support itself for the year. but that doesn't mean they wouldn't care about losing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. someone always has to answer for lost profits.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
Hey Noidly,
Pull your fucking head out, Dude. No one is saying there shouldn't be any risks associated with racing motorcycles, they're just saying there shouldn't be ridiculously unnecessary risks ... ie. walls perilously close to high speed corners, with no air fence, not even haybales or tire walls.
By your logic, no one should ever complain about any safety considerations whatsoever.
Dear Mr. Sklossmonster;
I agree there shouldn't be any Unneccisary risks. I don't like those walls either. As I stated before, If there is a problem with the track, Ask the officials to make the changes and if they don't, Don't go to that track. There's your Economic impact.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
So tell riddle me this, Einstein, what are all those pussies in MotoGP doing with all their cotton candy runoff? Why aren't they all racing the Isle of Man every weekend accepting the risks you so casually dismiss?
Better tracks, more exposure, better economics for them and their Sponsors...
I don't Ever Dismiss risks. I only accept the ones I can handle.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
It's a simple question of economics, and until the money stops coming in there usually aren't safety improvements - in any game, motorycle or otherwise, and in truth, it's people like you who prolong the improvements by continueing to act as if unreasonably usafe tracks are just part of the deal.
I never said that was just Part of The Deal. Read from the begining.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
If every track had ample runoff, there would still be serious injuries and deaths associated with motorsports, they just wouldn't be nearly as common or unnecessary.
True. Agreed.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
So please tell me what the harm is in funnelling some porition of the money these sports generate into airfence and runoff?
Never said a word about it. Don't put words in my mouth. OR ANYTHING ELSE...
Please don't take what i say the wrong way. If the facility doesn't change, then you have either stop going to that place or quit racing.
Quote from: Mongo on July 16, 2007, 04:28:39 PM
Quite simply there is maybe one single track in the US that depends on bike racing. The rest could lose all of us and do just fine.
JenningsGP!!!
What do I win?!?
:)
Oh, and the reason car track days cost more is because there are less vehicles on the track at any given time. The price to rent the track is static.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
they're just saying there shouldn't be ridiculously unnecessary risks ... ie. walls perilously close to high speed corners, with no air fence, not even haybales or tire walls, competitors knowingly racing with belly pans full of water...
you left that one out...
:kicknuts:
couldnt resist... carry on.
Quote from: Court Jester on July 16, 2007, 04:56:29 PMsomeone always has to answer for lost profits.
Well, yes, exactly.
Every day of unrented opportunity is inventory that isn't being sold. The development of car and motorcycle track days and schools have fueled a lot of the track building; tracks can sell "inventory" to additional programs. Those programs help develop bigger markets, potentially, that further fuel the need to buy the track's inventory.
I got the call late Tuesday night - It was Steve(the owner of SpeedWerks)... He asked me if I would be able to make it out to Iowa for the second to last round of Moto-ST... I told him I would be out in Des Mines Wednesday night for the promoter practice on Thursday.... I drove out straight from work on Wednesday and stayed at my buddies house - (the racing Dentist - Dr.Jeffery Purk)....
When we got to the track on Thursday afternoon - I was surprised at how nice the facility looked from the outsde.... Landscaping and stones - really nice.... We made out way into the pits and the first thing I noticed was how small the Moto-St pits were - I suppose we didn't need anymore room then they gave us - cause we all fit just fine... On the other hand - the car guys all had semi's and took up allot of room - so they got about four times more space then us and got actual garages.. I met with my Moto-ST mechanic Dave and we got all signed up and got the bike ready to go... My teammate Brian Kcraget wasn't going to be able to make it out till late Friday night and I was going to have to do all of the set-up work on the bike until he got his chance to ride Saturday morning... I took a quick look at the banking and got my gear on...
The first lap is always led by a pace car- so that no one exceeds their own ability on the out lap... It also gives us a chance to see which direction the track goes.. Man we sure needed the guided tour - coming of the banking down what I call the back straight - into the infield wasn't really marked well and unless you knew that you were supposed to turn left at Turn 2 - you cold just keep going straight and cut to the final turn in the infield... The first couple laps at speed I atempet to approach the banking the same way I would at Daytona - tucked and wide open... Man was I wrong - It was more like get the bike as close to the apron as possible - knee on the apron and roll out of the throttle until about mid turn - then wide open again....The banking is a much tighter radius then Daytona - so it really abuses the front tire - you also get the sensation that the front tire is pushing up toward the wall.... The infield accounts for about .3 of the 1.3 mile course - so it is short,quick and busy... A decreasing radius left - follower by by another tight constant lean left (when done correctly you apex late and wide for the first left and that sets you up to combine the two corners into one turn).... Then you throw the bike to the right and side and the front tire pushes about two foot (due to the design of the track only having two right hand turns and the right side of the tires having no heat) a short shoot into a double apex(horseshoe) right hander - followed by a bit longer short shoot into the final infield turn(another tight left) that takes you onto the front straight - which is banked because it is part of the oval......I got to the point on Friday and Saturday that I could hold the bike wide open in 5th entering the banking and only breath the throttle long enough to get the bike turned down toward the apron while I had my knee down - at that point I would twist the throttle the little bit that was left and tuck in while bringing me knee back to the tank.... I would drive the bike towards the outside wall and down the ever slight down grade toward turn 1 left hander - while catching 6th gear and then grabbing 4 backshifts for Turn2.. My best time the first day - 51.6 seconds.... Wow - this was going to make for a long 3 hour race...
Friday practice was in the dat of the afternoon and in the hour and ten minutes I did roughly 68 laps - best time on Friday - 50.601... The Pair of Nines Kasasaki of Jimmy Filece and Jay Springsteen was less then .2 faster with a 50.416.... Man can those two guys ride!!!! That evening Bian and the team owner Steve Long showed up - and watched some of the Rolex car races..... Saturday was going to be an early start and the plan was to let Brian run the whole practice by himself so he could get as much track time as possible - but the rules state that the rider that is going to start the race must start the practice behind the pace car... So I suited up and started explaining the track to Brian... I went out and did the two laps behind the pace car and then pulled in and handed the bike of to Brian.....He rode the remaining time of the 45 minute session - his best time a 50.8... Brian picks up tracks quickly - and that's what we needed to stay competitive with the Kawasaki... We decided on raising the front of the bike up 4mm to take some of the weight of the front tire on the banking - and we mounted up a new set of tires for the race...We decided on a SUPER EXTRA hard rear so that it would last the whole race ( I would have opted to stay with the Medium compound we were practicing on and dirt track the bike towards the end of the race since I tend to set my fastest laps when the tires start to go away and the bike slides easier).... But we decided to go with the hard - not a problem with me - i'm willing to ride anything - but unfortunately I hadn't ridden on one of the hards yet and had no idea how it was going to act.... We took off and went out to get some lunch - and tried to kill 3 hours before the autograph session.....I have never seen a lone so long for autographs... All of the teams sat inside this massive square of tables - and the fans could go down the line and get everyones autograph or pick and choose.... We were sat right next to our main competition - Kawi... It was a good time and Gary Nixon was the star of the show for sure... Ater over an hour of talking with fans and signing autoghaprhs - they had to cut off the line so that we could get back to our pits to change and get ready... It was a good thing though - cause we ran out of posters to sign....
There were tons of fans - and I was surprised to see that not only were the stands pretty well filled - but the amount of fans that were on top of their motorhomes and lining the fence were amazing..... We did rider introductions on a big stage right in front of the grandstands and got ready for our parade laps...We did one sighting lap and then went back to our staring areas - that was followed by two warm up laps behind the pace car - and then the start of the race.....I was lined up right behind Jimmy Filece and managed to pass him on lap 3 or so - the two of us went back and forth for about the first 60 laps or so.... Then two things happened - Our bike started dropping out of gear and we ran into lapped traffic - so little ol' Jimmy started pulling a gap on me... Unfortunatly my buddy Scott Harwood tucked the front in turn 1 and that brought out the pace car..... Our gas light was on for a couple laps prior - so I decided it was time to come in for a rider change....I pulled in and as the guys were fueling the bike (all of 4 seconds) I told Brian that the rear tire had never really come in and that it was difficult to get on the gas.... Brian took off and I took a seat - The track had live timing and scoring along with a loce video feed - so I looked at my time and it said that my best time was a 50.24.... WOW - I went faster in the race on a tire that had less grip and didn't allow me to get on the gas as soon or as hard as I would have liked... I think it had a lot to do with basically leaving the bike WFO around the entire banking... Once again Filece had gone .02 faster then me... I'm gonna say it's cause I am 45-50 pounds heavier then him :)
Because we were under a pace car caution - Kawi managed to somehow get shuffled right behind Brian and with it only being his second time on the track - Jay Springsteen got around him in short order.... But Brian never gave up and he managed to keep that green bike with within eyesight - he started out at 52's then 51's then got a couple 50's - all while working through traffic... Brian put in a good 80 laps - and our plan was that when I got on the bike - since I was rested and ready to slide the bike around a bit - I was going to try to put down some times that would catch us back up to Kawi - plus they had to pit yet..... We never got to that point - I had all my gear on and as I watched for Brian to come by on his last lap - I saw Shawn Higbee and a BMW come by and go into the banking pretty close to each other... No more then 5 seconds behind those guys was Brian - and just as he passed the start finish line the waving yellow came out... I didn't think much of it - as most of us wouldn't - espically if your all geared up and ready to go.... But when I saw the red flag come out and I started asking the officals if we could fuel the bike and make a rider change.... When Brian didn't come back into the hot pit - I knew something was wrong - and as I turned I saw a massive cloud of black smoke on the far side of the banking.... Steve and I hopped on the pit bike and flew over toward the accident... It sounds like what happened was the BMW that was down low on the banking bumped into Higbee and he hit the outside wall - the bike hit the ground and it went up in flames - Shawn spent the night in surgery fixing broken bones - but it sounds like he'll pull through.... Brian somehow hit some piece of the bike or something and was ejected over the front of the bike... He hit his head on the ground pretty hard .... They life flighted him to the hospital and as I was frantically trying to get out of the track to get to the hospital - I was wanted up at the award ceremony... Because the race was called final - we ended up 2nd - and as soon as got the bike from post race tech we headed find Brian.....
That was about 11:30pm Saturday night - I just got the call from Steve this morning saying that Brian had woke up this morning and that other then a couple bruises - he's his normal self again....Which made me feel allot better - One of the first things he said was "I wasn't going fast enough - Felice was starting to pull from me"... He doesn't remember the crash itself - but sometimes it's better that way.... I told Steve to tell Brian that we only have about three months until Daytona - and that we can't let Kawi just walk away with the championship.... I gotta check - but at this point I think the team stands a real shot at taking the overall....Hopefully everything comes together and we'll be standing at the top of the podium after the Daytona 8 hour....
Here's to Brian Kcraget and Shawn Higbee - You guys will pull through just fine......
Quote from: r1owner on July 15, 2007, 10:34:35 PM
I think about them, I just don't push it as hard in that area. That still doesn't mean I'm not going to crash there... You either want to race or not. All there is to it. People raced at RA prior to them taking out the Billy Mitchell bridge. That was just as dangerous.
Fact is there are problem spots pretty much at every track that could be addressed for motorcycles. It just isn't happening.
I remember sitting in the riders meeting at Gateway and someone (I think it was Super Dave) saying the airfence for the chicane was too far back. They didn't move it and sure enough someone ended up hitting the wall. If you can't even get them to move something so portable, I'm not too optimistic about them moving concrete.
Let's face it, at Gateway, they are not going to be able to move walls at the chicane. T1 however should be taken down, I don't see a good reason for it.
I dont know if you have ever been to a nascar event at gateway, but the pits run all the way down to the end of that wall, and to tell you the truth Gateway could care less about what we think of the track, they only really give a shit about the cars, we are just small potatoes.
my buddy Chris boy called me on the way back to fl and basically called it that away i think they got 4th in there class I will call him now(since they're driving all night)and let them know about Brian and Shawn they were real concerned about Brian .to me the official version of Brian's crash kinda drags him through the mud they said in RW that he ignored the yellow and the pace car but like you, Chris says there was no time for him to see the yellow much less the pace car .sounds like someone tried to put a spin on it. Chris did say the place was full of spectators but that the car guy's did not like the track either. every series has a track that is unliked and since this track is new no one new what to expect.and once you spend the money to run a series and spend the money to drive all the way there you force your self into running. now if Shawn had not crashed the attempt to boycott would have looked unfounded.but with a high fan turn out I bet they race there again next year.we all complain about dangerous tracks but what about our mecca Daytona .it's killed a bunch of us but i'm going anyway(it's killed alot of stock car guys too) lemmings.
Great post Scotty727.
Quote from: Court Jester on July 16, 2007, 04:56:29 PM
Maybe so, but when the fiscal year rolls to a close, they will see much lower profits and they will start to rethink things. it's not so much a matter of needing the money as it is wanting the money. I'm sure Gateway makes more than enough off the NASCAR and ARCA stuff to support itself for the year. but that doesn't mean they wouldn't care about losing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. someone always has to answer for lost profits.
But they don't make that off of motorcycle dates - trackdays or races, so they rent the track out to Petty for his stuff or someone testing or whatever and they make the same profit.
Quote from: Sig on July 16, 2007, 05:33:04 PM
JenningsGP!!!
What do I win?!?
:)
Actually there are two the more I think of it - Talladega is that way too although they have karts and some solo car events.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on July 16, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
they're just saying there shouldn't be ridiculously unnecessary risks ... ie. walls perilously close to high speed corners, with no air fence, not even haybales or tire walls, competitors knowingly racing with belly pans full of water...
Quote from: tstruyk on July 16, 2007, 05:41:09 PM
you left that one out...
:kicknuts:
couldnt resist... carry on.
DOH!
Nice job Scotty.... hopefully Brian will come away with no long term effects....
So, what's the net impact of all this? Anyone out there who's decided they're NOT riding the CCS GP/TrackAddix Iowa Speedway date?
There's a NESBA event there the weekend prior that I'm going to checkout to see for myself what to think of the track. I'm torn as the track is only 100 miles from home, but it's the same weekend as the MW region BHF event. In spite of it's shortcomings, it sounds like BHF would be the much safer venue.
So here I am, broken collarbone mending from RA, and have already swung from "done racing" thoughts during the crash to considering how to justify racing at what is probably the most dangerous venue on the calendar.
DOH!
Quote from: Sklossmonster on Yesterday at 02:39:49 pm
they're just saying there shouldn't be ridiculously unnecessary risks ... ie. walls perilously close to high speed corners, with no air fence, not even haybales or tire walls, competitors knowingly racing with belly pans full of water...
Quote from: tstruyk on Yesterday at 04:41:09 pm
you left that one out...
kicknuts
couldnt resist... carry on.
DOH!
Yeah.
Racing in the rain, belly pan full of water. engine leaks, oil floats on water, runs out back.
Woah Horsie... HeHe
Anybody wanna play Slip-n-Slide? Yee-ha
actually it was a joke at marshall's expense...
he had water overflow into his radiator that was noticed by his crew chief yet he went out anyway... not from a wet track. he fell down. lesson learned I imagine.
Some 30 or 40 years ago guys like Dick Mann and King Kenny were boycotting events, taking fines and gag orders from the AMA, but that was all those years ago.
If the track won't even put up haybales or tires it's a pretty moot debate, outside it being discussed within the topic of forming a racer's union for safety concerns. In reading the piece at RRW.com Parriot's saying that T1 is 140mph with a puck down. Edmonson says it's an 80 mph turn. Can anybody here clarify this discrepancy of huge proportions? Edmonson also says it is within Moto ST's beliefs that any team can pull out per safety concerns, but then fines them, initially, $5800? What a message.
:pop:
Quote from: 61Ex on July 17, 2007, 03:28:24 PM
Some 30 or 40 years ago guys like Dick Mann and King Kenny were boycotting events, taking fines and gag orders from the AMA, but that was all those years ago.
If the track won't even put up haybales or tires it's a pretty moot debate, outside it being discussed within the topic of forming a racer's union for safety concerns. In reading the piece at RRW.com Parriot's saying that T1 is 140mph with a puck down. Edmonson says it's an 80 mph turn. Can anybody here clarify this discrepancy of huge proportions? Edmonson also says it is within Moto ST's beliefs that any team can pull out per safety concerns, but then fines them, initially, $5800? What a message.
:pop:
good point on the legends...
from what I hear the track is listening to the concerns... time will tell but at least on the surface things look to change in the future.
Not to say that it would happen, but if a track has been told from several people and organizations that something is unsafe and the track fails to fix (or at least attempt to fix) the problem, someone is threatened with a fine for pulling out, they decide to race and end up getting injured, there could be a very big ugly law suit to follow.
I couldn't make one of my employees do something that they said wasn't safe. I'm not about to try to make them. And I couldn't allow any repercussions for them refusing of grounds of safety.
We all sign papers and we all know the risks. But from a legal stand point; the track is ultimately responsible and if they make no effort then the liability is theirs. Not to mention the pact that is a sign of their piss poor moral/business ethic.
And even if a person didn't win in court, a good lawyer could rake the involved organization through the coals as well. In the end it would hurt all racers/riders, at all track, just because an organization decided to go with a track that clearly didn't care.
Quote from: Court Jester on July 17, 2007, 06:13:59 PM
Not to say that it would happen, but if a track has been told from several people and organizations that something is unsafe and the track fails to fix (or at least attempt to fix) the problem, someone is threatened with a fine for pulling out, they decide to race and end up getting injured, there could be a very big ugly law suit to follow.
I couldn't make one of my employees do something that they said wasn't safe. I'm not about to try to make them. And I couldn't allow any repercussions for them refusing of grounds of safety.
We all sign papers and we all know the risks. But from a legal stand point; the track is ultimately responsible and if they make no effort then the liability is theirs. Not to mention the pact that is a sign of their piss poor moral/business ethic.
And even if a person didn't win in court, a good lawyer could rake the involved organization through the coals as well. In the end it would hurt all racers/riders, at all track, just because an organization decided to go with a track that clearly didn't care.
That won't happen. The only way you could sue is if they knew there was a hole in the pavement that was large enough for you and your bike to go down in and they covered it up with straw and painted it black. You aren't going to win shit for wall being where it was originally placed.
Yeah ya could. if the complnts were made. It would take a retard to push it, but it could fly.
Quote from: tstruyk on July 17, 2007, 04:50:42 PM
good point on the legends...
from what I hear the track is listening to the concerns... time will tell but at least on the surface things look to change in the future.
Right. I guess it's a hot button issue when it comes to $$$, but who's responsible for the safety, or lack thereof, when it comes to a layout's design flaws for certain racing such as the case of Iowa Speedway and bikes?
The track?
The series' organizers?
The racers?
We all sign the waivers of liability, and know that this sport is inherently deadly by the nature of these speeds and circumstances. However, I can't disregard the stated observation in the RRW article that one of the San Jose BMW guys (parriot?) who started the attempted boycott DOES run the Isle of Mann?! Is the Iowa track THAT bad?
Anyway, safety, safety, safety, oops and BIG fines.
I guess it's better than the 24 guys killed in a 2 year period at Ascot!!
The series' organizers are ultimately responsible!
They viewed the property and track and made a decision to hold an event there. Don't know if that decision is based on exposure of the series or financial gain (or some mix of those) but many of the racers showed up from great distances to then see how unsafe that track is. The big level teams can afford to complain, get fined and miss an event but the poor privateer shrugs their shoulders and rolls the dice.
Actually no, you the rider make the final decision to fire up your bike and ride the track. You are ultimately responsible and all of us orgs will follow along if you don't ride.
Why do people continually look for someone to blame and hold responsible? You wanna know who has the responsibility? Visit wal-mart and pick up a mirror, they're cheap and hold the answer...
It's not a matter of blame. It's a matter of improving safety.
If the configuration is dangerous enough for racers who are experienced enough with dangerous layouts, such as the IOMTT, have made an effort to boycott the venue for safety reasons, then it's a valid discussion. Then there's the other tracks out there where safety changes have been requested, year in and year out, with no action...?
Please spare us the "victimology" speech about always looking elsewhere to lay blame when discussing track changes for safety's sake. I agree with the point that John Ulrich prints in RRW per ..."professional victimologists..." , but the parrots who use his thoughts as their own? Pfft...
There's obviously several differing opinions here about how the changes *might* be made and exactly *who* is responsible to see those changes through. Actually keeping it a constructive discussion is another matter I guess.
A "Get well" to those racers who were injured. Hopefully the monies we donated to the fund gets their way(s).
It's up to the track to make the changes if they want to or can. It's up to the orgs to schedule or not based on their view as to it being safe enough. Then it's up to the riders to choose to race there or not.
i'm not saying it's right. i wouldn't file suit on anyone over something like that. but it could happen and it may be ten years down the road, but sooner or later, it likely will.
12 million for spilling coffee on your own lap because of your own mistake says what the chances are.
Oh, don't worry, it already happens. No need to wait.
Quote from: Mongo on July 18, 2007, 07:50:40 PM
It's up to the track to make the changes if they want to or can. It's up to the orgs to schedule or not based on their view as to it being safe enough. Then it's up to the riders to choose to race there or not.
OK, thanks Sean. Any suggestions, short of boycotts, for making safety changes happen? I think everybody would rather race, but there's some safety changes that gotta happen-even if it's in a 2-3 year window.
Put it in writing and send it to the sanctioning body. Then it's up to them to deal with the track one way or another. You could send them to the track too but that tends to put the sanctioning body in a bind depending on the letters, it's not that hard for a track to just not offer us dates and some will do it over letters that they feel are accusing them of being dangerous.
isn't a track school out in willow springs being sued on behalf of a rider? my friend was named in a suit when a rider was killed at moroso. it's not the riders they know the risk it's their families that don't understand and don't believe in the risk.my wife loves racing but believes that many of the risks can and should be lowered. if something would happen i'm not sure she would not find fault.
As one of the racers that were injured at Iowa, I'd like to say a few things..........
:wtf:
Racing motorcycles is a professional sport, which most of all dictates a professional attitude with professional decisions.
This sport is not easy, nor is it for the faint of heart... otherwise everyone would do it. There are inherent risks that come with the territory and it seems like most of you haven't figured this out yet. I have found that 99% of the people that stand around all weekend and bitch about the track are the slow guys-- the glorified track day squids that don't understand what it takes to compete at the next level. So bitch away and let the professionals do what we do. Bitch to your hottie girfriends now, 'cause if you ever find the maturity and dedication to be fast at ANY venue, they won't be around for long. AND that's because it takes commitment and sacrifice that, suprisingly enough, takes more than a shiney bike and fancy leathers.
True professionals assess risk, maximize the opportunities a track has to offer, and use their brain to race smartly and competitively. They DO NOT cry about "what if's" and "end-around" a racing org that's trying to change the face of American road racing.
SO, as I sit here with facial contusions, a hole in my elbow, bruised ribs, bruised lungs, a mild concussion, and a sprained knee......
ROGER EDMONDSON HAS OUR FULL SUPPORT AT EVERY VENUE. BECAUSE WE ARE RACERS, AND DEALING WITH THE GOOD AND BAD IS WHAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO DO.
:preachon: off
Quote from: Team SKS Racing on July 20, 2007, 09:43:33 PM
As one of the racers that were injured at Iowa, I'd like to say a few things..........
:wtf:
Racing motorcycles is a professional sport, which most of all dictates a professional attitude with professional decisions.
This sport is not easy, nor is it for the faint of heart... otherwise everyone would do it. There are inherent risks that come with the territory and it seems like most of you haven't figured this out yet. I have found that 99% of the people that stand around all weekend and bitch about the track are the slow guys-- the glorified track day squids that don't understand what it takes to compete at the next level. So bitch away and let the professionals do what we do. Bitch to your hottie girfriends now, 'cause if you ever find the maturity and dedication to be fast at ANY venue, they won't be around for long. AND that's because it takes commitment and sacrifice that, suprisingly enough, takes more than a shiney bike and fancy leathers.
True professionals assess risk, maximize the opportunities a track has to offer, and use their brain to race smartly and competitively. They DO NOT cry about "what if's" and "end-around" a racing org that's trying to change the face of American road racing.
SO, as I sit here with facial contusions, a hole in my elbow, bruised ribs, bruised lungs, a mild concussion, and a sprained knee......
ROGER EDMONDSON HAS OUR FULL SUPPORT AT EVERY VENUE. BECAUSE WE ARE RACERS, AND DEALING WITH THE GOOD AND BAD IS WHAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO DO.
:preachon: off
Amen brother - and how about our late night adventures getting lost in Desss Moinessss???? Good times man - Hope you heal up and see you soon.... Lata
agreed, racing is not for the faint of heat. But the bottom line is, most of us do it for "fun" not a profession. For most newer racers, until you have the "big one" you don't realize how dangerous the sport can be. When I first raced at Gateway, I thought it was awesome. I didn't understand that crashing really hurts and what walls did to motorcycles. Most of us aren't doing this for a living, the rest of us do it for fun. I firmly believe it is up to the experienced racers who have been in the sport for awhile to speak our minds and make all the newer people aware of the dangers to better inform them of the potential risks of certain tracks. I am amazed that when I talk with new racers, they don't even see walls. While I wish it wasn't in the back of my mind, I'm glad it is to keep me alive.
Bottom line... I totally agree you and only you decide to race. If something bad happens, its because YOU made the decision to RACE. YOU KNOW the risks, don't blame brakes, other rider etc... because you got hurt. If the track is considered dangerous by the "expert" riders don't race!! Everything has it's risks. It's up to you to determine if you are willing to operate within those "risks"
Quote from: Team SKS Racing on July 20, 2007, 09:43:33 PM
As one of the racers that were injured at Iowa, I'd like to say a few things..........
:wtf:
Racing motorcycles is a professional sport, which most of all dictates a professional attitude with professional decisions.
This sport is not easy, nor is it for the faint of heart... otherwise everyone would do it. There are inherent risks that come with the territory and it seems like most of you haven't figured this out yet. I have found that 99% of the people that stand around all weekend and bitch about the track are the slow guys-- the glorified track day squids that don't understand what it takes to compete at the next level. So bitch away and let the professionals do what we do. Bitch to your hottie girfriends now, 'cause if you ever find the maturity and dedication to be fast at ANY venue, they won't be around for long. AND that's because it takes commitment and sacrifice that, suprisingly enough, takes more than a shiney bike and fancy leathers.
True professionals assess risk, maximize the opportunities a track has to offer, and use their brain to race smartly and competitively. They DO NOT cry about "what if's" and "end-around" a racing org that's trying to change the face of American road racing.
SO, as I sit here with facial contusions, a hole in my elbow, bruised ribs, bruised lungs, a mild concussion, and a sprained knee......
ROGER EDMONDSON HAS OUR FULL SUPPORT AT EVERY VENUE. BECAUSE WE ARE RACERS, AND DEALING WITH THE GOOD AND BAD IS WHAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO DO.
:preachon: off
Bottom line, if you don't think it's safe, don't race.
That being said, your saying that you have to be a profesional racer to complain? You have to be a profesional racer to be injured or killed? San Jose BMW are just track day squids for protesting? Just wondering.
Thanks Scotty Ryan, and especially my team-mate Scott Harwood for your posts. To answer an earlier post: Nascar 1 & 2 are fifth-gear pinned, knee down, as Scott and Scotty can verify. I,m guessing with gearing that that's somewhere in the 120 mph range. Second Parriot was NOT fined for deciding not to race. He was fined for trying to organize a rider's boycott. This was made perfectly clear at an unscheduled impromptu meeting called by Roger Edmonson himself. At this meeting Roger sincerely expressed his respect for any rider's decision not to race at a venue where he judged the risk to high. But he firmly stressed that organizing a boycott crossed the line. It's tantamount to taking a shit on the whole series. When you consider what the local community had invested in the speedway, what we teams have invested in the series, and what MOTO-ST and their sponsors have invested in hard work and cash, a boycott would have dealt a crippling blow to the prestige and credibility of the series. As it was, Roger told us at the meeting, that a track-promoter had traveled 800 miles to meet with Roger. He was interested in hosting an event and posting prize money. With the ongoing rumors of a boycott he was getting cold feet. For those of you who were not there, it is important for you to understand that although we (MOTO-ST competitors) were there with both the Rolex GT and Daytona Prototypes, some teams with multi-million dollar budgets and some drivers with F1 experience, WE WERE THE FEATURE SHOW. As such we were treated to a pre-race autograph session where there were so many people waiting in line they had to eventually close it off. The AMA would be envious of that line of fans.
Perhaps you can begin to see what was at stake. Yes the track is dangerous. Nonetheless almost everyone of us personally decided to assume this risk, with the new prestige of our series as the featured event as a large factor in our decision.
Is Roger Edmonson perfect? No. But he is forthright, upstanding, visionary, extremely well-spoken, and inspirational. (Scott Harwood commented to me how moved he was by Roger's speech at the meeting.) We are damned lucky to have someone with his class, commitment, and charisma behind this new series.
By the way, according to RW, Parriot has apologized and his fine was negotiated in half. Note also that all of the fine was to be paid , by Roger's request, to a children's charity (Newman's Whole-in-the-wall Gang.)
I hope that those of you who were beginning to see MOTO-ST as an evil organization can begin to see things differently. It is an organization with great potential, being led by an accomplished visionary through first year growing pains. I, like Scott Harwood, am firmly supportive of Roger Edmonson. I'd also like to thank all the Canadians from PMP for being simply wonderful to work with regarding tech and the running of the races.
John Foster, Entrant:
#60 Team Ducati Indianoplis
#60 Team Mid-Illini Motorsports
P.S. Harwood, heal quickly brother!
I don't consider the series or Roger evil .I had planned participating this summer until my injury and hope to next year It's a series that a club guy can do on a moderate budget (compared to AMA)I think it's great that it gets the press it does and I wish it would get some TV time.and every series has a track that is perceived more dangerous than the others I don't think there's any correlation between safe tracks , unsafe tracks and the injury rate I seem to get hurt worse at the (safe) tracks because I push harder.and I am not very lucky. seems they are all unsafe and Iowa was just untested. But as usual the thread drifted of to generalizations and so have I . love those darvasets
as an FYI...every event of the 2007 MOTO-ST series has been recorded by SPEED and will be shown in the fourth quarter of this year.
Once race to go...Daytona @ the ROC...under the lights....pretty cool
that is cool. it's nice to see the sport turning more and more heads
From this map it looks like they have access to using more of the track than they did. Anyone know why those corners weren't used?
which turns are you referring to? the layout for both pics is the same...are you looking at what could be called a road course inside the oval? it's REALLY close to the pit wall and not very wide at all..would make for some really slow lap times
that's great Paul I only hope that the series doesn't turn into a factory effort and leave the privateer behind. but you know what TV does.of course a little ducati money wouldn't hurt would it.
Quote from: PJ721 on July 25, 2007, 05:32:53 PM
which turns are you referring to? the layout for both pics is the same...are you looking at what could be called a road course inside the oval? it's REALLY close to the pit wall and not very wide at all..would make for some really slow lap times
the section at the top right I can't tell what its by in the picture
this gives a better look of the track...
http://www.iowaspeedway.com/pdfs/SpeedwayMap.pdf
(http://www.iowaspeedway.com/pdfs/SpeedwayMap.pdf)
basically it's just a section down below the yellow line on the oval..
guess they could have used cones or haybales/airfence to make a bit of a chicane to slow the speeds down going in to and out of T2 - not sure how that would work either....would have to start the chicane on the banking?
saw the iowa race tonight where higbee hit the wall and his buell caught fire. looked like he bounced off the wall hard. how did him and the other rider turnout?
They are both back to riding - Shawn ended up breaking a bunch of bones - but is getting close to 100%... The other rider was my team mate - Brian Kcraget - He was actually the one that got air lifted - they put him into a medically induced coma for a few days - but he back to being himself again.... Actually if you get a chance to watch the next round - which is the Daytona 8 hour final - Should be aired January 7th - both riders competed.... Our team consisting of Brian Kcraget, Hawk Mazzotta and myself won the ST class - That was a nail biter - it almost came down to the last lap.... But it was a good team effort....
I just saw the iowa race last night. that was one serious flop into the wall. made my knees buckle just watching it. glad to hear he's doing okay though.
IMO, Shawn might tell you he's close to 100%, but he's not. I have a feeling it might take him another few months to get to 95%. He could still use a few more pounds.
He had a broken pelvis, broken leg, separated shoulder on one side, and broken collar bone on the other. Shawn's recovery to the point where he could ride was nothing short of stunning. He has determination like nothing I've ever seen.
Too bad it takes an incident like Shawn's to prove a point.
Why do we pay to race at places where we can smash into walls and guard rails by design? Shawn & Larry are fine examples of what can happen when we do.
Riders should never have been put on that track as it was! I watched it the other night and was horrified at that turn with no protection. To me it bordered on criminal and the riders should have walked out. It was a bullshit deal.That's all I'm saying, no discussion.
Gordy, what do you know? You have only been involved in racing since the wheel was invented! :biggrin: :lmao:
Seriously, Iowa was no laughing matter, and could have ended the careers of some damn fine racers.
Could have ended more than just their careers.
Yeah, but I try not to think about that too hard.
What little I do know, knows I wouldn't have put a team on that track.
And I would have walked out, as I believe one team had the balls to do.
It's an unsafe track; but you had racers railing against the folks complaining about safety, calling them "whiners" and worse. One even made press releases admonishing the quitters for trying to let down the Iowa community surrounding the track.
You had a racer saying the most dangerous corner on the track is WFO with a knee down at around 140. While Edmonson was quoted as saying that was an 80 mph corner. I'm sure it could be an 80 mph corner if you weren't planning on a podium or you wanted to get asspacked. Protect the profits and not the racers' safety. As profit margins are more closely magnified the less safety there is involved. Unless, of course, you're in the hands of the Midwest Safety Crew. :biggrin:
You bring up a good point Todd. Who did they get to work the corners for that race?
I doubt that it was anyone who had worked motorcycles before. Especially since it was a combined race weekend - cars & bikes. If it was someone with bike experience it would be interesting to hear their take on this. Every cornerworker I've ever known is as much of an advocate for racer safety as the riders themselves.
There's a resaon for that..........it's not fun dealing with broken bodies.
So go ahead and call me a whiner but I'd rather be safe than sorry. How does the old saying go? "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". It's a gamble out there in every race, no matter how good you are. Why take chances on a bad track? Edmondson is not out there racing. All he has on the line is money, not his body.