Wow, somebody get this guys firearms! ;D
Seriously though, it's not fair to generalize an entire nationality and say you're glad you don't have Iraqie neighbors. I don't think shooting a person that is surrendering, or looks helpless is the answer. And I don't think they deserve to die.
[edit 2/10]
Sorry, I didn't start this thread. the original post has been deleted....
KILL EM' ALL , let god ( or ala as they call it) sort em' out. And if France has a problem with it, Bomb there ass too. Who the hell is France anyway. They have the economy on South Africa and the population of Ethiopia. If it wasn't for us they would all have nazi emblems on there head. I'm with you 100% on this one BaltoBuell >:(
Dude, get a grip. What network did you see this tv show on? I was there and I never heard about this surrender scenario you describe. Go ahead and shoot a surrendering enemy. Hope nobody witnesses it because that's a good way to get hard time in Leavenworth. And by the way, there are no weeds in southern Iraq, which is where most of the fighting took place.
let's call them out and hustle them for their lids.
'r'dawg
Sorry about the post, I should never have used this forum to vent. But after seeing the show I couldn't sleep. And yes there must be weeds somewhere, as the helicopter pilot was the one that was being lured into a sence of security with white flags and reported being fired upon by "troops in the weeds". Did you notice that the "troops" running from Kawait that were cut off and bombed, in the cars with the dead Iracis were childrens toys and houshold items. Think what you want, but a soldier that goes into a home, rapes a woman and then steals her kids toys is a sick, sick, excuse for a human.
Apoligies again for starting this thread, I hope it goes away quick.
QuoteSorry about the post, I should never have used this forum to vent Apoligies again for starting this thread, I hope it goes away quick.
AHHH.....,
speak your mind.....
it's happened before.... ::)
Ice -
Sometimes in the heat of the emotion, spelling is not always the top priority. Baltobuell has been on this BBS for quite sometime and is not a moron. If he was, he would have not apologized for his ealier post.
Dawn :)
FYI - - If anyone would like to delete a post that they have typed, use the 'Remove' link on the top right of the posting.
Dawn ;)
I know this topic can get someone quite emotional, although we should be more informed, sometimes, when making judgement again another country and its people.
Iraq and its people are not quite to blame, only Saddam. Most people in Iraq care about food on their tables and other necessities, they are not involved, nor ever was, in the weapons of mass destruction. If they had nuclear materials, they would try to use it to make a power plant. Its only the crazy dictator that wants to have weapons.
Remember, we lost about 150 soldiers in the gulf war, a lot of them due to friendly fire. Iraq lost what, thens of thousands. Did you think they had a choice in who they go to war with? either you get shot by the enemy or you get shot by your own government...
Don't always believe the media's portral of a foreign country. It's mostly propaganda, even here, in this society, sad to say.
Thanks Dawn, I didn't know I could do that or it would have been done yesterday.
QuoteNo wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of morons.
Hang on there sport... I agree that venting and generalizations would seem ridiculous, but aren't you guilty of the exact same thing in generalizing that everyone on this board is intellectually challenged?
Spelling and grammar? Sure, go ahead and bust the guy's chops. However, a full comprehension of the english language is obviously not a prerequisite for being in politics (ref, GWB who rarely utters a coherent sentence)...
Now get in the pit and try to love someone!
QuoteNow get in the pit and try to love someone!
SWEET! Bawitdaba da bang a dang diggy diggy diggy said the boogy said up jump the boogy...
You been watching Biker Boyeeeezzzz? ::)
QuoteSWEET! Bawitdaba da bang a dang diggy diggy diggy said the boogy said up jump the boogy...
LMAO
a generalization is one thing.....but to suggest wiping France off the face of the earth because their leaders disagree with U.S. foreign policy seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Discussing politics is often very difficult as it crosses into deep rooted beliefs and opinions and unfortunately I have a low tolerance for political conversation that is not based in reason and thus my response.
I publically apologize to all I may have offended with my comments.....it was not my intention to piss people off, I guess the lack of racing and all of this freezing cold has affected my better judgement......
I have a low tolerance for political conversations period...let's change the subject. I'm tired of reading about overpayed politicians that USUALLY are just finding ways to get rich and retire rather than doing any good. New subject, please...and everybody is entitled to their opinions Balto and Ice...glad we're all still friends. ;D
Ok, I'll weigh in on this one.
This isn't about politics is it?
Let's get it into the open that Saddam Hussein is a murdering dictator the likes of which we haven't seen since Stalin, Hitler, and the other two guys who's names escape me... Uganda and Laos?
There is a sense of morality here. At what point to you look at what we had to do, where we logically stopped in Iraq because that was the right thing to do with the coalition forces, and what needs to be done.
If we do wait for him to do something, how many millions of lives will be lost. The World Trade Center was awful. What could come about would make that look like a walk in the part.
Bottom line is that he is a loose cannon that the international community condemned and regulated. His contempt for the world forced those doing the watching out. He has not done he agreed with.
Foreign oil? If we wanted it, we'd go and get it. We don't need to go to Iraq to get it; to force our will. And where would they be if we didn't buy it? They would probably be in the situation they were before that time. Warlords moving across the country side. Death, famine, etc. In a way, they have it much better now.
Would the people of Iraq be better off without Saddam? He's a butcher. People follow him because they don't want to be butchered, or they like the power.
Would I sleep better knowing that Saddam is not a threat to me, my two kids, and my wife? Easy answer. I spend enough time serving our country that the thought of biological weapons terrifies me. The thought that some groups would like to set off a dirty bomb makes me angry. I was trained at a Civil Defense Radiological Moniter. Pretty straight forward stuff. I am terrified at the though of watching my son die a slow and grusome death because of radiation sickness.
My mind is pretty made up.
Sorry, I didn't get to read the first post... I'm just curious...
Dave, It was a pretty similar view, in very graphic emotional stupid wording. You didn't miss anything. At this point, knowing their leaders and commanders were condoning they're behavior in Kuwait, and that I was drunk, you know it wasn't pretty.
Now if this thread would only die
Does Irac boarder with Iraq???? ;D
I hope that's the special place that Saddam will go into exile in...
This would all be so easy if he would do that. But the Arabic leaders have not put pressure on him to do as such.
On a related topic, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom, an extraordinarily boring book, is the book that Lawrence of Arabia wrote about his expliots during WWI. I have one of the first copies. Anyway, the movie Lawrence of Arabia was based on that book. It does give a very unique insight into arabic life. Things are just a certain way in the Middle East. Very intesting movie to watch. It can be very boring, but it is a rather epic production.
In my infinite wisdom of 31 years... Race, Religion and Politics are the three subjects that cannot be discussed with anyone.
Don't even try to fool yourself and think you can discuss them with your spouse. That's a terrible mistake :o
(okay Ice, it's all good)
You're baiting me...
What does race, religion, or politics have to do with the wholesale killing of people? Or the resaonable and immentent danger that he does in fact pose to you and I and others.
That's why this is far beyond that race, religion, or politics. Opinion, I know. I was not so sure about the first gig in 1991. This one is different.
QuoteIn my infinite wisdom of 31 years... Race, Religion and Politics are the three subjects that cannot be discussed with anyone.
Don't even try to fool yourself and think you can discuss them with your spouse. That's a terrible mistake :o
What do you mean, can't discuss them with your spouse? ???
Paul and I discuss politics all the time. Fortunately I have a husband who sees everything the same way I do. ;D
Dawn ;)
QuoteWhat do you mean, can't discuss them with your spouse? ???
Paul and I discuss politics all the time. Fortunately I have a husband who sees everything the same way I do. ;D
Dawn ;)
Just wait... you'll eventually find a point of disagreement... It's inevitable... I'm not saying my marriage is so shallow that I can't disagree with my wife, but it does lead to some rather lively discussions ;-)
And Dave, I wasn't fishing, just making a comment on the 3 topics. Never did mention their direct relation to the topic at hand though :-*
Yeah, Jeff, I know... But I couldn't resist...
QuoteJust wait... you'll eventually find a point of disagreement... It's inevitable... I'm not saying my marriage is so shallow that I can't disagree with my wife, but it does lead to some rather lively discussions ;-)
Jeff:
It was a joke. Paul and I are both passionate, strong willed, bull-headed people with a German heritage. Any one who knows us, knows that there is no way that Paul would agree with everything I say. ;)
We do have "lively" conversations at times.
Dawn :)
Baltobuell
Thought you might like this:
http://vampirebat.com/obeythefist/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv
http://military-graphics.net/ac130/ac-130tossingflares.jpg
There are 2 methods of winning, the one by law, the other by force: the 1st method is that of men, the 2nd of beasts, but as the 1st method is often insufficient, one must have recourse to the 2nd.
Thanks, I wasn't going to answer, but that was just too easy.
Somebody start some new threads!
sorry everyone i don't mean to bring back this topic, but when i read it i had to respond.
ever since WWI the arab world has been f***ed, this is partly our fault, spliting out the whole reigon into seprate countries. the only reason the arab world is so bad is because of the leaders. they live rich wonderful lives when the rest of the country lives in poverty or close to it. when islam was first spreading in the area and was powerful it was the center of intelect in the world and all people were treated fairly until one bad leader ruined it for all.
anyways lets not forget that all arabs aren't muslim, many of them are christian just like us. they don't really care about terrorising, all they care about is living another day and not being killed in their own home infront of their kids. israel is also a big part of the whole issue, they violated over 60 UN resolutions about weapons of mass distruction, they don't allow weapons inspectors like every other "democracy" and areal sharon is a conviced war criminal, muslim AND christans are killed and misstreated everyday by the israeli army, again the israeli people are not bad it's the leaders.
remember the way bush plans on going after saddam is just going to kill more civilians and bring more hate, look at afganastan, it's still a mess, everyday there are attacks on us soilders but the news brings nothing because then war on iraq will not go through.
yes saddam is bad, infact i think every arab and israeli leader needs to be changed but we need to find a better way then war, hopefully someday there will be a revolution in the region, then we can focus on the real issues like AIDS and world hunger.
think about it ???
46 .... get off the drugs man. Some day there will be a revolution in the region? Explain this to me, please. I must have missed the last 42 0r so revolutions over there!
a revolution is a GOOD change when the people come up and control, not a few rich families control, the last 42 or what ever are just stupid people taking over. would you call hitler coming in power being a revolution........no, yes he did good in raising germany from their depressson but that doesn't compare to what he did. our country can help or hurt the situation, i'm sure there is a way to get in there get rid of the fag and his "inner circle" and hold a election, yeah it sounds kiddish and will probably never happen like that but that would be the ideal way, and remember hate just brings more hate.
The area has been kind of messed up way before WW!. Regardless, the rich families have always had power. The region was a great center of knowledge, but things changed over time.
Lots of posturing goes on. It is just a way of business.
Revolution? I don't know. That would require that the masses, or at least some with influence, educate each other that there should be a different way.
There are places in the Arab world that teach Arab children how bad Americans and the United States are. When that changes, the world might also be a better place.
Any organization that has such a disregard for human life that it pays families when their family members marytr themselves by killing "infidels", innocent children and families...
Many of these organization claim to be following the will of Allah... Any proper Muslim know's how improper that is.
Weapons inspectors don't look for that kind of stuff. And how do you prepare against it?
it would be nice to go on but the situation is waaay to complicated to try and type out, all i really want to say is i know arabs and they are very nice people, it's just they have be misstreated for so long some are starting to ruin it for all, and the muslim religon is not bad either, it just needs to be gone through by moderate people and be modernized, because alot of the parts had to do with life when the religon first formed and is not neccesary antmore. anyways lets all just try and be open minded before we make judgements, i'm not pointing any fingers, this is for everyone including me.
I agree. The people are good honest people. They wish to be respected. However, the ones that are in power want things to be different. They control the education and the power, the money and the flow. The military forces ready to strike Saddam are there to strike against the military and the government of Iraq. They are not there to take any oil (if we wanted, we could have done that many, many times already) or take over the country. We could have done that in a lot of places too.
Saddam is a threat to everyone and he needs to be taken care of.
great input people. all i want to say is i was there as a 19 yr old punk back in 92. now older and much wiser, my opinion has changed as has my overall view of the world since 911. are we to trust other
cultures? yes. do we have to believe in what they believe? no. should we go to war with Iraq? hmn?
until you are fired at or have played cards, ridden,
drank beer with someone who's entire anatomy is
nolonger attached, you can't understand ie., DEAD.
war sucks. period. people die. spl(sodem) >:( needs to be put somewhere, forever. these are not his people. they are the people of islamic faith, however,
they fear a dick tater more than Allah. this includes
his men of war. i'm mad now because two of my best bud's are off to fight for what is right. and we had plans to get them on the track this year :(
so lets end this thread and the hatred for a people
who are not responsible for the actions(orders) of
one sadistic maniac. don't worry we're gonna get him this time. he's done. hooyah!!!
Uh, don't forget the last one was in 1991...
I was in kind of a similar position, back then, but different. I did not go because our National Guard unit was a combat unit, and obviously, the US Army had those. Lots of Trans and Medical guys got called up.
Last time, we were part of a colation force to repel the aggressions of an invader. I would have been improper in our context to have continued to Bahgdad unless the Arab community asked us to do it. A friend of mine was in the 82nd Airborne Division. He was sitting in the desert between Bahgdad and the Iraqi Army waiting to go in to get Saddam. Every thing ended, they left.
This is different. How much more of a threat do we need? And what's up with the NATO people? They won't help Turkey? Great, so we shouldn't have helped Germany with the Iron Curtain problem? What a joke! It's times like these when you see who's your friend...and who isn't. I for one am pretty impressed with the resolve of the Turkish govenment. I didn't think they would allow us to work there. Obviously, they can see the danger from outside their door.
super_dave you make a good point but.........
we are saying that we are fighting for a democracy, in a democracy there should be different opinons, so i think it is ok for france, germany and belgium to to say no. antways they will be more greatly effected by the war than us. one they are much closer and it could spread, and two europeans already pay $4 per LITER of gas, that turns out to be about $10 per gallon, and with a war they may be a shortage of oil for some time, and they will suffer not us.
another thing is that after the gulf war which i think was only about one month long there were many incodents of vets coming back and being very violent, killing there wives, and we all know what timothy mcveah(sorry can't spell) did. and a high percent are still receving government aid because of being sick.
lets think logic, saddam KNOWS that we are coming to kill/dispose of him, so of course that means he will use any means to stay alive because he knows he is dying anyway, why not use the weapons? i'm not on saddam's side but he said he wants these weapons because israel has these same weapons and nobody inspects or cares that they do, he said he wants it for self defence. iraq has a HISTORY of killing inocent people israel kills incoent people AS WE SPEAK.
The US is the great experiment... And it's a republic, which is a bit different. I think freedom is probably the most important thing.
However, if we fight, we fight for the right that we have to protect ourselves from those that seem to want to provide my family with harm. My wife sat down and asked me about chemical warefare. You spent some time in, so I'm sure you remember the drills, symptoms, and have seen enough films to understand what this can be.
Be a man about it. Come at me with a gun. These terrorist nations want to toss dirty bombs in shopping malls, hotels, chemical attacks in subways. I'm sure they would have no problem in bombing my son's first grade classroom. You can sit and watch families dies an awful, horrible, painful death... Or we can go take care of this business.
As for the Israeli's... They aren't saints...no pun intended...but they have enough military might that IF they really wanted to, they could really let loose on ALL of the people that they suspect. Look how tiny they are, and look at all the unrest around them. And again, these rich people are educating the poor how bad they are, offering families money when a son or a brother blows himself up in a shopping area.
Personally, I can hardly believe that the Israeli's can keep themselves under control with the punishment that they have received.
Quoteanother thing is that after the gulf war which i think was only about one month long there were many incodents of vets coming back and being very violent, killing there wives, and we all know what timothy mcveah(sorry can't spell) did. and a high percent are still receving government aid because of being sick.
I think it was said a long, long time ago...war is hell. Sometimes things must be done. If we want to form more correlations, not causes, we can talk about how the Super Bowl affects the stock market. (I've got a research degree...I can be a pain...and make any statistic say what I want too.)
The role of a soldier can be rather violent. It's really part of the game. We can say a lot about drug dealers too.
So, what's the risk...
We go in, take care of business for ourselves and the world. Stabilize the region for all the Arabs.
Or sit back while terrorists target and murder the families of the United States.
Quoteeuropeans already pay $4 per LITER of gas, that turns out to be about $10 per gallon
Can anyone explain to me why gas is so high in other parts of the world? I just returned from Argentina and Brasil where I saw similar gas prices and this always baffles me. And I thought Nutec was expensive......
Also, I must say that the political conversation here is refreshing. To keep it that way, I'll stay out of it :-X
QuoteCan anyone explain to me why gas is so high in other parts of the world? I just returned from Argentina and Brasil where I saw similar gas prices and this always baffles me. And I thought Nutec was expensive......
Also, I must say that the political conversation here is refreshing. To keep it that way, I'll stay out of it :-X
why? because saudi arabia kisses our ass and does whatever we tell them to do, we are the luckiest people in the world, we are really the only people who have never experienced a war on our own turf and we get everything cheap from everybody. if you were a little country with little power wouldn't you be scared as hell from the US, knowing the US is still stuck in the 20th centry of war and not deplomacy. ever since WWII europe has had little or no military, they solve there problems with deplomacy, and if they need more than that then it goes to NATO, does the arab/muslim world hate europe? no.
QuoteAs for the Israeli's... They aren't saints...no pun intended...but they have enough military might that IF they really wanted to, they could really let loose on ALL of the people that they suspect. Look how tiny they are, and look at all the unrest around them. And again, these rich people are educating the poor how bad they are, offering families money when a son or a brother blows himself up in a shopping area.
the reason everybody in that area hates israel is for one reason. in 1947 what was palestine (they were living in peace christians/muslims/jews) was taken and given to the jews, all the christians and muslims were kicked out by force, on fridays all men were taken from mosques and on sundays all men were taken from the church, put in a boat and shipped to lebannon. now if you were suddenly taken from your country and thrown into another as a refugee and for 54 years and still given no repect, what would you do? now imagine the arab countries who have to take care of the 5-6+ million people. thats why they hate israel, why hate the US? because the US pays israel billions of dollars per year in military aid, what do they do? kill the remaining muslims and christians in israel. up until the last 5 years the palestinians have been silent about it and ever since they started fighting back people think they're blood hungry people, which is wrong.
Wait a minute racer, I've been staying out of it hoping the thread would go away, but Terrorists have been pelting Europe harder than the US. Germany and France are scared because they get hit so often. Any disturbance is going to cause a backlash and they are closer. Saddam is going to set off whatever he has in this next attack and they may suffer. I'd be cautious too. They don't hate Europians, they just blow them up in the coffee shops. As a group, generations have come and gone blowing innocent people up. Are you sure they should have nucular bombs and anthrax? Your childrens lives, everything you dream of, everything you've worked for, everthing that keeps you from eating tree bark or your neighbor too survive, depend on this decision. War sucks, loosing sucks a whole lot more and do you think Iraq is going to send aid after they set off a nuke? This isn't about the price of gas.
QuoteCan anyone explain to me why gas is so high in other parts of the world? I just returned from Argentina and Brasil where I saw similar gas prices and this always baffles me. And I thought Nutec was expensive......
Because most other governments are socialist. So, they tax the daylights out of things. This is another reason why motorcycles are more popular in other parts of the world...along with motorcycle racing.
Quotewhy? because saudi arabia kisses our ass and does whatever we tell them to do, we are the luckiest people in the world, we are really the only people who have never experienced a war on our own turf and we get everything cheap from everybody. if you were a little country with little power wouldn't you be scared as hell from the US, knowing the US is still stuck in the 20th centry of war and not deplomacy. ever since WWII europe has had little or no military, they solve there problems with deplomacy, and if they need more than that then it goes to NATO, does the arab/muslim world hate europe? no.
I think we kiss Saudi Arabia. They have ties to some of this, but we don't make a big stink about it in the press. We must be careful.
The Revolutionary War, War of 1812, The Civil War, Pearl Harbor...
But we do look out for the rest of the world. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, other smaller conflicts. Europe solving problems with diplomacy? Right! I think it was because of the might of the United States economy, the will of the people, and the far sightedness of those in power that could see that we had to unite in Europe to stop what could happen.
We won the Cold War with our economy. We out spend the Soviet Union, we made technological advances that they could never do in a society that does not reward innovation and picking yourself up.
Do some Arab people hate Europe? I'm sure. Do all Arabs hate Americans or the United States? No.
Why are Americans so down on America? That's my question...
Quotethe reason everybody in that area hates israel is for one reason. in 1947 what was palestine (they were living in peace christians/muslims/jews) was taken and given to the jews, all the christians and muslims were kicked out by force, on fridays all men were taken from mosques and on sundays all men were taken from the church, put in a boat and shipped to lebannon. now if you were suddenly taken from your country and thrown into another as a refugee and for 54 years and still given no repect, what would you do?
It was the
dilomacy of the United Nations that created the state of Israel. I am not perfect on that side of history, but that is the start.
For thousands of years the area has been a Hebrew area. Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, had his changed by God to Israel.
Indeed it is a very perilous region. With the origins of Judiaism, Christianity, and Islam from the area it is a struggle.
Respect. I understand. I agree. I feel as though you might be Arabic by the way you write. I understand the wish for respect. And I give that respect to all because we are men (and women). That is how respect should be given.
I feel the plight of the Arab people displaced by Israel. I understand their struggle to maintain something. The disrespect on all sides is very trouble some.
Back to the original topic. I have no respect for a man that murders his own people. Why should anyone? I feel the threat,
the disrespect, that terrorists, and those that support it, that they pose to me, my family, my friends, and my country, and others.
Is this not agreeable?
American Imperialism...
Fight a war against a dictator. Offer support and aid to those who wish to stop him. Sacrifice the lives of our children to stop the killing. Our work, our might. We stop the enemy, forgive the debts to the ones we help, When the war is over, we rebuild the "offending" country from ruins, offer our support and money to protect them.
That was WWII. We stopped fighting and started working together. Respect!
At what point do the suicide bombings stop? In my short life time, they have never stopped. Will they ever? What is the aim of them? There is no respect in those actions. They only serve to increase the divide.
QuoteKILL EM' ALL , let god ( or ala as they call it) sort em' out. And if France has a problem with it, Bomb there ass too. Who the hell is France anyway. They have the economy on South Africa and the population of Ethiopia. If it wasn't for us they would all have nazi emblems on there head. I'm with you 100% on this one BaltoBuell >:(
Well guy, France is a nation that likes to get in over its head on many issues, then have some one else help them out of it. Remember your history? Say, WW II? We should have never given them so much of a pull in the UN (if any) after that war. I was in Desert Storm, :-[ >:( and I can tell you this. If it was not for France being involved with the sease fire that brought our guys home, ??? But did'nt allow an end to anything, :( we would not have this problem now. >:( Place France under Marshall law (gust while we get the job done), ;) support the Turks, ;) invade Bagdad from all sides, ;D and kill the Bastards who are the problem. ;D Then let the French :P"Police" :Pthe nation while there own people make a new government for themselves. 8) While we watch over the hole thing. >:( >:( >:(
France... I'll leave that part at that.
As for finishing off Saddam in the "first" Persian Golf War...
Yes, it would probably have been to some advantage at this time. But, we'll go back to that respect thing again, the local governments, the Arab community, felt that driving the Iraqi army out of the country that they occupied was sufficient. Going further to get Saddam was not what they wanted. We were part of a coalition army. Sure, we had a huge part in it all, but what was done was the right thing to do.
If we had went on and done in Saddam for our reasons, good or bad, even in hind sight, we would have disrespected the Arab community in their own lands. And thus we left...
Indeed, Saddam was relatively isolated for years. Then in 1998(?) he kicked the UN inspectors out. And that has led to what we have now.
QuoteThe Revolutionary War, War of 1812, The Civil War, Pearl Harbor...
But we do look out for the rest of the world. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, other smaller conflicts.
first those wars except for the revolutionary war were civil wars, not against other people, so it's different. and anyway they are too far back for any of us to know what is was like, WWII happened on european soil, they know what it takes to have to completely rebuild their countries.
as for korea, vietnam and the other stuff, it really didn't help anything, we lost vietnam, and look at korea, it was just found they HAVE a missle able to hit the west coast.
QuoteIt was the dilomacy of the United Nations that created the state of Israel. I am not perfect on that side of history, but that is the start.
For thousands of years the area has been a Hebrew area. Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, had his changed by God to Israel.
Indeed it is a very perilous region. With the origins of Judiaism, Christianity, and Islam from the area it is a struggle.
Respect. I understand. I agree. I feel as though you might be Arabic by the way you write. I understand the wish for respect. And I give that respect to all because we are men (and women). That is how respect should be given.
I feel the plight of the Arab people displaced by Israel. I understand their struggle to maintain something. The disrespect on all sides is very trouble some.
the UN resolution, said that israel should be made without the expense of a country for the palestinians, basically they can have their country if they don't take someone elses, but they did anyway.
yes that are was a jewish area in the beginning, but when the country was under the control of muslims and christains it was very peaceful the jews that lived there got along great with the christians and muslims that lived there. but as soon as it was taken away and made israel it became very violent, and became jews vs. christians/muslims. and i have proof to back it up, my sister (she's in high school) works at a nursing home. she talked to a man and his wife, the man was stationed in palestine before it was made into israel, he and his wife said it was one of the most peaceful places they had ever been to. they came back in the 1950's for a vacation when it was israel and left early because it was completely different and they did not like the new atmosphere.
terrorism, sucide bombing is bad and wrong, no normal person can deny that, but what give the us in the US the power to govern the world, it is because of us the talaban started, it is because of us iraq has dangerous weapons, we get into other peoples busness screw their world, then leave and say it's their fault when their radicals attack us.
look at afganistan, it's still f***ed up, or presence there is doing nothing, yes we freed them, but we need to work harder to stabalize and get their country going before we go off and do the same to iraq.
QuoteWait a minute racer, I've been staying out of it hoping the thread would go away
sorry, i'm not trying to cause a problem, i don't know if you made the first post or not, i never read it, i don't really care, this is just a discusion with me, dave and anyone else who wants to be a part of it.
Yes, a long time ago. But the War of 1812 was against the British, not a civil war.
We could have remained in our isolationist attitude to the world during previous conflicts. Yet, we sacrificed our sons and daughters in the name of helping in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. There no war on America soil. Does that make the lives sacrificed less valuable? Or does it reflect the respect that have for the world as Americans? After all, Americans are from many places. Native Americans are the only indigenous people of North America.
Do we count the September 11th occurances as the beginning of a war against the United States? I think that most would agree. It was a direct attack against civilians on United States soil.
(And I'm enjoying our "converstation"... Please, I am anxious to hear your replies. Are you Arabic yourself? Or at least I am curious from where you get some of your good thoughts on this topic....)
Yes, Treat it like Pearl Harbor D*%it >:(
But remember who dot us involved in the problem in the first place before we start pushing buttons. :-[Hey while we are at it, lets invade Canada.
QuoteWe could have remained in our isolationist attitude to the world during previous conflicts. Yet, we sacrificed our sons and daughters in the name of helping in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. There no war on America soil. Does that make the lives sacrificed less valuable? Or does it reflect the respect that have for the world as Americans? After all, Americans are from many places. Native Americans are the only indigenous people of North America.
yes they did sacrafice their lives and every one of those lives are invalubale, noone deservers to be killed. but i believe they lost their life for nothing (korea and vietnam) because that area is not much better today, both korea and vietnam are in deep poverty, their children die every day from hunger. as for WWI and WWII those were worthwhile because if we stayed out then the world would have been much worse off today, the problem is that after the war what happened is where the problems grow.
QuoteDo we count the September 11th occurances as the beginning of a war against the United States? I think that most would agree. It was a direct attack against civilians on United States soil.
9/11 was an attack on civilians yes, but i don't think it should be seen a a war against americans, the radicals who are behind all this are most likely laughing their asses off at us because we are doing exactly what they want, they want us to come after iraq so they can hate us more, attack us more, afterall there mission is to destroy america. i can't tell you what really is best to do with the situation, i've been thinking forever about the best solution but i'll tell you that staying out of iraq is the safest thing to do.
Quote(And I'm enjoying our "converstation"... Please, I am anxious to hear your replies. Are you Arabic yourself? Or at least I am curious from where you get some of your good thoughts on this topic....)
yes i am arab, i'm a palestinian. i'll give you my history so us can understand my views better.
in 1947 my grandfather was at the mosque for the friday prayer, my grandmother was 6 months pregnant with my dad and had three other kids already. when he left the mosque outside there was a big truck already filled with men, he was forced by gunpoint to go onto the truck. once the truck was filled they were taken to the coast and shipped to berut, lebannon, my grand mother heard about this and was told the only was she would ever see her husband was to leave palestine and walk to jordan, were the men would be told to go, so with just the clothes on her back and three little kids she walked accross palestine into jordan. a few months past before she was reunited with my grandfather. they tried to come back into palestine but were not alowed to, all there belongings, house factory, was all gone (to this day a jewish family lives in their old house even though we have the deed to the house and the original house key). so they started their life over in jordan from nothing. my grandfather died of a heartattack when my dad was 12, so my grand mother told all of her kids education was the only way to live. with those words in mind my father got a full scholarship in the US at a respected university where he got his PhD. while in college his room mate turned out to be palestinain too. but his family was lucky enough to still be living in palestine, which had become israel. my dad's room mate heard that his father was sick and was close to diying so he went back home to see his dad one more time. but when he got there he was taken by israel soliders, put in jail for over 100 days. there he was tortured, taunted and beaten daily by the soilders, he was an american citizen at the time and still is. they said if you want to go see your dad you have to sign this paper, the paper was in hebrew, which he did not know, he was not allowed to see a layer either. so he signed it, but the paper said he had to stay for another 9 months in jail and be beaten. when he finally was let out his father was already dead. i know this is kinda off topic but that whole issue is what brings hate to the US. if you think this only happens to muslims your wrong, my dad has a friend who lives in bethlaham who is christian and lived in one of the oldest homes in the country, which was a peice of history. well one day last year the israeli army came in the middle of the night to his house, they said you have 5 minutes to get out, they got out, the army buldozed their house and left. this happens every day, last year sharon also ordered an american quaker school be buldouzed.
if you have and questions just ask.
???It's too late to stay out. :'(And this region has a nasty history of not turning the other cheek. They don't forget about nothing, and will get you back for stuff your grandkids will never remember. :P ???
Thank you for being up front.
I know that Israel leads South Africa in its crimes against people.
Unfortunately, many of the stories get watered down, or just lost.
And I really don't know what to do. I feel as though so many have a right to the area. It is so filled with a wide history and significance...
If it could be just a Free Zone or something... I don't know. I hear of the bulldozing of homes. I understand it from the perspective that you are giving. And I do sympathize a little with the idea of someone trying to protect themselves. There doesn't seems to be the checks and balances available to protect either side. It is a loss across the board.
[quote[9/11 was an attack on civilians yes, but i don't think it should be seen a a war against americans, the radicals who are behind all this are most likely laughing their asses off at us because we are doing exactly what they want, they want us to come after iraq so they can hate us more, attack us more, afterall there mission is to destroy america. i can't tell you what really is best to do with the situation, i've been thinking forever about the best solution but i'll tell you that staying out of iraq is the safest thing to do.[/quote]
I worry that it will escalate. I'm sure everyone does.
What is the aim of it all? Islam was so rich with knowledge at one time. A leader. Now there seems to be a sway by some toward trying to force a particular will of Islam on the world. One that I, and I'm sure some Moslems, see as extremely othodox. Indeed, a holy war...
As for Iraq... I suppose that it does fit into someone's plan. Even, it seems, that bin Laden has vocalized his contempt for Saddam. It would be in everyone's best interest if someone could just get him to go away, willingly or otherwise. Perhaps it would serve to defuse the situation a little bit.
And, I didn't say it in the previous post...
You have my condolences for the losses that your family has received at the hands of those individuals. I'm sure they are not representative of all Hebrew's or Israeli's, but justice should be done... I, as you, do not expect it to come soon.
QuoteAnd, I didn't say it in the previous post...
You have my condolences for the losses that your family has received at the hands of those individuals. I'm sure they are not representative of all Hebrew's or Israeli's, but justice should be done... I, as you, do not expect it to come soon.
yes, that's absoulutly true, it is not the people who are to blame, it's the israeli government. my grandfather worked every day with jews and never had problems. governments fuck the whole world.
by the way.....it's nice to finaly talk to someone who can look at the whole story and understand.
Thank you. Good to have your input too.
I'll add two things.
I think Ronald Reagan said it best, and I think I quoted him last month, "Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem."
On the flip side, there are individuals that breed such terrible thoughts, ideas, and actions. And they get people to think the same way. Ultimately, those people make a choice. Whether it is to blow themselves up, torture someone, fly a plane into a building, and an on going list of things... And I always thought it came down to education somewhere; placing that bad though in someone's mind. And the back and forth just continues to reinforce what happens.
Has Yassir Arrafat lost control? And is he relevant anymore? At times, it just seems as though no one is listening to him even when he is promoting something good. (Are we going back to that respect thing again....)
The common theme to the whole mid-east is that their armys act like barbariens. Why is that? How can a Captain order a rape? Or a suicide attack? Or for a soldier to beat an old woman? I guess it's a power thing I don't understand, but it certainly sheds an ugly light on the "culture"
Racer, Your Grandfather had a very difficult life, but, on a positive note, the Israeli's did you a favor, if they hadn't forced him out, you'd be right in the middle of it, socially obligated to strap on a bomb. Things work out for the best.
Look at it this way. For all the individuals that do sacrifice themselves, there are many, many, many more that would never think about such a thing. However, the do feel powerless agains the Israeli's.
Maybe I can put this in some context...
British soldiers would move into colonist's homes, forcing those people out. It was a British soldiers right to do that. In our Constitution, for the US military to do that is strictly forbidden. There are rights that are afforded to "land owner". Manifest Destiny is a whole other topic, so we won't go there.
But look at the people living in what is now Israel that are not Israeli's. They might have had a home in their family for generations, or less, but regardless they are pushed out, bulldozed over, etc. Put yourself in their shoes. At what point do those people have rights or not?
As for their militarys (SP...my brain just is not functioning...), training, education. They might be fierce, but to maintain an even keel all the time under the extreme circumstances all the time... Even highly trained soldiers can break and fall to the lowest common denomenator.
I am clearly a spoiled American. In even trying to envision a situation where I would be forced to live in poverty and fear, or fight to the death, I think of Eddie Murphy on Africa, "don't send food, send U-hauls, food doesn't grow in the desert and if they live there they will always need more food". A mass of refugees is difficult to deal with, but why are generations going on this way? Heck, I'm fed up with taxes, which is basicly a just a nusiance, and am fantasizing retirement in South America.
Oh, and nobody would guess, with the Peace Corp. Hey, without dreams we ain't got nuthin.
As an American, yes, we do have a differnet point of view.
Let this put something in perspective....
You family has lived in a particular region for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's your place. Now bring some more people in, have families...
I mean lets look at Europeans. If you're German, let's say, you and your past generations have live in a small region. Mabye about the size of Texas? And the family lives there for generation after generation.
My two aunt's live in California, my Dad lives in Nebraska. We live in very different areas. We're much more mobile that way. If need be, I could up and move to some place else.
My family came from Poland in 1865. The family and friends they left behind were probably never heard from again. And they knew that when they left. There wasn't any turning back. And if you didn't make it, well, you might just die in the American Frontier.
We've got so much to fall back on.
If you live in a desert, about all you have is the community, the family, of people that you are with. You have to stick together to survive.
QuoteOn the flip side, there are individuals that breed such terrible thoughts, ideas, and actions. And they get people to think the same way. Ultimately, those people make a choice. Whether it is to blow themselves up, torture someone, fly a plane into a building, and an on going list of things... And I always thought it came down to education somewhere; placing that bad though in someone's mind. And the back and forth just continues to reinforce what happens.
some palestinains live in refugee camps, with no running water, barely any food and nothing to do, if you lived like this i'm sure you would look at the people who did this and hate. when a US made israeli helicopter goes and bombs a building, little kids go and play in the rubble, many times they find a piece of the bomb "MADE IN THE USA", so to them the USA is doing this to them, but i know that still does not justify killing civivlians.
QuoteHas Yassir Arrafat lost control? And is he relevant anymore? At times, it just seems as though no one is listening to him even when he is promoting something good. (Are we going back to that respect thing again....)
yes i think he also has lost control and i think he needs to be replaced as well. but the thing is he has no control because the israeli army will decide to take over his building and not let him move, and they have no connection to the outside world rather than the batteries left in their cell phones, then the army says "we're not leaving till you stop the bombings" well you can't stop them when you have no connection to the outside world.
also, when was the last time you heard of a suicide bombing in israel? it's been awhile, right? well how come the media doesn't say this, israel as we speak is attacking the palestinians while there are no retaliations by the palestinians, this is the cise fire they keep asking for to restart talks, but they wait till another bombing happens then they go and say they need a cise fire.
QuoteRacer, Your Grandfather had a very difficult life, but, on a positive note, the Israeli's did you a favor, if they hadn't forced him out, you'd be right in the middle of it, socially obligated to strap on a bomb. Things work out for the best.
in a way yes but i have to disagree. if israel was never created where it was then this whole issue would have never came up, and most likely the whole region would be peaceful. and no i would not be socaily obligated to strap a bomb and go. i have a cousin who is 15 and lives in the west bank, he has no intentions to go out and do a suicde bomb. the worse he ever did was throw rocks at an israeli tank than was sitting in front of his house. if you did a poll on how many think sucude bombings are ok it would be close to 1%, because when someone goes and does a suicde bombing they just make it worse for their own people, because israel comes the next day and buldozes the house of all the relatives of whoever did it.
did you ever think of why someone would kill themself? islam says that you should never kill yourself. so that means their life would have to be so bad, so painful that they would rather die than live another day.
Quoteif you did a poll on how many think sucude bombings are ok it would be close to 1%, because when someone goes and does a suicde bombing they just make it worse for their own people, because israel comes the next day and buldozes the house of all the relatives of whoever did it.
did you ever think of why someone would kill themself? islam says that you should never kill yourself. so that means their life would have to be so bad, so painful that they would rather die than live another day.
And I think that's where the boat get's missed. Why is it always the loud minority that gets heard.
I enjoyed John Stuart Mill... Basically, he thought that free speech should be allowed... in order to show how stupid some points of view are. I'm paraphrasing a bit... but the concept. And suicide bombings are stupid, but some people lump all of those people with all the good people that think it's stupid.
Where it get's bad is like in Germany after WWII. When the Allies were rebuilding, they found that about 1/3 of the people were Nazi's. They just had to work with them.
And this just came to me from a family member... I think it is relevent at this time....
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Subject: PRAY BEFORE IT STARTS PRAY BEFORE IT STARTS A torch has been lit today to be passed along to your e-mail friends...asking them to pass it along....and along....and along. We can do something about the threat of war; both in Iraq and with terrorists. In the Old Testament, God's armies were always led by the priests. When the waters parted in the Jordan, it was the priests' feet which first hit the turbulent river. In the New Testament, Christians are also referred to as priests...all Christians.
We must, therefore, go in first.
As the possibility of war approaches with Hussein and Iraq, we are asking the priests to step in first.....ahead of our military. Let us be setting up camp for our soldiers' entrance into the conflict. How? By prayer.
Let us be sending in "prayer missiles," "cruise and scud prayers" to target enemy plans. "Patriot prayers" to shoot down incoming threats.
We should be praying for two things: (1) that the enemy leaders become confused, disoriented, and distrustful of each other; that their entire system of attack fall apart, and (2) that in God's wildest ways, these enemies would become aware of His deep love for them and the war Jesus has already fought for them, personally, on the cross.
God had Gideon reduce his army from 32,000 to 300 men. He then equipped them with nothing but trumpets, pitchers, and torches. What an odd combination to fight off well-armed soldiers. When Gideon gave the command, the Bible says the enemy fled crying and turned on each other...all because God messed with enemy plans.
Prayers were started for this about a month ago. On CNN last weekend a report came out that although Hussein has nothing to lose, his generals do.
Is confusion beginning to develop? Please pray for God to set the stage for defeat of all those who intend to do harm. When our men and women of uniform arrive on the scene, may they be surprised at how God had camp set up before they ever got there.
Would you please do two things?
(1) pray, and (2) pass this along to those you know will pray.
Who is making me angry......Hollywood, not one of those idiots is living in our world. Speaking for the "American people" blamming America, I for one would like to start a boycot of everything hollywood especially Spike Lee and Richard Gere and Madona to name a few. I for one will not be spending any money on movies, that includes rentals. Nor will I buy anything endorsed by any American bashing celebrity. Those of you who are behind America are urged to do the same. Start pro America rallies in you towns, not pro war rallies as they will try to make it seem. We have to show the Admisistration, the Military, and brain dead Hollywood we do have a voice. Read the paper, or check out the internet news sites and you will see there is a big problem involving the celebrities that think they are speaking for America. It is a great thing to have a different opinion, it's what makes this country what it is. But it is another thing to undermine it. I hope this message finds you enraged as I.
Isrial was created before your lifetime. Your grandfather had a right to be pissed, but in the end he did more for his family by leaving than he ever could have by staying. I'm sure as he looks down he is pleased at the final outcome. I don't know, it seems you carry alot of resentment when your reality is that you are an American, were raised by a Doctor, and are apparently doing well. Americans commit suicide everyday, but they normally do it alone and don't blame someone else for their dispair. Pain has no border, niether does happiness. Money and power have marginal effect. If your concern is about your cousin, help him out of there. But carrying a 50 year old grudge is fruitless.
For the last 10 years or so I've been very turned off by organized religion. Bible thumpers can find a passage that backs up just about any distorted view on anything. I guess it's the same with the Koran. I don't see Binladin doing what he professes, yet he still has followers. Individual prayer seems to work best in any religon.
Quote Isrial was created before your lifetime. Your grandfather had a right to be pissed, but in the end he did more for his family by leaving than he ever could have by staying. I'm sure as he looks down he is pleased at the final outcome. I don't know, it seems you carry alot of resentment when your reality is that you are an American, were raised by a Doctor, and are apparently doing well. Americans commit suicide everyday, but they normally do it alone and don't blame someone else for their dispair. Pain has no border, niether does happiness. Money and power have marginal effect. If your concern is about your cousin, help him out of there. But carrying a 50 year old grudge is fruitless.
see the thing is it's not like the problem is over today either, people get killed everyday because they are christian or muslim, i'm not angry about what happened to my grandpa, it's that over 50 years later it's still happening to many people. yes americans kill them selves every day, but those reasons are different than those of palestinains, again i'm not justifying it, it's just different, americans kill them selves because they don't have friends, are over weight, something of that nature, our lives in america is a luxury compared to theirs, again these are still reasons and i'm not saying it's easy living the way depressed americans and anyone else do. palestinians kill themselves because ever time they walk out their front door they have a great chance of being killed, the other day my cousin's best friend was shot in the head by an israeli soilder while he was walking to school, why? nobody knows, they just found his body in the street. again we need to remember it's a small population of americans and palestinians who do comit suicde.
In Jesus' name
QuoteRomans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
PRAY BEFORE IT STARTS PRAY BEFORE IT STARTS A torch has been lit to be passed along ..asking them to pass it along....and along....and along. God's armies were always led by the priests. Christians are as priests...all Christians.
We must, therefore, go in first.
Let us be sending in "prayer missiles," "cruise and scud prayers" to target enemy plans. "Patriot prayers" to shoot down incoming threats.
We pray for two things: (1) that the enemy leaders become confused, disoriented, and distrustful of each other; that their entire system of attack fall apart, and (2) that in God's ways, these enemies would become aware of His deep love for them and the war Jesus has already fought for them, personally, on the cross.
God had Gideon reduce his army from 32,000 to 300 men. He then equipped them with nothing but trumpets, pitchers, and torches. What an odd combination to fight off well-armed soldiers. When Gideon gave the command, the Bible says the enemy fled crying and turned on each other...all because God messed with enemy plans.
Prayers were started for this
Please pray for God to set the stage for defeat of all those who intend to do harm. When our men and women of uniform arrive on the scene, may they be surprised at how God had camp set up before they ever got there.
Would you please do two things?
(1) pray, and (2) pass this along to those you know will pray.
Amen
So get him out of there. He deserves a future. If it is really that bad get him out of there before he becomes a psychotic. The State took my grandfathers farm for the interstate, somebody got rich but nobody in my family, oh well, my life is good because I made it that way, I'm not standing on I695 claiming my right to the beltway throwing rocks at cars. Somebody somewhere maybe Genieva, said Israel was going to be Israel. It's law, it sucks for a large group, but that's the way it is. The Israeli army sucks, but you said there haven't been any bombings lately, duh, it's about power and they have it. Legally and milatarily. They are scared pooless of the 1% and the 1% is what is keeping the Palistinians screwed to the wall. Help your cousin find a better life. Tomorrow is a brand new day. I'm sure both of you will see long term benefits.
Gad Zooks, I swore I wouldn't get sucked back into this.
Daves new name should be super deep thinkin Dave. I'll admit, him and Racer are way beyond me, and Ice too because he has the sense to keep quiet. When will I learn. I guess I'm a happy little fly.
QuoteI guess I'm a happy little fly.
Me too.
Dawn ;D
LOL...well, that is what I do...make people think... Usually not about this kind of stuff. I do have a minor in Philosophy. I wanted to get a Masters in Philosophy...just to be annoying ;D
It's not as easy as just walking away. Sometimes it comes down to what you think is right in your heart. There is the road less traveled...
And I'm sure the Beddoins (SP, I'm sorry) that roamed the deserts could have done something else. Damacus, Jerusalem, Baghdad... But that was not what they wanted.
In the same way, there are people that live in places that are not so good, even in Milwaukee. Drug dealers cause problems, the police is of little help, but they refuse to leave. Should they just walk away?
Flipside on this one...
When Iraq invaded Kuwait, should we have just turned our backs on that too? I did not agree at all with going in there at the time. But I think the statement was good. We were helping with a group of world powers, including Arab states, to stop Saddams imperialism. We could have just watched from the sidelines.
Now what to we do with Israel and Palestine? I believe that many Moslem Arabs point to this as the epicenter for many of the problems.
just thought it would work out with this thread.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fcrotchrocketracer46%2Fwhyworry.jpg&hash=2ffe46c8b6b819d4f08b2366fde9d2ac3eff2d04)
ps if the pic doesn't work click here
http://www.geocities.com/crotchrocketracer46/whyworry.jpg
The problem these days is that when a conflict arises between two factions some outsider steps in and tries to get them to play nice and "tolerate" each other. This allows the hostilities to continue on forever... In "the olden days" when a conquerer came on the scene the opponent was neutralized and absorbed into the conquering nation. End of conflict.
Maybe the Romans had the right idea?
racer46... Didn't have anything at the link... Except for a HGTV giveaway...
Olden Days...
Absorbed? I don't know. There was still quite a bit of conflict going on. Europe has been ravaged by war, well, pretty much forever.
OK ...just one post
QuoteThe problem these days is that when a conflict arises between two factions some outsider steps in and tries to get them to play nice and "tolerate" each other. This allows the hostilities to continue on forever... In "the olden days" when a conquerer came on the scene the opponent was neutralized and absorbed into the conquering nation.
I think the key is to have governmental unity among factions with toleration of religious and cultural differences. The different factions would be forced to be on the same team working together economically toward favorable living conditions and at the same time, they would maintain their differences of opinion on personal matters.
There are only two ways in which this can happen.
1) Nations would voluntarily join together (rare)
2) A conquerer arises to unify the nations
I found an interesting account of the conquests of Jenghiz Kahn (the ultimate conquerer as he was able to unify Asia and most of Europe) and it seems that the Mongols supported religous and cultural toleration after a nation was neutralized and absorbed. I kind of liken this to America where multiple cultures and religions are tolerated and peacefully coexist (generally)
Full story below:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Mongols-N-o-B-art.text
It seems to me that many of the problems in Europe and the Middle East are primarily a result of nations that are too small and have governments that are too closely linked to religious, ethnic or cultural beliefs.
A conquerer is indeed once again needed to unify the weak and divided nations of the Eastern world.
" A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them, to take their horses between his knees and to press in his arms the most desirable of their women" ~ Jenghiz Kahn
Quoteracer46... Didn't have anything at the link... Except for a HGTV giveaway...
damn it i hate geocities. oh well.
QuoteIt seems to me that many of the problems in Europe and the Middle East are primarily a result of nations that are too small and have governments that are too closely linked to religious, ethnic or cultural beliefs.
that's very true, before WWI the middle east was kinda one big blob and didn't really have any separation, and indeed it did work out that all three main religons were tolerated and everybody kinda got along (yeah there were a few problems but that's usual). but after WWI the british decided to split it up into countries and from there light problems started, then it just went out of control.