http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Mar/070321c.htm
discuss
good riddance!
Costs continue to escalate.
I bet they announce they are adding the USGPRU to most of the 2008 season events before August.
Glad to see they are FINALLY pulling that class!!
Why they ever had 2 classes for each displacement is beyond me....
History has been that way. Superbike was generally 750's and they had 750 Supersport. Both evolved into 1000 classes.
And, hey, didn't I read an article you wrote for something?
Quote from: Super Dave on March 22, 2007, 01:25:24 PM
Costs continue to escalate.
I bet they announce they are adding the USGPRU to most of the 2008 season events before August.
Could we see the return of 125's in AMA? Too bad 250 is unlikely.
I don't think the 125's have ever been as part of an official AMA class ever. Exhibition, etc., yeah, but never as official.
I can see where the AMA might want to get into the pockets of the people that seem to be very involved in putting the young kids on 125's, etc. All that money seems to be going a long way. Red Bull Cup stuff, etc. It might be interesting too. It was kind of cool when the AMA had the 125 exhibition races in 1994.
yeah you're right. It was exhibition races. I remember seeing Masahiro Lizuka and thinking that he couldn't be a racer as he looked just like my high school chemistry teacher. :)
I know, I know!!!! A twins endurance series.......................
It's about time and the last thing we need at the AMA level is the twins. The AMA should just keep the factory boys out of 600 Supersport .
I think it sucks. You're forcing privateers into the 600 classes. Not everyone wants to race a 600.
So now the fast privateers that want to prove something have to bring their 1000cc "supersport" bike and run it against $300,000 superbikes, provided they have a superbike license to begin with.
The AMA makes it hard enough for even the most well funded privateers to be competitive, this is just another step in the wrong direction.
Look at guys like Rob Jensen, Jeremy Toye, Jack Pfeifer. They could all podium in superstock if you put them on factory equipment, but they don't even race AMA because it's a waste of their money. Why bring a knife to a gun fight??
Quote from: fourandsix on March 22, 2007, 07:53:05 PM
The AMA should just keep the factory boys out of 600 Supersport .
Why? So it can be an undercard race that no one cares about? Kick the factories out of supersport and it would be ASRA with more traveling.
And what is a "factory" team? What about Attack Kawasaki, Jordan Suzuki, Erion Honda? They're all independently run, factory supported teams like yours. Are they allowed?
Maybe I'm stupid, but the solution seems simple, tighten up the rules to stop the factories from building supersport/superstock bikes that would cost a privateer $50,000 to duplicate. The best riders would still win, but the racing would be much closer.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. There are not that many people that can ride a 1000 to it's potential anyway. I see it all the time at the races , in Superstock the entries are down due to the cost of running a 1000. The 600 class is a perfect way to enter AMA competition. Our riders are not paid and only recive minimal support from Suzuki . I was talking about riders directly paid by the factories. I don't know where there are any $50,000 600 supersport bikes. You can build a competitive 600 for about $20,000 including the price of the bike. The only problem you have is finding someone that can actually ride one and the funds to maintain for the rest of the year and travel to all the events. For years everyone cries that the AMA should change so the upcoming riders can showcase their talent and get a dream ride on a factory team. Well they have started to move in that direction by getting rid of one class. The less money the factory teams spend on a class translates into more money spent elswhere in the form of racing. It can mean more supported teams such as us , more contingencey at the local racers who knows. I am sorry if you think the AMA ruined anyones careers by not having 1000's. Jensen is not interested in AMA , he makes a bunch more money cheerypicking the local guys.
it is a big difference between ASRA and an undercard at the AMA. Spectators would actually be watching you as they come to watch bikes circulate not for a sun tan. Other people in the industry would notice if there was a potential young gun winning the race. I just think it's a shame that racers think it is up to someone else to help them succeed in this sport.
Oh and i forgot it isn't the bike that keeps the racing from being close , it's called "SKILL". Once everyone figures that out the racing will be closer.
Quotethe solution seems simple, tighten up the rules to stop the factories from building supersport/superstock bikes that would cost a privateer $50,000 to duplicate. The best riders would still win, but the racing would be much closer.
I can certainly see the argument but personally I view AMA less as a place for privateers to prove their worth with the "big dogs" and more the place for leading edge technology to be developed and proven and for the big companies to advertise their products. So to say they should make the machines more equal to even the odds for privateers... thats not what top end pro racing is about. It's about who can put together the best package of racer, machine, and support staff... and win. To do that, it takes money, and lots of it. F1 cars, for example... it's not about giving privateers a chance to win, it's about developing the best leading edge technology to win, and further the development of the automotive industry. Sure, it's unfortunate that extremely skilled privateers with just as much skill as the pro riders don't have the same equal chance at winning. But thats life on the top. I am good friends with one of these riders, and have seen first hand his pain in trying to run with the big factory guys. Does it suck? Yes. But AMA isn't about giving privateers a chance. It's about using leading edge technology that most privateers will not have access to, in order to make racing faster and safer. And, of coarse, it's also about the much loathed aspect of product advertisement.
Quote from: fourandsix on March 22, 2007, 09:25:18 PM
Oh and i forgot it isn't the bike that keeps the racing from being close , it's called "SKILL". Once everyone figures that out the racing will be closer.
.
Does Hacker win the supersport championship on a Safety First bike? I doubt it.
And of coarse, as 4n6 pointed out, of coarse this sport is more about skill that the equipment. But as anyone knows, in top pro racing, "the whole package" plays a big part as well. The bike, the mechanics, right down to the semi driver and cook/burger grillin' dude. Every bit helps. It all makes the day go that much smoother for everyone, allowing for the rider to be relaxed and ready for game time. Sure, it starts out with a very tallented rider. There's no debating that. Hell, give a fat "all talk" guy like me a factory ride and watch me not even qualify for a single race. lol But at the top level, their skills are so close, every little bit has an impact on the race results.
Quote from: JBraun on March 23, 2007, 12:12:35 AM
Does Hacker win the supersport championship on a Safety First bike? I doubt it.
If American Suzuki was paying his salary to ride a Safety First bike? He didn't win any championships when he was with Yosh or Kinko's before, but, yeah, it could be done. Hacker doesn't have to race for free. Back to that recognized skill above others thing.
We could go through a list of guys that have yet to win an AMA championship though too: Zemke, DiSalvo, Roger Lee, Pegram...
Quote from: JBraun on March 23, 2007, 12:12:35 AM
Does Hacker win the supersport championship on a Safety First bike? I doubt it.
Quote from: JBraun on March 23, 2007, 12:12:35 AMDoes Hacker win the supersport championship on a Safety First bike? I doubt it.
Yes he might be able to. We were able to finish top ten in the classes we competed in last year. What did you do?
Quote from: fourandsix on March 23, 2007, 08:24:22 AM
Yes he might be able to. We were able to finish top ten in the classes we competed in last year. What did you do?
Wow, this is getting blown out of proportion. I was not attacking you, so relax. And I'm not saying that the Safety First bikes aren't competitive, just that the factory bikes are that much better.
You could give me Hacking's bike, all his mechanics and double his budget and I wouldn't finish in the top ten.
I realize the factories will always have the best riders, they have the money to pay their salaries. Everything being equal, they will still win, just not by quite as much.
If the racing was closer it would be more exciting for the fans. More fans equals more sponsors. More sponsors equals more opportunities for deserving riders.
Quote from: JBraun on March 23, 2007, 10:13:37 AMAnd I'm not saying that the Safety First bikes aren't competitive, just that the factory bikes are that much better.
You could give me Hacking's bike, all his mechanics and double his budget and I wouldn't finish in the top ten.
I realize the factories will always have the best riders, they have the money to pay their salaries. Everything being equal, they will still win, just not by quite as much.
If the racing was closer it would be more exciting for the fans. More fans equals more sponsors. More sponsors equals more opportunities for deserving riders.
The concept of deserving riders isn't part of the program necessarily. The AMA is the big show. Yeah, at the top, there are some skilled riders that are even paid for their services. There are some riders that pay for the opportunity to ride for some of those teams. They are deserving, yes, but there are others also available and willing to potentially infuse cash into a team. Maybe more than other riders. Maybe their sponsors are willing to put up some money to help those riders get on a better team to get their product better coverage.
Are the bikes that much better? 4&6 has won in Supersport beating all the other factory teams. And that wasn't just a stroke of luck. It's a combination of many pieces.
Quote from: JBraun on March 23, 2007, 10:13:37 AM
Wow, this is getting blown out of proportion. I was not attacking you, so relax. And I'm not saying that the Safety First bikes aren't competitive, just that the factory bikes are that much better.
You could give me Hacking's bike, all his mechanics and double his budget and I wouldn't finish in the top ten.
I realize the factories will always have the best riders, they have the money to pay their salaries. Everything being equal, they will still win, just not by quite as much.
If the racing was closer it would be more exciting for the fans. More fans equals more sponsors. More sponsors equals more opportunities for deserving riders.
I Understand you weren't attacking me i just wanted to get the response i thought i would. You just answered your own question it's a matter of alot of things and 95% of all local racers will never achieve the level of a Hacking. The racing will never be that close if everyone that races now had Hackers or any other factory bike.
:pop:
Quote from: Super Dave on March 22, 2007, 01:53:48 PM
History has been that way. Superbike was generally 750's and they had 750 Supersport. Both evolved into 1000 classes.
And, hey, didn't I read an article you wrote for something?
True - Guess I forgot about the 750s already! But I don't remember the lap times of 750 Supersport being as close to SBK as the 1000 'stock bikes have been. Ben Bostrom was 5th fastest in the Superbike practice at Daytona on his superstock bike this year. How many times did we see that last year from Disalvo? The bikes are so close, I for one will like seeing just one 1000cc class and all the top guys in it.
And yes, I had an article posted in "A Face In The Crowd" on www.superbikeplanet.com. Thanks for noticing!
Yeeehawwww.
Look out, it's the attack of the killer bees.
:biggrin:
Anybody remember when Superbike were 1025cc? How about F1 and Gary Nixon?
The "new" SB class will be inclusive with 1200 twins for most FIM events. See if Ducati/BMW bite.
Gee another topic about locals running in AMA and being able to compete.
It is a rare rider on the local level that gets to run up front with the factories. Jim...... Harrington did it once. The others were Scott Zampach, Jeff Farmer and lately Josh Herrin but he was on Graves Yamaha equipment. All of these guys were in Supersport also, not Superbike.
Does factory equipment make a difference? You better bet your ass it does. Does having 30 years of experience make a difference? Ask John Ulrich who is just now getting his boys into the fray.
It takes a lot of money, skill and experience to perform at the top of AMA racing. Without all of it you get a lucky rider occassionally but that's it.
The tire bill alone will kick out most privateers to run the whole season much less all the other costs. How many of you can afford to drop a fresh motor in every weekend and have several spares waiting in the trailer?
Back up bikes, how many privateers have them? how many privates have a full team of experienced people at their disposal? A full time computer guy? Full time engin builder or anything else?
With a TON of talent and a semi full of cash and some luck you may be able to get a factory ride or run up front with them but that's it. Been that way forever and always will..........sorry.
New rules for Superbike may change that a little but I doubt it. Look at Superspoort which was supposed to even things up, never did.
Off the box now..........fire back.
Quote from: weggieman on March 24, 2007, 11:00:18 AM
New rules for Superbike may change that a little but I doubt it. Look at Superspoort which was supposed to even things up, never did.
Exactly. When 600 Supersport started in 1987, didn't Polen win every event but one, which Mike Smith won? Polen was more talented than the field.
Todd, Scotty Z, Farmer, Rothman, Pridmore, Roos. Lots of talented guys.
Should we talk about Chaz Davies as an honest example of someone that is really, really talented? No BS there even when the bikes might not be up to snuff.
Yeah and Chad is not a beginner...........and Celtic didn't just fall off the turnip truck but yes they are relative privateers.
Take the Honda situation in consideration and what do you have for results? Everyone is a few more places down in a race that some entered only because it's the 200 they won't be racing it the rest of the season. That will help boost the privateers chances but we'll see how many run up front and for how long.
I'll agree on the 200. It's a different race.
Chaz is no beginner. But, then again, neither are a lot of guys, me included... :kicknuts:
The route to AMA success is not necessarily though the club racing world anymore. There was that time when it was, but it's not like it was cheap then either in comparative terms.
Quote from: weggieman on March 24, 2007, 11:29:05 AM
Take the Honda situation in consideration and what do you have for results? Everyone is a few more places down in a race that some entered only because it's the 200 they won't be racing it the rest of the season. That will help boost the privateers chances but we'll see how many run up front and for how long.
And FX is a different story, it's supposed to be a heavily modified class. I'm all for the factories flexing their muscles in FX and Superbike.
If a privateer wants to race in those classes he should know what he's up against. I just think supersport should be supersport I guess.
Well, what IS supersport? CCS will tell you they developed it with Roger Edmonson before he put it in the AMA program in 1987. And current CCS supersport allows no starters and a lot of other things. Full replacement fork cartridges and so on.
Correct, supersport is not what it used to be. It should return to those days though.............let's make riders, not people who can spend the most, win in that class.
You could run a pure production class and the factories will still win. They hire the best riders, the best mechanics, the best suspension peeps etc.. Money will ALWAYS win in racing.
Exactly.........
it is about how much money is in the bike results are always like this.
factory team
semi factory team
performance shop team
the guy down the street team like me comes on a 30 year old pick up truck and everything i got fits on an 8ft bed,and a 8 year old bike with over 20,000 racing miles on the same engine and everything else on the bike.
Well if they do decide to run USGPRU 125 as a suport class, go out and buy a 125. I don't think any factories are going to enter. Cheap class to run and more fun than you can imagine.
The 250's didn't work, they won't go to 125's.
Quote from: Mongo on March 26, 2007, 05:30:05 PM
The 250's didn't work, they won't go to 125's.
125s are at 2 rounds this year.
ISTR the 250s were dropped because the manufacturers did not want the class. ISTR the 250 class running for about 20 years. Not too bad for a class that didn't work.
Celtic racing is a really bad example as Barry and Mark Rozema are anythign but new to this. Plus they have factory yamaha equipment. Their bikes are bostoms and disalvos equipment from last season with Mark doing the tuning. And Chaz comes from overseas GP racing, so again, not a good example.
>>>>>But back to the subject at hand.....Removing superstock from the lineup is a bittersweet approach to doing things. The problem with superstock is that manufactures starting cranking out limited editin production bikes so they could run upgraded equipment "legally" ala yamaha's r1 le. That was the first step in the demise of the class. And reality is, there is no cost-efficient class in racing. I don't even think the two words go together. Nothing in racing is cost efficient and hi end production bikes made it even harder. If anything, the class should have be spec'd or made ultra-conservative. It would be a better display of equipment potential to the public because a well-prepped superstock bike is still tons better than just stock.
But it raises other problems and issues as well. What is the stepping stone now to the superbike class? and how are you supposed to get a superbike license? The rules for licensing state that you need to compete on the same equipment to qualify for a superbike license. So obviously that will be revised as well. Essentially what they are doing is forcing a superstock racer to step down to supersport or FX.
Whats more useless anyway? Formula extreme or superstock? If anything they should have done away with FX but the market share of 600cc bike owners is too big. Many racers would do supersport and superstock. Now those racers are screwed. I know my plan was to do supersport and superstock. Guess thats gonna change now. And even if I can get a superbike license good luck qualifying. You have 30 rider grids in superbike. Whats going to happen in superbike with no supersport? Are there going to be full grids with 2 waves starts? Nothing sucks more than being in the 2nd wave with a national crowd so I can imagine that will be quite discouraging.
I just think Dingelman was speaking to from the hip. I don't think this is in the riders interest at all. And it certainly isn't to alleviate costs because I can't go race a 20-30K superstock bike in superbike and even expect to be remotely competitive.
If anything shoulda been dropped it shoulda been Formula Extreme. Just look at the grid and you will see that more than 50% of them are supersport bikes anyway.
OK, let's remember this isn't happening over night. We're looking at '09 for the change of classes. there's a lot of stuff to work out yet and plenty of time to do it. Until more is known, don't panic.
Also, if you are an AMA pro licensed rider and have an opinion or rules proposal, get your butt on the AMA web site (riders only page) and submit it to the rules committees. That's the only sure way we know what you guys are thinking. You can talk on here or in the pits but if you make a rules proposal official on the web site we're more likely to look at it.
If you do this, be professional and accurate. If you're just blowing off steam or don't have accurate facts it won't go anywhere.
I would love to leave comments if I had my AMA license but wait.....That was another fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants decision to change points requirements for your pro-expert license at the end of last season. Out of no where they change the pro-expert requirement to 300 points instead of 100 points. I know its a different subject but what BS. I swear, rules are changed without anyone even thinking about the impact it makes on people that plan their lives and racing careers around these rules. I even called the pro-racing department a couple months ago to ask about this point increase for licensing and whoever was in charge that I left a voicemail for never called me back. I was heard allright. And then probably promptly deleted.
If the AMA really cared about "us riders" when it comes to making and changing rules they would have a better way of going about things. Their methods make me think of horseshoes and hand grenades.
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 27, 2007, 10:34:48 PM
I would love to leave comments if I had my AMA license but wait.....
Am I missing something? What credentials did you give the AMA to merit a pro license?
I know how long the 250's ran and why they went away. It wasn't the manufacturers that did them in, it was boring racing and lack of fan interest that did so. Having promoters allow the USGPRU some track time for two rounds is not even close to the AMA adding them as a class.
Agreed, having the USGPRU in the AMA doesn't make them a class. But it takes up space in the AMA Pro event program. So, what is the real difference? Certainly adds to the marketability of someone that is planning on running USGPRU at those events for exposure.
AMA rider rules proposals are limited. I submitted proposals last year, and they were not put on the viewable site as the direction I had with the rules "The proposal that you submitted is a operational/procedure type of proposal, The web site is intended for Technical rules that pertain to the motorcycle. All operational proposals that I receive will be passed on the senior staff for consideration." I wanted a restriction on testing at tracks that are on the schedule similar to other professional racing organizations. Additionally, I felt that testing should only be allowed on available equipment. One can agree or disagree with this. However, I do feel that testing on new bikes in October that aren't even seen in dealerships until January/February don't help AMA event day racing.
Which brings us back to Celtic Racing. I don't believe they were are the Daytona tire test doing work like some of the other teams and riders. Nor do I believe they were offered that opportunity. Chaz is an excellent rider, period. In the US, he has no factory team that he's signed with. Yes, the bike he rode was former factory equipment, but give that bike to a rider further down on the qualifying grid and their result would not have been as good as his even with their experience at Daytona.
What are the six foot one, 205 pounders like me suppose to do now. :lmao:
Quote from: JBraun on March 27, 2007, 11:01:27 PM
Am I missing something? What credentials did you give the AMA to merit a pro license?
I didn't say anything about providing credentials. What I said was that they decided to change the points requirement to get your pro-expert license without taking current racers working towards that license into consideration. 100 points is not a lot and for some can be attained in the first part of the season so that they can hit an AMA round to attempt to qualify in the latter half. My personal plans were to finish out last season as an AM with my titles since that was my first full season of racing and I wanted to accomplish something. My plans for this season were to build my 100 points as fast as possible and get out there to start trying to qualify for supersport and formula extreme. But their changing the points requirement screwed not only me who was basing their plans on the current rules, but also those that were eligible last season with over 100 points but less than 300. I have a few friends that have over 100 points and were planning on trying to qualify for the supersport race in daytona but couldn't because of the point bump with no notification.
We all know how short lived careers can be in this sport, if by the way of finances and not even ability. This rule change sets me back another season unless I am out there every single weekend in the top 10. But last seasons budget isn't the same as this seasons so my chances of making an AMA round are not that great simply based on being able to get to the track that much. And at 29 years old I'm not getting any younger and its hard enough racing against 16 year olds with no mortgage or adult responsibility. I want to get out there while I can and have the ability, ya know? I thought 100 points making the cut-off was good enough. Apparently the officials at hand didn't think so.
I just don't get the rational for the point requirement change. It's like they are trying to keep the local guys or the guys that can only do a handful of rounds out of the picture. That just hurts the local scene and keeps local supporters from showing up at ama race days. 100 expert class points is a pretty significant showing of ability. And if you can make the qualifying grid why isn't that good enough? Why the points increase to 300? It is just making it more difficult for the people that already have planned their lives around this rule. And it screws those people that were previosly eligible under the 100 point rule who don't have 300.
If I would have known this rule was going to come to fruition at the end of the season I would have gotten out of the am class as fast as possible and made enough points last year to already have my AMA license in my hand. But no, they change a major rule with no notification to the racing community and screwed up a whole bunch of people. If I knew this rule was coming in october I would changed my license status last spring to be eligible before the end of the season. I can't help but feeling shafted here.
The same people that are supposedly "helping" us racers are really hurting us by changing rules in closed door meetings with no survey of the current racers and what their feelings are on the change. It is their series and they can make the rules but we are the ones spending god-awful amounts of money to make it to the track each weekend to pay their entry and licensing fees. At least they could do is survey us or provide ample notification of a rule change.
I know this is off topic from the superstock class elimination but it is just another example how we get impacted by rule changes, for better or for worse.
If you haven't raced a full season as an Expert you're not ready for AMA no matter how fast you are (or think you are). That's just all there is to it. The new requirements are specifically to keep people like you out until you're ready.
They're not keeping any local guys out. They're not keeping any fast guys out. They are keeping out inexperienced riders.
2-3 years ago, the AMA were making exceptions, and had way too many issues arise. It is my understanding that they tightened up the requirements so they could enforce all the rules across the board fairly and without bias.
It's a wise thing to work closely with the AMA officials so that they know who you are and understand your dedication to the sport. It's not a big deal to start an open dialogue, they want and need club racers to move up, they also need to make sure they are qualified.
At 29, you will most likely always be some sort of privateer. So what? Do you love the sport? Good. It's motivation to communicate with sponsors and let them know how you feel and how you can help them promote and market their product. (Which does not necessarily need to be MC related). Sponsorship is the best way to offset costs.
To be at that level of racing, (even as a hobby), is both expensive and requires you to work at it, as I am sure you know. Don't think factory riders are just sitting on their gilded bums between race weekends either. They are employees of the teams, and as such are required to train, do promotional events, be a part of the team prep and set up, test tires, brakes, attend meetings, etc.
Yeah, there are a thousand guys who want to be in their shoes, but they got there through perseverance and dedication. To swim in their pond, you need to have the same.
Good luck you to and your effort. Success is a sweet reward.
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 28, 2007, 11:29:11 AM
I didn't say anything about providing credentials. What I said was that they decided to change the points requirement ...
I thought you were trying to say you'd have a pro license if they hadn't changed the rules.
I'm sure you know this if you've done your research, but there's more to it than scoring 100 points in your home series. The AMA licensing points system is tricky, and takes things like grid sizes into account.
I'm with Mongo on this one. A full season as an expert, and probably a few rounds in some other pro series would be the minimum before you get on an AMA grid.
I admire your enthusiasm, honestly. But yellow plate to AMA pro is one hell of a leap.
Oh, and as I've said before, be careful how you reply to things on these forums and such, because you never know who is lurking about, maybe even folks in high places with a bit of pull? :biggrin:
I know for me it was never my goal to race any AMA events. I just wanted to race as much as possible when ever I could, with any organization that was closest to me. CCS, CRA, CMRA, whatever. I had a 600 and would race 7-8 races a weekend, 2-3 weekends a year. I wanted to get to expert as fast as possible just to race with faster racers and a deeper field.
Doing an AMA was not the driving force – racing was. In the process of doing this, in one expert season (second season overall) I accumulated enough expert advancement points to gain an AMA license. I had enough to gain my Superbike license but since I only had a 600 and it was $150 more so, I did not.
I really had no idea about the AMA and basically did it just because one of my race buddies was doing it and asked me. I guess I don't understand the concept of doing as little expert club racing as possible with the intent to gain an AMA license.
I certainly would not blame the AMA for the change in requirements. Even with the recent changes I would still be eligiable with what I did back in 2000. Any expert racer who is marginally dedicated can still obtain an AMA license pretty easily. You just have to be dedicated to doing so.
I was 31 when I started
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 28, 2007, 11:29:11 AM
unless I am out there every single weekend in the top 10
good luck qualifing for ama as a non top 10 ex! :lmao:
Quote from: Mongo on March 28, 2007, 11:46:11 AM
If you haven't raced a full season as an Expert you're not ready for AMA no matter how fast you are (or think you are). That's just all there is to it. The new requirements are specifically to keep people like you out until you're ready.
They're not keeping any local guys out. They're not keeping any fast guys out. They are keeping out inexperienced riders.
Sean, I'm not going to argue with you about my competence and ability to compete with these guys. We had combined events with am and experts and I finished qualified and finished in the top 10 against people with ama credentials. I also started from the 2nd wave in every race last season and caught and passed many experts every time. So please don't point the finger at me saying I am inexperienced and not ready and my argument isn't valid. Thats not even the discussion or argument at hand. I could have stepped up and ran with the experts all last season and would have had this licensing point change been made public knowledge in the racing community. If I would have heard a "Hey, the AMA is changing rules for pro-expert licensing so those that are eligible or want to be better get on it" annoucement at one of our rider meetings or on a forum board, I would have acted accordingly and be licensed right now. But the change was sprang on us at the end of the season with no prior announcement and I am saying that is BS. As far as I know, a bulletin of the change was never even printed in the AMA mag I get every month. The rule change is just unfair on several levels.
And they are keeping people out. I don't know how you can say they are not. If you can make the qualifying grid and have a proven record, which 100 points demonstrates, then why isn't that good enough? Why the 300 point increase? It just puts a stranglehold on those people that have the speed and ability to compete at that level. And it slows down the progression of that persons career that others didn't have to deal with.
Every person out there, especially all the teenagers we have on the grid now, all got their license under the 100 point rule. And many of them didn't race a full season as an expert either. Don't make me start quoting names because I won't. I just know people on the ama grid who were very briefly licensed experts that were granted ama licenses. I don't think that changing the license requirement to 300 points is going to make things any safer.
I am hijacking this thread and I don't mean to be. This should be a separte topic.
The overall point is that the AMA makes rule changes with not doing any kind of impact analysis to see how this will effect future competitors. I can understand this rule applying to newly licensed amatuers/novices just getting started but to lump everyone in that was already working towards their license is unfair. There should have been an exception clause written in to the rule requirement but the just decided to shaft everyone, inlcuding those experts who already have over 100 points but just didn't apply before the new rule took place.
Quote from: robsob on March 28, 2007, 12:53:36 PM
good luck qualifing for ama as a non top 10 ex! :lmao:
I think you missed the point of that statement. I am talking about point building to get the pro-expert license and where you would need to finish to accumulate those points and how often you would have to race. But I do agree that if you come in 10th in club racing you will never make an ama grid.
Dude, you still control your own destiny. If racing in the AMA is truly what your goal is then make it happen. If you are indeed as qualified as you state you are then go out and make it happen. Yes, the rules were changed with no prior warning. Comparing yourself to anyone else only sets you up for disappointment. It is what it is. Go out and make it happen is the only response I have.
Quote from: G 97 on March 28, 2007, 01:05:00 PM
Dude, you still control your own destiny. If racing in the AMA is truly what your goal is then make it happen. If you are indeed as qualified as you state you are then go out and make it happen. Yes, the rules were changed with no prior warning. Comparing yourself to anyone else only sets you up for disappointment. It is what it is. Go out and make it happen is the only response I have.
Of course I am not going to quit or give up, the rule change is just an unfortunate setback. I'm just voicing opinion and feeling, which is one reason we have forum boards.
Seems like this is a very hot topic but it really boils down to just two very different ideas:
How to make top level racing more accessible,
The competence of the AMA especially as regards racing.
To the first point, " top level " racing will always be expensive and exclusive. Even with the huge growth of NASCAR and the incredible amount of money it attracts, major teams are being sent home for failing to qualify. 55+ entries for 44 qualified spots is an enviable position to be in if you are NASCAR or a NASCAR promoter. They got there by having everything run by the France family. They change the rules without notice to insure competitiveness, sometimes from race to race. The important difference between NASCAR and the AMA is that NASCAR cultivates the " cult of personality ", as well as brand loyalty. The drivers, and to a great extent the crews, are given every chance to become well know and popular with fans. And that all ties in to the television package period. Everyone in NASCAR MAKES money. Just look at the $ for the last place finisher at Bristol or similar venue. I've seen the Childress home ( RCR ) and it rivals any castle in Europe. It takes a lot of money to get started but once you're there it is a sweet deal for drivers crews and owners.
As to the AMA, personally I think they have ridden rough shod over racers as long as I can remember. Crooked isn't the right word for the past administrations and the courts have consistently found them guilty of every type of misrepresentation and connivance. Further, their regard for racer safety is non-existent, ( air fence fund anyone ? ) How they have become the folks that run motorcycle racing in the US is a tragedy. A very poor television package, little or no regard for riders and crew, unresponsive in the extreme, and of course, controlled by the big 4. It is possible to make motorcycle racing profitable just look at SuperCross. But with the current lack of vision I just can't see the AMA capable of doing so.
I wonder what would happen of ASRA put on races at fan accessible tracks, promoted them vigorously, ran them for 1.5 to 3 hours, 1 rider only, had 3 or more pit stops , actively sought out the safest track standards possible, and managed to get a good TV deal?
:preachon:
You guys are funny. Running with people with an AMA license is nothing sorry. As for the rest of the list of AMA offenses, you guys weren't around 10 years ago were you? It's night and day different now and getting better.
Quote from: Mongo on March 28, 2007, 02:23:28 PM
You guys are funny. Running with people with an AMA license is nothing sorry.
Thanks for the belittlment. You need to examine your words or statements a little more carefully before making them. No one appreciates condescedning comments.
And if that doesn't work out for you, you might need to go back to moderating your own forum board.
Quote from: Mongo on March 28, 2007, 02:23:28 PM
You guys are funny. Running with people with an AMA license is nothing sorry. As for the rest of the list of AMA offenses, you guys weren't around 10 years ago were you? It's night and day different now and getting better.
+1
Things are getting a little testy here..........
Listen, Mongo knows of what he speaks, he didn't just fall off the turnip truck. We both sit on the "new" AMA roadracing rules committee and along with the 12 other members are working hard to get things as they should be. it's not going to happen overnight. As mongo said, "you weren't around ten years ago were you?" It's a lot different today.
You're upset about a rule change. That happens, and yes sometimes without prior notice. Fact is AMA needed to set a higher standard for racers. That's not a bad thing. More experience won't hurt anyone.
From the sounds of your posts it doesn't seem as you were ready for an AMA license. You need to remember this is a professional race series not a club series. With one season as an amateur and a partial season as an expert does not give you enough experience to run AMA pro. I'm not talking about talent , I'm talking experience. Yes, you may know people that hold a license they got under the old system, that does not mean they were ready for it. Obviously AMA changed their mind about it and changed the rule. No harm, no foul, go out and get the points.
Not to be condescending or anything else but most likely you do not have a future in AMA pro racing as a factory rider anyway so what is the hurry to get into it? Just to say you hold an AMA pro license?
Trust me, you will appreciate all the experience you can get when you get on the track with a group of top AMA pros. They are far and away so much faster than anyone you have ridden against to this point.
All and all the whole rule change was in the name of safety because there were too many people getting AMA licenses before they were truly ready for it.
Dave.....unfortunately the rule proposal page is a "technical" rule page only.
There are issues that many people want to discuss with AMA that are operational but so far AMA has held tight to the idea that those issues are not to be discussed beyond the board room. It's unfortunate but until that mind set is changed that's the way it will be.
Thanks for the considered reply, Gordie. I was actually thinking of you when I wrote my post watching what's written. :biggrin:
Of course we know you and Mongo did not fall off the turnip truck, it was a horse drawn wagon, fercrissake. :wtf: :biggrin:
Wagon? I though it was just a couple sticks pulled by a horse.
I'm telling you... it'll be the USPGRU 125 class. Save this thread so I can say "I told you so".
I keep saying it but nobody seems to be listening. :biggrin:
Sure we have 2 rounds THIS year... if all goes well, just wait and see what next year holds. :biggrin:
no wagon, no sticks, no horses.........just us horses asses running around...
Quote from: weggieman on March 28, 2007, 07:22:06 PM
Not to be condescending or anything else but most likely you do not have a future in AMA pro racing as a factory rider anyway so what is the hurry to get into it? Just to say you hold an AMA pro license?
Who said i was trying to become a factory rider? Where did that come from? All I said that it is messed up that the license requirement has changed from 100 points to 300 points with no notification to current racers or those planning to get their ama license. I am not trying to get my license to pose, so that I can say I have it. That couldn't be further off base and I don't even know where such a statement would come from. My point was that the whole point requirement change threw a major wrench in my plans. And I think the point change is bs an non-merited. It's not going to make things any safer and all its going to do is keep newer riders from entering the series as soon as they are physically capable with speed and ability. And it puts more financial strain on privateer hopefuls as it increases the amount of time it will take to get there. In some cases finances are limited so getting out there as soon as possible is a priority to gain the support of sponsors and the sort. Plus you want to do whatever you can before the finances or your body wear out.
But whatever. this is a fruitless argument. All I was looking for was some agrement with the fact that the un-notified rule/point change was unfair to riders already working a course of progression towards their pro-expert license advancement. I didn't need anyone telling me I'll never be a factory rider or that I need more experience. If I have 100 points and can put down the lap times I think I earned the right to have a spot on a pro grid. But apparently not.
I would like to see an official statement from the ama board of officials as to why the change was made and why there isn't a clause in place for current expert licensed riders who didn't apply even though they were eligible as well as those that were expert licensed prior to the rule change. Because these are the people that are getting screwed.
It just seems you're awfully fired up over a rule only delays your license a little longer.
You talk about your plans ............. which were? I guess I don't understand why this upsets you so much. I haven't read anything in your posts to explain your rush to get into AMA racing.
Sorry, no agreement here on your gripe.
I'll change this argument a bit.
The AMA needs to focus its efforts onto the riders and teams that are invested in the AMA series. Any good business puts effort into keeping its current customers happy.
The AMA Pro Road Racing Series has several factory teams, some satellite teams, and some support teams. There even some good independent teams. Yes, there are new AMA riders entering, or potentially entering, the AMA competition paddock, but they still need to show up and compete, put down the lap times, and make it into the show. In dirt track, it's hard to make it into the show. I think dirt track is better for that.
Honestly, the manufacturers have done a lot to offer a good chunk of change at regional events where locals should shine and could make money back. This includes additional contingencies from tire manufacturers, etc. in CCS, WERA, AFM, and so on. Those places are great marketing opportunities for amateur and expert road racers to develop actual programs that might be of value to their sponsors and fun for friends and family without the excessive costs that occur at AMA events.
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 28, 2007, 02:46:13 PM
Thanks for the belittlment. You need to examine your words or statements a little more carefully before making them. No one appreciates condescedning comments.
And if that doesn't work out for you, you might need to go back to moderating your own forum board.
If you don't want condescension then don't make stupid comments or make comments proving you have no clue what you're talking about. It's a simple formula.
Wow, your last post proves my point even further. You really are clueless.
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 28, 2007, 11:40:57 PM
My point was that the whole point requirement change threw a major wrench in my plans.
OK. But how about the hundreds of others already racing and part of the series who perhaps asked for the change? The reason you are getting beat up over your comments, is because this sounds awful self-serving, and not related to the good of the sport.
Quote from: onedwn5up on March 28, 2007, 11:40:57 PM
And I think the point change is bs an non-merited.
Based on what? Personal opinion? I am not trying to be obtuse here. You need to understand that 2 people who have responded to you in this thread are part of the Rules Committee, which is made up of a number of industry people. They take the rule changes
very seriously and everyone on that committee has a great deal of background in the sport.
They did not get up one morning and decide,"Hey lets make some racers really angry and upset, lets make it harder to get an AMA license!"
Mongo sees first hand who has potential and who does not as part of his daily life as he runs WERA with his wife. weggieman, AKA Gordon Lunde Sr, has been a racer, race director/official, parent of a racer, mentor, creator & life force behind the Wegman Benefit Fund to support injured racers, and now (in his "retirement"), AMA rules board member. These guys have made this sport their career.
They are not asking you to agree with the change, but you should probably respect the fact that when these changes are made, it is not arbitrary nor is it with the intent to throw "a major wrench" onto any racers plans. Instead, it is to make the sport more safe, more marketable, or a combination of both.
It's funny, I'd actually agree with him on the change messing up plans if the posts weren't so self centered and totally ignorant of what the sport at the Pro level is like.
Yeah, but he's stomping his feet. You know that every single racer in the AMA paddock is a consummate professional. :biggrin:
Another small thing to take into consideration is that prior to the AMA making changes to their licensing points requirements they changed their percentage numbers for qualifying.
Supersport used to be at 115% then it went to 112% it is now at 110%. SuperBIke went from 112% to 110% to 108%. Looking at it this way the AMA simply re-aligned their licensing obtainment qualifications to reflect more accurately to what their qualifying cuts offs are.
One thing is for sure you are getting a ton of informed and knowledgeable feedback. Whether this feedback fits into your agenda or not, is up to you. I guess I can't understand the concept of trying to race as least as possible at the club level in order to obtain an AMA license.
Quote from: Mongo on March 29, 2007, 10:14:07 AM
It's funny, I'd actually agree with him on the change messing up plans if the posts weren't so self centered and totally ignorant of what the sport at the Pro level is like.
It's a little hard not to be self-centered when the changes effect you and your personal goals and plans. I wouldn't care if I was 16 and had my whole motorcycle racing life in front of me. But I'm not. I'm almost 30 and this change means that it will take me another season or two to get there as well as the additional costs of spending that time at the club level rather than putting those funds into a pro-level effort. its no secret that a pro-level effort requires siginificant financial backing or investment.
My plans were originally:
season 1, 2005: first season starting at lrrs which uses novice/am/ex groups. raced novice, won 6 of 10 and advanced to am and did a small handful of races.
season 2, 2006: Entered about 80 or so events, won about 65 of them in 3 separate regions and 7 lrrs am titles along the way.
Season 3, 2007: advance to expert, get my 100 required points, obtain ama license, attempt to qualify at east coast ama rounds Mid-Ohio, VIR, Road Atlanta & Road America rounds.
Season 4, 2008: Full season AMA effort depending on 2007 results.
These were my plans. This is what I have been focusing on since early last year. So yeah, I am upset that I can't follow that course of action that I laid out for myself. Like I said, if I was 15 or 16 years old I wouldn't care. But being that I am 29 this means that it will be another season or two until I have enough points to just attempt to qualify and who knows if my ability will be the same at that point. I might be worn out by then or be out of money to do it. It just stinks that a rule change may have closed my window of opportunity and it is upsetting. I won't stop riding or racing or working towards my goal, it's just upsetting that I won't be able to do it as planned. And had I known that this change was coming, I would have gotten out of the AM class at the start of last season and had enough expert points to get my pro license before the change went into effect. I could have changed my plans had I known a rule change was coming and I am sure there were others that won multiple AM titles that would have done the same. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If the timing where so important in your plan why did you stay in the AM ranks so long. Most Org's will bump a deserving racer from AM to EX if warranted, and requested, soundsl like wouldnt have this problem if you had moved up sooner.
AM results mean nothing to the AMA... you had to have known this. Also I would think the learning curve would be steeper racing against experts and occasionally some of the same folks you'd be racing at AMA events... so how does beating up on the "rooks" for your 2006 season prepare you for a pro racing career?
I agree the change sucks being that you had this all planned out, but I think if your intent was to be at the pro ranks ASAP, an overall accelerated plan would have worked better. You dont get from A to Z by hanging out at "B"...
The best way to get to your goal would be to run a national series like ASRA or the WERA nationals. Running LRRS is fine, but it's still regional. Not at all the same as traveling far and wide, dealing with all of the different organizations, seeing new tracks, and doing testing in between. Running regionals will not prepare you for the AMA. Doing a national circuit will.
Seriously, at 29, your skills will only get better, if you keep learning. You can mature into a self-confident experienced rider. Then you will be ready for the pro ranks. Trying to short-cut the process is never beneficial, unless you are an extraordinary talent. Could you run out of money? Yes, but then you'll learn how to garner sponsorship. Will you get hurt? Maybe, but that's a risk all riders, at every level will and has taken. Use the blocks in the road as opportunities to learn something new. It will make you a better rider and a better ambassador for the sport.
we had a good group of competitors in 06 and the racing at the front of the am group was in many cases faster than half the expert field at most of the regional events. I enjoyed this competition and since I had never finished anything to completion before (changing classes and series previously in everything else I raced from motox to roadracing and never racing in 1 series enough to build points towards a title) hung it out since this rule change wasn't on the plate publicly. I started as an am and wanted to finish the season that way so I could for once have something to show for my efforts. And I wanted to get that experience under my belt before moving on towards the next goal. I was just taking things by steps. I know am results dont mean anything to the ama and i never said they should or did. I think my plans and expectations were pretty reasonable in both time and experience. I also didn't race only LRRS events. I raced in the southwest, midatlantic and northeast. I am also running as much as the ASRA series as possible. An unfortunate mechanical issue kept me off the grid in daytona but I would have been out there otherwise. I know you won't get anywhere running around one track.
This is my last post on this subject. I'm sorry for hijacking this thread and changing the direction of discussion. This should have been a separate thread all together. Sorry.
Hey, discussion is good, even in hijacked threads. :biggrin:
It's just many of us has been around the block a time or two, so when someone is in a hurry, they will get the prudence and patience talk. Racers burn out fast because they get over eager and over reach. It's to the benefit of the sport to keep as many talented riders around as possible.
Good luck with your plans. And most of all: remember to have fun.
I helped hijack my own thread!! :wtf:
65 0f 85 event wins doesnt sound competitive... sounds more like an ass whoopin.
regardless, good luck this season... see ya at topeka
Good luck wherever you go.......