OK, I know at Blackhawk, they always have a Friday Pratice. Will Heartland Park or Road America have a Thursday practice? Just trying to plan ahead.
Thanks!
Heartland has one on Thursday that the track is putting on. NESBA will have trackdays Wed. and Thur before RA.
I put a link in the calender of events section of the forum for the practices at Heartland Park and Blackhawk Farms. You save money by buying it online before you get there.
Thanks for the reply! Ouch, that's an expensive practice but it is RA.
Cool, found it for HPT. Thanks Dave!
You'll have to have a membership fee for NESBA too, I believe.
Yup, already have that. Actually headed for Road Atlanta to play over Easter. We invited Scotty but his free time is non existant.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 16, 2007, 04:22:11 PM
You'll have to have a membership fee for NESBA too, I believe.
Yeah, I understand that myself too...LOL!
You maybe able to sweet talk someone at NESBA for a one day event thing. It will cost acouple dollars. I feel that CCS should work something out with them for one of the dates. It's not like they don't do this to us every year.
+1
Last year Sportbike Track Time let you ride the events before a race weekend with out buying a membership and the day did not cost anymore.
I guess it all comes down to perspective. Back in the day -Super Dave will confirm this – there was no opportunity to get on the track at Road America on a motorcycle outside of the CCS-Formula USA-NASBA or the AMA race weekends. The option simply did not exist. No other organization existed or took the time to bother to rent RA.
I guess I can't comprehend how NESBA can be held accountable or looked upon in a negative manner with regards to scheduling a track day at Road America.
One other note is that NESBA is a non for profit organization. NO ONE GETS PAID OR DRAWS A SALARY FROM NESBA........ I, myself do this on a 100% volunteer basis like everyone else. I do not get compensated for any of my time just like anyone else involved with NESBA. I do it for the utter love of the sport. I even purchased and paid for (even though NESBA has partners) several sets of my brake pads, several sets of tires, body work etc out of my own pocket like the rest of the NESBA "people".
Crap, I have MY OWN 1998 GMC van (it is even green) with 212,000 miles on it with a $6,000 trailer. What do the other orgs use for track vehicles???????
What more do you want?
nesba is a great org. thanks to the people who volunteer their time to keep it alive, it has helped expand the sport like for example me getting my street squid friends on the track. more power to you bro!!!
Quote from: G 97 on March 16, 2007, 11:36:03 PMBack in the day
I'm still trying to figure out when back in the day was...
It wasn't so long ago that there wasn't such a thing as a "track day organization".
Tom better sell his nice rig than. I think that I heard he is the new NESBA mid west guy.People come to the track how they like, it is not because what they make off of the trackdays. How many people that are racing have nicer hauler than the house they live in.
This wasn't about one trackday or another it was about paying 75.00 dollar to become a member and than paying another 190.00 for a trackday to get pratice for RA. NESBA use to have a non member pricing listed on their site.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 17, 2007, 07:46:42 AM
I'm still trying to figure out when back in the day was...
It wasn't so long ago that there wasn't such a thing as a "track day organization".
Back in the day when outside of the AMA, CCS NASBA, FUSA, Code you could not get on the track.
Yeah, and it also was not long ago that Pluto was found not to be a planet.
And it is even sooner that not long ago I changed my clocks to reflect Daylight savings time.
Bias ply DOT race tires and slicks.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 17, 2007, 10:05:48 AM
Bias ply DOT race tires and slicks.
Now you are aging yourself. LOL
Rodney,
The thing you have to remember is that Tom's rig has nothing to do with NESBA. It is his and Carol's. They purchased it with their own resources outside of NESBA. NESBA does not have any vested interest or any equity position involved with it. No different than my van. My point was and is that NESBA is a not for profit entity and is not driven by a profit motive. Nothing more – nothing less.
The reason I brought this up is that you made a prior statement: " It's not like they don't do this to us every year." and
" Last year Sportbike Track Time let you ride the events before a race weekend with out buying a membership and the day did not cost anymore."
I took this to mean that you are inferring that NESBA is being unjust or is mis-treating you in some way by having a $75.00 membership fee. Maybe I took it the wrong way??? Believe it or not a great many racers are grateful towards NESBA for being able to secure these dates. Like I stated prior, at one time, it was not an option for anyone.
I don't know what else I can tell you Rodney other than I do the best I can to accommodate. :cheers:
Yep, we split the Midwest into separate regions and formed a Mid Central Region that Tom and Carol are heading up. Which begs the question: "how is it possible for the Mid Central region to be geographically positioned West of the Mid West region?" :err: LOL
Quote from: G 97 on March 17, 2007, 10:33:03 AM
Now you are aging yourself. LOL
I was aged before you started. LOL!
Quote from: Super Dave on March 17, 2007, 10:43:19 AM
I was aged before you started. LOL!
I once heard a great reply from a friend of mine by the name of Derrick. In fact I heard this reply while in the paddock at a Barber event. I think it has some merit here. :lmao: :biggrin:
I don't know how this got off track however nobody is bad mouthing NESBA. I'm already a member. I was commenting that it will be a expensive practice day. Sorry, but I'm used to paying like $80 or so for practice, not double that. If the only way to get practice at RA is to do a NESBA track day, then so be it.
It's all part of the fun thing we call racing. I'm also not looking forward to paying $150 for practice courtesy of Trackaddix. However, I've never been to those tracks so I'll pay it.
Garth it would be nice if Nesba still had the non-member pricing. If I remember right it wasn't that much more you just did not get the benefits.You and the other CRs might not get paid but you get a lot of track time for free. I know you pay something for parts but you would be doing that anyway. Plus you put that your doing something that you love.
I agree track days have help a lot of racers myself included. It seems that it may have also hurt the Race orgs. with giving people another way to get on the track. My problem is that I don't plan on riding with NESBA this year and I would think that there are others that would like ride this one day. I live close enough that I will just go another day before the event,but for other they may not be able to.
As for haulers some people like BIG houses others like to be a little more comfortable at the track. What I paid for my bike and trailer would have bought my house. I am very happy for Tom and Carol they are great people.
Some of my favorite people are NESBIANS..........
not that theres anything wrong with that.........
Paul
Polar-Optics
Quote from: RCR_531 on March 16, 2007, 05:01:01 PM
You maybe able to sweet talk someone at NESBA for a one day event thing.
I think you just cut your chances of the sweet talk thing working...
:biggrin:
:pop:
Its not that I won't pay for the trackday that is 185.00 or even pay a little higher as a non-member. I just don't want to pay 260.00 for the day. Just like paying 150.00 with Track addict you could get it for 99.00 if you join their group. I guess it all works out one way or another. Been here long enough. NEASBA ,Sportbike Track Time, Track Addict and all the other trackdays have their good points. Ride and be happy I guess
Dylanfan53 that is fine. I am not looking for a hand out. Just something that would be good for all non-NESBA members.
So, are there deals for sweet talkin'? If there is, then that's a problem. If it's non profit and it isn't driven by profits, why not offer licensed road racers an actual published price that is reasonable?
I'm on the side that I know what it takes to rent tracks, as I've been in that position before, and everything in road racing is expensive. But having sweet deal pricing that isnt' available to the general members, etc...well, that's when people aren't happy.
Just a thought.
I've rented Blackhawk Farms Raceway probably over twenty times, which probably was well over $100k...but I still go on-line and pay for practice, garages, electric like everyone else.
Now that would be incentive for everyone to join NESBA membership: don't join and get a special deal. Hmmmm.....
There's something I just don't get here. The membership buys something. (insert - AGAIN - list of bennies) It has value. Whether your intention is to ride one day or 10 days, that's your decision. NESBA still has to pay for those bennies. NESBA still has to pay to rent the track no matter who chooses to ride or not ride.
Why is this any different than a non-racer saying, "I can only do one or two days this season, so I shouldn't have to buy a membership"? How many times do we pay for something just so we can get the part we really want? Why should a racer feel that they are entitled to getting more than what a track day rider receives?
I only want to do one round of the CCS/ASRA series, what do you think the chances are that I can race with out buying a license?
I'm not trying to be dificult here as racers are more than welcome and we want them at our events but in reality and at the end of the day they are all riders on the track. :cheers:
No deals. Buy a membership or chose to not ride. There seems to be a misconception that NESBA intentionally grabbed these days in an attempt to benefit off the CCS event that was scheduled. Not true. The simple matter is when we first started going to RA these days were the only ones available to us to rent. They've been successful days. Our members love to ride RA. If some CCS guys want to come out and use our event for practice thats great too. But that's not the reason we hold them. The reason we hold them is because our members want us to as evidenced by the amount who attend these days. These are the same members who pay to join every year.
I've already engaged in this one before with Garth. I think even a couple times over several years even.
I can't be convinced that the only opportunity for NESBA has been Road America in April immediately before a CCS race. That type of date has been extremely risky for CCS even.
They may have been successful, but they have also been successful because a reasonable number of racers, racers that spend to be successful, bring their hard earned money to NESBA in the form of purchased memberships and purchasing track days that have been placed as the only opportunity to get open practice.
Deals? Well, there again, there have been opportunities where dates were closed, but "some" were able to get in when it was closed to others. Maybe you have changed this now, but it has happened in the past. Does anyone want to recognize that gorrilla or just deny it?
Here you go Garth
What is a "One Event" License?
Answer - As the name implies, use this form to apply for a temporary CCS license that is good for one weekend only.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 17, 2007, 04:21:45 PM
I've already engaged in this one before with Garth. I think even a couple times over several years even.
I can't be convinced that the only opportunity for NESBA has been Road America in April immediately before a CCS race. That type of date has been extremely risky for CCS even.
They may have been successful, but they have also been successful because a reasonable number of racers, racers that spend to be successful, bring their hard earned money to NESBA in the form of purchased memberships and purchasing track days that have been placed as the only opportunity to get open practice.
Deals? Well, there again, there have been opportunities where dates were closed, but "some" were able to get in when it was closed to others. Maybe you have changed this now, but it has happened in the past. Does anyone want to recognize that gorrilla or just deny it?
+1
Dave if we are so awful why did you try and parasite off of our events for so long before being told to go run your own business on your own dime? Seems to me you have other motives in this discussion but maybe that's just me.
Believe what you want about how or why the events were scheduled like they were. Or how they came to be. Seems to me you are calling me a liar. Why would I lie? Why would I even care? If we'd scheduled them to take advantage of the CCS weekend I'd come out and say so. Fact is we didn't. I'm really not sure why you chose to call me a liar on that considering you have absolutely nothing to back up your assertion.
As to NESBA members also being CCS license holders, I'm sure there is some truth to that. What's your point? That the NESBA days at RA owe their success to racers coming out for practice? Judging from the level of complaining I see on here I kind of doubt it. Our Advanced class rarely sells out at RA. Unless of course you mean that CCS racers might actually only ride at a track day I or B pace and only ride in those classes? Which also shoots down your other assertion that Garth is letting in CCS guys when the day is full. I didn't see an RA date sell out last year in the A class so how is he letting people slide?
I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.
Quote from: Dutch110 on March 17, 2007, 05:06:57 PM
I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.
Ouch! :biggrin:
I think it's all a crock of shit! CCS should have there owne dedicated pactice day. I dont want to pay a silly membership fee and pay additional practice fees to another organization. CCS should sponsor the entire weekend and let the track day clubs find there owne weekends. I've been to track days on the west coast and only had to pay to ride, without a silly membership fee. Bye the way where does that money go?Guess I'll just have to accept the crap if I want track time on the East Coast.
(sorry just venting off a little steam)
Good day to all!
Where does the money go? To pay bills. To give you an idea I believe JUST track rental is over 10k per day for RA. Then add in corner workers, then medical, then insurance, then gate people and security, then then then then....
BTW - $80 for a day of practice unless you have so many riders you get no viable track time is ludicrous.
Quote from: Dutch110 on March 17, 2007, 05:06:57 PM
Dave if we are so awful why did you try and parasite off of our events for so long before being told to go run your own business on your own dime? Seems to me you have other motives in this discussion but maybe that's just me.
I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.
" Hulk Hogan climbs up onto the ropes. Uh-oh!! Look out! He's going for a half-triple-twist-back-flipped-skull-crusher drop kick!! "
They tried to teach me how to type. Did not work.
I give 2 thumbs up to NESBA, their tech. guys in particular who found lots of loose hardware on my bike after a certain shop was done with it. :sleeping2: Old news here, but kudos to Garth and his crews that saved my ass @ R. Am..
Quote from: Dutch110 on March 17, 2007, 05:06:57 PM
Dave if we are so awful why did you try and parasite off of our events for so long before being told to go run your own business on your own dime? Seems to me you have other motives in this discussion but maybe that's just me.
Wow, that's pretty personal. And I was done with arguing.
I'll start history for you, Dutch. I was teaching schools before there were track days. I have been an independant entity renting race tracks for my programs, but I'm small program that doesn't cover itself under the veil of being non-profit, which doesn't mean you don't make a profit.
There were riders that had a need. A need for some different instruction that others couldn't provide, and I had the ability to do it small doses. VIR, Summit Point, Heartland Park Topeka, Blackhawk Farms Raceway, Infineon Raceway, Road America, Putnam Park, Grattan Raceway...these are places where I traveled to work with riders.
Two riders, independently, asked me to help them at two different track days. The first one went fine, the second one was a struggle for various reasons. The rider really struggled, and they had unbelieveable bike issues that they didn't know about. Basically, they had a GSXR600 that was probably slower than an FZR400.
Following that, I've been asked not to help at NESBA events, and I've done that.
If you'd like to be personal, at least focus on your history.
Quote from: Dutch110 on March 17, 2007, 05:06:57 PM
I think there are definitely a few gorillas in the room. Unfortunately it seems like someone shaved them down and attempted to teach them how to type.
Dutch MacKenzie
Director of Mid Atlantic Operations
NESBA...non profit...
Um, wow...
Quote from: Mongo on March 18, 2007, 09:07:45 AM
Where does the money go? To pay bills. To give you an idea I believe JUST track rental is over 10k per day for RA. Then add in corner workers, then medical, then insurance, then gate people and security, then then then then....
BTW - $80 for a day of practice unless you have so many riders you get no viable track time is ludicrous.
Totally agreed.
However, I know of quite a few race tracks that offer practice days prior to events, Road America being one of them. Unless someone has rented the date or dates.
Don't we get some "regular" practice sessions with CCS in the mornings?
Are you saying it will be almost 300 bucks to practice the day before if you're not a NESBA member?
Yeah, Scott, pretty close. Not that much, but close. There will be CCS practice Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
Road America has AMA practice, the AMA doesn't do practice days, but Road America runs one. It costs $200, but it would be less than cost prior to the CCS event at Road America. And it won't be practice, it will be a track day...choose your skill level.
As for CCS renting that date, I'll play devils advocate...for other racing organizations too...
A racing organization is renting a block of days. Their rental rate is based on several things, some of them no always recognizable. Road America is certainly charging CCS a racing rate for the track. They might even be charging them a higher rate because Road America is figuring that they are going to get more spectators in July. If CCS wanted that date, Thursday practice, it might be cost prohibitive. NESBA is renting two dates at a weekday, track day rate. Certain areas might be off limits, etc. Lower rate.
Thanks for the info Dave. Never been there, but I figure I'll take my chances learning it with the "regular" CCS practice then.
Don't have any good recommendations for you. I always struggle learning new tracks, but I never have much of a budget too. One could enter the Team Challenge Solo for $175 and potentially get good track time on Friday. Moto ST is running that weekend too, so the schedule is usually tight. It takes a long time to get the track cleared and a long time to get around. I'm not sure how long the races will be, but I have been in 4 lap sprint races, not shortened because of a schedule even, at Road America. Track time there is a premium.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 19, 2007, 08:13:52 AM
I'll start history for you, Dutch. I was teaching schools before there were track days. I have been an independant entity renting race tracks for my programs, but I'm small program that doesn't cover itself under the veil of being non-profit, which doesn't mean you don't make a profit.
Following that, I've been asked not to help at NESBA events, and I've done that.
If you'd like to be personal, at least focus on your history.
Dave, History lesson 101 ;)
Nonprofits generally do not operate to generate profit. A nonprofit corporation is not prohibited from making a profit, but there are limitations on what it can do with its "profits." NESBA is not operated under the "viel" of anything. It truly is not for profit and is operated under such provisions as stipulated by the IRS.
You having your rider's school in existence prior to trackdays existing really has no merit. NESBA is going on 11 years which is longer than most other track day organizations - but it certainly does not entitle NESBA to anything.
Trackdays were formed because there became a market for them. A lot of riders wanted to experience getting on the track in a non-competitive atmosphere outside of racing. Trackday organizations did not create the trackday rider. The trackday riders created the trackday organizations in order to fulfill a demand in the market place.
I have also extended invites to you to come out and participate in a NESBA event and give instruction as long as it was consistent with NESBA's processes and procedures'. And you declined, stating that NESBA only provided basically a "track time slot" and basically you should be able to utilize this track time in any manner you see fit. You also stated that you don't do trackdays because they are a waste of your resources – tires, fuel, and equipment. As if to say they are beneath you. I never asked you stopped coming - only that you operate under our processes and proceedures just like every other member.
One can also distinguish between economic profit or accounting profit. In any event, NESBA does not operate "under the viel" of being a non-profit.
:)
Quote from: r1owner on March 19, 2007, 10:11:58 AM
Don't we get some "regular" practice sessions with CCS in the mornings?
Are you saying it will be almost 300 bucks to practice the day before if you're not a NESBA member?
STT a month before, if your not a member its about $205.00 including membership so its a little cheaper and you get free lunch and RedBull
Garth, I don't have a beef with you. You're digging for Dutch I guess.
Non-profit, profit. Not sure of what the point is. A for profit company is not guaranteed a profit. But often individuals connotate the concept of a non-profit as something that does not make a profit. NESBA is profitable, and one of the things that's a great example of that is your statement that NESBA has been around for eleven years. Allows NESBA to purchase its insurance in bulk, buy big weekend events, etc. Honestly, I'm very curious why NESBA needs a non-profit status, and why the "non profit" card gets played. But that's for another time. Again, for curiousity, not anything else.
Dutch was so bold to call me a parasite.
You say my history of putting on schools has no merit, but the fact is that I was teaching riders before NESBA existed. Quite simply, riders that schools work with are part of the track day and racing market. Schools are the gateway for some riders to anything on a race track. Some riders use a track day for their gateway. Some riders use track days as their spring board to racing, but they can't race without a school. There is a relationship between everyone. The racing organizations have been hurt the most because they were the exclusive market at one time, but track days and schools provide new outlets for those that want to "ride a race track".
Track days a waste of my resources? Then you decide to put words into my mouth...
Here's a good story, motorcycle related by the players but otherwise not. I had a friend that was wealthy. We'd do something, and then it would get later in the day and he'd say, "Let's go out and eat dinner. We'll go dutch." Well, that means that we each pay for our own dinner. Well, that wasn't going to work for me because I could go home and eat...and I didn't have any money. So, I'd reply that I didn't have any money, because I didn't.
That idea was foreign to him. "Rick, when I say, 'I don't have any money, that means I don't have any money. None in my pocket, none at home. I can't do that."
Similarly, buying an additional track day costs money, tires, gas, and equipment. I'm not wealthy, nor is my family. I do what I can on a shoe string that I don't call a budget because it's usually fluctuating in the down position. So, I recycle used engine oil for diesel and anything I can do to save a few dollars here and there.
Markets...
Yeah, track days were developed as a new niche market. Schools fill a need too. I started offering additional programs for "One-On-One" because there was a market where riders wanted that kind of opportunity for a few reasons.
They can't make a specific date or dates. They aren't learning from osmosis at their track day or racing event.
Twice I did the one on ones at NESBA days. First time was fine, second time the rider struggled and your staff bounced us between groups. These were prearranged with you folks prior. Yeah, it's a track time slot. Doesn't mean that anyones running counter race or what ever, and we've never had issues other places. That's the way that is. I don't know that any other organization has different standards in the multitude of track days from California to the East Coast, so it's really kind of moot. Doesn't really matter, it is the way it is. The welcome mat has been available other places, so those have been the options.
Not every rider will think or feel that they got something special from me, but I know there are riders that we've worked with that have been able to stay involved in the sport longer because of it.
I'm just a school. Ultimately, the riders that we work with stay involved in racing and track days because we give them tools to "not waste their resources", but that allows them to continue spending their money with racing organizations and track day providers...
Even NESBA.
Your welcome.
Dave - as long as you charged riders for instruction that was held at an event where another person or org was paying the bills - yeah, you're a parasite. If you're that good rent the track yourself. If you're not then don't try to sublet on someone else's date.
As for the rest, you really don't know what you're talking about, the vast majority of tracks these days charge a flat rate. Some charge more for weekends, none really care about racing vs practice. Trying to compare a track run day to anyone else running one when the track doesn't pay itself rental is ridiculous. You're effectively trying to say NESBA is bad because they took a date the track could possibly use to run a practice day cheaper than NESBA could afford to. Gee, what would happend if a car team rented the track? Or anyone else not allowing bikes for that matter? Yeah, no bikes on course for any price, yep that's great for the riders.
And guess what, I have no affiliation with any track day org. I just know the bills they have to pay and I'm not trying to make myself look knowledgeable about things where I have no experience. But don't let that stop you.... Also - when you decide to start going on about how you've done it back in the day, answer me one question - when was the last time you paid the bills for an event at Road America?
I've done the track rental thing, Sean. It was fine when we did that. We had a staff of thirteen instructors. I've written the checks, and I've written the checks just like you when the entries didn't cover the cost of the track rental alone.
Road America? No, because I never thought it was a good track to teach at. Maybe WERA should race there? Does it matter? Probably not.
Some people just need to do things in different places at different times. That wasn't my idea, but I was approached by someone that wanted instruction in that way. And that was how that started.
I think the majority of track day riders and racers are just looking to try to improve, but they don't have $1000 to spend, let alone $1500, $5000, or $12000 to rent a track let alone find someone that can show up and help. You've got sub factory teams going to track days for practice too. They could rent the track alone too. It is a slot on the track. If someone decides to bring me to the track with the organizatons approval, another slot is filled and the organization gets help paying their bill that day even more. Everytime this was done, it was at the approval of people that could make those decisions.
I understand the bills that NESBA needs to pay. They charge what they charge. The Road America dates aren't random placement. And that is the feeling of myself and others. Sure, we should band together and rent the track ourself and charge what we want to charge, but that would take more money from our racing "budgets". Back to the traditional challenges.
Odd, I could swear I remember you advertising that you could help people out for a fee at other orgs events. That doesn't sound like riders asking you to do it, it was you asking riders to hire you.
Just because you feel it's a viable business practice doesn't make it any less parasitic.
Dave it got personal when I offered up an explanation as to how those RA dates came to exist on the NESBA calendar and you called me a liar. No one to blame but yourself for that my freind. Very predictably you started lobbing hand grenades when called out. NESBA is horrible, NESBA isn't not for profit, NESBA is the Death Star of track day orgs, NESBA stole my puppy and made me pee my pants. I was genuinely interested in having an intelligent discussion on the matter and informing those less informed as to the realities of the situation concerning the hows and whys surrounding those events. You decided to get passive agressive and go on the attack. I find it incredibly humorous that you now are in shock and awe as to my response. Oh well. I like pie. Good luck in your future endeavors. Really. I mean it.
I don't want to interrupt the warm fuzzies here, but for those seeking other options, there's a trackday (http://www.privatetracktime.com/buell_days/insidepass/event_060707.aspx) at RA on Thursday, June 7th for $150.
Dave, I did not put any words in your mouth. Here is an earlier E-mail that of an exchange we had back in 2003 on this subject. I scanned it in so it has some glitches. What I typed in black what you typed in red. It is a bit of ajumble because of the cut and paste used from prior E-mail that you used to quote me from but it serves its purpose. This is from a 3 page E-mail. Your EXACT words in red at the bottom. "I DON'T DO TRACKDAYS" I have the original I can show you as well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Visionsports, Inc. - Dave Rosno Imailto:visionsprt@netwurx.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 4:32 AM
To: Cloyd Garth
Subject: Re: BFH NESBA event
Dave, Let me try and clarify a few issues.
Concerning the trackside vending issue. I think we are looking at 1\'110 separate issues with this. Supporting dealers are separate from trackside vending. MD racinglMatt Drucker has been the trackside NESBA support business since the inception of the Midwest region. He has attended lOO% of the events over the previous three years. I can tell you that the first two years were a huge struggle with regard to profitability for Matt. In fact he lost money. For this reason, from the begimling we thought it was critical to obtain MD Racings track side service by offering an exclusive agreement in exchange for MattIs commitment to attend 100% of our events. I can't tell you how many venders have requested for NESBA to pay them to provide their services at the track for our members.
But the issue of senring your customers with information is the issue. And the point is that this all takes place on a closed competition course where individuals are responsible for their own actions. He tries to give information, you try to give information, other rillers try to give information,. it is the responsibility of the individual to execute properly. If someone wants me to come give them information, I pay for my track time to NESBA, what's the d~fference?
4/18/2003
.JFH NESBA event
If John Ulrich shows up, would that be different?
How about Monte Lutz?
Keith Code?
John Hopkins?
PaQe 2 of2
Where do you want to start restricting your structure? Let me know so I can look for that information on your site.
I have no problem with members exchanging ideas and giving feedback with one another. This happens all the time. lfeel the difference is receiving formal instruction from a separate motorcycle riding school/track day instructor(non NESBA) while participating at a NESBA event. This is separfJte from signing up to ride in a class and in the process you make a few observations/suggestions with a fellow member. You clearly are not "a.llY person". Would you permit me to attend a VisionSpO!i day and position myself to instruct with some of your students?
Sure, as long as you paid for your entry, that woulfl be the enrollee's decision, and a decision for those students. As long as you follow the "rules of the road" and don't hinder the regular instruction that we have going on, that's not a problem.
In any event, its late, I'm tired. You are correct, I would never restrict anyone from attending one of our events as long as they abide by the guidelines that we see fit. I guess from my stand point I would at least like to establish some line of communications and guidelines. Nothing complicated but I'm sure you understand that my first commitment is with NESBA and our members. I hope you will make the event and we can discuss more ill person.
I probably won't attend
Weather, one, wear on machinery, two. And unless someone needs me, I don't do track days. I was at the NESBA event the last year working with someone. You didn't seem to notice then.
I honestly don't understand the lack of security the you or NESBA is feeling. You sell track time. CCS doesn't complain on their track days, nor would STT, or anyone else.
You don't offer any "instruction", so is it just me? If NESBA is now going to restrict who comes to your days for what ever reasons, you need to make it pretty clear in your enrollments to your customers and potential customers.
SD
4/18/2003
And the original E-mail that I sent. Again I scanned it so it has some goofy text etc. But I do have an original print out. This is from my John Deeer days and I no longer have JD E-mail.
Cloyd Garth r 0(( You (t R. £. At) ~ ,J(.., 'Pl ~A-$vt?£
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From: Cloyd Garth "CL+ /l!l..(..bJev\( :!: F Y\:.v ,.JAve. A~Y 1=-1:.£0 •&:I.(k 4s..:r AIi.vAVS
Sent: Thursday,April17,200311:05 /L.pPI.Jl.~'~:+~ \lo ...• r- Pe/'s{hz&:vC<.... o,J +~:N7c;
To: •visionsprt@netwurx.net' Tl4v.1.I...lI<S Jl\A,1.
Subject: SFH NESSA event
Super Dave, Sorry to hear about the R6. At least you had enough sense to get rid of the 01 GSXR600. I don't think mine was as good as others from the start.
I was doing some lurking on the CCS SSS and saw a post about yourself and VisiOl1Sports providing instruction at DIU,. ..• NESSA event with the potential of charging a fee for this instruction. This is a tough area for me because I am all abol1! improving skill sets and NESSA does not provide any fmmal Control Riding instruction with our Advance group. With U
being stated I have some concerns as well .. ' .. ~
. ~
,,'
My concerns lie with any liability issues that possibly could arise by any implied consent towards VisionSports from NESSA.
There is also a perception created among our members that NESSA will not or does not provided adequate instruction etc., which is not the case. In the past NESSA has conducted Advanced riding instruction and classes. When we moved into the Midwest it was decided to focus more on the track day aspect while still providing beginner instruction and first time track instruction as to not directly compete with the existing Race-type schools available.
I just feel that there is a slight distinction between actively charging for VisionSports services while at a NESSA event verses providing feedback and advice between NESSA members riding in the same class together. I have no desire to prevent/prohibit anyone from attending any of our events - far from it. What L cannot allow are third parties using a NESSA event in order to position themselves in a manner of providing fee based instruction. This is also not to say that we could possibly discuss something for some of our future events. I am all about giving our members a value added track day experience while growing our sport at the same time.
I hope you can appreciate NESSA's position on this.
Garth A. Cloyd
Area Sales Manager John Deere Credit
Voice 1-888-267-3444 Ext. 74296 Cell 309-945-2107
And then my final reply that I also quoted myself on from the prioe E-mail. Dave, I have never prohibited you from ever attending any NESBA dates. I even tried to open a point of discussion towards developing a program with each other but you refused. It is what it is.
Why is it that I get the feeling from you that you seem to think that you are more important or critical to your clientele than what NESBA is to our clientele? Given the fact that there is a huge cross over I would rather work with you in some capacity than against but I don't think you are willing. So we have what we have. So be it.
=======================================================================
Cloyd Garth
From: Cloyd Garth
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:37 AM
To: Visionsports, Inc. - Dave
Subject: RE: BFH NESBA event
I did notice last year and Mr. member ran it by me and what he was trying to accomplish. In this ~pecific case he is In Advance and I agreed with him as to what he wanted to do. You know Dave the issue is just not concerning you. We also have to consider setting precedents. I just want to make sure that it is consistent with what NESBAjs qoing and what we are about. Not a problem with you but their are some out there who fancy themselves as all knowing etc. Bottom line is that I was asking for a clarification on the BSS post and then we could discuss from there. It's not about y_our perception of NESBA feelin9- a lack of security. I'ts about delivering a quality service to our membership and befor we let any third parties entities get involved it just makes good sence to discuss specifics. That all.
I suppose I will also ask you would Keith Code let you show up and instruct at one of his classes as Visionsports.? I can see already that this is blown way out of proportion. Later.
Again:In any event, its late; I'm tired. You are-correct, I would never restrid anyone from attending one of our events as long as they abide by the guidelines that we see fit. I guess from my stand point I would at least like to establish some line of communications and guidelines. Nothing complicated but I'm sure you understand that my first commitment is with NESBA and our members. I hope you will make the event and we can discuss more in person.
Garth A. Cloyd
Area Sales Manager John Deere Credit
Voice 1-888-267-3444 Ext. 74296 Cell 309-945-2107
I've noticed Garth... You're a tired guy.
I have some questions and comments...
NESBA makes money, call it what you will but there is profit. How it falls with the IRS and how its percieved are 2 different things entirely. I asked my die hard Christian friend and he agrees, profit is not a sin. If calling it non profit helps market or substantiate fee's charged...well... I'm in sales, I can see where you come from there. But what's that old saying? If it walks like a Duck...
Is RA a huge money maker? I wouldn't think so. But I don't think you lose money. The potential is there to lose money for sure, but that's business. From a business standpoint, I personally would try to avoid getting into this discussion. Not sure why the nesbians chose to jump into a, really, harmless discussion about available practice sessions for the weekends races. I am sure this isn't the first time someone has complained about membership fee's (as I have had the same discussion myself). When you run a company you cant make everyone happy, just a simple, unavoidable fact. Would a one-event membership be beneficial to NESBA? It could! Give preferential registration to full members, one event members get the left over slots, NESBA makes more money... or whatever it is you do with income over expense... everyone is happy. There may be something I am missing in the equation... but really it's not my job to know, so these are my assumptions. NESBA chooses to not entertain this option for whatever reason, and that reason is theirs. But instead of just letting it go, its discussed on an open forum, claims are made, ego's are bruised, and it turns into just another post on another forum that won't resolve anything. If the discussion was just left alone, it would have died 2 pages ago. Instead people feel the need to do damage control on their program.
Personally, a $75 membership fee isn't something I am interested in. I have tried to explain the "impression" I get from NESBA to people that ask for my input on which TD org I would suggest. Honestly, I cant put my finger on it, but its not for me. I choose other TD providers for my preseason needs as I'm with Dave... not the best allocation of resources. I make exceptions when its something that I'll get specific enjoyment out of, or I have a specific need for (example, buying my Dad a TD for his B-Day so he and I can share some time on the track, or tuning up for a race at a track I haven't seen yet, or SD's school...) but that doesn't seem to require membership with NESBA. Would it have been more convenient occasionally? Sure it would have, but I make my decisions, just like NESBA does... and these decisions are mine.
Yes a track run TD at RA prior to the CCS/ASRA weekend would be nice, doubt I would go as its another night hotel, another set of tires, another fee... but it would be nice to have a reasonable option available for more practice time.
Garth... your implication that track days are beneath those that feel they are a waste of resources is (IMO) what Dave was referring to. I don't jump at the opportunity to run a TD for the same reason and I would be the last person to say a TD is "beneath" me... tires, gas, brake pads all get used (not to mention wear on the machine itself). For those that race on a tight budget, TD's don't make sense... again back to personal decision.
NESBA decided not to allow VRS to run programs at their events... fine, its your sandbox, you can decide who plays and how they play. I respect that. My question is this. Lets say I where to hire SD for a one on one TD. I paid both slots (mine and his) along with whatever he and I agreed on... does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of? Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school? If so how? I tried to read through the posts and can't seem to come up with the reason as to why an arrangement couldn't be reached. I have been to and seen SD's schools run and they aren't the least bit intrusive to the flow of the normal TD. Either in a one on one format, or in a group setting. Just curious as to where the disagreement lies.
Thanks for clarifying
Tim
NESBA decided not to allow VRS to run programs at their events... fine, its your sandbox, you can decide who plays and how they play. I respect that. My question is this. Lets say I where to hire SD for a one on one TD. I paid both slots (mine and his) along with whatever he and I agreed on... does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of? Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school? If so how? I tried to read through the posts and can't seem to come up with the reason as to why an arrangement couldn't't be reached. I have been to and seen SD's schools run and they aren't't the least bit intrusive to the flow of the normal TD. Either in a one on one format, or in a group setting. Just curious as to where the disagreement lies.
1. does NESBA take offense that I have hired someone to attend to my needs personally or in a way that that I feel the CR's at NESBA or incapable of?
A> No offense, just not allowed.
2. Or is this more a matter of Dave requesting rules to be "bent" to more accommodate his school?
A> Not sure of all the circumstances
3. We have rules that our instructors follow, our members understand these rules. If we have someone come that doesn't follow the rules we have an issue. If someone wants to teach you as a school or special instruction, have them rent the track and teach.
Bob
so is it an issue of him profiting from attending your event? Or the difference in instruction? I might be mis-interpreting your answer as it was a bit curt, but if its simply not allowed, wouldnt the circumstances be moot? Also if its simply not allowed where do you draw the line? Is it only "on track" evaluation and instruction?
not trying to be difficult, I am just missing the reasoning. I process information better when I understand it, I sucked at algebra.
Tim, issues like this aren't necessarily as black/white as they may seem and trying to completely understand it is an exercise in futility. From my perspective, it's between VRS and NESBA. They can work it out...
Just my $.02... I'll bow out now and enjoy the show. Ignore my smart-ass comment a few posts back. Simple levity Garth...
I hear ya Jeff, thats part of the reason I mentioned if it were "my" business (actually I mentioned from a business standpoint) I wouldnt be discussing it in a public forum. Things like this tend to act like a pile of dog poopy. the more you poke around at it to see what it consists of the more it stinks and makes the mess bigger. Not trying to solve anything, just understand...
I've tried to understand NESBA thougths on several things and for whatever reason cant grasp where they come from. not that I NEED to know, but if I where to understand the process better.
I didnt eat lima beans when my mom said I had to "because she said so", I havent been really accepting of that answer ever since.
moving on...
tim
It has nothing to do from him profiting from our event. We have several third party vendors who provide services for our events. It has everything to do with consistency on the track. If someone is following their own agenda out there i would see that as confission for a large portion of our memberbase who expect certain things from our instructors.
Its not a difference in instruction its a difference in behaviour on the track.
Hope this helps. Please dont hesitate to ask more questions.
hear ya Jeff, thats part of the reason I mentioned if it were "my" business (actually I mentioned from a business standpoint) I wouldnt be discussing it in a public forum. Things like this tend to act like a pile of dog poopy. the more you poke around at it to see what it consists of the more it stinks and makes the mess bigger. Not trying to solve anything, just understand...
I've tried to understand NESBA thougths on several things and for whatever reason cant grasp where they come from. not that I NEED to know, but if I where to understand the process better.
It is absolutely your business, just like everyone of our members has the right to question anything we do. I am all about making our organization better.
to clarify, by my business I meant if it where my company, owned by me.
I understand about consistency. I could see how having a group of new track day riders with Dave would be an issue, whereas admittedly an "Advanced" rider was allowed 3rd party instruction and caused (presumably) no problems. Sometimes its easier to restrict a viable option to eliminate one that is not (in the opinion of the org) acceptable? not to speak for you...
Regardless, as Jeff mentioned its between the two org's and has nothing to do with me... I got my answer. Now I can sleep at night. :biggrin:
Question slightly off topic,
In my experience NESBA is a bit rigid with it's class structure. My question is, with the event being held before a race weekend, will they be more flexible in allowing new members like myself to ride in the advanced sessions?
I am an expert racer and rider coach with STT. But in the past those qualifications have not earned me "advanced" status with NESBA.
If I buy a membership and pay the fee to attend the RA event, will I have to spend my day in the intermediate group?
get bumped or must have ama licence for a group :rollseyes:
make arrangements for a bump on your first session... and keep your fingers crossed!! :banghead:
Expert race license will get you in Advanced
Actually you need an FIM license. Not that it matters because we put all STT instructors in the Beginner group anyway. :biggrin:
Fax, mail or scan and E-Mail a copy of your EXPERT race license along with NESBA member account information and you will be placed in Advanced.
NESBA
PO Box 70
Mohnton, PA 19540
Toll-Free: 1-877-AT-NESBA (M-F 9AM-5PM Eastern Standard Time)
Fax: 1-717-656-2868
For faster service, email us at info@nesba.com
when i asked you ... you told me an expert licence wont do but an ama licence was required to walk into the a group. i got a good laugh either way :biggrin:
Quote from: nesba on March 20, 2007, 06:02:22 PM
Expert race license will get you in Advanced
I can sat that that isn't always the case. But I didn't think that was a big matter that would be a dramatic problem the day of the event.
I don't do NESBA days anymore because the price is just way too high and I know some of the control riders are first class ass holes. I've been cursed at and refused a bump up when I have passed them and left them in the dust. Not all of them. But some of them conduct themselves like retards in a candy store. I was running 1:17.8's at Putnam and was told I "wasn't fast enough" to be moved to advanced.
I will add that I have met Garth and I will say he is a stand up guy. Super nice guy without question. Just making that clear. No knocks there. But until you switch out your control riders, I wont be back.
I do have to question the costs though. I know there are bills to pay and all of that. But it's VERY common for other organizations to do track days for $50.00 less, the same number of control riders, the same amenities at the track, and zero membership fees, and control riders that can conduct themself in a socially acceptable manner. So why is it NESBA is so much more and where is all that $$$ going if it's a "True" not-for-profit??? Not that it matters really. Because of your control riders I wont be back either way. So no biggie on that. Just curies.
It is legal for a not-for-profit organization to spend up to 80% of their earned resources on things other than the cause it self.
You are correct Dave. Although it was an option I tended to not make it a focal point in the Midwest. With that being said it will be implemented and utilized starting in 2007 and going forward. It really should not be a big deal, I agree.
I don't know what the great concern is because if someone is truly at an advanced skill level it only would take about 10 minutes to demonstrate this on the track with any CR. We don't want Advanced level riders in Intermediate. Demonstrating it on the track should be no big deal. In my experience it is the ones who are marginal or who are not Advanced that make the most fuss about this. I just know that if I, myself participated in another track day and were placed into Intermediate that I would not care because I have faith in my riding abilities and skill level that would allow me to get moved up. It's not like I'm giving anything up at 9AM on a green track anyway.
A quick story to illustrate this was when Rob Jensen came to our event a few years ago and was in the Intermediate registration line as he was restricted by our systems as a new member from signing up In Advanced. I had already moved him to Advanced on paper. So when I saw him, I called out and motioned him over towards the Advanced line. I went on to inform him that I went ahead and put him in Advanced, sorry for the hassle, etc. He basically shrugged it off and stated no big deal as he figured we would move him up after the first session anyway after seeing him ride.
Quote from: robsob on March 20, 2007, 07:51:57 PM
when i asked you ... you told me an expert licence wont do but an ama licence was required to walk into the a group. i got a good laugh either way :biggrin:
Rob, I must have made an exception just for you. You know, one of them sweetheart deals that I am always making. :biggrin: Sorry man. :cheers:
Dang, a couple successful moto business guys in the country call you a parasite. I'd think it would be time for a gut check. Nope, not Rosnot. :thumb:
Quote from: G 97 on March 20, 2007, 06:04:43 PM
Actually you need an FIM license. Not that it matters because we put all STT instructors in the Beginner group anyway. :biggrin:
:banghead: Oh well. Maybe I'll learn something... :biggrin:
Quote from: G 97 on March 19, 2007, 06:15:59 PM
-----Original Message-----
From: Visionsports, Inc. - Dave Rosno Imailto:visionsprt@netwurx.net] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 4:32 AM
To: Cloyd Garth
Subject: Re: BFH NESBA event
I probably won't attend
Weather, one, wear on machinery, two. And unless someone needs me, I don't do track days. 4/18/2003
Gosh Rosnot, it looks like the only person putting words into your mouth was....?
Hey, Tood, if you have time, you could read the whole thread. It's a few pages back.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 21, 2007, 05:46:16 PM
Hey, Tood, if you have time, you could read the whole thread. It's a few pages back.
Yeah, I read the whole thread, from the beginning when it started a few days ago. Where did you do some editing for us all?! :wah:
Um, sorry, I think there were plenty readin' as I typed.
Garth and I know each other well enough, I'd say, that he pretty much reconizes my banter. :biggrin: Whether he and I agree or not. Still respect him for that.
Good day!
Quote from: Court Jester on March 20, 2007, 08:36:16 PM
I don't do NESBA days anymore because the price is just way too high and I know some of the control riders are first class ass holes. I've been cursed at and refused a bump up when I have passed them and left them in the dust. Not all of them. But some of them conduct themselves like retards in a candy store. I was running 1:17.8's at Putnam and was told I "wasn't fast enough" to be moved to advanced.
I will add that I have met Garth and I will say he is a stand up guy. Super nice guy without question. Just making that clear. No knocks there. But until you switch out your control riders, I wont be back.
I do have to question the costs though. I know there are bills to pay and all of that. But it's VERY common for other organizations to do track days for $50.00 less, the same number of control riders, the same amenities at the track, and zero membership fees, and control riders that can conduct themself in a socially acceptable manner. So why is it NESBA is so much more and where is all that $$$ going if it's a "True" not-for-profit??? Not that it matters really. Because of your control riders I wont be back either way. So no biggie on that. Just curies.
It is legal for a not-for-profit organization to spend up to 80% of their earned resources on things other than the cause it self.
Sorry for the delay in response with this. I wanted to make sure that your issues were completely addressed and that the corrective actions were implemented prior to responding.
Although I was not aware of your specific situation, rest assured that swift and corrective action was taken. Effective immediately, all MW NESBA Control Riders will have their pay cut in half and be forced to work weekends.
Of course you had a great opportunity to address your issues directly with me while at the track or at the CCS banquette while you sat right next to me for 3 hours, but chose not to. FYI, 1:17's at Putnam are Unremarkable.
like i said, the issue isn't with you and i've riden with you at putnam and talked to you several times. you've been great on and off the track and i did tell you while sitting there at the table at the banquet that i did do a trackday with NESBA (cause i talked to you that day at putnam) and i also told you that i don't do them with NESBA any more. though we were both a little drunk at the banquet.
but i think holding your CR to a solid standard would be much better for NESBA than a BS reply. i can assure you, there are more folks than just myself that are putting our time and money to other track orgs because of the conduct of your ill placed CR. but a BS answer only shows that you can't or aren't willing to fix the problem. but you handle it as you see fit. that's not my choice to make. i can't say i expected much more than that from NESBA as a whole.
I don't remember the aforementioned incident at Putnam nor do I know which CR you had this experience with, so I can't comment on it specifically, but as a Control Rider for NESBA I can say that it's not uncommon for people to break the rules and then be pissed off they weren't rewarded for it.
If you can run smooth, consistent 1:17's at Putnam, without breaking the passing rules of the Intermediate group, and are considered to have a similar pace at other area tracks, you would definitely be moved into the Advanced group by any CR you would happen to be working with. (assuming your bike would pass tech for the Advanced group)
Where we have issues are usually with riders who think lap times are all that matter, and don't bother following the passing rules of whatever group they happen to be in. These riders often think all they have to do is go faster than any rider in an orange shirt to prove their merit for the next group.
Unfortunately, the CR's don't know they're racing you, they think they're setting an appropriate pace for the situation, and working with riders to improve their skills. That's why the passing rules exist, and why those "assholes" are wearing orange shirts.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I was "left in the dust" by a Beginner group rider, or told by an Intermediate group rider "I could've passed you" while I was trying to show them something that they obviously didn't get.
It's unfortunate you had one bad experience, with one CR, at one track day you did with NESBA, and I'm not really sure what the point is in bitching about it on the CCS forum, but it doesn't really matter since it sounds like you've already found the solution to your problem.
Hey Mike, I don't recall meeting you or discussing anything with you while at Putnam. In fact the one and only time I can remember meeting you was while at the CCS banquette. Also my recollection on the conversation we had at the CCS banquette was mostly focused on you wanting to become a Control Rider for NESBA and that is when you gave me your Jester Racing business card. You never brought to my attention any issues you had - prior or current - with any of the CR's.
I'm curious, what Putnam date you are talking about and what issues or problems with the CR's did you bring to my attention and what was my response. The only issue from your prior post that you have is that you did not get bumped to the Advanced group. Is this correct? I am all about problem resolution but when I have no specifics to work from it really limits what I can do towards helping you. Waiting your reply.
Quote from: Sklossmonster on March 23, 2007, 12:58:04 PM
Unfortunately, the CR's don't know they're racing you,shirts.
Hey Marshall-are you still a CR and how did you become one? How long did it take?
Hey Mike, still waiting to help you with your issues. Please let me know what Putnam date you participated in. What issues you have with specific CR's. and what you specifically discussed with me while at the track and what was my response. What can I do to help you?
I have a question about the NESBA bump policy. I ride an SV650, I enjoy the twisties, I also HATE having some hamfisted rider on a 600 blow by me 2/3 of the way down the straight only to literally park it a hundred feet before I even get to my brake marker thus killing my corner and I am not allowed to pass. I happen to be one of those who follows the class rules to the letter and from all I've heard I'm not sure I would survive a NESBA day. I am not trying to make trouble here, but I have had more than a few trackdays ruined by this exact situation.
Paul if you have never experienced a NESBA day first hand I would encourage you to participate with one prior to making any conclusions. I have no idea what group you would be placed in but we have no passing restrictions in the Advanced group. For Intermediate we have passing restrictions – no passing on the inside of corners. In Beginner – NO passing at all in the corners.
For sure there are variable degrees of skill level at any track day. As you know there are also variable degrees of equipment. If you are in Intermediate passing is allowed on the outside of the turn. So if you find that someone is "parking it" to such a degree that it drastically impedes your own corner speed – you can simply pass the rider on the outside.
I will also say that from my experience you will not find too many, if any, riders on 600's braking 100 feet prior to the brake markers in the Intermediate group. A majority of this is restricted with the Beginner group because if they are braking 100 feet prior - they will get bumped down to the Beginner group or if already in Beginner, they will not get bumped up to I. Plain and simple.
This is the great thing about NESBA's bump policy, you will not find too many riders who are riding in a class that is above their own abilities. Think of it along the lines of quality control. I am so confident that if you ever chose to participate in a NESBA event and if what you describe happens to you on a regular basis I will give you 100% refund. :boink:
Without seeing it first hand and only going from what you are describing to me. If another rider was braking 100 feet prior to myself hitting my brake markers I would simply pass him prior to the turn in point. :cheers:
Quote from: Court Jester on March 20, 2007, 08:36:16 PM
I don’t do NESBA days anymore because the price is just way too high and I know some of the control riders are first class ass holes. I’ve been cursed at and refused a bump up when I have passed them and left them in the dust. Not all of them. But some of them conduct themselves like retards in a candy store. I was running 1:17.8's at Putnam and was told I “wasn’t fast enough” to be moved to advanced.
I will add that I have met Garth and I will say he is a stand up guy. Super nice guy without question. Just making that clear. No knocks there. But until you switch out your control riders, I wont be back.
I do have to question the costs though. I know there are bills to pay and all of that. But it’s VERY common for other organizations to do track days for $50.00 less, the same number of control riders, the same amenities at the track, and zero membership fees, and control riders that can conduct themself in a socially acceptable manner. So why is it NESBA is so much more and where is all that $$$ going if it’s a “True” not-for-profit??? Not that it matters really. Because of your control riders I wont be back either way. So no biggie on that. Just curies.
It is legal for a not-for-profit organization to spend up to 80% of their earned resources on things other than the cause it self.
Mike, still waiting on this.
Quote from: Hawk on March 27, 2007, 12:57:15 AM
I have a question about the NESBA bump policy. I ride an SV650, I enjoy the twisties, I also HATE having some hamfisted rider on a 600 blow by me 2/3 of the way down the straight only to literally park it a hundred feet before I even get to my brake marker thus killing my corner and I am not allowed to pass. I happen to be one of those who follows the class rules to the letter and from all I've heard I'm not sure I would survive a NESBA day.
I ran a SV650 from "Beginner" to "Advanced" and don't think it shoud be a problem. I have been a CR since last year, and can tell you if you are ready for the next level, 600's are no problem. I would assume that you are at least in the "I" group, since you have an amateur race license. Set them up and pass them smoothly. Easy-Peasy.
I've ridden with NESBA a few times, the only issue I have every really encountered was on the out lap of the first session, I ended up the last rider in a pack and almost ran over someone who was braking about 100 ft too early, but it was the out lap. I just remember to pay VERY close attention to the riders around me. I ride in the "I" group and have never had a problem other than the slight irritation with a few 1000cc guys that would pass down the straights, but hold me up slightly thru the corners. But that's nothing a quick trip through pit lane won't fix.
Could I bump up to "A", probably but I've never bothered to ask because I actually enjoy riding at a slower pace and It gets me very comfortable in traffic, forces me to be more attentive of the riders around me and has taught me how to better pass around the outside.
My only real bitch with NESBA I have (and it's a minor one) is what's up in tech inspection with regards to the chain adjustment... I go through and get rejected because my chain is "too stretched" according to the factory marks on my swingarm, well it was a brand new chain, and I was running non-stock gearing. Go back, peel off the factory "adjustment" sticker come back through tech and breeze through no problem, with the same inspector... :wtf:
But overall I've never had any major issues with NESBA and I think they run a solid program.
QuoteMike, still waiting on this.
Yeah.... me too. :jerkoff:
QuoteI do have to question the costs though. I know there are bills to pay and all of that. But it's VERY common for other organizations to do track days for $50.00 less, the same number of control riders, the same amenities at the track, and zero membership fees, and control riders that can conduct themself in a socially acceptable manner. So why is it NESBA is so much more and where is all that $$$ going if it's a "True" not-for-profit??? Not that it matters really.
Mike your statements are nothing but fiction.
You have never been a member of NESBA. You have three accounts set up and none of them have ever been activated or associated with a membership. Two of them have absolutely ZERO event activity, while only one shows that you signed up for 1 event in Putnam with the INTRO group, get this – on September 12 2004. (First two sessions in Beginner for free program.).
You said you were doing 1:17's at Putnam and did not get bumped to Advanced. This would be impossible to occur given that you were in the INTRO group. You saying this is PURE FICTION.
You said that you discussed this with me at the track. This would be impossible to occur given that I did not work this event. This was a Honda order program cut off and reconcile - drop dead date and I was unable to make this event. You stating that you discussed this with me is PURE FICTION.
You were so emotionally upset with the overall attitude of the NESBA CR's that you waited a full 30 months prior to expressing your concerns. Not with NESBA directly, mind you, but on a CCS forum with an entirely made up story. BRILLIANT :rollseyes:
Actually, I ran one other date with a friend of mine. I did not plan on doing the event and I did not pay a membership fee. Infact I wasn't sure I would make that date so I just made the two hour drive, played dumb, lied my ass off, and the old lady let me pay cash with the agreement that if a charge was made to my credit card, it would be refunded.
I did run the full day, I did not get a membership, and I did talk to you at the track. If you think about the conversation at the banquet... you just stated you didn't make that date that you found on you logs, but you do remember me speaking to you at one nesba date while you were fiddling with the Honda dirt bike (whatever it was) that you were think of using as a motard. This is were you told me you were a Honda rep and I remember you telling me that oddly enough, you were the only Honda rep (maybe one other person) that even road. If I can dig them up, I have pictures of that day and a few on board videos.
I didn't post much of a reply because arguing over the Internet is like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. But I think you proved a gleaming point in NESBA's lack of professionalism when you went through the company's documents and PUBLICALY posted information solely to make yourself look better. Which I feel you have yet to accomplish. Nice try though. :thumb:
Keep in mind, I at no point directed anything negative at you personally. Just one heavyset control rider with dark hair and a mustache. That's all I know about the guy. It's great that you are so willing to stand up for NESBA. Considering your position I think it's expected. But there is a right way and a wrong way to handle every situation. I would look into the facts a little more and stop using a company's documents and posting it up as public information. But hey, it is NESBA. Right?
I simply stated my opinion and the reasons behind it. If you want to take it farther. Fine. PM me or give me a ring at 608-988-6384. or hell, just come over to the house and we'll hash it out over the grill and a few rum and cokes. but a computer pissing match is about as childish as it gets man. But again, it is NESBA.
I'll see if I can find some pics or vids when I get home. Thanks for making another point for me. And stop taking shit so personal.
so when you gonna answer my question about the cost???
Northeast Sportbike Asociation of Mohnton, PA is a recognized non-profit org by the IRS. Financial details are public knowledge but you may have to request them in writing (and the forum doesn't count). I'm not sure. Check with www.irs.gov for clarification.
And speaking of bashing/baiting/ranting/finger-pointing, I see it from just about every direction in this thread which has pretty much become pointless... The entire thing is a no-win scenario for those involved. Just my humble opinion.
Quote from: G 97 on March 23, 2007, 03:14:21 AM
Sorry for the delay in response with this. I wanted to make sure that your issues were completely addressed and that the corrective actions were implemented prior to responding.
Although I was not aware of your specific situation, rest assured that swift and corrective action was taken. Effective immediately, all MW NESBA Control Riders will have their pay cut in half and be forced to work weekends.
Garth,
I am very pleased to hear of the disciplinary actions you are taking to correct this dire situation. I am certain that all CR's will immediately resign after getting the news (Fricken primadonnas). That said, please contact me ASAP in regards to filling the empty CR slots. 608 213-4102. I am very confident that my services are worth at least half of the current pay rate of NESBA CR's. BTW, I don't mind working weekends and thoroughly enjoy being personally responsible for the happiness of 100+ participants.
Take Care,
Damon
Quote from: lilroy on March 28, 2007, 06:54:38 PM
Garth,
I am very pleased to hear of the disciplinary actions you are taking to correct this dire situation. I am certain that all CR's will immediately resign after getting the news (Fricken primadonnas). That said, please contact me ASAP in regards to filling the empty CR slots. 608 213-4102. I am very confident that my services are worth at least half of the current pay rate of NESBA CR's. BTW, I don't mind working weekends and thoroughly enjoy being personally responible for the happiness of 100+ participants.
Take Care,
Damon
Very smooth! :)
Quote from: Court Jester on March 28, 2007, 02:43:56 PM
And stop taking shit so personal.
Huh? What did I miss here?
Please correct me if I'm wrong here Mike/Court Jester; You fabricated a complete scenario in order to slander an organization, their on track representatives, and one of it's main organizers.
You made something up to PURPOSEFULLY make an organization look like shit and now you're telling THEM to back off?
i made nothing up. i have no reason to lie unless your a female and i'm trying to get laid. suzukited from this board was there with me that day. the whole thing is up there. when i met him at the track and what we talked about at the track. i'll tell you the same thing; you want to bitch and/or cry about it, step out from around your computer and give me a ring or come see me at the track. the numbers up there. my gripe was with nesba as an org, not garth as a person. anyone can see it as they like, but that was my intent.
Quote from: Court Jester on April 02, 2007, 08:27:05 AM
you want to bitch and/or cry about it, step out from around your computer and give me a ring or come see me at the track.
I just wanted to get it straight; from what I read, Mike, you completely fictionalized a trackday with NESBA and a conversation you say you had there with Garth, in which you were complaining about CRs, supposedly...
NESBA records show you were NOT there and neither was Garth to have even had the conversation with you.
This is the second time I have seen you make up a completely fictional scenario on the WWW in order to purposefully try and slander somebody. I ain't cryin or bitchin' about it. Jus sayin...
:pop:
Quote from: 61Ex on April 02, 2007, 05:42:55 PM
I just wanted to get it straight; from what I read, Mike, you completely fictionalized a trackday with NESBA and a conversation you say you had there with Garth, in which you were complaining about CRs, supposedly...
NESBA records show you were NOT there and neither was Garth to have even had the conversation with you.
This is the second time I have seen you make up a completely fictional scenario on the WWW in order to purposefully try and slander somebody. I ain't cryin or bitchin' about it. Jus sayin...
According to this you're saying that you believe Nesba records and think Jester is completely lying when he explained how he was at one other event without it being on the books. I've seen plenty of people pay at the track.......seems believable to me.
Quote from: 61Ex on April 02, 2007, 05:42:55 PM
I just wanted to get it straight; from what I read, Mike, you completely fictionalized a trackday with NESBA and a conversation you say you had there with Garth, in which you were complaining about CRs, supposedly...
NESBA records show you were NOT there and neither was Garth to have even had the conversation with you.
This is the second time I have seen you make up a completely fictional scenario on the WWW in order to purposefully try and slander somebody. I ain't cryin or bitchin' about it. Jus sayin...
:jerkoff: you're pretty funny for a white guy :jerkoff:
Oh, and please do enlighten me on the previous occurrence sir.
This should be real good. :pop: