I know that there will be some that disagree with you, but personally, I thought it was well written and you had excellent points and rationale.
Dawn :thumb:
which month?
The latest issue.
Quote from: EX#996 on February 06, 2007, 09:32:20 PM
I know that there will be some that disagree with you, but personally, I thought it was well written and you had excellent points and rationale.
Dawn :thumb:
I doubt many people will disagree........!
I won't say I disagree with the points Ed made in his letter, because he made some very good ones, but I do want to clarify a few things for his sake, and for anyone else who I feel similarly misinterpreted what I was trying to say by the statement, "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
First of all, anyone who knows me knows I've always been way too polite on track, even to the point of creating some potentially hazardous situations by not taking a pass when it presents itself and having a rider behind me check up when I didn't pass for fear it might upset the rider in front of me. When I tried my hand at racing, these issues immediately came to the forefront, and I was forced to learn how to be more aggressive, not stupid, but aggressive.
Secondly, I wish we all had the luxury of spending five laps going to school on the rider in front, to see where you can best slip past with no muss and no fuss. Unfortunately, in a 7 lap sprint, which is often less than that due to red flags, etc... you simply don't have time to wait around for one of the thirty riders in front of you to offer the perfect passing opportunity while the riders behind you are trying to get through, especially on a narrow, twisty track, that's usually less than 2 miles around.
If we only had twenty riders on the grid, and 45 feet of track width, in a 30 lap race, I'm sure the passing could be cleaner. But we all know in a club sprint with lap traffic of all types, that just isn't the case.
I agree with Ed when he says sportsmanship and clean racing should take precedence over unchecked aggression and standing riders up at every opportunity, what I disagree with is the proposition that the only clean pass is the one that doesn't cause the other rider to alter his or her line in any way.
I don't believe "Rubbing is racing" but I do know that sometimes you can make a pass that doesn't alter someone else's line, and sometimes you can't. I would never advocate rough riding, or contact between riders bodies or their bikes on track, but the aggression necessary to take the line and put your bike in front of another is, in my opinion, a necessary part of winning, at any level.
We see MotoGP riders and AMA riders do this all the time. The difference in my opinion, is that the riders they are usually passing have such well developed skills they can "check up" so slightly as to be barely noticeable. Two top level riders often go through a corner side by side, battling for the line until one rider firmly establishes his or herself in front. Each rider definitely forces the other rider to alter their line, but there's no contact between them. No blood, no foul.
One of the things I like least about any form of competition in any sport is the reality that at some point winners can't be perfect gentlemen. There's a fine line between good hard racing, and the kind of aggression Ed takes issue with in his letter. I wish we had referees watching every pass, and instant replay to help determine what's allowed and what's not, unfortunately this is not the case. And lacking that type of objectivity, good sportsmanship is left to the riders, and often subject to interpretation.
Ed, I sincerely believe you read what I was trying to say and took it in a way I did not intend. I think you brought up some very good points in addressing the need for good sportsmanship on the racetrack, and I hope no one else out there read what I wrote and took it to mean the only way to win is to bang your way to the front, because that's certainly not what I meant, or what I do.
I sure hope novice racers around the country aren't reading that article and taking it the way Ed did. I reread it after reading Ed's letter and I still feel good about the message I was trying to convey, but I do have concerns that someone could read it the wrong way.
I'm curious as to how many other people interpreted it the same way Ed did. It's too bad I'll never know. Hopefully, as the series continues readers will take to heart some of the lessons in there that underscore exactly the same type of sportsmanship Ed and I would both like to see more of. Only time will tell.
Just one thought:
Remember, none of us get paid to do this. We all have jobs and families to support.
Dawn :cheers:
Ed and I spoke when he decided to send his letter in, and one of the first things he told me was how much he enjoyed your articles, so I don't think that Ed has a beef with you personally, just the cowboy attitude that some racers have. In this world where words can be construed 20 different ways, it's always best to err on the side of caution when conveying a particular message. Everyone who knows you, understands that you're not that kamikaze pilot, but those who do not might get the wrong impression.
What I really appreciate is the fact that we can have a clean debate about the issues, I find both you and Ed to be gentleman, unfortunately, more a rarity than it ought to be. Keep writing the good stuff, Marshall, we all look forward to reading it.
well I've gotta say i didn't have that same reaction as ed and was a little surprised by it. maybe that's cuz i know marshall...I've done as much racing (bar to bar) with marshall as anyone and he is right when he says he is too polite on track. i haven't raced with anyone i feel safer with and have watched him not take many clean, open passes and wondered??? as an example- i remember a race at blackhawk where marshall lost the lead and a hard fought 2 sec gap on the last lap cuz he would have had to put a questionable pass (according to him-not me) on a lapper!! this was the norm for him, no unnessessary risk. marshall has been aware of this problem all along and we even joked about it coming from his control riding for nesba. while its hard to dispute what ed says in his letter, maybe racing with marshall gave me a little perspective that didn't come through in the story. i know ed has the best of intentions but i don't want anyone to get the wrong impression about marshall, he's a pretty good guy on and off the track... if he would just wash his bikes once in a while!
I took what Marshall wrote differently than Ed did as well and I don't "know" Marshall either (unless you count having met him once at a NESBA track day). It is racing, not a track day, and I don't see anything wrong with safe aggressive pass. But what Ed wrote also makes perfect sense and I can see exactly how he read it as well and his point of view.
I love reading your articles Marshall, that's some of the best writing I've seen in RRW lately!
Well said Ed.
Jason, you can read? :cheers:
Quote from: Sklossmonster on February 07, 2007, 12:15:27 PM
I don't believe "Rubbing is racing" but I do know that sometimes you can make a pass that doesn't alter someone else's line, and sometimes you can't. I would never advocate rough riding, or contact between riders bodies or their bikes on track, but the aggression necessary to take the line and put your bike in front of another is, in my opinion, a necessary part of winning, at any level.
I read Marshalls piece and came away with the same take as Ed, that may be due in part to having been the victim of some passes that were well above and beyond what Marshal is avocating. Also, having read Marshall's third installment, I find he has a rather animated writing style that may have exaggerated some points in a way not intended.
Take a moment and reread the paragraph above and think about something. If the response of the rider you are overtaking is as aggressive as your pass will you both be going to work tomorrow. Does anyone really believe that they have a greater right to a certain piece of track than anyone else? Aggression can escalate very quickly on the track and is therefore very dangerous. I understand the rather urgent need to make passes in a sprint race but the proper place to do that is in the braking area or the exit. To suddenly "show up" at the apex after a rider has extablished his line is just an invitation to distaster. In virtually all forms of racing when 2 drivers approach a turn together the driver who is leading at turn in "owns" the line and you have to either find a way to pass with taking that line away or get there leading the next time. Consider that a first race amateur could simply wait to brake until after you have and even though he has no hope of taking a clean line he has passed you and you are now on the hooks for all you are worth following him off the track. Finally there is no comparison between CCS and MotoGP or AMA, This is club racing, NOT professional racing.
I ran the first few rounds of 2006 as an amateur, before taking a bump. I passed, and was passed by Marshall. I can say from my experience that he's not a kamakaze rider. In fact, he's one of the cleanest guys I've raced.
Everyone has a different opinion of what a safe pass is. When Marshall says he stands guys up, I think he's referring to being inside them on the brakes when they want to turn in. I know he would never dive bomb a guy at the apex. Rob Sobotka would, but not Marshall.
Just kidding Rob :thumb: :lmao:
Quote from: loc_dogg on February 07, 2007, 06:24:36 PM
Jason, you can read? :cheers:
Yep.... I can even write too........ :finger: smart ass. Done RE-rebuilding :lmao: your motor yet?
Quote from: JBraun on February 07, 2007, 10:04:06 PM
I know he would never dive bomb a guy at the apex. Rob Sobotka would, but not Marshall.
Just kidding Rob :thumb: :lmao:
OUCH! :)
Quote from: JBraun on February 07, 2007, 10:04:06 PM
I know he would never dive bomb a guy at the apex. Rob Sobotka would, but not Marshall.
Just kidding Rob :thumb: :lmao:
:ass: :ass: :ass:
:whine: :whine: :whine:
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Quote from: EX#996 on February 07, 2007, 12:35:11 PM
Just one thought:
Remember, none of us get paid to do this. We all have jobs and families to support.
Dawn :cheers:
One more thought. Racing is not safe. Nothing about it is safe. It is a calculated risk at best. Anyone who decides to take to the track, grid up and drop the hammer for the checkered; is automatically subjecting themselves to this risk. We can try and identify this risk and we can try to manage it the best we can but in the end it is still not safe.
Please do not misconstrue these statements as showing support towards unsportsmanlike like activity while racing. But it is racing and you only have control over your own actions. Although I don't condone it or agree with it, over the years I have come to accept certain behavior from other racers – it comes along with the game.
As stated prior you will not find a safer, more considerate racer than Marshall. His article has more to do with trying to get out of his Control Riding/track day mentality of being way too nice and giving too much room. We joke about this all the time - the "NESBA hesitation". This track day mentality has magnified his situation with regards to racing. Interpret his article how you wish but please refrain from using it as a spring board for your own personal agenda.
As always, Marshall is the man.
I understand what you're saying Garth, and it was not directed towards Marshall in any way.
Trust me I don't have a personal agenda. It was a simple statement stressing when it is all said and done, this is afterall just club racing. While that little chunk of wood may look good on your wall, it's not worth getting seriously injured over.
My two cents and if it's a personal agenda, it's a damn cheap and good one at that.
Dawn :thumb:
Thanks for the props, kids, I'm glad to know it's not all in my head.
Rob, you crack me up! I remember many of those incidents all too well, and thanks again for not ass-packing me while I checked up right in front of you everytime I should've made a pass instead of sitting there paralyzed with the track day rider's syndrome. And thanks for helping me learn how to finally make some of those passes, as I had to figure it out one way or another everytime you'd go by and start going away!
Jason, you're absolutely right. There are definitely different interpretations of "standing someone up" and sometimes the reaction of the rider being passed has alot to do with how much they actually get stood up. When I line someone up on the brakes, I feel like I am, in some way, "standing them up" because I have now taken their turn in point away from them, thus altering their normal procedure for that turn. Very different from dive bombing someone's apex at the risk of both rider's necks and equipment. Not to say I haven't been guilty of doing exactly that before, but I've always waved a heartfelt apology and tried to find the rider later to say it in person. I think the better you get at racing the less you find yourself in that situation, but learning can be less than pretty sometimes.
Hawk, I hear what you're saying, and you're right about my "animated style" of writing, which I'm more and more sure can be taken the wrong way ... unfortunate, but true. One thing I would say though, about CCS versus AMA and any other top level of roadracing, last time I checked our CCS events have more than a few AMA racers on the grid, especially when it's an ASRA event. In fact wasn't that 2-time WSBK Champion Doug Polen I saw charging through the entire field at Daytona in two laps from the back of the grid? I know most CCS racers aren't professionals, but they did choose to go racing, and to Garth's point, racing is dangerous no matter how you slice it. I don't want it to be anymore hairball than it already is, but one really good thing about track days is that now everyone has a place they can push the limits of themselves and their motorcycles without the added risks of a full-on racing environment, 'cuz I promise you if Doug Polen needs to stand you up for an $8000 Ducati purse, he's going to do it, and conidering the environment I can't say he's wrong for it.
I think an important distinction in this discussion is the notion of contact, and the relative position of each bike. If there's no contact between the riders, I don't see a problem with a pass. And in my mind, the bike in front has the line, if they can hold that line then it's now the passer who must take it away without initiating contact, if they can do that it's now the passer's line. Whoever inititiates contact from behind is clearly in the wrong, because they weren't able to take the line away cleanly. I'm no expert, but that's kind of how I see it, at least at the moment. I'm sure those with more skills and experience can add to that subject.
And just to be clear, if anyone one around here is "The Man" it's the GMan himself: AMA racer, NESBA Midwest Director, an MA, a BA, and a BMF besides! (Thanks for everything, man, especially for that bump up from Beginner!)
Hey Dawn,
Funny that you say that ... one of the "Lessons" coming up in the next few installments of that series is that to me no bowling trophy is worth sending someone to the hospital over, and I'm sure that particular article will generate even more of this kind of discussion. It's funny to me since it was written six months ago, but it raises an interesting issue:
At what point does a bowling trophy become something you risk even more for? When it's a regional championship? Or a National title? Or an AMA round? Or a WSBK round? I suspect the answer is different for everyone, thus the psychos dive bombing apexes during an amateur club practice round, versus the rider who won't put his friend into a wall ... not even for a championship.
Tough calls ... tough calls.
Quote from: EX#996 on February 08, 2007, 12:29:09 PM
I understand what you're saying Garth, and it was not directed towards Marshall in any way.
Trust me I don't have a personal agenda. It was a simple statement stressing when it is all said and done, this is afterall just club racing. While that little chunk of wood may look good on your wall, it's not worth getting seriously injured over.
My two cents and if it's a personal agenda, it's a damn cheap and good one at that.
Dawn :thumb:
Hey Dawn, Oops Although I used your quote, It was not meant towards you, specifically. I was trying to generalize but did not make that clear as I should have. Sorry. :)
QuoteAt what point does a bowling trophy become something you risk even more for? When it's a regional championship? Or a National title? Or an AMA round? Or a WSBK round?
When its your job.. and your racing people that are doing their job as well, but there is still a level of respect that "should" be adhered to.
at least IMHO.
Its a tough subject... I am sure we have all made a pass or 2 that may have not been the most opportune time or position. That being said I am sure each of us have for whatever reason hesitated on making a pass to avoid making a potentially painful and expensive mistake in jusdgment. Having the skill set and the knowledge to make that decision is really what we are discussing. I have passed and been passed very close but very clean... (ask Jamie Hall about T1 at GIR!!! :ahhh:) I have also been passed where I feel the need to get out of the guy (or girls) way and have no desire to be near that person... and they never got within 2 feet of me...
Fortunalty things are a lot "cleaner" in the Ex ranks (based on my own personal experiences, your results may differ). The racing is closer, but the risk seems to be reduced with control and decision making. there will always be instances of "aggressive" riding or passes, I think the community at the track helps to self regulate that well. Noone wants to see anyone get hurt, and I would hope that noone wants to be the one to cause someone to crash...but it will still happen
Quote from: Sklossmonster on February 08, 2007, 12:43:30 PM
At what point does a bowling trophy become something you risk even more for? When it's a regional championship? Or a National title? Or an AMA round? Or a WSBK round? I suspect the answer is different for everyone, thus the psychos dive bombing apexes during an amateur club practice round, versus the rider who won't put his friend into a wall ... not even for a championship.
Tough calls ... tough calls.
Now, the good questions come...
Well, bowling trophies (LOL! I love that!) aren't worth squat.
But cash has value.
With the AMA becoming more of a play land to the very, very well funded (riders pay for good rides), manufacturer contingency is still very popular venue for some to make a pretty decent living. A better living that what a rider could make by winning at the AMA events.
To not recognize that racing has that kind of potential risk that Garth talks about is really the worst.
But I haven't seen contingency races necessarily provide poor passing that I have seen in other races. Seems like the bigger risk has been late year amateur events.
To tackle the aspect of anyone going fast in practice is another topic. Practice is practice. And it's a sterile opportunity to expirement. Unfortunately, many club racers have the mind set that their fastest laps should come in traffic with other racers in actual competition where their mistakes under pressure cause the most harm to themselves and, potentially, the competitors around them. If a rider has never done a lap time of "X", the bike is going to react differently when they push to that point and certain problems can be expected. Additionally, as riders progress, those things become harder to learn.
Quote from: tstruyk on February 08, 2007, 01:43:19 PM
... I have passed and been passed very close but very clean...(ask Jamie Hall about T1 at GIR!!! :ahhh:)...
Good Times...Hope you are referring to that pass as a VERY CLEAN pass... :)
clean and close... just like you getting me back before T9 last lap... :banghead:
:thumb:
Quote from: Sklossmonster on February 08, 2007, 12:36:59 PM
Hawk, I hear what you're saying, and you're right about my "animated style" of writing, which I'm more and more sure can be taken the wrong way ... unfortunate, but true. One thing I would say though, about CCS versus AMA and any other top level of roadracing, last time I checked our CCS events have more than a few AMA racers on the grid, especially when it's an ASRA event. In fact wasn't that 2-time WSBK Champion Doug Polen I saw charging through the entire field at Daytona in two laps from the back of the grid? I know most CCS racers aren't professionals, but they did choose to go racing, and to Garth's point, racing is dangerous no matter how you slice it. I don't want it to be anymore hairball than it already is, but one really good thing about track days is that now everyone has a place they can push the limits of themselves and their motorcycles without the added risks of a full-on racing environment, 'cuz I promise you if Doug Polen needs to stand you up for an $8000 Ducati purse, he's going to do it, and conidering the environment I can't say he's wrong for it.
Marshall, as far as your animated writing style, as you get more articles out there people will read them the way you mean them.
As far as passing I agree with your statement 100% but what you state in the quote above is not standing someone up. Standing someone up is when I have my line set and someone comes under me hot, can't make their line, runs to the outside and I'm on the hooks leaned over waiting for them to clear so that I can start turning again. To me this is not acceptable behaviour when I'm doing my calculations of risk. Once we accept this form of passing how big a leap is it to 130MPH roller-derby?
As an aside, I used to enjoy going out with a group of my friends and doing some laps in go karts, this can be a lot of fun but anymore the accepted technique is to come into the corner so hot you have no hope of slowing down and ramming the guy in front of you clean off the track, now you've scrubbed enough speed to make the corner and made a very dramatic pass in the procress. Not fun.
Dave you hit the nail on the head with this. So very true. Over the years the line has been greatly blurred between the bottom AMA regulars and the top club contingency chasing racers. We have witnessed it haven't we? In all reality, after you get past the factory teams and the support teams the talent level at an AMA race is below the level of several racers you can find at a contingency (money round) club weekend.
With this being true - one could make a good case that yes, in fact, several racers at the club level are making a living out of racing at this level and it is their job. As you stated, trophies are one thing but cash has value. One only has to witness how the manufacturers are steadily increasing their contingency programs to realize that this situation is going to become more prevalent.
We would all like to think that we are all out there for the same reasons but reality says otherwise.
Quote from: Hawk on February 08, 2007, 07:07:50 PM
Standing someone up is when I have my line set and someone comes under me hot, can't make their line, runs to the outside and I'm on the hooks leaned over waiting for them to clear so that I can start turning again.
I'm not sure I understand this. If this is as you describe would not said "hot rider" hit you prior to clearing you? Just asking for clarification. :)
I'll state my opinion, and it may or may not be agreeable to everyone. Once I've turned in, if another rider suddenly appears beneath me and forces me to change my trajectory, he's 100% in the wrong, and I'm pissed. If he hits me, or if by necessarily changing my trajectory to avoid contact with him I lose grip and fall, he'd better be the world's fastest apologizer. If he tells me that I was in his way so he moved me....
Since this thread was inspired by a letter from Ed Key, let me tell a tale on him. Once in a Formula 40 race, Ed caught me on the final lap. I was mid-pack on my 750, and Ed was leading F40 light from the second wave. As I turned in and set my knee puck on the asphalt, a gleaming silver wheel and yellow fender popped into my peripheral vison. The tire took up a position 6 inches behind my knee, and paced it. I recognizd the wheel as belonging to Ed, so I raised my knee up against the bodywork. Having been given the 8 inches of pavement that my knee was occupying, Ed then completed his pass and was gone.
Abso-phucking-lutely magnificent!
After the race, Ed came over to apologize. I told him that he'd just shown me the most perfect pass of my racing career, and that he had no need to apologize. Ed said, "I made you pick up your knee. I try never to change what another rider is doing when I pass them." At this point, I reminded Ed that I hadn't NEEDED to lift that knee as a result of his actions, but had done it out of courtesy to him.
THAT is the fine line between sportsmanship and over-agression.
Marshall,
I don't know you and haven't gotten the March edition yet, but I read Feb.
K3 has just described a beautiful example of racing craftsmanship. It's something we all aspire to achieve.
He's also experienced, unfortunately at my hands, the most egregious example of racing poopiness. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I dropped my leathers and took a giant dump right there on the track for everyone to see, photograph and talk about.
Which brings me to comment that if a racer gets overly aggressive, screws up and punts somebody off the track (sorry K3!) I guarantee that person (assuming he/she has a conscience) will feel like the dumbest shit that ever sat on a bike. And if, God forbid, a racer pushes it too far, crosses the line and initiates contact that results in injury, they'll have a lot to think about for a long time. I honestly don't know if I would have continued racing.
I understand the premise of your article and think it's a good one. I also think it's good to bring the subject out in the open so people can talk about where the limits are.
Like an idiot, I let my RRW subscription lapse and have been too lazy to renew it.
Can somebody post the article?
Quote from: Rich on February 08, 2007, 10:29:58 PM
Like an idiot...
Rich..why do all your statements start out like this..?? :lmao:
Quote from: dylanfan53 on February 08, 2007, 10:19:21 PM
K3 has just described a beautiful example of racing craftsmanship. It's something we all aspire to achieve.
He's also experienced, unfortunately at my hands, the most egregious example of racing poopiness. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I dropped my leathers and took a giant dump right there on the track for everyone to see, photograph and talk about.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Oh, can't breathe!
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
OK, better now. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Ok, maybe not quite.
Well, one thing's for sure. If you're as nice a guy as Don is, crashing into your competitors is a GREAT way to make new friends! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Oh! Stomach cramp! :wah: :lmao: :wah: :lmao:
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on February 08, 2007, 08:30:23 PM
If he hits me, he'd better be the world's fastest apologizer.
Don, you hold the record! :lmao: :thumb:
No where to run to, no place to hide...
:biggrin:
Quote from: Rich on February 08, 2007, 10:29:58 PM
Like an idiot, I let my RRW subscription lapse and have been too lazy to renew it.
Can somebody post the article?
Since it was a RRW article, it is protected by copyright. Also, most of us respect JU as a racer and as an editor, so you'll just have to go to your local B&N to read it. wink
Quote from: dylanfan53 on February 08, 2007, 10:19:21 PM
the most egregious example of racing poopiness.
He said 'poopiness'. :biggrin:
What? You've been hanging around Rhiannon? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Interesting conversation. It occurs to me that if someone enters a corner at the very limit of speed/traction, then physics would say that any change in balance of the bike (due to braking), speed (due to rolling on more), or line (due to standing up), would result, respectively, in a lowside, a runoff, or a runoff. Period. Therefore, I, too raced according to what Ed said (and has already been quoted and confirmed by several in this thread): a clean pass is one in which the rider you're passing does not have to change his or her line. K3's example made it clear - there are no ifs ands or buts. It is not grey. It is not ambiguous. And yes, I've been punted off the track, and have the paint on my tail to prove it. And yes, I've made a shaky pass or two (sorry, Kevin).
-T
PS - when is someone coming out to the Bay area to visit?? It's nice and warm here :thumb:
Quote from: tshort on February 09, 2007, 06:48:03 PM
PS - when is someone coming out to the Bay area to visit?? It's nice and warm here :thumb:
Hey Tom: :kicknuts:
Thanks for taunting us in the frozen tundra! :biggrin:
Quote from: spyderchick on February 09, 2007, 10:04:34 AM
Since it was a RRW article, it is protected by copyright. Also, most of us respect JU as a racer and as an editor, so you'll just have to go to your local B&N to read it. wink
Or steal Spooner's copy
Quote from: spyderchick on February 09, 2007, 06:55:16 PM
Hey Tom: :kicknuts:
Thanks for taunting us in the frozen tundra! :biggrin:
Ouch! Your welcome, Spidey... :kissy: At least you can go ice racing there. All I can do is ride through the redwoods here, watch the stupid ocean waves hitting Stinson Beach, and eat fresh oysters hot off the grill. I know, I know - it's brutal. Always could use some help, tho. ::)
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on February 08, 2007, 08:30:23 PM
Once I've turned in, if another rider suddenly appears beneath me and forces me to change my trajectory, he's 100% in the wrong, and I'm pissed.....
.....As I turned in and set my knee puck on the asphalt, a gleaming silver wheel and yellow fender popped into my peripheral vison. The tire took up a position 6 inches behind my knee, and paced it. I recognizd the wheel as belonging to Ed, so I raised my knee up against the bodywork. Having been given the 8 inches of pavement that my knee was occupying, Ed then completed his pass and was gone.
Abso-phucking-lutely magnificent!
K3, this is a massive contradiction. By your own rationale, you should have been furious about that pass.
If Ed turned inside of you while your knee was on the ground, he clearly must have altered your trajectory. Whether or not you HAD to pick up your knee is irrelevant, he stopped you from making it to your apex.
I'm not saying Ed's pass was wrong, I'm just saying that in racing it's nearly impossible to pass anyone without altering their line.
+1
Hence, Ed's appology. But K3 would have made it to his apex had he not been track day gentlemanly. :biggrin:
Actually, since I wasn't battling anyone, the line I'd chosen had my kneepuck riding the edge of the track at the apex. I'd surprised Ed by going in deeper than he'd expected, and he hadn't established a presence beside me before I turned in. Ed put his bike where it would fit, and waited. When I noticed him and lifted my leg out of his way, Ed ran his tires across the innermost edge of the pavement that I was using for my knee puck, thus putting his bike and body out over the grass.
Just the difference between an average racer out there having fun mid-pack, and a seasoned professional using every last millimeter of the pavement to win his class. And he did it without changing my line. I clearly saw that Ed's tire was pacing my knee. If I hadn't lifted my knee, Ed would have tightened his line at the exit and passed me then.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on February 11, 2007, 05:26:16 PM
If I hadn't lifted my knee, Ed would have tightened his line at the exit and passed me then.
Bullshit.
Ed would have punted you off the outside of the track whilst lobbing you the bird and screaming profanity in his yellow helmet. Then he'd let out a maniacal laugh and continue on with his ruthless winning ways.
:biggrin: :biggrin:
Excellent topic of forum conversation and well written exchanges in RRW by both Marshall and Ed.
Having riden with Marshall for sometime now at NESBA events and last yrs CCS races, and racing with Ed coming from behind in almost every F40 race in the last 2 yrs, I've seen them both in action.
With that, I'd like to say that I would ride and race anytime with either of them, comfortably (not that I could stay with either of them though:). Which makes this a really interesting conversation coming from what I believe to be two of the safest guys on the track.
True, racing is racing, therefore a level of risk is to be expected over and above that of say track days. But deep down I would hope that each of us knows what type of moves are considered sportsmanlike, and which ones are not. The beauty of this forum exchange is to openly discuss them and hopefully for anyone who is unclear of whats accepted and what isn't, to gain an understanding.
The one thing that seems to stick with me when it comes to making the move or not, is "would I be comfortable with someone making the same move on me in a reverse situation?" The ole do on to others....
I think most of us have had learning experiences that we can look back on where we have been on both sides of the "I owe you an apology" thing.
Good topic, good dialog
Paul
Polar-Optics
MW #79
Word
Keep them coming Marshall. I am glad to see your shop looks as bad as mine. See ya at Daytona
I think that most folks consider their own safety before they think about the well being of the guy they're passing. I don't think they do it so much in a poor manner, but rather they have enough stuff going on in their head that they don't really give it a whole lot of thought. There's a lot of things we don't think about on the track though. Which I think is a lot of the addiction to the sport. If we all really thought about the dangers while we were out there, most of us would be sitting on the side lines. Off the track, I think about it and I'm scared to death. I wake up from having dreams of high siding into walls, getting ran over, just crazy stuff. Once I get on the bike though, the things I worry about simply disappears. Unfortunately, a lot of us (my self included) allow the thought of the possible abilities (or lack there of) of the guy in front of us to disappear as well.
I can't say that I've ever had a wreck that was really anyone else's fault but my own. I've learned to just hold steady through a turn if I see a wheel somewhere. I've been spooked pretty bad getting lapped by two experts fighting for the lead on the last of my very first race. Touching elbows kind of close. I had my pretty blue learning curves shirt on and everything. If I hadn't already been so tense and clinched up with it being my first race, I think I'd have shit myself. I figured they were both going for the lead and only thought about getting around me. I'm sure they didn't do it with the intent to freak me out or nearly cause me to wreck. With their experience, they just saw it as safe. I personally wasn't prepared for it. They didn't apologize, and I really didn't expect them to. But if someone wrecked me doing something I thought was stupid, they'd better pray I get hurt really damn bad. But that doesn't mean they thought it was stupid when they did it.
I'm sure I've made a few passes that others may not have felt were totally safe, but again. In my personal opinion, I thought they were. By the same token, I've had guys come up to me after the race or a track day session and apologize for a pass they made. But each time I had to ask who they were and where it happened because to me it wasn't enough to stick in my mind. Just another guy passing me. I did have a guy come up on the inside in turn three on the first lap at mam. I had my elbow on his belly pan for a few seconds. At the time i was cursing him, but I didn't wreck, I held my line, he held his, and all was good. Looking back now, I think it was cool as hell. I wish there had been a camera man there.
Can't say I've ever looked back at something I've done in respect to someone else on the track and thought "damn, I shouldn't have done that." So I think a lot of it comes down to how mentally prepared the guy being passed is. The longer you race though, the easier it gets to handle having someone pacing or passing you on the inside or outside. Whether you are comfortable with it or not, you learn to handle it better. As slow as I am though, I don't have much choice.
well written jester- yea the elbow down pic would a been a keeper- shows alot you didnt fold! Now about the feline remarks in the other thread,,K3 trackdaymag.com,,, :spank: why you :spank:cant call me that,I'm a man! :spank: gotta send ya some soap :spank: for I resemble that remark! :ahhh: Blue shirts are targets -had one Let it Snow
QuoteIf I hadn't already been so tense and clinched up with it being my first race, I think I'd have shit myself.
yup... been there!!
Yeah, that line was funny as hell! Accurate, too. Who HASN'T been there at some point?
I can honestly say, I don't care if anyone "stands me up". As long as it is a clean, no contact pass - then I am OK wit dat. I have lost count of how many times I have been made contact with while racing. Anyone who is in Middleweight or heavyweight can attest to this.
accidents happen. but so do bull headed stupid risks. hard to tell what someone else is thinking or meant to do too.