Well are there! :-/
Pretty sure there's not
Here is national schedule
February 1 Streets of Willow
March 15 Firebird East
April 3 Blackhawk Farms
April 12 Firebird East
April 19 Gateway #
May 2 Summit Point @
May 12 Blackhawk Farms
May 17 Gingerman Raceway
May 18 Gateway #
May 24 Summit Point @
May 29 Blackhawk Farms
May 31 Streets of Willow
June 13 Gateway #
July 4 Mid-America Motorplex
July 5 Buttonwillow
July 11 Jefferson Circuit
July 21 Blackhawk Farms
August 16 Thunderhill
August 21 Blackhawk Farms
August 1 Las Vegas Classic Course @
September 4 Summit Point @
September 8 Blackhawk Farms
September 12 Gateway #
September 27 Gingerman
September 27 Firebird
October 4 Thunderhill
October 3 Gateway #
October 10 Summit Point @
November 1 Buttonwillow
November 15 Firebird East
November 29 Streets of Willow
Looks like there are two at Gateway June 13 and Sept 12
Where there the 14 &15 so friday they have a track day during the practice
there are to a couple weekend that this happens :'(
yep, fridays, so........
are we mixin the practice with the LP track day ??
just curious....
LP sponsors CCS ? rite? or no?
how does it go??
drt (for short) ;)
QuoteHere is national schedule...
April 19 Gateway Saturday?
May 17 Gingerman RacewaySaturday at Gingerman?
September 12 Gateway LP or Midwest Rider?
September 27 GingermanSaturday? Really?
I am confused. Eric said that there will be 2 at Gateway June 13 and Sept 12 but these are both Friday's. April 19 at Gateway is a Saturday but it is not a race weekend. It looks like Gingerman May 17 and Sept 27 which are the only 2 Gingerman's on the race schedule for MW/GP/GL. So there is a LP trackday on a Saturday which is a race day! What is the schedule for the day? Will it be like a Learning Curves school were they get 3 sessions throughout the day?
From what I can see theres 2 sat. and 4 fridays LP track daysthe Friday LP days are at Mid-America, Blackhawk, Gateway. those wont be as bad as the saturdays.
The Fridays at Gateway are put on by Midwest Rider, unless CCS changed something, but I talked to Neville today and confirmed his dates. The weekends at Gateway, April 19th and May 18th don't occur during races and are being put on by Midwest Rider with a focu on cruisers. Check their site, www.midwestrider.com.
Gingerman? Saturday? Really? If so, cool for me, too bad for the racers. :) Mid America too. For me next season there will be a few factors that can help me justify the travel expense and time for MAM, Gingerman, and Gateway. 1) I get to ride, automatically worth the trip. :) 2) race coverage, if I'm doing it next season... and of course 3) people buy photos which helps me cover costs.
So I'm excited about getting the opportunity to get out for a few sessions instead of just watching all the fun. But I'm a special case. Not sure why someone would go to all the trouble for just a few sessions and not an entire track day. I'd rather just tack on an extra day and get some time in on Monday or Friday.
It should be interesting....
Oil,Oil,Oil,Oil,slide,slide,slide,bang zoom smash
Oil, do you really think all of the street squids will drain there coolant or that tech will check what's in the radiator! The schedule on the other thread on this topic showed all amateur racers combined with the advanced trackday class for practice. This strikes me as unsafe for everyone involved. I would suggest 3 Ambulances on the premises.
The question was about LP days on Fridays in Midwest the topic was changed at some point so my previous post does not make sense with changed question.
If you look there are no Sat dates in MW at race events but there are LP dates at other tracks on Sat.
Eric, May 17th is a Great PLains race weekend that is a Saturday. September 27th is a Saturday and that is a Midwest race weekend. July 4th is a friday run at Mid-America that is a friday that is also a twin sprint weekend so that is a race day also. September12th you have down on the LP sch. as a track day at Gateway Intl. that is a twin sprint also so the 12th is for the 30 min races right? This is why i changed the heading.Joe
QuoteOil, do you really think all of the street squids will drain there coolant or that tech will check what's in the radiator!
Oh, like anyone has ever checked what's in YOUR RADIATOR? Safety wire and the honor system are all you have to count on as a racer. I have certianly gone out unwired after a major thrash to make a race. Who hasn't? Street bikes oiling up our track is a very small concern.
all amateur racers combined with the advanced trackday class for practice. This strikes me as unsafe for everyone involved. I would suggest 3 Ambulances on the premises.
This is a much bigger concern. Last year, I was among the faster amateurs. I was having trouble avoiding some of the slower amateurs when I lapped them. (I guess that's why I'll get to be one of the slower experts this year...) I can't imagine the carnage that will result when you mix the slowest of the track day people with the fastest of the amateurs. Closing speeds, corner speed, braking distance, and line dicipline will be radically different. Let's not mince words. Imagine a very fast amateur slicing under a very slow track day person while approacheing turn two at Blackhawk. The track day person suddenly decides he needs to be more to the left to enter the corner, and moves over into the path of the amateur. The collision occurs at over 100 mph with a 40 mph speed difference. Parts and pieces fly. Bones break. Then the whole mess slams into that rusty old guardrail at 80 mph.
This scenario or a similar one could happen just as easily with a Learning Curves student, but at least then there is the warning signal of a tee shirt over his leathers to let the experienced rider know that this is an inexperienced person. It's really not logical to have to be looking for taped over tail lights while negotiating a race track at speed.
I already know how this will work. The race director will stand up there at the riders meeting and remind the racers that it is their responsibility as experienced track dwellers to give the track day people some slack. How nice. Now the track day riders are absolved of responsibility for their own stupidity. CCS is absolved of their responcibility of mixing incompatable riders and creating a dangerous situation. If anything bad happens, it's all the fault of the big bad racer being too agressive around the street people. Isn't it ironic that the CCS will sell us track time, then tell us not to use it to the full extent?
Dress this any way you want, but CCS is taking track time that we've paid for, selling it to a different group of people, and then offering to sell some back to us in a much more dangerous format. We can complain forever, but the CCS is 100% profit driven, so they really don't care what we want. (No offense ment toward all the wonderful CCS workers who took this job primarily out of their love for racing. You aren't the ones who are entrusted to make these decisions. That would be too effin logical!) Really, the only solution it to go race somewhere else. There have been so many issues with CCS in the last two years that I am seriously considering this for 2004. The only way that CCS will realize that they cease to exist without customers is for the customers to leave. Right now, they treat us like they own us. After my house payment, racing is my biggest single expenditure in a year. If there is not a signifigant change in the policy and attitude of CCS in 2003, I will certianly have to excersize my right as a consumer and go looking for a better deal.
I don't know what to say.
My feeling is that many track day guys don't race. And I don't think they will be very attracted to a track day offered by a racing organization during a racing event.
The groups will be separated so that in the "race groups" the track day guys will be pretty fast, at least reasonable.
I am still confused did Eric say that there are no Sat LP events for the MW?
Chris as far as being on the Honor system that racers have water not coolant in there radiators thats one thing but if you think that street bikes being used for a trackday 1 time in a year are willing to drain there coolant and then re-install that coolant the next day is quite another. I am not an expert but I was under the impression that coolant was worse than oil to clean.
Gingerman is on the MW schedule, so yes. It is also on the GP & GL schedule. That will be the only time there is a SRD on a Saturday in the area.
Quote I am not an expert but I was under the impression that coolant was worse than oil to clean.
It is.
There are two dates that are twin sprint weekends that we will be practicing with the track riders on friday too, there both at Mid-America.One is in July and the other is in September.
Coolant and oil are bad. They clean up. All I was trying to say was that the oily track issue was insignifigent compared to the bigger picture. Unskilled riders can take you out. It takes months to heal. The majority of track day riders are not skilled enough to mix with the fastest amateurs, and they have not made the monitary and mental comittment that even the newest racer has. I think riding with them can be dangerous.
There are exceptions. I rode during a track day at Gateway. There were a few experienced local guys there on big street bikes who just left me on my lightweight superbike. There were also riders who scared me to death. Visionsports has some very good street riders as regular students.
The problem is that these guys are exceptions. I don't fault them for wanting to ride the track. Didn't we all start that way? I did two schools and a track day before I enrolled in race school to get my license. I fault CCS for selling them our time, and then selling that time back to us so we can go ride with them. Rider entries pay for the track, and we should get all the time. How often do we get our races shortened because time was needed for a clean-up? How much tighter will the schedule be now? I'm very angry about this. It's like your landlord renting your second bedroom to someone else without asking you, charging you the same price for what's left of your apartment, and then trying to charge you extra rent if you want to go in that room again! Every year we pay more. Every year CCS devises new ways to make things harder and more expensive. Would it be too much to ask that we racers at least get sole use of the facility during OUR race weekend?
Understand that as an expert, I will never have to practice with those guys. I object to this based on how I would have felt last year, and also because I feel that any time not used for races should be given to us racers as practice. There isn't enough practice now. CCS has answerd that concern by adding track day riders to the mix, and saying that we can still ride with them for an additional fee. They obviously don't care about the dangerously short amount of time we have been getting to set up our bikes and learn new tracks. All they want is more of our money, and more money from other sources. This is the most blatant ripoff CCS has leveled at us racers to date. It is completely indefensable.
I've never had a problem with the street squids. In fact, I have WAY more experience as a street squid than a racer.
95%+ of them do not ride in the advanced group anyway, they are too scared of the racers. Those that do have to drain their coolant and be safety wired. Also, those that do can usaully handle a bike easily as well as a mid-pack Amateur.
I personally feel the more street guys we get to the track, the better it is for racing and our sport in the long run.
I have a bigger concern when GS500's are out there with GSXR1000's. Regardless of the skill level of the riders, that much disaprity in speed is dangerous, witness the Putnam accident a little over a year ago.
I think the visual you are looking for is a 250 Ninja and a Hayabusa at the end of the straight of Mid-America Motorplex. :o
I agree with K3.
PS - I don't think I ever met you last year Chris. Looking forward to it this year.
Just look for a guy as sexy as you... 8)
The groups are well divided. I don't think it will be too bad. Will it attract more riders to race? I cannot say one way or another. Any extra paying pocket books are good for our racing community so long as our safety is not jeopardized.
I think the schedule is cramped... That is my biggest concern.
Chris, I think you're right on that CCS is looking for a way to sell time back to the racers. How successful are the sport rider days? Are people really going to bring their bike to a track, usually tracks are not located in your back yard, to ride for 1/2 a day or less? I doubt it.
What I think CCS is doing is this, say at Blackhawk you have 40 racers in a grid, but when we go to Gingerman the same race brings 20 racers. I think what they're doing is combining two races to get the same 40 racer grid. Now you can take the slot of the combined race and sell it to track day riders, or more likely, racers who want more practice. Sucks, but it's economics.
Like your apartment for example. Imagine you paid rent based upon how much you used your apartment. Say you only used it 20 days out of the month, so you pay for the 20 days. But the owner tells the landlord he needs to collect 30 days worth of rent out of your apartment, so the landlord sublets your apartment for the other 10 days. Well, you get the idea.
Since attendance is down at Gingerman, seems like this same solution that is being used in the other regions, which have attendance problems, is going to be used at Gingerman as well. I know how racers could combat this but don't we want the organization to succeed.
Eric said that your time on the track will be no different than it was before. Now you have the opportunity to practice more, something you've been asking for--of course it doesn't come free. ;D
Bigger grids I guess. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm not saying I agree with it. But I'm guessing this is the logic behind it.
You got to watch him Hitchthingy, he's a smooth talker! ;D
QuoteI agree with K3.
PS - I don't think I ever met you last year Chris. Looking forward to it this year.
I ride with the ChiTown Hustlers race team. Big red trailer, black bikes. My # is 333, now on the freshly painted, sacrificial virgin white plate... See you at Blackhawk!
K3
Bill
Chris is a great guy and a lot of fun to be around but he does need a lot of help keeping his bike running and on the track, sorry Chris just joking around with you.
Craig
YOU try winning championships on a 12-year old Frankenbike with double it's original HP!! Stuff breaks! But that's why I always pitted by the Schock squad. They don't know how to fix anything, (Honda riders, no practice) but they have lots of spare nuts and bolts in the trailer! ;D
Chris K3...
Check out my thread on "SW/Pacific Schedule (again)" for my comments from this weekend at Streets of Willow. I agree with you whole-heartedly...very scary and crowded...fortunately not many street squids showed up!
These LP trackdays are a joke and take away the cred of real racers looking for sponsors. LP trackdays are a tool to make more money and complicate an already busy weekend, this much we know. Here are six questions:
How many minutes of practice did you guys get on average this year?
Isn't practice what makes safe, experienced racers?
Would the scca let me practice with their fastest ams in a mechanically sound 1989 Honda Prelude?
Can those of you that know me assume the worst if I was allowed to do that?
Should you think about what K3 is saying in his analysis and at least give it a thought?
Finally, if you aren't the least bit agitated by LPtrackdays on race sat., what the heck is wrong with you?
"We are a business trying to make money = we can screw you if it makes money", does not fly with me and it really pisses me off.
I feel sorry for you younger guys that will be racing long after I retire. We have the money, racers! We have the power! Don't be afraid..........................
Yeah! Great points!
I guess I've always looked at it this way... If racers don't race...there would be no need for racing organizations. We are the egg, not the chicken... Without an organization, another one could be created or we just move to another one.
But the sponsorship dollars... that's good.
As for the practice time... seems like Bill has been streamlining our system soo much at some of the races in the Midwest that we are really getting screwed on time. We used to have open practice on Saturday after the races when there was time left. Now, we just whip through and we're done. That's getting out money's worth...
I agree with what Dave is saying about another series being created but wasnt that tryed befor with glrra?
Sure. And there still is WERA, CRA, etc. Racers race. Without racers, there is no organization.
How's that go...
First there was one car. Then there was two. And car racing was born.
QuoteChris K3...
Check out my thread on "SW/Pacific Schedule (again)" for my comments from this weekend at Streets of Willow. I agree with you whole-heartedly...very scary and crowded...fortunately not many street squids showed up!
I remember my first few practice sessions as a racer. Every lightweight bike (60-70) that showed up that weekend in one Am/Ex all skate. I'm doing 2:00 laps on a Comp K shod EX500 as Ed Key (multi time National Champ) and friends pass me on SVs at 1:20. I almost quit on the spot.
Fast forward 3 years. I'm rolling a wicked-fast FZR560 on fresh Pirelli slicks, 2 weekends away from a regional championship, with the #2 points man up my @$$. Last lap. I get held up by a pair of riders fresh from school. They decided to leave the shirts off, so there's no warning. They're friends, playing pass-me pass-you, unaware that the devil and his brother are coming hard from behind. The slow guys both go inside well before the corner. No time to play. I go outside, blaze past, crank the bike onto my knee, and roll it on. Three turns later, the red flag comes out.
My competitor followed me around the slow guys. There was room. Even the corner workers said so. The newbie freaked, never tried to brake or turn, and left a front tire rubber mark on the rear # plate of my competitor. From there, he went head first into the wall. Helicoptor. Nice way to end his first race.
These guys were racers. First day racers, but still racers. They forgot everything they had been taught the day before in Rick Brewer's excellent Learning Curves school. How much less training have track day people had?
I was a danger to the fast guys when I started. CMRA has a squid class for beginners. Until they demonstrate that they have a clue, that's where they race. CCS expects us to practice with first-timers and track day people. Dangerous for us, dangerous for them. I wish I lived in CMRA country.
QuoteI agree with what Dave is saying about another series being created but wasnt that tryed befor with glrra?
GLRRA was a great organization. It was founded on the principles that CCS wasn't cutting it and GLRRA could do better. In my opinion, they did. Eric Nacke and his crew were personable and listened to you. They were very concerned with safety and punishing rule violators, including tech violations. Eric saw the big picture, but it became a one track series at Grattan when CCS offered many tracks. The contingency got screwed up often and payouts were very slow if they got there at all. Still, almost everybody liked Eric and crew and believed they were out for our best interests. I'm sorry to see GLRRA gone and I quess I helped by not racing there at all last year. Where is the best of both worlds?
What's good, what's bad? Guess we have to start there.
It will never be cheap, we can count on that.
I think there should be racing for riders that a specifically in their first year, or something. Then another class for the riders that have moved up from their first amateur year, or don't wish to race where the crazy fast guys are. You could call that the pro class.
Seems as though there are people that don't want to be what we call expert, and there are amateurs that have been doing this for four to eight years.
Okay I have a habit of opening my mouth one I shouldn't. I am guessing this might be a prime example.
QuoteThese LP trackdays are a joke and take away the cred of real racers looking for sponsors.
Have you ever heard the phrase "Race it on Sunday, Sell it on Monday!"?
Well the way I see it, With the "squids" there, there are more pockets to pick from. Thus more potential sponsors wanting their name on the Go fast bikes. Having a track day on the weekends might draw more interest to the sport, as people will not be forced to take time off of work. Might just be my prospective, but I don't see the track day as being a problem with sponsors.
(p.s. I don't think sponsor will have any problem knowing who is a "real racer" in fact the "squids" make the racers look that much faster)
K3 Chris,
Are you talking about the turn 4 incident at BHF last race on Sunday?
I was there that weekend, and I even took class, two weeks earlier, with the guy (Spencer) that crashed.
*Note*
This is where I go off on a bit of a tangent!
I whole heartily agree there should be a separate race of complete newbies.
But... there is a worst problem here. The skills of complete newbies are SO far apart, not to mention the bikes they bring. When I took my licensing class we had a EX250 Ninja to a built RC51 and everything in between. To mix those all together is a recipe for disaster as it is. Though I understand that is no happy medium here, I agree to a point it should be addressed.
What options do a new racer have to learn?
Track days!!
Till the time I was ready to go racing, I never knew there were track days. Had I known that, I may have waited to get licensed.
I humbly think that anyone showing up for a track day on a race weekend might think twice before the jump headfirst into racing. Though I am not 100% clear as to how the track day time will interfere with the normal schedule, I am pretty sure CCS will handle it in the safest of manners.
Further on the thought, I honestly think that having weekend dates will help attendance, drawing more people to the track.
Maybe I am missing the down side to this (aside from the oil-coolant part), but I see this as a possible good thing.
I guess you weren't at Willow this past weekend to witness the recipe for disaster yourself then...? :o
ok you guys are making me nervous.
I've decided to jump head first and go racing this year. I did some track days last year, and after that had a problem riding on the street (doing stupid and crazy stuff, cause 65 just aint what it used to be). So im going racing, got what i needed to convert my bike to a race bike, and signe up for some races.
At the track days i was in the Intermediate group, but i was definitle being held back by most guys there. So i've been told that fast I group guys should be ok to start racing.
But, i'll be going to tracks ive never been to before. I originally thought the LP days could give me more track time (which i desperatly need to learn all the new tracks). But it dont look like it.
I just hope that im not one of the guys thats going to slow to be a saftey risk to the other ones.
Oh and im not happy that the LP days are taking track time away from practice (or making it too crowded) , and the blackhawk schools. My 2 cents
Danger, Danger, Will Robinson. I think one point your missing is that fast trackday rider's on liter class bikes mixing it up with slow amateur's on lightweight machines will make for dramatic closing speed's. Are we the racer's responsible for this due to low attendance at Gingerman. Why the f### doesn't anyone show up to Gingerman? It's close, the pit's are paved, the track surface is good. Is it a lack of a straightaway? Are we to lazy to drive what 2 hours?
Me? I loved my first trip to Gingerman.
And I hear there are spare brake pads on the bottom of the pond ;D
Didn't make it to Gingerman last year, wanted to, it's about 7 hours for me, i'm sure longer for others. Don't assume it's 2 hours for everyone. It came down to lack of money and time, I need a tire tree or money tree, anyone have some seeds? :)
It can go both ways. I was at a Friday trackday/practice at Gateway last year. Some dip on an Aprilia felt the need to try and stuff me in the chicane going back onto the banking, he ended up going in to hot and blowing the chicane anyway, what a dumb move.
As a track day rider, I have my own concerns. Turn out will probably be dismal, so CCS will probably bunch all track day riders into one group. Closing speeds, yeah I worry about that too, but I also worry about the nube following me into turn 1 and punting me when he gets in over his head. It goes both ways....
Track days, racing, it's always been dangerous, always will be. It would be nice though to think the people running the show have the riders' safety as their primary concern.
Still why should we have to pay extra to practice!havent we payed enough to practice that day? entry fees gate fees.I just dont feel its rite to put some of the people in with people that have been racing for a year or two. Some guys do track days and are realy fast,there not the ones that im thinking of its the people that think that there fast and go into the advance group. Just because they think there fast on the street doesnt meen there fast on the track.remember way back when when we all got are first dose of reality?!! ::)
QuoteOkay I have a habit of opening my mouth when I shouldn't.
K3 Chris,
Are you talking about the turn 4 incident at BHF last race on Sunday?
I was there that weekend, and I even took class, two weeks earlier, with the guy (Spencer) that crashed.
Oh, I wouldn't know anything about that opening mouth thing! ;D
Yes, that was the incident. How did he make out? Do you know?
What happened was really a shame. To be honest, when we caught them it was just as bad as if we had been street racing. The speed difference was just that great. I agree with your observation that newbies have a very wide range of beginning skill levels. I was finishing 20th out of 30 my first weekend, but was 40 seconds off the lead expert's pace. Did we belong out there together?
This year, a crop of 15-year olds showed up. They'd been racing since age 5, but were road racing newbies. It took them 2-3 weekends to start winning, and by seasons end, I saw one of them get a few overall Am/Ex wins from the back on the Am grid! How do you sort these new guys out? That's what the squid class is for. Race there until you've proven yourself to be safe and fast enough to not be a hazard to those you will be sharing the track with.
And the squid class could be run in that huge gaping hole of unused time between our ample practice and our overly-long races that is currently being sold to track day people. Now there's a new session that I would have no problem with!
O.K. Xian, Race on sunday doesn't mean trackdays. You see, a trackday is not racing. You don't realise many of the experts, myself included, don't like having to deal with squids sharing our weekend. Period! I am at a loss because I don't know exactly how to explain it to you. I want to share the track with racebikes, not streetbikes with tape and very inexperienced riders. I don't want to tell my sponsor that his mom, (without a race liscence) can come out and ride too. It takes away from the cred of what I do. Some of us racers are tired of the too little track time we get at a CCS weekend already. These LP days threaten tracktime because ambulances and red flags don't promote practicing. Bikes that wouldn't pass CCS tech are also a threat to tracktime and overall safety of the racing surface. This fact is very scary to me! Very, very scary to me! Racing is inherently dangerous. The margin for error for most experts and fast ams is very small. Lack of practice and possible fluids from tech issues will expose this margin and seriously hurt man and machine. This is a fact! I enjoy criticism, so shoot!!!
Matt "chris" "chops" "mothra" "hurricane" "spider" Carr sooooooooooooo many nicknames
Listern here you spider! Call me this week dammit!
I do potentially agree that having a track day on Saturday might cause a track day guy to become interested in racing.
Interested in THE racing going on? Probably not, because CCS and the Teams/riders do an awful job of promoting what needs to be promoted...riders. Racing is made up of personalities... Rossi, Gordon, Andretti's, etc. Get the picture?
So, who's gonna care? They won't. They'll probably do their track day and leave. Go to Gateway for the track day on Friday. After the day, the 90 guys that ride clear out and leave the place a ghost town.
I believe that you get practice on Saturday, regardless. But, for like $50, you can get some extra practice. Kind of like entering another race. I think you get two or three extra sessions.
duc955... The receipe was there for disaster... Did it happen?
K3 Chris Onwiler
I don't know the guy that crashed at BHF other then taking the class with him, and seeing him that weekend of the crash. I do believe his injuries where only a few broken bones, and a punctured lung.
Not to mention one really expensive Heli bill.
Matt "chris" "chops" "mothra" "hurricane" "spider" Carr What ever you want to be called...
I 100% agree about tech issues of the bikes. I hope the tech boys have enough sense to pull all the track day guys radiator caps.
What I meant in regards to "race it on Sunday"... it's the squids that are the ones wanting the go fast bikes and gear. By bring them closer to action, the more they may want to buy. Sponsors love people with open wallets!
In addition to that, by having a track day on Saturday might draw more interest to the track day and hopefully curve people from jumping headfirst into racing.
There seems to be a lot of concern about the track day guys mixing it up with the fast Ams and Exs, but I firmly believe CCS is not going to let a complete newbie go out on the track with these guys. If CCS were willing to, we would have open practice every morning.
From what was written in another tread, it was stated our track time would NOT change. If that is true, then you have the option to NOT pay the extra fee for the "track day" time.
"Super" Dave
I agree CCS does an awful job of promoting track days. Till I was 90% ready to get licensed I never even knew about CCS's track days.
QuoteThe margin for error for most experts and fast ams is very small. Lack of practice and possible fluids from tech issues will expose this margin and seriously hurt man and machine. This is a fact! I enjoy criticism, so shoot!!!
Can I get a He11 Yeah? Nice job. It took me 2000 words to say exactly what you said in that post. Nice..
QuoteI believe that you get practice on Saturday, regardless. But, for like $50, you can get some extra practice. Kind of like entering another race. I think you get two or three extra sessions.
This is the other thing that irks me. We don't get enough practice time now. We've paid for the track with our thousands and thousands of dollars in entry fees. If, and I definitly do mean IF, there is any extra time in the schedule, I believe that we already own it, need it, and deserve it. Where does CCS get off selling it back to us?
I'm doing all right now, but when I started, all I had was a $500 EX500 and maybe $200 to pay for the occasional weekend. If you get 3 five lap sessions of ultra crowded practice and 3 eight lap races for your measly beginner budget, You're only getting about 40 laps a weekend. At Road America, you might only get 10-15 laps all weekend. If your classes are small and you happen to run at a double points weekend or two, you might be qualified for an expert license with only 100 laps of track time under your belt!
We shouldn't have to pay extra for practice during a race weekend. We've paid for it already. CCS is stealing from us.
K3,
I was in turn 4, in the corner station, when Spence Huard crashed that last race weekend. He did not freak. He was hit mid corner by someone trying to pass him on the inside where there was no room, stood him up and yes, he did try braking.
I sent him photos of the crash, one with the rear tire off the ground as he tried as hard as possible to slow before running off the track.
This is not in defense of a friend, I've never met the guy. Just want to set it right that he is not a squid that screwed up. He was taken out by a more "experienced" rider. :o
Quote....We shouldn't have to pay extra for practice during a race weekend. We've paid for it already. CCS is stealing from us.
Depends, have you done the math? Are they making a respectable profit without doing what they're proposing? Did they go to Gingerman to bring another track to the riders but need some type of measure to make it profitable until more locals or more people make the trip?
Believe me, I don't want to be on the defense here, but I don't think you're considering all the sides, just the fact that you don't want things opened to another group of riders. I understand the concerns, and I agree with you, it should be a race weekend and I doubt track-day riders will attend or even be attracted to this event.
If you're fed up and want to affect change, boycott it, speek with your $$$. Ask yourself what would happen if not one track day rider signed up and not one racer signed up for the extra time. But be careful, it might not be what you expect. Maybe in 2004 Gingerman will be a one-day event, or maybe not an event at all.
OK, so I looked at some rough numbers... Gingerman September 28, 2002. There were approximately 335 race entries, total. In comparison, Blackhawk August 24, 2002 there were approximately 540 race entries. That's a difference of 205 race entries. How should a business make up that difference?
All I'm asking is that you look at things from all sides and if you choose to do something that you affect change in a positive way.
Going off on a tangent... I hear ideas all the time, people with a lot of suggestions on how things should be done--a better way. Yet very rarely do I see someone step up to the plate and do something. Instead I see people tear things down rather than pitching in and building something.
I don't mean to attack you guys. And believe my, I understand your frustration, not exactly in this matter but others concerning CCS. So much to the point where I ask myself if it's worth the aggravation--life is so short.
You know Jack brings up a good point.but I do agree with K3 it is like stealing.how much can they suck out of you in one day, a gt race is 70 as it is, with extra practice which in my own thoughts should come with the races that you payed for, so, one day, one race and practice is over a hundred dollars.I knew getting into this sport it was expensive but there has to be a line on how much. next thing are we going to pay for practice on Sunday too?They stated this on SAt. when will it carry over to Sun and other weekends, if they want the track day then so be it but if its on a race day then they sould have to follow the same tech rules as the rest, slow, fast, or indifferent.
QuoteK3,
I was in turn 4, in the corner station, when Spence Huard crashed that last race weekend. He did not freak. He was hit mid corner by someone trying to pass him on the inside where there was no room, stood him up and yes, he did try braking.
I sent him photos of the crash, one with the rear tire off the ground as he tried as hard as possible to slow before running off the track.
This is not in defense of a friend, I've never met the guy. Just want to set it right that he is not a squid that screwed up. He was taken out by a more "experienced" rider. :o
Really. That's not what I heard that day, but then again, I was talking to the "more experienced" rider and his corner worker buddy. I have never held a high reguard for that particular guy, and as such did not mention his name. either before or now. Do you recall that I made a clean pass between 3 and 4 down the outside?
In my opinion the basic concept of putting street riders with racers is a flawed and dangerous idea. As stated before even in the amateur ranks one can experience a wide variance of skill and ability that can lead to some situations. Now take this one step further and the skill level variance gets widened even further. One thing for certain is that a situation where something can happen is increased. I would hope that this trend does not continue. Leave the racing to the race organizations and in the same manner leave the track days to the track day organizations.
It also makes me wonder why they require anyone who wants to race to complete a race school in order to obtain a race license. Now they turn around and create a venue where they combine racers with street riders?? ::) Why make the distinction in the first place if you just end up combining them anyway???? Bad idea.
QuoteK3,
I was in turn 4, in the corner station, when Spence Huard crashed that last race weekend. He did not freak. He was hit mid corner by someone trying to pass him on the inside where there was no room, stood him up and yes, he did try braking.
I guess I owe Spence an apology. Sorry man. That incident happened maybe 1 second behind me. I took an outside line and passed on the way to the turn-in point to give Spence some room. I guess the "Experienced Racer" who I was leading must have tried to go under us both? Or perhaps I had already left Spence, (That would be my guess, or I would also have been caught up in the wreck.) and the other guy just stuffed him. "Experienced Racer" told me he was hit from behind and inside at the apex. (That wouldn't be the first time he's been caught lying.)
Weggie man, I don't doubt you a bit. You saw it with your own eyes. I just feel bad that I dissed a guy who didn't deserve it. Again, I'm sorry.
Still doesn't change my opinion about LP days, squid races, or CCS stealing our time, though...
QuoteStill doesn't change my opinion about LP days, squid races, or CCS stealing our time, though...
;D :-*
Chris, I just wanted to say that the comment I made about people not contributing was not directed towards you at all. You are very proactive and I've seen you do a lot of good things for this sport. You've earned my respect for that!
SESSIONS FOR STREET GUYS AND RACERS ARE SEPARATE!!!! :o
QuoteSESSIONS FOR STREET GUYS AND RACERS ARE SEPARATE!!!! :o
I'm not sure about that Dave. According to Kevin's schedule:
Quote8:00AM Practice as follows:
· Group 1: All Expert Licensed Racers
· Group 2: All Amateur Licensed Racers
and LP USA Advanced Riders
· Group 3: All LP USA Sport Riders
· Group 4: All LP USA Street Riders
So AM racers and Advanced LP riders share the track. So it begs the question, how does one become an LP Advanced rider?
But in reality when 5 LP riders show up, what's going to happen? Not to mention how many races were shortened or combined last season to deal with weather?
To be "Advanced" the rider has to have a bike fully CCS prepped, including catch pan lowers. They've got to be pretty darn good to fit in there....
This was a big concern when putting together some days with the Sport Rider Days...
As for small numbers, then you change it. Move things around, give more time...
In reality, this is just a cure for a symptom which is the eroding of the road racer base. Fewer riders getting involved in racing. The average age is in the 30's now. I have to admit that I've noticed that in my years racing too. Fewer new, young guys.
How to eliminate this problem. Well, I started teaching schools, getting guys involved, helping out. But, over time, I understand that racing is not for everyone. You can lead them to the water....
Quote;D :-*
Chris, I just wanted to say that the comment I made about people not contributing was not directed towards you at all. You are very proactive and I've seen you do a lot of good things for this sport. You've earned my respect for that!
Well gosh, Jack! Now I'm blushing! Might as well make this a mutual admiration society. I don't suppose I have to tell you again how much every racer in the MW/GL/GP area appreciates your web site, photos, results, and stories?
Face it. We're both addicted. Make that We're all addicted!
P.S. Bring LOTS of calenders to the banquet. Whatever you've got, it won't be enough. Nice job!
QuoteTo be "Advanced" the rider has to have a bike fully CCS prepped, including catch pan lowers. They've got to be pretty darn good to fit in there....
This was a big concern when putting together some days with the Sport Rider Days...
As for small numbers, then you change it. Move things around, give more time...
In reality, this is just a cure for a symptom which is the eroding of the road racer base. Fewer riders getting involved in racing. The average age is in the 30's now. I have to admit that I've noticed that in my years racing too. Fewer new, young guys.
How to eliminate this problem. Well, I started teaching schools, getting guys involved, helping out. But, over time, I understand that racing is not for everyone. You can lead them to the water....
Dave I agree on your assessment. However, I feel the underlying concern is the combining of racers with non racers. Taking it to another level, I have somewhat of a problem with racers who are not out there to race but are simply having fun riding around. I suppose the race licsence and number plates allows them to brag to their buddies back home that they are racing. ::) I guess I thought racing was for racing and conversly track days for track riding. I do not think that this is the best possible answer with regard to getting new blood involved in the our sport. I also think that it is cyclical in nature and new racers will again begin to become involved.
I give up on this thread, let's give it a rest!
Let's see what it's all about and then draw our conclusions. Right now, I think it sucks! Maybe that will change.
Jack,
I agree about being proactive. Personally, I go after CCS for not being concerned enough about safety. I feel my offering of my opinion right in their face without yelling at them does some good. Sure would be nice if all of the racers had this same spirit. Most importantly, continuing to talk among eachother will give us ideas on what we can do to get what where we want. You do a good job of remaining fairly subjective even though you are in it for money. I will now dissappear off of this thread!
Matt
QuoteI give up on this thread, let's give it a rest!
Let's see what it's all about and then draw our conclusions. Right now, I think it sucks! Maybe that will change.
Jack,
I agree about being proactive. Personally, I go after CCS for not being concerned enough about safety. I feel my offering of my opinion right in their face without yelling at them does some good. Sure would be nice if all of the racers had this same spirit. Most importantly, continuing to talk among eachother will give us ideas on what we can do to get what where we want. You do a good job of remaining fairly subjective even though you are in it for money. I will now dissappear off of this thread!
Matt
Being a watchdog and going after someone is one thing, but what I'm saying is be constructive, offer a solution, or at the least understanding. Of course, being able to offer a solution assumes that you could actually communicate with CCS and find out what the problem is. :)
It's probably too late to steer this ship in another direction, but don't you think CCS has some magic number? Some monetary figure or ROI they need to meet on an event? if we could get
X number of racers to pre-register for Gingerman that CCS would stop this sillyness? I don't know, has anyone asked? Does that seem like a reasonable thing to do?
Message Boards are an interesting place. People grab a bone and run with it. The snow ball becomes an avalanche and before you know it, it's the end of the world. Another problem with message boards is that for a company with problems it can become an undefendable stream, something they can't cope with and instead just tuck their heads in their shells and forget it exists. And then there is no more communication.
And for me being in it for the money? That's an interesting comment. I'll admit I no longer give my photos away or do it for charity. But if I was in it for money things would be different. It makes no busines sense to go to every Blackhawk, heck I'd be like the other guys and show up maybe one event a year spend my time shooting a vareity of groups like SBK2, go carts, or heck weddings. Ask yourself how much time it would take to design a calendar like I did, and how much it would cost to print 26 color pages. Heck ask yourself how many photos you bought from me and multiply that by the rest of the racers and that will answer your question.
I know I said I was off the thread, but one more thing. I really like your pictures and I gotta beleive your doing them for money. This isn't bad, free enterprise is good and I think what you are doing is awesome. I like making money as well. As soon as I have money again, I'm all over buying some photos.
Exposing safety issues is new to me, and the more info and insight all of us racers share, the better. I'm ready for the next step. We'll talk at Knupp's pre-banquet party. I only summarize here.
Matt
QuoteI know I said I was off the thread, but one more thing. I really like your pictures and I gotta beleive your doing them for money. This isn't bad, free enterprise is good and I think what you are doing is awesome. I like making money as well. As soon as I have money again, I'm all over buying some photos.
Matt
Does Jack make money on this stuff? Absolutely not. I'm aware of the kind of $$$ he's invested in equipment as well as time. Travel expenses are added to that. Jack takes photos for the love of the art. He attends the races for the love of the sport and the people.
Buy pictures from Jack knowing that he's in this sport for the love, and his photos are a testament to that.
Agreed!
I think this is good to have a forum. Ideas? Lots of them. CCE is has enacted a hiring freeze according to Kevin Elliott. Now, the communication is kind of poor, and we admit anything less.
But I've known Kevin Elliott for quite a while. And I will add this...
I don't know how he can put up with all the mayhem. I think he must be some kind of an angel the way he can deal with everyone. And I think most people deal with him by yelling...LOL!
Really, if not Kevin Elliott, then who?
He might make some decisions that are not popular, with me, with you, with all the other riders, with CCE, but he will at least stand by his decision and usually admit a problem if there really is one.
Yes, I think Sport Rider Days on race weekends suck... But until it happens, I really can't say. Will it allow us to continue racing? Might help. Would I like to have more people enter so that we wouldn't have this problem? Yes...
QuoteAgreed!
I don't know how he can put up with all the mayhem. I think he must be some kind of an angel the way he can deal with everyone. And I think most people deal with him by yelling...LOL!
...
I've talked to Kevin many times. He's been a racer, and has been involved in racing all his life. He's one of us, really. I imagine that he is in a sense the mouthpiece for many unpopular decisions that come down from corporate. I wouldn't want his job. Sure, I've wanted to smack him a time or two, but I have a lot of respect for the man. We do need to realize that he doesn't own CCS.
With GLRA or was it GLLRA dead shouldn't this increase Gingerman's number's for the CCS? I can only assume that most GLRA racer's will race with the CCS and that Gingerman will be the track they most likely attend.
WERA took up some Grattan dates from where GLRRA was. One, I know, directly conflicts with the Gingerman CCS date. Maybe two.
I haven't read the enitre thread, so I don't know if this has already been said.
I read somewhere along this thread that the advanced lp rider's will race with the am's. Is that correct? Well the first time I ever rode on a track was during a track day. It was totally aribitrary whether I considered "myself" to be an advanced rider or a novice rider. I made a lot of mistakes and really wasn't comfortable "racing" with other track day riders.
Now I didn't do the lp track day, so I don't know what they cover and when you are allowed to call yourself an advanced rider. Is it after you've taken the LCR school? If that's the case, why don't they get a license and be official.
I have a serious problem if they have not taken any kind of racing school education, mainly for the basics like flags and track etiquette. If they are not aware of these basic things, they have no business racing with licensed racers.
It's a privilege to race, not a right.
There are some reasonable standards above the prepping of the bike. You must demonstrate some ability. If it were a LP day alone, the advanced group would be the group where you find the racers. Does that help clarify it a bit?
Do you know what those standards are? Will the racers required to participate with the lp riders be made aware of the the lp riders' standards?
I don't think it makes any difference what standards are used in determing whether a track day rider is advanced, intermediate, or beginner. This is a race weekend and it should be for racers! If there's that much free time during a raceweekend that CCS can squeeze in a trackday... then why not let us have that time? This whole idea is a crock of dog doo doo.. makes no sense.
AMEN 8)
QuoteI don't think it makes any difference what standards are used in determing whether a track day rider is advanced, intermediate, or beginner. This is a race weekend and it should be for racers! If there's that much free time during a raceweekend that CCS can squeeze in a trackday... then why not let us have that time? This whole idea is a crock of dog doo doo.. makes no sense.
It's about time you took a stand on something!
Ladies and gentlrmen, the Rev has spoken, PAY ATTENTION!!
Matt
Another Play at filling the great piggy-bank at the expence of the dedecated vets.
It is'nt about having a safe/quality race program >:( >:( >:( any more my fellow members, its how they can knock us off and give our numbers to a unsuspecting novice. ???