Back in the 90's, it was determined that Heartland Park at Topeka was not raceable for motorcycles.
Mostly because of the ARMCO.
Does anyone actually know first hand that they have made sufficient changes to the layout so we can feel good about going fast there?
Bruce Lind
44th season on the pavement
i felt ok going fast there last year. The problem for me was, In the places where you should crash/most likely to crash it is somewhat safe, however everywhere else it is stupid dangerous. When i was there with ccs/asra last year, two guys got hurt bad, if im not mistake they were both kind of weird crashes, the type where the accident is a freak accurance, and norammly you would just slide off into the grass, however these guys slid off into very dangerous situations. So whn a something freak happens, like a locked rear wheel or a collision on the track you are put in a very dangerous spot considering basically the entire track is lined with concrete.
Hey, Bruce...
AMA stopped racing there because of the promoter. They wanted to cancel the whole 1991 event three weeks before the race.
Last corner is a lot different now. Old T1/T2 is very different. Where 1/4ley fell over trying to catch Renfrow has all been moved around.
Jeff Wood liked the track.
1 of the guys at HPT last year hit the wall in a freak location. The other was a high-side which had nothing to do with the walls...
The track is awesome, no doubt about that, but the walls still up the ante a bit...
The start is like launching 30+ bikes through a concrete funnel... Pretty scary. Then again, what track DOESN'T have some scary spots?
Brad Neff (sp) hit something... I dont know the details but from here say it sounds kinda like if you where to blow T6 at GIR and hit the wall there... not likely but possible. I do NOT have all the info first hand, someone else can chime in on that one
Jason Thorson got tangled with his bike in a highside...had nothing to do with the track safety/armco/walls/lack of air fence... where he crashed would be comparable to T4 at MAM
I felt safe there... just like most tracks there are places you dont want to crash (not that anyone WANTS to crash) Air fence seemed to be in appropriate places, i dont recall seeing anywhere that SHOULD have had airfence that didnt
I had no idea I might have been doing a trackday on a 'dangerous track'. Didn't even consider it. Of course, what do I know?
Like others said, at the places where its 'normal' to crash its not too bad. But, have something go wrong (ie can't stop) and there are a number of places that would be VERY bad to run off at.
Yeah, its safer than before, but I think they can go a LONG LONG LONG ways to being safer. There is absolutely no reason that they need to ring the track in wall like it is now.
It's one of my favorite tracks. I'm going through all the corners and don't remember seeing too much concrete that you would be likely to hit. Since they repaved it the surface is really nice. I don't think it's anymore dangerous than any other track.
Heartland is one of my favorites. The track is not anymore dangerous then other tracks. Infact I just back from Fontana - and that place has more concrete and problem areas then just about any other track i've been to.
I really don't like T2 where is crosses the drag strip. Had a little bobble there and got closer to the wall than I would have liked to be. Other than that, I've crash tested two other spots on the track (T8 and T9) and I'd say that those spots are safe. I think there is no room to do something incredibly stupid, so unless you do those type of things on a regular basis you should be fine.
From what I've heard about Gateway, HPT is like a room with padded walls safe.
Yeah coming out of T2 the wall is pretty close there, not to mention crossing the dragstrip you can get tangled in a wall there pretty easily. I remember from the races last year that T1/2 was a mess most every start.
Also tipping into T5 the wall is pretty close there (thats where the one guy hit it and broke a million bones).
Those are the worst sections I feel, but I would be happy if there was NO armco left other than leading into the bridge section and the last couple corners going under the bridge, but at least those are fairly slow corners.
I just can't believe that they spent so much money and still have glaring safety issues. Don't get me wrong-the surface is killer and the garages are VERY nice to have, but none of that matters when your in the back of an ambulance..
speaking of jason, has anyone heard how he's doing?
Quote from: bigreid on January 16, 2007, 12:31:48 PM
From what I've heard about Gateway, HPT is like a room with padded walls safe.
I would say its similar to HPT in that there are places where you can get hurt, but arent likely to crash hard enough to get into trouble there.
T1 is somewhat hairy... losing a front there or getting bumped off track could hurt. I think SD crashed in T1 years ago.
Other than that the times you are close to walls are 2nd gear corners and are covered with airfence/haybails. (exit of 7 and exit of 9)
I would put GIR in the same level of safety as BFR... trade walls for tree's.
As for Jason I talked to him a month or so ago, give or take. seems to be doing well. Back to work, on blood thinners to keep the clotting controlled. Still a smart ass. His kid gave his shiny new titanium mesh forehead a dent with a head butt... definately his kid! :banghead:
What about Brad? Anyone have any updates on him?
only been to HPT once and that was to get my race license before they repaved it. i hated the bumps and cracks and the huge rumble strips on the aprns. outside of that i thought it was a great track. but then i was going balls out either. just trying to finish the day.
they had an air fence up along the wall on the last turn. that was the only place i thought looked a bit ugly. but after reading all of this i'm a bit scared to go back in a few months. :kicknuts:
As for Brad, I haven't talked to him lately, but he walked up to us at the Wegman auction and thanked us all... I was absolutely amazed that he was up & walking. I figured he was on the 2 year plan at least...
Quote from: Jeff on January 17, 2007, 09:52:02 AM
As for Brad, I haven't talked to him lately, but he walked up to us at the Wegman auction and thanked us all... I was absolutely amazed that he was up & walking. I figured he was on the 2 year plan at least...
That's good to hear. I live across the street from KU Med and went and saw him and Jason several times. He would'nt remember because he was still on a vent. Looked pretty bad. Again, really good to hear.
Quote from: Snacktime on January 17, 2007, 10:05:38 AM
That's good to hear. I live across the street from KU Med and went and saw him and Jason several times. He would'nt remember because he was still on a vent. Looked pretty bad. Again, really good to hear.
from a wreck at HPT???
damn
Great to hear about Brad! I know he was in VERY bad shape!
Jester-I don't know that anyone knows exactly what happened to Brad, but he somehow ran straight off in 5 and hit the wall there. I don't believe there was any air fence at all.
Quote from: Court Jester on January 17, 2007, 11:03:10 AM
from a wreck at HPT???
damn
dude... he took a BEATING...
Still unsure what happened, but he hit the wall and perhaps the bike hit him, who knows, but he busted basically everything on one side of his body, plus a head injury... He's done racing...
damn, sounds ROUGH... really sorry to hear that.
at least he's still alive.
Brad is doing OK. He has healed pretty well, but is not up to full speed yet. All of the breaks in his pelvis have made it sort of like one leg is a little longer than the other. He also can't raise one arm above his shoulder. This severely limits him in his work (building houses) but he is going to have another surgery next month.
Brad did not go straight off in T5. He actually went off coming out of T5. Nobody saw what caused him to do this. Unfortunately, there was only airfence on the wall to protect a rider if you crashed going into the corner before you turned in. There was no protection mid corner on. The HPT director was very nice when I talked to him about Brad's crash and wanted to understand the physics of the crash so that they could protect better in the future. Hopefully that will occur.
When I went out to the crash sight, I found that the wall was 45 ft off the track and was brand new. This really surprised me since there was 100 yards of open field behind it. It appeared that Brad left the track on the bike and then bailed as he headed toward the wall. (based on the skid paths in the grass and impact marks on the wall) Since he was traveling at an angle toward the wall, he actaully traveled 90 ft from the track to the wall. The extra distance helps, but when you consider that you travel almost 90 ft in 1 second at 60 mph, he did not have much time.
Racing is a dangerous sport and everybody must make there own decisions on the risk. Very fun track, but too many walls for me. Especially when your friend dies in T5. I'm just thankful that the medical team brought him back.
I am sure that he will come to some of the races to be my pit bitch. He really enjoyed spending time with the CCS family during his short career.
well i don't know him at all. but best wishes to him non-the-less
Concerning how HPT spent money on track improvements.....
With SCCA HQ being about a 1/2 mile from the track and the desire to host SCCA Championships at the track, it's pretty safe to say that the primary concern in placement of new walls/rumble strips was geared towards what was best for sports cars.(read that as motorcycle needs being #2)
When we set up the Track for the CCS/ASRA races last June we used 17 sections of airfence. That covered the most obvious walls that needed protection. Many (most?) riders I talked with had no idea that there was much airfence in place as it tended to blend into the white concrete walls.
Regarding the new wall at turn #5.... I would have to agree that it was totally unneccessary for bike racing. I haven't attended a car race since the new track work has been completed so I can't comment on the benefit of the wall for sports car racing.
Rick
I gotta ask-why would cars want walls?? Wouldn't they rather spin off into a field rather than have a big crunch??
Yeah, but SCCA mandates them for specific reasons that cannot be known because of liability.
Airfence is another issue all on its own. It's usable for direct less that direct impacts. If you glance Airfence on an upright bike, you will get countersteered into the wall. Airfence does have limitations of its placement because of those kinds of things.
I always thought that there had been walls at turn five away from the track in the past. As a second gear corner that you have to continually slow from speed to make because it's still turning back on itself, and the drop of elevation at the exit, you've got to slow it down before you can drive down the hill. Tangents from a those radii should point one well down the track.
I agree-you SHOULDN'T be able to hit the wall there, but its obviously quite possible.
I would love to know why SCCA would want them.. I would think they could move the wall back 75 yards to make it safer for us and still have a wall for SCCA..
the only reason I could think is to prevent a car from blowing thru it and then reentering the track on the other side (if the track turns back on itself). At that particular turn I see no reason why it can't be moved back like Nick said. Makes no sense to me.
If I remember correctly (I could be wrong) there was also a wall at turn 4 that seemed a little too close for me.
Why can't we just talk to the track owner and get their reasoning? You seem to have their ear Dave, why not ask them?
Quote from: Super Dave on January 19, 2007, 02:40:00 PM
I always thought that there had been walls at turn five away from the track in the past. As a second gear corner that you have to continually slow from speed to make because it's still turning back on itself, and the drop of elevation at the exit, you've got to slow it down before you can drive down the hill. Tangents from a those radii should point one well down the track.
If you lose it trying to accelerate out that's one thing, but what about when you're just starting to lean it in and someone tries to make the pass inside and sends you both off pretty much perpendicular to the race line?
If two guys are arriving at the inside, they are slowing and they are generally a long way from the outside edge of the track. You still have solid surface to brake on.
One can come up with a limitless number of scenarios. Even then, unique dynamics of individual accidents can't completely be accounted for. That would pretty much leave riders riding at 20MPH with pillows, etc.
Airfence placement was CCS's job as it was their Airfence is my understanding there.
Best map I could find of HPT - too bad it doesn't show all the walls.....
Seems like there would be plenty of run off room from Turn #5 (before you'd need to worry about reentering the track) without the wall.
I know Carson from Road America was involved in planning the reconfiguration of the front straight a couple of years ago. Wonder if he was also involved in the latest improvements?
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhpt.com%2F%2Fstore%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2Fhpt_facilities_2006.jpg&hash=4ced69fedd5ecd5f563994224208c99a9eac8995)
Quote from: Super Dave on January 19, 2007, 02:40:00 PM
I always thought that there had been walls at turn five away from the track in the past.
Dave,
I can tell you for sure that the wall at #5 was new last year. Completely different profile than the original walls. It was a pain to find anything on the wall to tie airfence to. I guess it's possible that there a wall there before - don't know why they would have torn it down to put up a new wall though.
Quote from: Thingy on January 17, 2007, 07:34:59 PM
...snip...He actually went off coming out of T5. Unfortunately, there was only airfence on the wall to protect a rider if you crashed going into the corner before you turned in. There was no protection mid corner on...
...It appeared that Brad left the track on the bike and then bailed as he headed toward the wall...Since he was traveling at an angle toward the wall, he actaully traveled 90 ft from the track to the wall. The extra distance helps, but when you consider that you travel almost 90 ft in 1 second at 60 mph, he did not have much time...
That's worth a reread. The science involved there cost me dearly last summer at Autobahn. There was only a split second to make a decision, but I made the wrong one. :banghead: My mistake.
And like Dave said,
Quote from: Super Dave on January 19, 2007, 03:37:16 PM
One can come up with a limitless number of scenarios. Even then, unique dynamics of individual accidents can't completely be accounted for. That would pretty much leave riders riding at 20MPH with pillows, etc.
So I suppose "To bail or not to bail" is the question. Personally, I'll be more flexible in the way I think about that depending on which track I'm at in the future and which turn I'm in.
Quote from: Super Dave on January 19, 2007, 03:37:16 PM
One can come up with a limitless number of scenarios. Even then, unique dynamics of individual accidents can't completely be accounted for. That would pretty much leave riders riding at 20MPH with pillows, etc.
I agree about the limitless scenarios... however, if moving that wall (which I've yet to hear a valid reason for it's being there) only takes one choice to save the limitless ones, then why not simply move the freaking wall?
You sound like a dude that determines if the part that they know will fail one in a million times costs more to replace on the aircraft fleet, or take the risk of a couple hundred lives in a crash cause it costs less in the long run to settle with the families. In this case it's even simpler (assuming there is not a valid reason for the wall to be there).
Quote from: r1owner on January 20, 2007, 05:48:20 PM
You sound like a dude that determines if the part that they know will fail one in a million times costs more to replace on the aircraft fleet, or take the risk of a couple hundred lives in a crash cause it costs less in the long run to settle with the families.
No. Dave just likes to argue until you give up. LOL... xoxoxo
Quote from: Jeff on January 20, 2007, 06:02:11 PM
No. Dave just likes to argue until you give up. LOL... xoxoxo
Yep.....
:biggrin:
Actually, there may be an answer.
However...
The litigous nature of the US has left racing and race tracks with issues.
First, the "nature" of competition and track days has some assumption of risk.
Second, all scenarios cannot be accounted for. That's a problem in civil court all on its own. It's not about "reasonalbe doubt" as in criminal issues, but "doubt" is what needs to be proven in civil issues.
As a result, specific parameters of safety cannot be published in the United States. The SCCA, as an example, has individuals that have knowledge of what the parameters are and what the future requirements will be for a track to be certified.
Example: a track is certified. Over time, there are decisions made regarding safety by someone like the SCCA. The track is given notice of what changes need to be made in addition to a time table. Making the changes might have a monetary cost. A track might not have the funds immedately available.
Yes, during that time, incidents might occur. These changes may or may not impact how the incident plays out.
The availability of this information outside of the organization and the track can leave both exposed to civil suits.
So, why are there those walls at HPT? Well, they cost money, so, there is a reason. We are not in the know for that knowledge as per above.
I've raced plenty of places that had some feeling of exposure to something. And then I've seen people crash in the strangest places and hit things that were seemingly far enough away.
LRRS races inside the little bull ring that they do. It's smaller than Blackhawk, and there's stuff everywhere. And they usually have bigger grids. Daytona has always been pointed at as unsafe, but I don't believe that CCS records whould show that it has been the prime location for higher injury rates. I remember this being stated four of five years ago.
Speaking of HPT-anyone have a schedule yet?? I want to register but it sure would be nice to see when the races are first..
Nick, its on page 4 of the December mailer, if you don't have the newsletter, email me your fax number and I'll send the schedule to you.
http://www.ccsracing.com/forms/2007/entry/07%20Daytona%20Mailer.pdf
:thumb:
Thanks! You would think it would be linked on the HPT race page...
Is there a reason that MW SS is listed on both Saturday and Sunday, but MWSB is only listed on Saturday?
Also, the preregistration fees for that 2-day weekend; I am wanting to sign up for MWSB, MWSS and MWGP. Is it $75 for the first race, $55 for the 2nd and $40 for the 3rd, then $40 for each race on Sunday.... or does the pricing start over for Sunday's races?
Look at friday...
Quote from: Grashopr on January 25, 2007, 06:13:32 PM
$40 for each race on Sunday.... or does the pricing start over for Sunday's races?
it doesnt start over...@ least it better not!!
Quote from: Spooner on January 25, 2007, 07:18:32 PM
Look at friday...
Thank you for pointing that out. I'm a dumbass once again.
Quote from: robsob on January 25, 2007, 07:18:32 PM
it doesnt start over...@ least it better not!!
Okay, so then to enter the 3 classes for a 2 (three??)-day event.... it's $75+ $50 + $160? (4x$40)... right?
Haha, don't fret-I had to have Super Dave point that out to me today too lol!
Quote from: funsizeracing on January 16, 2007, 12:06:33 PM
It's one of my favorite tracks. I'm going through all the corners and don't remember seeing too much concrete that you would be likely to hit. Since they repaved it the surface is really nice. I don't think it's anymore dangerous than any other track.
You can barely see over the windscreen.
Ian
Quote from: Grashopr on January 25, 2007, 07:47:39 PM
Okay, so then to enter the 3 classes for a 2 (three??)-day event.... it's $75+ $50 + $160? (4x$40)... right?
now that you mention it, im confused too! i payed the road america/barber fees on my entry but the mailer doesnt say hpt is $80/$50/$50/$50? i better call on that...???
Twin Sprints Example (6 races in 3 classes on 2 days)
Pre-Entry 1st Class, Both Days: $80 + $50 = $130
Pre-Entry 2nd Class, Both Days: $50 + $50 = $100
Pre-Entry 3rd Class, Both Days: $50 + $50 = $100
Total: $330 (saves you $35)
Rodney is correct on the fees
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on January 26, 2007, 10:11:29 AM
Rodney is correct on the fees
Awesome.... but that's for Twin Sprints right? According to the .pdf;
Quote from: .PDF File on January 26, 2007, 10:11:29 AMNew pre-entry fees are $75/$50/$40 for
CCS Sprints while post-entry fees will now
be $80/$55. Unlimited GP pre-entry will be
$75 and post entry will be $80
So, to enter MWSS, MWSB and ULSS Pre-Entry... it would be $75 + $50 + $160 (4x$40), or $285. Right? Hate to keep harping on this stuff, but the way things are setup, it's about as clear as mud.
for a non twin sprint event, yes for hpt...no- 80/50/50/50
How am I mis-reading that?? I STILL dont understand where you're getting $80 for the first and $50 for each after it. I'm a little Lexdic'sic, but I dont understand. Am I looking at the wrong part of the .pdf file that shows
QuoteNew pre-entry fees are $75/$50/$40 for
CCS Sprints while post-entry fees will now
be $80/$55. Unlimited GP pre-entry will be
$75 and post entry will be $80
????
Quote from: RCR_531 on January 26, 2007, 04:43:10 AM
Twin Sprints Example (6 races in 3 classes on 2 days)
Pre-Entry 1st Class, Both Days: $80 + $50 = $130
Pre-Entry 2nd Class, Both Days: $50 + $50 = $100
Pre-Entry 3rd Class, Both Days: $50 + $50 = $100
Total: $330 (saves you $35)
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on January 26, 2007, 10:11:29 AM
Rodney is correct on the fees
hpt IS a twin sprint event thus the twin sprint fee schedule
Gotcha. I attempted to call CCS today but they dont answer on Fridays. I'll try to get ahold of them on Monday to clear this up. Page 7 has the Twin Sprint listings, and HPT isn't noted.
Quote3. Fees: Daytona Pre-Entry fees are $130.00 for the first class entered,
$90.00 for each additional class entered.
Road America and Barber Twin Sprint fees are $80 for the first entry, then
$50 for each additional. (Post entry is $5 per class higher.)
Standard CCS trophy class pre-entry fees are $75 for the first class, $50 for
the second class and $40 for each additional. Pre-entry for Unlimited GP is
$75. (Post entry is $80 for the first class and $55 for each
additional.Unlimited GP post-entry is $80.)
All ASRA Pro classes are $100.00 pre-entry.
I just talked to Ryan from CCS. He said you guys are 100% correct. HPT is considered the same as R.A. even though it's not listed on the mailer. Possibly HPT wasn't a known Twin Sprint location at the time of distribution? Anyways.. thank you guys for trying to help me out even if I didn't believe you. I wont make that mistake again.
Someone please clarify the layout for the first section of HPT, as the last time I rode it was 2004, and I've ridden two configurations. I'm guessing, because an earlier post mentions crossing the dragstrip, that turn one is now a tight right-hander, as opposed to an extremely bumpy high-speed left-hander?
Yeah, you turn right into a second gear corner after turn alpha, which has been changed also from the 2004/2005 configurations.
HPT Grand Prix Course... (http://hpt.com//store/catalog/road_configs.php)
Assuming we run the GP circuit again... Turn "Alpha" is the highspeed turn right at start finish that you used to "jump"... its been shaved down and feels faster, still exciting though... then yes T1 is a 90deg right hander that crosses the drag strip.
not many bumps on the track since the resurface...
edit... SD type faster than TS
In 06 turn one was a right(bus stop) They were undecided as to which configuration to run right up til the races the way I remember. The whole thing was repaved so I guess they could go either way for 07. Anyone know for sure?
HPT has always wanted the full course. Every track day at HPT used the full course, except for one that couldn't because the NHRA barriers were still up immediately after the drag racing event and couldn't be removed in time. I'd assume the full GP course.
Quote from: robsob on January 26, 2007, 03:44:06 PM
hpt IS a twin sprint event thus the twin sprint fee schedule
Rob, a guy as fast as you doesn't need to pre enter anyhow. If I were you I'd just wait till the last minute to do it....
sorry snack... this seasons entries are in!!! :biggrin: