How big should a region be? Most of us have full time jobs, but if you want to chase a regional championship and hit all rounds requires an excessive amount of travelling at least in the Mid-Atlantic region. I just always think it is ridiculous to have Daytona in the Mid-Atlantic region let alone Barber and Roebling. If CCS thinks that is how they get more revenue, I don't believe it as it just discourages all but the few with deep pockets and flexible work schedules to chase the regional championship. From the most northern track ,Summit Point to Daytona, the most southern track in the region it is 875 miles. I don't think any of the other regions are anywhere near as large :preachon:
:preachon: Right on brotha!!! Preach on! It's racing man. Our first MW weekend is in Topeka, about a 20 hr round trip drive for me. The guys that live further north will drive more. I don't know what to say, but I hear your complaint. BTW-congrats on your #3 OA for '06.
Here's 2 ways to put a smiley face on it :biggrin: Mert Lawell (sp?) did not become the racer he was by just hanging out and racing in SW/California, AND it looks like gas prices are coming down. :err:
:cheers:
In 2003 when when we did the full season, Topeka was on the MW schedule about a 1460 miles round trip for us, only Stumpy who lives up in the UP would have been farther. We didn't even consider going to Daytona for the Race of Champions due to distance and we simply couldn't afford it. I understand what your saying, but what is the solution?
Dawn
I logged 4770 miles in 2006 for race travel. Considering 9mpg and diesel was about $2.85/gal, that's about $1500 in fuel alone.
You only go to Daytona once, and considering almost everything else is at Summit, your region should be pretty reasonable.
Take where you live and calculate the season's miles. I'm pretty close to most of our tracks, but still ended up logging 4700+ miles... I looked at it as our weekly vacation (my wife & kids disagreed.. LOL)
CCS developed track championships in some regions to give opportunities for those that felt they wanted to stay closer to home.
Even most AMA guys have full time jobs.
Road America to Barber...there have been times where they were in the same regional series...810+ miles.
Road America to Motorsports Park Hastings - about 700.
Road America to Heartland Park Topeka - around 700.
Regions are, well, regions.
I think the track championships are the only opportunity for localized affirmitive action.
I was always kind of angry when I race the AMA because everyone was close to a couple of events except for me. I was centrally located in the US. But I was equi-distant from every place. Basically, I could get to Infineon (Sears), Pheonix, Loudon, and Daytona in 24 hours. Others a little further or closer.
Quote from: EX#996 on January 06, 2007, 10:07:51 AM
I understand what your saying, but what is the solution?
Dawn
I know in a lot of mx and off-road series they allow you to drop your worst one or two finishes. The Mid-Atlantic region is the only one that has 12 rounds other than Florida. And 2 of the rounds that are effectively out of the region are double points. 1650 miles round trip to Daytona and over 1500 miles round trip to Barber for me. And it is not like I live on the fringe of the region, I am near the center of the region. If I lived only 200-300 miles or so farther south I would be in the Southeast area. The Mid-Atlantic region is closer to most MidWest tracks than Daytona. I did a little comparison of regions while I was slow at work yesterday with my map program.
Mid-Atlanitic 12 rounds farthest tracks from each other 875 miles,
Florida region 12 rounds 400 miles apart,
Great Plains 9 rounds 700 miles apart,
MidWest region 9 rounds 700 miles apart,
Southeast 8 rounds, 600 miles apart.
As you can see the MidAtlantic region is by far the worst. I could chase a national series and not do much more travelling. just want to do a regional series.
The AMA is a Professional National series, not the same.
National series? Yeah, five events are in your region, ASRA. MW/GP gets two. Similar problem, different twist.
Quote from: ahastings on January 06, 2007, 10:55:01 AM
The AMA is a Professional National series, not the same.
No, but a similar problem. Who can afford more events?
If you're from Ohio, you're going to have to race in California four times.
Racing will always have travel problems unless one decides to only hit select events. If the regional championship is a priority, then sacrifices are usually made.
I think racing generally has a good deal of sacrifice. Yeah, I'd love to have a series between two tracks. But most people don't. And you won't get riders from an extended are from outside that area to show up either.
Regardless, it's a give and take.
Arnie, what would you like to have happen? Just no Daytona on your regional schedule?
With insurance cost at Datyona exceeding $40k, I'm sure that it has been made a larger regional event because of the need to increase entries and potentially for the desire that other riders may have.
What do you think?
I would be happy if Daytona was taken out of MidAtlantic region. I propose it every year. It is as much in MidAtlantic as it is in MidWest. Maybe it should be added to the MidWest region too since they only have 9 rounds and it wouldnt be much farther for half the people in that region. Since it is obviously just all about getting more people to Daytona and not really about what region it is in, why not make it double points for all regions. That is what I think.
CCS needs to make a profit. Enticing racers to attend more events farther from home helps CCS remain afloat. The track rent and event costs are fixed, no matter how many or few riders show up. If the event undersells, CCS eats the loss. If CCS can't make a profit, they go under. Then what?
Hey, I had the same bitch when I was chasing championships. Now that I help run trackdays, I can understand the other side of the equation. For example, Gingerman is cheap to rent. But everyone west of Lake Michigan hates to go there because all that water gets in the way of the commute. So a potentially lucrative event draws few entries, and CCS takes a hit. Now they don't race at Gingerman any more. The customer base dictated that change with their spending habbits, and I can assure you that CCS was greatly disappointed by the lack of entries at that venue.
Cheap tracks or expensive tracks, CCS tries to keep the entry fees close to the same. Double points and twin sprint weekends are attempts to make book. The well-attended events must make up for the under-attended ones, and the tracks with cheap rents must generate extra profit to offset the tracks with high rents. Think about it from an economic point of view. Club hobby racers don't make a profit from competing, but the series must at least break even to stay in business. CCS is a series for hobby racers, but CCS itself is not a hobby.
Of course everyone will show up at Road America no matter where they live. But it costs a bazillion dollars to rent the place, so CCS walks out with about $11.50 in profit when all is said and done. Then everyone screams about how greedy CCS is for charging extra to race there! Other premire tracks like Barber and Daytona present the same set of problems. Ever wonder why we don't race Mid Ohio?
Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone else of complaining about travel and entry expenses. But there are aspects to this business that we racers don't appreciate. Just be glad you have a racing series to compete in right now, and think occasionally about what you as a customer might do to help keep the series afloat.
:spank: my own ass, because I was totally on the opposite side of this debate just a few years ago....
I put so many miles on the RV we were getting oil changes every other week it seamed like. You really have to love to travel which we do. That was a 1/16 of the fun(Traveling) I always thought instead of Daytona, Road America or Barber would have been better.
I understand CCS needs to make a profit. By that reasoning Daytona should be points for every region, what is the difference? How many more racers are going to travel over 800 miles to a race that they have to pay twice as much to race at and twice as much to stay in the area for extra points. I hope not many, because I won't do it. I can do 6 extra regionals by skipping Daytona and Barber. Therefore someone like myself is less likely to chase the series and CCS loses even more, sometimes I think they need to look at the big picture.
My point is still Daytona is not even close to the Mid-Atlantic region. Don't call it something it is not.They want to have a region that encompases the entire east coast, then call it the Eastern US region. Like I said I don't even live in the MidWest region, I live in Maryland on the east coast and Daytona is farther than every single MidWest track except Topeka and MidAmerica. WERA runs a MidAtlantic region also and they don't have the need to include Southeastern tracks in the region. I like the CCS class structure a little better and the fact they award overall expert #s for regions, but the WERA regions make much more sense travel wise.
A similar case was made about Barber not being either Midwest or Great Plains. Gingerman was on the Great Plains schedule at one time.
You're really going to have to ask Kevin. Or talk to the MA racers themselves. You're the only one from the MA in this thread.
As for cost of entries, distance traveled, etc.
There is precedent where big events at big tracks with big rentals bring, generally, more entries. Barber, Road America, and Daytona are excellent examples. AHRMA was built on that, and, when they moved away from that, their membership and entries declined. They used to race at Road America. They don't anymore. They used to race at Road Atlanta, and they don't anymore.
I can feel for you.
Not every racer lives 800 miles from the furthest track too. Some live close to the futhest track and have to travel 600 miles six times a year. It isn't "fair" for them either. What is equitable?
When I lived in Omaha, Blackhawk Farms was 440 miles away one way. We'd go there a couple/few times a year amidst other tracks. We didn't follow a series, really. We just hit the tracks that we thought were cool.
When Roger Edmonson took a gamble on Heartland Park Topeka in 1993, he put four or five races there, I can't remember how many. The region was made up of Heartland Park Topeka and Talladega Grand Prix Course. Well, Tally was a thousand miles from my house. Made Tally about 800+ miles from Heartland Park. We had two races at Talladega, which were combined with another region.
Quote from: Jeff on January 06, 2007, 10:28:54 AM
I logged 4770 miles in 2006 for race travel.
Lightweight try 10k plus, :whine: :biggrin:
1993 - 33k :whine:
Tires still cost more.
Quote from: BlueRidgePerformance on January 07, 2007, 10:15:35 AM
Lightweight try 10k plus, :whine: :biggrin:
hehe... oh yeah, I by no means claimed to be high on mileage. I figured I was pretty average for running a full region. Anything national will be +10k.
Still wondering how many miles we'll put on for the fund this year. My guess is 'a bunch'... :-)
And you'll be doing it without the Pimp Van! :biggrin: :thumb:
Quote from: BlueRidgePerformance on January 07, 2007, 10:15:35 AM
Lightweight try 10k plus, :whine: :biggrin:
10K blah. When I ran cars we raced everywhere from Laguna to Sear Pt (infineon now) to Riverside (home track), Firebird, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Daytona, Mid-O, Long Beach and Road America. :biggrin:
I raced the full Mid-Atlantic schedule in 2005. 7700 miles not counting the 5 rounds at Summit Pt which are only 80-mile round trips for me. Only a few racers live closer to Summit than me.
Then I finished off the season with another 1600 miles for the ROC at Daytona.
Too much driving. That new track under contstruction in New Jersey would be a good change to the schedule. Even closer than VIR!
I think that's what was said about Autobahn Country Club. It was close to the Chicago Market, and it should have drawn some racers even from Michigan.
Might not be everything everyone wants.
One can hope.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on January 07, 2007, 01:12:52 PM
And you'll be doing it without the Pimp Van! :biggrin: :thumb:
But I'll be doing it in the full comforts of the mobile mortgage :biggrin:
Zee Pimp Van ess officially unstickerized! The process took a mere 8-10 hours....
All of us GP region guys had been complaining for a while until Dean from Trackaddix came in and saved us! Now the furthest I drive is 4 hours! (except for RA). I never did the full series until this year and the travel is a huge part of it. Luckily we have a pretty natural series here because of so many tracks in relative proximity to Kansas City-I really feel for a lot of you guys-but I do wish we still had Barber on the schedule-that was one drive I didn't mind too bad lol!
I also think that Daytona should not be on the Mid Atlantic nor should Barber. Roebling perhaps, its not too too bad. Daytona should be kept as the final Race of Champions. There is a great way to add a track for the Mid Atlantic that is fairly close. Beaver Run. And I dont want to hear that stuff about the DB limit. I have been racing there since 2004 and I think did track day in 2003 there. Much louder cars drive there and the vintage noise makers race there and there has never been a DB issue. Adding 2 rounds a season at the beaver would be great. Its a fun track, easy to get to with lodging very close by. It is approximately 290 miles from my house. I added it up and I am skipping daytona for the first event. I just cant justify dropping $1300 + for the first event. I'll just have to try and make up the difference at other tracks. I think Mid Atlantic should be limited to Kershaw, but absolutley no further than Roebling which is 660 miles away. I hope the jersey motorsports park happens. Thats only a short 70 miles from the house.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on January 07, 2007, 02:14:55 PM
10K blah. When I ran cars we raced everywhere from Laguna to Sear Pt (infineon now) to Riverside (home track), Firebird, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Daytona, Mid-O, Long Beach and Road America. :biggrin:
Thank God, I don't have to do that. Mine is a 03 E350, that I bought in September of 2003. Just turned 120K
Quote from: BlueRidgePerformance on January 08, 2007, 09:17:14 AM
Thank God, I don't have to do that. Mine is a 03 E350, that I bought in September of 2003. Just turned 120K
But you run a National series, not a so-called regional.
Quote from: ahastings on January 06, 2007, 01:19:20 AM
How big should a region be? Most of us have full time jobs, but if you want to chase a regional championship and hit all rounds requires an excessive amount of travelling at least in the Mid-Atlantic region.
I would argue that ALL of us have full time jobs. Except the youngsters, but they rely on their parents for cash and transport, and they surely have jobs.
If you want to win a championship, you need to do what other champions do. Which means a lot of travel and debt. Making the series easier would devalue the championship. I used to cry about the commitment too, this year I'm going for it. I'll know in september how it worked out. :biggrin:
I travel 1400 miles round trip to HPT, 1200 to Mid America, and 1000 to Gateway. Some have it worse, Ben Thompson is from Alaska! (although he seems to be funded well)
Dave is right, most AMA racers work real jobs too. The question is how bad do you want it? (pretty bad considering you have a #3 plate already :biggrin:)
The difference is the AMA is a national level, which means you will have rounds all over the country. The ASRA and WERA National are National levels, therefor you travel more and go around the country a bit more. Contingency payout is higher in Nationals, guess there is some reason for that. Regionals are just that, REGIONAL and are supposed to be broken down into regions. Barber and Daytona are not Mid Atlantic, not even close. And to get the top 10 plates you dont have to drive all over hells half acre either.
I think that this is one of the reasons most of us new experts quit racing as much. Don't drop Daytona just don't make it a double points mid-atlantic race, keep it SE and FL. Also 12 races in one regional championship is too much! Ten races is more manageable and just might draw more of us to try and attend all of the regionals.
Quote from: JBraun on January 08, 2007, 11:08:40 AM
I would argue that ALL of us have full time jobs. Except the youngsters, but they rely on their parents for cash and transport, and they surely have jobs.
If you want to win a championship, you need to do what other champions do. Which means a lot of travel and debt. Making the series easier would devalue the championship. I used to cry about the commitment too, this year I'm going for it. I'll know in september how it worked out. :biggrin:
I travel 1400 miles round trip to HPT, 1200 to Mid America, and 1000 to Gateway. Some have it worse, Ben Thompson is from Alaska! (although he seems to be funded well)
Dave is right, most AMA racers work real jobs too. The question is how bad do you want it? (pretty bad considering you have a #3 plate already :biggrin:)
I got the #3 plate just running 2 tracks Summit and VIR. It would have cost twice as much to try and do any better. It's not about how bad do I want it, I am already broke doing as much as I can.
And you got # 3 by being consistent and being 1-2 or 3 each race
Quote from: ahastings on January 08, 2007, 09:44:36 AM
But you run a National series, not a so-called regional.
I know, I used to run the NC Regionals. Had the same issues as you're talking about.
:wah: I too wish that Daytona was not on the Mid-Atlantic schedule. If CCS must have an multiple region race why does it have to be at the most southern corner of the U.S. Why race at Daytona where the costs to race there towers over any of the other tracks let alone the travel expense. Why race at Daytona at all. Why not move it to RA or Barber or even V.I.R. The two largest problems everyone has with Racing Daytona is Track/Race Fees and travel. Would CCS not make more $$$ by removing Daytona completely and setting up the season opener at a more cost effective track which would be more benefical to everyone? As in any case if the cost comes down the demand goes up.
Dont get me wrong, I love :kissy: racing in CCS and I think the officials do a great job at tackling all the tasks required to run a smooth weekend. Much more smoothness then what the AMA seen in 2006. All and all the Daytona gig is really about my only gripe with CCS. The complaints others have on other CCS issues, I can better see CCS's reasoning. But going to Daytona for a Mid-Atlantic race is a real :kicknuts:
I'm not complaining at all, it is what it is. I did the full MA series last year and managed to make it to all the races and traveled a good 15,000 miles to do it. I racked up a lot of debt in the process, time off work, racing expenses, travel, fuel, etc took it's toll. This year I'm not in financial shape to do the same thing again. I'm just going to do a handful of races.
Now with that said, if lets say CCS changed the race schedule to only be at Summit, VIR and say CMP, the true Mid Atlantic races (CMP is borderline). And there were 8-10 races in the series, I would probably have a whole new perspective on what I can budget. I went to CMP, Roebling and Summit Shendandoah. The turn out was low to say the least. If some of the far races were dropped and the number of races was more race budget reasonable, I bet you would get a whole lot more racers going for the full series. If I can't make the four out of mid atlantic races, why run the full series. However, if the series was more managable, I would work really hard to make all the races.
Again, I'm not complaining just a different perspective. I think CCS is missing out on a lot of money by keeping some of the dates. I'd have to imagine they barely clear the track fees and by having some of those races they are discouraging many racers from busting their ass to come to every race. I know I would come to every race if there was a point and it was more affordable (aka less races). Shenendoah would be a good place to start, I've raced there all four times CCS has been there. There aren't any great passing zones there which causes more aggressive passing. The walls are too close, I know I've hit one before and I got lucky. I refuse to ever race there again, I don't feel it is a safe track.
Z
That was a good response Z. I definately agree about the Shanendoah as well. But, with all the controversy, CCS is still going there 2 x in 2007.
I love going to Daytona and Barber. I don't mind the travel at all. I've been lucky though in my profession in that it allows me the time off for travel. I can see how it can be a problem for some though. I don't think that there should be less races. Then there would be less oportunities to race. I would like to see more entrants at some tracks though. I think if we could get some of these people who just do track days to come out and race it would help. I try and tell them they don't know what they are missing. And no one ever said this sport was cheap.
You're rite, no one ever did say, racing is cheap. But CCS doesn't have to impose excessive expense by making a region the entire east coast. Keep Daytona as the final race of the season but not the first kick in the ass. And then lets follow that up with a drive to South Carolina, hey sounds like a great way to spend a wad of money the first two races. I'll see you all in may at Summit unfortunately Uncle Sam doesn't pay enough for me to drive all over America to race. Heck I've got a good idea, lets raise taxes so I can get paid more, therefore I can chase the MA schedule up and down the east coast. :cheers: :cheers: :thumb: see you all in May.
Quote from: eh427 on January 10, 2007, 10:11:15 PM
I love going to Daytona and Barber. I don't mind the travel at all. I've been lucky though in my profession in that it allows me the time off for travel. I can see how it can be a problem for some though. I don't think that there should be less races. Then there would be less oportunities to race. I would like to see more entrants at some tracks though. I think if we could get some of these people who just do track days to come out and race it would help. I try and tell them they don't know what they are missing. And no one ever said this sport was cheap.
I'm not saying they have to cut races but perhaps keep the mid atlantic races in the mid atlantic and not combine as many race dates. You don't have to have Daytona count towards the Mid Atlantic to go down there. I may do one far race this year and if I do it will be to Road America. Obviously it will not count towards MA points but I've always wanted to try that track.
My point is four far races, with two of them being double points is a double edged sword, not only is there a low turn out but by having these races, it discourages people from doing the remaining Mid Atlantic races, if your not going for a championship why kill yourself.
I agree with Z-man and Arnie on this. He makes it to far more races than me, for many people giving up 4-5 days 10 times a year is just not realistic.
Moreover, competiting for championships should not be limited to the jokers with cash and time to make it to all the rounds. I have the cash, but no time. Others have the time and no cash. Few have both. In the end, I race where convenient and don't worry about points or championships, but if I had a shot at racing most of the rounds, that perspective would change.
We did all the rounds in TC last year, but only b/c we had a team of 4 racers and shared the load in making weekends. the Mid-Atlantic has too many rounds. Not too many to race, but too many to compete in the championship hunt by attending all of them. I think the idea of counting your top xx rounds is a good one.
Quote from: xseal on January 23, 2007, 02:52:10 PM
I agree with Z-man and Arnie on this. He makes it to far more races than me, for many people giving up 4-5 days 10 times a year is just not realistic.
Moreover, competiting for championships should not be limited to the jokers with cash and time to make it to all the rounds. I have the cash, but no time. Others have the time and no cash. Few have both. In the end, I race where convenient and don't worry about points or championships, but if I had a shot at racing most of the rounds, that perspective would change.
We did all the rounds in TC last year, but only b/c we had a team of 4 racers and shared the load in making weekends. the Mid-Atlantic has too many rounds. Not too many to race, but too many to compete in the championship hunt by attending all of them. I think the idea of counting your top xx rounds is a good one.
I like your idea as well xseal. If there are 12 races in the Mid Atlantic, best 8 count. That way you make one or two far races and I would of course skip shenendoah and could still be in the running. If you go to the far events they are generally have less participants and the people who go would be rewarded by improving their 8 race weekends.