Motorcycle Racing Forum

What major area(s) are you working at in racing?
Where are the most amount of difficulty in achieving better lap times on the track for you? Braking, Exits, Cornering Speed, Passing, Starts, Phyical strength, endurance,Etc.?
Like what areas do you feel you need to work on. Or do you even know?

Just wondering what other peoples problems are.

I believe motorcycle racing is a fine art that needs to be understood through practice of trail & error. The more we understand about motorcycles & our minds the faster we can go. So if we all pool up some info about what we are working on or things that are hard to overcome we will be able to better understand how to go faster as result. You must know what is going on underneath you and what your options are on a motorcycle so that you can make it do what you want it to do.
Don't be afraid to ask questions about how stuff works on this thread. I would like to be able to answer many questions about racing & riding on here. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I would like to learn more everyday.
Lets raise the bar in racing CCS by talking these topics with each other.
What do you think Jeff?
What better way to get through the winter but by studying for next season?
Jason Farrell :thumb:

Well, when I started, that was the presentation...racing was the practice of trial and error.  Endurance racing was sold to us as the way to that "experience".  I liked endurance racing.  But the trial and error?  Well, what can you say...if it's ground that has been covered before, why should I feel so unique and selfish in my personal opportunities that I will actually learn through this trial and error? 

The cost, even at $30 for the first race, $20 for the second and $10 for each after with $180 tires was more expensive than I could afford so quickly.

My trial and error experience got me through to my first win, period, in 1990.  I started racing in 1987, turned expert in 1989, and did my first AMA event that year.  I won my first race as an expert at the old Gateway in A Superbike Expert.  I was second overall, with the overall win going to Tray Batey winning A Production Expert.  I was on a 750, he was on an 1100, but it didn't matter, he just plain won the race. 

My real learning came in 1991 when I was hooked to a "B Team" program that had an "A Team" with Dale Quarterley.  Just hanging with Dale and his guy Daytona Mike allowed me to recognize that volume was not necessarily relevant to success in the sport.  Knowledge was more important than I thought.  Dale was a guy that I could watch and see things that I wasn't doing.  And I could ask him questions that he could give me specific answers to, in addition to leading me toward the next answers and the next questions. 

Following that, it was racing vintage bikes and working with different students that allowed me to understand chassis more and allowe me to see how different people work.  There's a lot to be said for the different kinds of people there are.  Some are quick reacted, some aren't so much.  Each has value, and each has problems.  I can see how those things do and don't work with me also. 

My drive to "necessarily" win isn't there like I had years ago, but I know more now.  I don't have to be that guy anymore.  I did that.  I just love racing, and then working to develop riders if they have that desire to do something.

This could be another good topic :cheers:- i would like to classify turns or sections by the amount of time that can be gained in them- sort of just an ABC way to simply categorize them- i think that areas of great speed change qualify  as an A area- probably high speed sections fit there too .So i think those areas are where i will spend my little partime racer tracktime,once the bike is setup by those much more capable than me-(at 51 and just starting on track,i like to take a WMD to a fistfight! (just a saying o mine)- ::)I'll be watchin this thread all winter i hope! Thanks Jas,,Dave ---John in Victory Gardens NJ

The big problem, which I've said before, is that few people actually have the DETERMINATION to win a race...

Here's the last article I wrote on the topic:

Determination or Desire?

Many racers starting out (and some who have been doing it for quite a long time) wonder what it takes to be successful.  To win.  To be that guy on top of the box every race, every weekend.  To this, I say it's a pure matter of personal choice.  Do you have Determination for racing, or is it a Desire instead?  This is a very basic question, but one which is very overlooked and largely ignored.  I bring this question to you, the prospective racer.


de-ter-mi-na-tion [di-tur-muh-ney-shuhn]

–noun

1. the act of coming to a decision or of fixing or settling a purpose. 
2. the decision or settlement arrived at or pronounced. 
3. the quality of being resolute; firmness of purpose. 
4. a fixed purpose or intention
5. fixed direction or tendency toward some object or end.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

de-sire [di-zahyuhr]

–verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want. 
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request:

–noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment 
4. an expressed wish; request.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Competitive, successful racing plain and simply takes determination.  However, when you look at the level of determination necessary, you will find a determination beyond what most people can sustain for any length of time.

Determination as defined above by webster is, for all intents and purposes, actually MAKING SOMETHING HAPPEN. 

Desire on the other hand is much different.  It's a WANT, a WISH, a CRAVING.

Wanting something is absolutely different from MAKING IT HAPPEN.  When you hit the track and 'want' to run a 1:15, you'll find that it doesn't happen until you MAKE it happen.  Desire is you wanting that particular lap time; determination is you making that lap time a reality.

Racing has a large number of obstacles to overcome.  The racer who is determined and resolute in that determination, will overcome any obstacle in his or her way, and WILL succeed!  What kind of determination does it take?

The determination to live and breathe for winning that race. 
The determination to do whatever you have to in order to afford your needs.
The determination to train, improve, learn, and continue until you have the result you desire.
The determination to make the sacrafices you need to so that you can meet your goal. 
The determination to condition your body and mind into a machine capable of reaching your goals.

I see so many people with a half-assed desire to be competitive, yet they're pounding down a 6-pack of beer while shoveling chocolate cake into their mouth at the track.  They're the people who will spend thousands on building a motor, but won't exhibit the discipline necessary to condition themselves to be able to run a 30 minute race in 100 degree heat.  These are people who may do well from time to time, and probably have a great time doing it, but they lack the determiniation which the person standing on top of the box every weekend has.

Every personal victory I've had, whether it was winning a race, making a pass, beating a lap time, or saving a crash, I can look right back on and see that it was pure determination that brought me that result.  When you have that determination, events become TASKS, and have no function of pleasure, simply a task which must, no, WILL be completed.  When you enter the DESIRE mode, these racing events remain events and produce many different results such as pleasure, fear, pain, thrill.

Determined racing is not fun.  It's not comfortable.  It's not anything but achieving a goal, and at a later time, relishing in the satisfaction that you met that goal and conquered the obstacles of mind/body/finances/gravity/whatever.

So, you ask yourself if you are TRULY determined, and find out the answer is "no"; then what?  Should you give up racing?  NO! Not necessarily.  It all depends on your goal and what this means to you.  If you desire to race to go fast, and have fun, do just that!  There's nothing wrong with it.  I have run with hundreds if not thousands of people who are VERY happy with just being out on the track.  They have nothing to achieve or prove, they are simply there to have fun and fulfill their desire.  They also don't necessarily sit around mulling why they are not winning!  If you find yourself wondering why the hell you can't win a race, start considering whether it is more of a desire than a determination.

Can you flip from desire to determination and back?  Absolutely!  And you can do it 10 times a lap if that's what you choose!  Case in point, I was running a race weekend where a number of pro riders showed up.  My determination that day was broken as I knew they were much faster than I could be.  I desired to beat them, but I had no determination to do it because I felt the obstacle was too large.  Then all of a sudden it began to POUR rain.  My attitude flipped like a switch from a desire to beat these guys, to a determination that I would (not 'could', WOULD) win in the rain.  I knew I could do it, I had done it before.  I took to the track with a focus to win and nothing less.  So, did I win that race?  No.  Ultimately through a couple of bad choices in the race I came up 3rd in an extremely tight last lap of dicing.  However, before that rain set in, there was no way I would have believed I could have landed a 3rd with the riders who were there.

Another instance came when I was stuck at a 1:14.0 fastest lap for over a year at a certain track.  I came around that fateful day and read yet another 1:14.0 on my lap timer and I actually said to myself in my helmet "HELL NO!".  I put my head down and instantly ran 3 mid 1:13 laps.  It became a task to be completed, no longer something I simply "wanted".

If you think you have the determination it takes to win, you need to ask yourself the question of "will this benefit my racing?", every waking moment of the day.  Every time you pull into McDonald's, every time you piss away $6 at starbucks, every time you flop down on the couch with a pizza and a movie.  You need to think of what the guy who is beating you is doing at that very moment.  When your life revolves around winning, you will win.

So, the next time you contemplate where to invest in your racing, and why you're getting beat at the track, consider to yourself, "Do I have the determination to do this, or is this just something I want?".  If it's a determination, nothing will stand in your way.  If it's a desire, just kick back and enjoy your experience and have fun!

I think this all hinges on your goals as a rider. To the majority of people at this level this is a hobby. Win or lose they're out for the fun and commaraderie of the weekend.

To the few who are young enough and have the desire to try for a factory ride someday your commentary is great but, that is a small percentage of the riders out there.

I started racing at the ripe old age of 32. I had no dreams of doing anything but playing around having fun. So, I partied at the tracks and had a ball. Never trained and still managed to run near the front most weekends. Won a few and yes won endurance races riding on two teams in the same event. Rode 4 out of 6 hours a couple times and was completely out of shape physically. Never had a problem on the track though. Rain, heat, whatever came I rode through it and finished fairly well.

Yes the desire to win was there but so was the desire to have fun....... :biggrin: :biggrin: :cheers:

Sorry Jeff, but I have to disagree with some of what you are saying.  Determination is a great quality, and can help a person to be the best that they can at whatever they are determined to do. 

With racing however, there are so many intangibles, that determination alone will often not be enough.  Luck, natural ability, natural body type,  vision, comfort at speed, and many other things that we dont have control over come into play.  I have known people who are extremely determined to accomplish their goals, but they still come up short.  The sheer odds of winning in some of the classes are pretty small.  There is one winner, out of grids that are sometimes as large as 50 or more riders.  Does this mean that there was only one determined racer out there.

Conversly, I have also seen racers who are able to drink a six pack, eat some cake, and still wake up and win a race.  Training and preperation definatly help, and I am a definate advocate of a strong fitness training regimin, but there will always be the Anthony Goberts and Scott Russels out there, that just have something inside of them that the rest of us can never have.

I also have to disagree with your assesment that determination equals no fun.  Nicky Hayden has to be considered one of the most determined mc racers in the world, yet he often seems to be having fun at the races.  I can remember the GP at Mugello this year, he finished third, yet he looked like he just had the time of his life.  When you are determined, and you make progress, and have some good battles, it is fun.  That is after all, why we do this.  Even the top riders in the world do this because it is fun.  Look at Rossi.  He almost always looks like he is enjoying himself at the track.  By your definition, the only determined rider in moto gp is Danni Pedrosa.

All in all, determination is definatly important, but far from the only ingredient in making a succesful mc racer.

+1

And you're absolutely correct SteelCityRacer.  There are many intangibles which need to be factored in.

I guess I wrote that with a specific type of rider in mind.  The guy we all know, who walks around pissing and moaning that he can't win, and stuffs money into all the wrong places.  One with a bad frame of mind.  One who would do MUCH better if he/she simply had some determination to do such.

Rosno has no depth perception.  That didn't hold him back from becoming an accomplished racer.  It was something he simply had to overcome.

Yes, there is natural talent, etc.  Again, the post was not meant to be as 'all encompassing' as it came off.  It was just my brain oozing out through my fingers one day...

I'm not going to say that I disagree with you Jason - but.... When I used to race Motocross/Supercross - I had no guidance so I thought that for me to learn on my own I had no choice but trial and error...... I spent a lot of time in the hospital - lots of time.... When I started roadracing I had people helping me - people that had been in my position before(from CCS and Wera Endurance to AMA Pro) - but because I was bull headed and stuck in my ways I wanted to do things my way... I didn't think I could learn doing things someone Else's way..... Well I ended up getting hurt quit a bit again - "just this time I wasn't intentionally landing from 20 - 30 foot in the air"..... So I decided to start listening to everyone around me (yes even Super Dave) and what I found was that I could infact learn without throwing the bike down the road...

Now to kinda put things into perspective - I can't say for sure - and I know everyone is different - but..... I feel that you need to be able to find the limit of whatever it is that you are trying to work on with your riding - weather it be braking,cornering,body position, starts or even timing.... I know that everyone is going to find that limit differently - I felt I had to push myself and the bike past the limit before I knew where that limit was...Some people can "FEEL" that limit easier then others - without going past that point...... As Dave has told me in the past "peoples reaction speed can vary greatly" - We even did an actual test that measured our reaction speed.... I think that somones ability to learn is somewhat related to this - but without understanding first of all "That" things are happening - and secondly "why" things happen - you won't progress - regardless of how well the can react to or feel what is going on.....

Now for what Jeff said - I have always kinda had the same outlook.... I have always felt that people can tell everyone else how much they want it - or even tell them selves that they want to win more then the next person...But unless you are willing to 100% dedicate your life to wanting it then either you  are (A) Kidding yourself and wasting a lot of money in the process - (B) Just doing it to have fun and enjoy yourself - Or (C) You are just naturally talented and don't have to work at it as hard as the next person... But look at Nicky Hayden for example - The kid has tons of talent - But I bet you anything thing he worked his ass off this season - just like he has every year to get to this point.... Then we have Rossi - do you think he has to work as hard as Hayden??? HMMM - makes you think....

I personally think about everything I do - or eat - or drink - "Is this going to benefit me in my racing or is this going to hurt me? " People always give me a hard time and tell me I'm to serious about racing - well they haven't devoted the last 10 years of their life to something that they want as bad as I do.... And it is funny - Because I think about this concept allot now when I meet new people - kinda put them into a category - weather they have a good hard work ethic/are passionate about something in their life - or weather they just go day to day - month to month - hobby to hobby - job to job - Just getting through life....  

Just some rambling....  :sleeping2:

+1 for Jeff. I was in kahoots when I read his post.
I agree with pretty much all of what he wrote. I understand what he is saying & meant to say.
I still belive determination wins over desire. Although you must have both.
I race for my own self satisfaction. I enjoy being able to prepare my machine & myself and ALWAYS know that I will be one of the fastest guys on the track period.
I am that guy who can take pretty much a stock bike and still go fast because I listen to Scott Russell say once that he blames no one but himself for his mistakes or speed on the track. Take it like a man and have NO excuses as to why you lost. You need to figure out how to go faster by better preparation or more practice of understanding.
To me people who are slow and never excel in what they do is because they gave up.


Nobody wants to hear excuses from anybody period. Like oh my tire pressure was off or my shock this or my motor that. Who cares? So instead of always having more excuses fix those problems so they don't happen again.
If you claim the pros or faster guys showed up and now I don't have a chance. That's BS.
Lets me ask something. Do you think I have been able to ride like I do through pure born with it talent?
No Way. I have taken more ass busters than most riders out there could ever imagine. But through determination I kept on learning HOW to go faster or handle my bike better.
Plain & simple everyone is born a winner. If your 6' tall and normally weigh 180-200lbs sure it might be harder to go faster than a 140lb guy. But I recall of Fritz Kling I believe was his name of still being able to win tons or races and he was that size.

Sure I am know as a guy who can go fast on just about any kind of bike. I'm sure if I ate a box a donuts and drank soda all day prior to a race I could still go just as fast. But if I did it everyday I would definately slow down because I would become and out of same fat ass.
I excersize everyday. I train on scooters several times per week. I read motorcycle dynamics books weekly, work on bike everyday, and ride everyday. I made my life that way so it benifits my racing. Starting at 3 riding motorcycles & racing at 4 yrs old helped me with that learning curve for sure. But I wasn't born a fast motorcycle rider. Neither was Dale Earnhart Jr. born a fast race car driver but though practice and being around racers everyday of his life it helped. His family made it that way for him. So did Earl Hayden with the boys.
See Earl understands that. Thats way his boys are doing as well as they are. Earls Lane is where they practice just about everyday of their lives.

Natural ability is just a BS term. Practice & knowledge get you ability "Natural Ability".
I could compare myself. If I was never born with the opportunity to ride I wouldn't be doing this. I would be doing something else.
Here is something about life. Attitude. Attitude about the way you look at life will help you in all areas of your life. I listen to motivational CD's a regular basis and it helps me. I started that because Colin Edwards talk about it in the early 90's & how it helped his mental attitude. It helps mine for sure.
I measure my success by how much stuff I had to give up to get there. Like partying, street riding with the other guys, nice toys, spending time time with family at social gatherings hanging out with my girlfriend. I have been labeled as being too into racing. It's all I do by my exgirlfriends. I have aways wondered if I am too into it or if I just haven't found the right girl.
My findings is that I do what I do well because I always put my fullest effort to something.
If I have a kid or get married it will slow me down a little bit because I won't be able to put the time & energy behind my efforts of racing like I did. Since my time would be directed at my family now & I would like to do that well too. You couldn't take away my knowledge of racing or riding but a competitor might have an edge on me because he rides all the time & I would get a little rusty.
Kind of like most riders in CCS racing.
Kids go fast because they have no worries on their minds. No bills, wives, kids, bosses to worry about. The average guy has way more cluttered in his mind. More responsibilites to take care of. Jeez he is taking care of the kid that can kick his ass!.
Thats why most older guys like to go racing since it is a way to get away from their responsibilites in life and forget about life for awhile.

It's next to impossible to excel in all areas of your life. Life is about an equal balance. You only have so much time & money.
So if your having a hard time beating a guy who has 10 millions dollars in the bank & doesn't work, all he does is ride. Your chances are slimmer to beat him but it's not impossible. You going to have to hope he parties too much and loses his balance in life and get out of shape or he crashes & injures himself and doesn't make the money race. Sad to say it like that but it's the truth.

Luck plays a huge roll in racing too. But your chances are better when you prepare and make sure your shit is tight and no mistakes have been made.  I have been unfortunate many times but throught determination I was able to continue on. I have had engines problems at every AMA National pretty much in the last 3 years. But I made every main event. Not many racers could pull their engines and replace transmission parts in less than 1 hr & 15min and still make the race like I have. Most give up and go home. I managed that with 5 guys who never pulled an engine before. But my team of guys listened as I told them what to do to make it happen and we pulled it off. Anything is possible you just have to believe you can do it! Self faith!
Sometimes in life you just need to have that $&ck it attitude and go for it. You might fail but how will you ever get anywear if you don't try!
You might crash but you must first crash to really know your limits. Through many crashes & close calls you learn the limits. As you get more expirenced you learn where that fine line is and how to keep it right there without crashing.

Like my Dad always told me: "HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT?" For some I guess it's not bad enough!
Now that my friends is fun for me. The challenge to go faster & understand more everytime I take to the track whether I'm riding a race bike, dirt bike or a spree!  :thumb:

ROCK ON!   :cheers:
Jason Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsports
"I believe it all inside your head"
The song that describes me is by Saliva called Survival of the Sickest & Click, Click, Boom  :kicknuts:
Check out my my space page!  http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=95061292 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=95061292)

Luck in racing?  Yes.

Fritz Kling, yes.  Dale Quarterley too.  Dan Chivington, Scott Gray, and Rob McElna.  All big guys.  Not guys on 250's though.

Natural ability.  Some people to have natural talents that do translate into this sport.  It's hard to explain the specifics, but I've learned to recognize it as quickly as I can because those riders need to be pointed differently than the rest of us more mortal riders.  Doesn't necessarily mean much all the time, but it can be relevant.

That whole natural ability thing I still call a thing that is related to attitude. People might have poor attitudes in life not by choice but because of the enviroment they were born in. So it affects there mental outlook on life in a negative way. Slows down the thinking process. But what I believe is everyone can work on developing better attitudes about it and when they change the way they look at life they understand things much easier.
So I believe a person who catches on in racing quicker will also catch on to other things in life quicker also.
In that aspect only.
There are many differernt variables to this and it is hard to explain. But never count out anyone's ability to learn a skill. Once they learn that skill other things in that area of life only get easier and easier to learn. Because everything in life has some sort of buddy thats like it. So it only gets easier and easier.
So Moms & Dads, bring up your kids well. Always tell them they can acheive whatever they want. Tell them they can fly to the moon if they want. Because it is possible.
I believe I can do whatever I want in life. I understand that some of the choices I have made won't let me be able to carry on certain lifestyles anymore. Like be the President or Possilby fly to the moon. As you get older & older your chances get slimmer & slimmer with the more responsiblities you put on yourself.
Believe in the man upstairs. He will take you farther than you could ever imagine!

Man upstairs will help if you ask.  Agreed, but we don't always like the answers.

A blind person is probably not well suited for racing, as an example.  They can't learn a skill such as sight.

Similarly, because of problems with my brain  :ahhh: and eyes, I do not and will never have depth perceptions.  I can't learn it, and I can't even modify my body to change that.  Maybe He's trying to tell me something?  LOL!

I guess, based on a lot of my experiences, I see many different abilities.  Certain things are not keys to other opportunities.  Even Keith Code talks about how someone having all the determination and desire in the world to be world champion might not be world champion because of a list of issues.  It can help, certainly, but all the other building blocks need to be there. 

Understandable Dave. But without that problem of yours you wouldn't have the drive that you have to overcome that. You might have learned other ways to go fast.
So the question is. Do you need depth perception as much as you think you do? I guess not. Your going pretty quick!
Here is my dilema: In case you people don't know, I am basically close to being deaf. I have had poor hearing my whole life and I always will. With ear plugs in I can't hear anyone talk period even if their next to screaming in my helment.
When a rider is right on my tail I can't hear that to know where he might be gaining on me.
But one advantage to that problem is that I don't get distracted as easily as others on the track. I able to focus more and just use my mind.
They say since you lack in one area of senses the others pick up for it.
I know that is true!

So Dave has no depth perception & Jason's deaf.  I was wondering why I had to bang the keys so hard when I typed to get my message across!

In all seriousness, from my perspective, we are just exhibiting that people are very different, but in a couple of LARGE basic groups.  (from what I read here, it seems that) Jason and I are a LOT alike in OUR abilities to use positive energy through thought, people, surroundings to benefit us in whatever we do.  While there are others who need to be given something more tangible to have that same 'reality'...

I'll take a rider with natural ability over determination any day. I know they will succeed on ability alone and then excel with determination. The path to the front will be much shorter and the drive will keep them there.

I've seen the natural riders go to the front right away. The ones with determination and drive went further up the ladder into pros and succeeded there. So, it's a combination of talent and drive that makes the really good ones.

Of course good equipment and a truck full of money also help. Without those last two you are'nt going real far now days.

Natural talent?

Is this why Billy Casper did so well, because he isn't built like most racers I've seen?   ::)

I've gotten slower over the past few years. My first track full track day I was hanging with the experts. After my very first wreck and then a surgery not too long ago, I seem to have backed off and lost what I once had.
My biggest problem more than anything else seems to be breaking. I always break too soon. And I'm 100% off the breaks by the time I turn in. for some reason I can't seem to trail break. On the street, not so much of a problem. On the track, I just can't seem to do it. I turn laps fast enough for me to easily finish in the middle of the pack but want to go faster (of course) and expect to be closer to the front. 

A typical turn for me...
I come down the straight, sit up, front break hard as I start to get off the side of the bike, I'm to the point now that the rear tire will hover under breaking and slip a little from side to side (awesome feeling), throw the bike into the turn and hold even throttle till the apex, then back on the gas as much as I can.
So my big question; what's the "real" use of trail breaking and will it make me faster to force myself to do it? And doesn't the front break make it harder to turn in???  and are there other little things to do to set up as you come to a turn to help get into it better/faster????

CMON  some of the better racers  fess up this is good- i feel same about breaking to early-i need to see brake markers but focus on where i am in relation to actual turn.john

damn guys. i didn't mean to scare everybody off.

Quote from: Court Jester on December 20, 2006, 04:47:24 PM
So my big question; what's the "real" use of trail breaking and will it make me faster to force myself to do it? And doesn't the front break make it harder to turn in???  and are there other little things to do to set up as you come to a turn to help get into it better/faster????

People learn very differently, so some of my comments may not be applicable to you, or work in your necessary scenario.

First off, being on the brakes does not make it harder to turn in.  In fact it makes it easier to turn in.  Braking is really necessary in turning because it gets the geometry of the bike all goofy which promotes instability, resulting in a bike that no longer has a 100% desire to go straight.  Hard on the brakes, the front compresses, the rear jacks, the wheel base shortens.  The bike now WANTS to turn.

Will trail braking make you faster?  Big debate.  There are 2 schools of thought here.  1 says YES, 1 says NO.  For me, trail braking was something I would use if I had to significantly change my normal braking pattern (i.e., while passing).  The problem that most people have with trail braking are that they grossly over brake and it kills their drive out of a corner, or they end up getting ass-packed in the middle of a corner.  Or, worse yet, the front end loses traction and they fall down.

Can you brake straight up & down and still be as fast?  Absolutely...  

It has everything to do with corner speed and drive.  

If you REALLY want to find out what you can do in a corner, go to a few Keith Code California Superbike Schools and you'll see.  You will spend days riding in 1-2 gears (usually 3rd or 4th) while using NO BRAKES...  With that technique, you have a great deal of time to process a corner as it comes to you, and you go through it many times, much faster than you would go through it while using brakes.

Brakes are a huge crutch which are severely abused by many riders.  They barrel down a straight with their nuts on fire, get freaked out because they see a corner, over brake and lose everything their 180 hp 1000 cc bike "gained" them on that straight.

Pick up Keith Code's Twist of the wrist II and read it...

Great information here! Thanks for the insight.

thank you very much.
i have the book and read it a few times. i need to do the school though. some kind of school anyway

Quote from: Jeff on December 21, 2006, 09:18:06 AM

First off, being on the brakes does not make it harder to turn in.  In fact it makes it easier to turn in.  Braking is really necessary in turning because it gets the geometry of the bike all goofy which promotes instability, resulting in a bike that no longer has a 100% desire to go straight.  Hard on the brakes, the front compresses, the rear jacks, the wheel base shortens.  The bike now WANTS to turn.

Jeff I have to beg the differ on your braking theory. Being on the brakes does make it harder to turn it. Try this once. Take a bike while slightly leaned over going about say 50mph or whatever speed you want to try this at and while holding a constant lean angle apply the front brakes and watch what happens. The bike will go wide because it is forced to stand up. The motion of the front tire spinning is being slowed so that energy gets converted somewhere else. It goes up the forks into the steering head bearings. Which makes the weight behind the steering head from the engine/frame/rider/etc push the neck of the frame towards the outside of the turn. That also causes countersteering back in the other direction which literally makes the bike want to run right off the track until you let the brakes of so the bike can steer back in.
Trail braking is only used to make minor speed adjustments like while outbraking another rider into a turn since you are not going as fast as you could go anyways. It isn't supposed to be used all the way to the apex of a turn.
When a motorcycle is taken to the limit of traction & speed into a turn the rider is hard on the front brakes. Very hard as to where the rear of the bike is skating along the asphalt. The rider puts his weight already to the inside of the bike prior to braking so that when the bike becomes light in the rear the tire will swing out towards the outside of the turn setting you up for a point & shoot into the turn.
The rider is still hard on the front brakes now. When turn in point is reached you let the front brakes off not slowly or super fast either. Just medium pace as the rear tire will now come inline with the front as the whole bike drops into the corner.
It feels strange the first times you do it as you feel like you will fall off the bike. But after time you will finesse it and the bike just falls into the corner as it becomes a normal feeling.
All this takes a LONG time to perfect. It is best to start practicing on a dirt bike or motard bike to get that feeling. I ride off of feeling not principal. During practice I use my understanding to try to take a turn better. But come race time I take what I know & ride off of feeling.

You have to practice on a dirt bike with no front brake once. When you have no front brake you have to just know when to let off into the turn and slow down by scrubbing off speed. If you let off too late you just run wide a little and next time you let off slightly earlier till you get it right.
When your riding a dirtbike you will feel as the rear tire is stepping out while sliding into the turn, when the tires stop sliding & start hooking again the steering will snap into the corner and the bike will fall into the corner so nicely waiting for you to get on the gas. The steering will hook in just before the apex and you get on the throttle right slightly before the apex.

When you brake the front end compresses and the geometry changes for sure. But the braking power of slowing down pushes the bike wide while you lean the bike in until you let the brakes off then the bike falls into the turn. 
Weight placement also makes a huge deal on getting the bike turned in and through the turn.
Taking turns like this only works on sharp turns. Your not going to be able to do this like into the carosel at Road America.
There is a process that my mind goes through will taking are turn just anyone elses. I am thinking about breaking down what actually goes through my mind going into a turn.
Here is a pic of a nice slide into turn 5 @ Road America.
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Here is a pic of me barely making it into the bend during the 600 Supersport Race @ Road America this year. If you look at my forks they are completely compress while still turned into the turn. I'm obviously running wide from braking too late into the turn. The debate in my mind is do I blow the turn or try to save it and maybe hit the grass going down?
Well I know the bike is harder to turn while on the brakes but if I let off & turn I will completely blow the exit & entry of the next turn coming up. So I'm trying to slow it down and still make the turn. Can't give up im in 11th place just behind 10th. Well this is where I blew my whole race on this one mistake. I made the turn but everyone caught me that was behind me.
Look at the pic of the forks compressed and the steering turning into the corner.
Then look at the next pic of the brakes being let off and forks uncompressing and the steering turning outward like normal allowing me to turn the bike in. I was inches from hitting the grass but I told myself the only way to make it is to let off the brakes.
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Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 21, 2006, 01:17:36 PM
Jeff I have to beg the differ on your braking theory. Being on the brakes does make it harder to turn it. Try this once. Take a bike while slightly leaned over going about say 50mph or whatever speed you want to try this at and while holding a constant lean angle apply the front brakes and watch what happens. The bike will go wide because it is forced to stand up.

Sure, mid-corner, you bet it will.  However, being upright and dropping the front end, raising the rear end and shortening the wheelbase make for a VERY twitchy combination which is far more capable of turning than a fully extended bike which is on the gas.

I see what you are saying, I just don't know if you understood the intention of my original point.

The real answer is somwhere in the middle here. It's a long known fact that applying the brakes in a turn will cause the bike standup, this is however the case when you are already in the corner steady state and change nothing else. this is NOT trail braking. Trail braking  is still being on the brakes when you turn in, at this point the bike is still straight up and down so the brakes can't possibly make the bike stand up, you have however compressed  the forks altering the front geometery making the setup much more agressive in terms of wantiing to turn. Now if you do your trail braking correctly and release the brakes  about halfway to the apex you will feel the bike fall (the inverse by the way of your bike stands up with brakes theory) into the apex, now power out and  go like a madman with his hair on fire find another corner and do it all over again.

Dammit Jeff, I finally find a post I can make a constructive comment in and my drug induced semi coma let's you out brake me into the post button. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

LOL...  no sweat Paul...  it's all good discussion.  I think we can all learn from each other's experience.

Thanks CHEDMAFIA- this is turnin out to be a favorite thread already WOW you gotta be willing to take these posts seriously especially when the guy sticks a pic of himself +1 EBOZ! thanks again i just found my old copy also and now that some things are becoming clearer, i want to read it again!  Yea Jason,i,m gonna save all that, at 51 its some of the best procedural stuff ive read! Thanks John in NJ

After reading everyone's input on brakes, trail braking and turning in, I have to add my .02.
At the speeds we are going  (trying to achieve) traction is at short supply. Fact #1- applying the brakes (slowing the speed of the bike) produces the natural tendency for the bike to straighten up.  To over come this you have to apply more exerted pressure (pull) on the bars and pegs to maintain your chosen line through the turn. This over-exertion creates more friction on the outside edges of our tires telling us one of two things; our compound is not suited for the track conditions or our suspension is too slow. Neither of which is true in this circumstance. Many have dicked "tuning" their suspension to cure a problem that is solely induced by the rider's (error) style.
I raced HW's and won championships in my amateur year of CCS. As an expert I switched to LW's because I knew I had the tendency to "wack the throttle" to make up for my own shortcomings on carrying good speed through my turns. Horse power is a wonderful thing! I have learned alot from doing LWs and had loads of fun learning. I do however miss the HP!
If you ever have the chance to do a track day or even a race or two on a friend's LW bike, I highly suggest it. It will bring out a valuable learning experience that you can carry throughout your racing career. One is how not to dump the throttle, grab a handful of brake and kill all that good speed. But how to carry VALUABLE corner speed, and mostly how to make butter smooth transitions from entry to exit.  
Take a look at it this way: with your bike at speed, generally it's stable and predictable. If your actions induce any unsettling of it's stability, the result is going to be more effort on your part physically and resulting more than likely in slower lap times.
Smooth makes F-A-S-T and it's easier on the equipment.
Body position (including your eyes), gear selection, brakes, bar and peg input, and throttle. Your mileage may differ.... :thumb:
BTW great pictures of #260 FARRELL at the limits of traction! Those pictures really speak the truth.

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 21, 2006, 01:17:36 PM
Jeff I have to beg the differ on your braking theory. Being on the brakes does make it harder to turn it. Try this once. Take a bike while slightly leaned over going about say 50mph or whatever speed you want to try this at and while holding a constant lean angle apply the front brakes and watch what happens. The bike will go wide because it is forced to stand up. The motion of the front tire spinning is being slowed so that energy gets converted somewhere else. It goes up the forks into the steering head bearings. Which makes the weight behind the steering head from the engine/frame/rider/etc push the neck of the frame towards the outside of the turn. That also causes countersteering back in the other direction which literally makes the bike want to run right off the track until you let the brakes of so the bike can steer back in.

Couple things. You are comparing apples to oranges. Turning while braking and putting on the brakes while you are already turning are not the same thing.

Your description of why a bike turns wide is not correct. It is due to the fact that while leaned, your contact patch moves towards the edge of the tire (inner edge in the case of turning). This offsetting of the contact patch it what causes some bikes to stand up when braked while turning (not all bikes do it, even with the same front tire, also this affect really wasn't noticed until bikes got wider front tires). ISTR that Tony Foale covers this in his book (I don't have my copy handy) http://www.tonyfoale.com/Main.htm. If your front wheel were like a pizza cutter, it would not stand up under braking.

The energy of the spinning tire does not move up the forks (exactly by what process does this happen?), the energy of the front tire goes into heating up the front brake rotors.

Well I need to prove a point now.
Ok lets just say for instance. You bolt a front axle to a vise somehow right. Now with forks & brake calipers connected still. Lay the forks on the floor. Spin the wheel at say 60mph on the bench. Now try to stop that wheel from spinning by using the brake calipers that are mounted to the forks.
This is simple science people.
Apply the brakes at full force to stop the wheel.
Let me ask a 10 yr old what will happen.
Well lets see. The forks will go flying up and flip over to the other side.
So what I am saying is if you apply front brakes at ANY time you will have a torque being applied somewhere else. That torque goes makes the forks travel upward. Now if your going in a straight line the energy lifts the rear wheel off the ground.
So if you lean into a turn while the brakes are still applied it is very hard to countersteer into a turn because as the bike wants to turn in the forks are pulling up on the frame which makes it pull towards the outside of the turn.
Now when you let the brakes off that energy of pulling the forks up is gone so it lets the bike continue what it wants to do. And that is lean into the turn.

See the reason the brake rotors heat up is because the forks and the bike have weight on them of which counteracts the brake pressure of the pads pressing on the rotor. If the forks where allowed to spin around forever and not slow the bike they would never heat up.

We are racing motorcycles here. Not pizza cutters. Just saying that it is obvious that the contact patch will move. You couldn't race a motorcycle with pizza cutters otherwise we would have them on our bikes. I have ridden tons of motorcycles & bicycles for that matter. They all work the same.
I have a mountain bike in my shop that I use for expiriments. I ride that thing around the parking lot and the same principals apply. If I hit the brakes on a bicycle while leaning to the left the tire turns into the corner and the steering neck pulls the bike up toward the outside of the turn.

Take your bicycle outside right now and tell me that is not true.
And for fun sake while going 35mph on your bike brake and lean into a turn. I'll bet it runs wide everytime unless you hit some ice or slick spot today.

+1 !!

If you (#260) didn't let off the brakes in that picture, the next shot the photographer would have taken would be one that resembles a green lawn mower! :biggrin:

I don't understand it.  I can't put it in a sentance.  I can't explain it.  But I do know that when on the brakes my bike does not want to turn as easily as it does when off the brakes. 

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 21, 2006, 06:44:33 PM
The forks will go flying up and flip over to the other side.
So what I am saying is if you apply front brakes at ANY time you will have a torque being applied somewhere else. That torque goes makes the forks travel upward. Now if your going in a straight line the energy lifts the rear wheel off the ground.
So if you lean into a turn while the brakes are still applied it is very hard to countersteer into a turn because as the bike wants to turn in the forks are pulling up on the frame which makes it pull towards the outside of the turn.
Now when you let the brakes off that energy of pulling the forks up is gone so it lets the bike continue what it wants to do. And that is lean into the turn.

Actually that torque will cause the fork to bind and movement of the slider and tube to cease if the torque is great enough. The only thing that is going to move the fork up is weight transfer which has nothing to do with the torque and everything to do with the heat in the rotors. Otherwise your statement is correct and is what trailbraking is all about. You get the rear up, the front down and then a very light input will flip this god aweful agressive geometry into the turn. At this point you release the brakes and the bike will fall (incerase lean angle radically) into the apex where you will now start applying power. You've almost got it but as TZ points out braking while already leaned over and braking before leaning over are VERY different things.

damn, this is now my most favoretst thread. thanks a million for everyone's input here. i'm sure it will prove to be a huge help

Here Garth you ready for this one. I tried explaining what goes through me mind on the track. This is just one turn with a bunch of crap added into it. Wait till I get the rest of the track done. Hope you have time to read this. It might be the longest post ever.

Blackhawk Farms Raceway

Jason Farrell's Version

Bike: 2005 ZX6R
•   Tires: Pirelli Supercorsa Pro
o   Tire Pressure   
   Front 33 psi hot on warmers pre race
   Rear 33 psi hot on warmers pre race
•   Suspension:
o   Front:   
   Race Tech Compression & Rebound Stack
   Race Tech Springs .90kg/mm
   Rider Sag: 30mm
o   Rear:   
   Penske Triple w/500lb rear spring
   Rider Sag: 30mm
•   Gearing:
o   14/42 or 14/43 depending on conditions(stock is 15/43)

Gears in each turn on track

Turn #   Gear Position
1   3rd
2   5th
3   4th
3 Bus stop   3rd
4   3rd
5   4th
6   2nd
6a   3rd
7   2nd or 3rd

(Depending on if I'm by myself or following someone I'm in 3rd by myself because I'm able to carry more cornering speed through turn 7)

Turn 1
After shifting into 6th on the front straight about 100ft before the tower, I'm getting ready for turn one. Now turn 1 goes to the right so I'm going to start moving my body over to the right side of the bike. I get my butt off to the right side slightly. Now prior to backing off I have my foot over the top of the shift pedal, my 2 fingers on each hand over the levers ready for action. My right palm is resting on the throttle while it is still wide open.
I always keep my hands really light on the bars so I'm barely holding on. My bike position is about 5 ft from the left side of the track. My brake marker for turn 1 is that I hold it wide open until the bridge disappears from my vision above me. Stuff starts happening really quick from here.
I lift up my right palm from the throttle and it slams shut from the spring loaded throttle reel. Using two fingers on the brake lever & all 4 on the clutch lever, I pull the clutch lever in half way just enough to release the clutch plates & unload the transmission gears. I click down on the shift lever once and very quickly release the lever since the difference between gearing ratios from 6th to 5th is very close matching engine speed to rear wheel speed isn't anything to worry about until you get down into the lowers gears.
At the same time I'm pulling in the clutch lever I'm pulling the front brake lever pretty hard. I use about 75%-80% of my full braking right away quickly. The last 20%-25% gets applied more as the front suspension travels all the way down. By the time I shift into 4th gear I'm applying 100% of my braking power. Now when I say 100% I mean the rear tire is just starting to get light. You don't want to too make the rear tire come off the road since you will lose engine braking. Engine braking is very crucial at the speeds I run since I'm going in as late as anyone can go period. If I blow it anywhere in this process I will not make the turn, crash, or run really wide & kill my drive. So over braking is no good either.
While braking my body is all the way back in the seat so I have more weight over the rear tire to help in keeping the rear tire on the road for engine braking & so I can brake even later. Using some form of Grip tape or Stomp tank pads helps me stay back in the saddle to keep the weight over the rear. Squeeze the tank with your knees while keeping the ball of your right foot on the right peg and your left foot is just covering the shift pedal and drive the front part of your heel into the footpeg you want to keep the weight down low and on the pegs. Don't be lazy. You basically want to put all your weight on the pegs and on the tank. Try keeping as much weight as you can off the seat & bars.
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Now shifting down to 4th from 5th I still bang the clutch out as fast as I can. I shift from 6th to 4th as fast as I can. I mean as fast as I can period. Like bang bang. Then the last from 4th to 3rd I let the clutch out at about half the speed to match engine speed to road speed even though I have a slipper clutch setup very good I'm still easy on that last clutch drop. The rear end feels like it really light like its about to float away. It slowly steps off to the left, I'm talking about 4 inches as I let the clutch out in 3rd gear. I'm still hard on the brakes, I mean as hard as I can be modulating the lever while feeling if the rear tire is getting too light or not light enough.
While letting the clutch out into 3rd gear & braking hard I shift more weight on the right handlebar say about 75% of the force. Since I am done shifting down I take the weight off my heal & slide my foot back so the ball of my foot is on the peg and drive my left knee into the tank. At the same time upper body is starting to move towards the right side of the bike and moving forward. I let the braking force slide my butt up against the tank while I'm bending my elbows in.
My outside knee & elbow touch together & lock onto the tank. Locking the elbow & knee together helps me control & feel the bike. It keeps the rear from stepping out too far since I am holding the bike inline with my knee of which is connected to the peg & elbow of which is connected to the handlebar. (Of which why I don't use steering dampers much) I can let it step out as much as I want to.
My upper body is moving forward & to the right just before I turn in. Now you're probably asking how I know where to turn in. It's through trial & error of knowing what your bike can do & repetition of laps. I ride off of feeling of just knowing when to turn through memory of what I did last laps & what my experience tells me I can do while going this speed.
Where ever my turn point is at that moment the rear tire is still out of line with the front. It is hard to steer the bike while you have the brakes on so bar pressure on the inside is crucial to keeping the tire pointing outward (which helps countersteering of which turns a bike) because being on the brakes makes the steering want to turn toward the inside of the turn while you lean in because the weigh of the frame, engine, rider, etc has motion in which it is going forward. At that time you now are trying to move that weight behind the steering neck in a different direction to follow the front tire's direction. But what you must realize is that when you apply the brakes the forks want rotate in the direction the wheel is going while it is slowing down the wheel.
Now with that forward motion of the forks at play with the brakes still being applied, the steering has no choice but to turn toward the inside of the corner because the weigh of the frame pushes toward the outside of the turn. So if the weight of the bike and the gyroscopic motion of the wheels, crankshaft, & transmission aren't enough to turn the bike now we want to trail brake!
Now with the rear still slightly stepped out and the bike following your predicted line or feeling slightly light it might run wide. At the right time you let the front brakes off at a nice medium pace and the rear tire will have weight on it again. Since the rear tire has more weight on it than before and the weight of the rider/frame/engine/etc has more weight total inline than the front tire & forks direction. The direction of the rear tire will over power the front tires direction and it will make the steering snap back toward the inside a little. This motion sets the bike up for a nice inside direction while if you do it at the right time will put you on the perfect line at the apex.
Now when you get on the throttle you are opening up the butterflies in the throttle bodies allowing the engine to breathe. So instead of the rear tire driving the motor because the clutch basket is trying to drive the crank while the gas is off. With the butterflies closed the piston can't draw any air into the cylinders which is like putting the brakes on the rear tire. When you crack the gas on you allow the pistons to breath air and the crank to spin freely & match the rear tires speed. Which allows the rear wheel to rotate freely without any resistance.
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Getting on the gas sooner also changes the pull on chain so it pulls the rear tire. The chain from the engine to the sprocket gets tight. Since the chain is pulling the rear tire hard and the rear sprocket is lower than the front sprocket. The swingarm actually moves in a downward motion (called anti-squat) which since the swingarm can't go down anymore it raises the frame of the bike up which in turn gives you more clearance between any parts on the bike like the engine covers / rearsets and the ground. It also puts more pressure on the rear tire's contact patch thuse giving more traction.
But there is a trade off to that; too much anti squat only causes the suspension in the rear from working at all! The most anti squat you will have is at peak torque in your engine's powerband. If you stop the suspension from soaking up bumps what happens is when you hit a big bump the rear tire will jump the bump instead of soaking it up which in turn causes the rear to spin stepping the rear tire out sideways and if you chop the throttle you lose all antisquat, drive on the rear tire in which it will gain traction which will cause the suspension to squat and throw you off into a wild side because now the tire is stepped out and it hooks up. The suspension squats and the weight goes to the rear causing the energy to load the rear spring & unload the front springs. The only chance you have in saving this nasty situation is to somehow get your weight off towards the inside of the turn trying to keep the bike from flipping to the outside from the energy of the rear spring bouncing back up. When it does bounce back up you need to be on the inside of the bike to help hold it down and you might land on the tank and save it. Otherwise it's a trip to the moon!
So what I'm saying after all that is if you hangoff the bike on the inside in the direction of the turn you going in it will only help in so many ways. Plus you and the bike are 1. You are married to the thing. What you do together will make how quickly you can get around the track.
Look at Ben Spies. His riding style is the reason he is going as fast as he is. Look at how he hangs off the bike in the Canada Corner @ Road America.
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I will tell you that this is a huge reason factory riders are faster than privateers. They are in shape and understand how to ride the bike and make it go where they want it to go.
Some people say that you either have the skill or you don't. Sorry but I don't believe in that. That's old adage. I believe you can learn the skill if you just try & apply the correct thinking.
Back to exiting turn 1.
Now when the throttle is cracked on just before the apex and your flying you better be looking up the track at turn 2, NOT the outside of the corner! Because if you look at the outside of the turn you will end up there. If you look up the track you will be very surprised at how the bike holds a line so much better and you can get on the gas more & more & more. You should be progressively opening the throttle faster & faster.
At this time I'm hanging off the bike as far as I can to keep the bike up as much as possible so I have more tire on the road.  While hanging off & accelerating I am feeling that rear tire & the force between my outside knee & elbow against the tank. I am driving my outside foot into the footpeg to get my butt off the seat slightly. It also helps keep my body towards the inside of the turn.
Now if my rear tire does spin up it will be easy to control since I am bracing my body to the tank with my elbow & knee. Plus my butt is about off the seat which gives me suspension in my knees to help counteract any bumps or hollows in the road. That keeps the chassis less upset.
Your gearing should be set up so that your rpms are just redlining right after you straighten out or slightly after the bike stands up completely. At the apex it should be just at peak torque in your powerband to help you drive off the corner with the most amount of torque available.
About Your weight as a rider:
You and the bike are considered 1 weight. You sitting on the bike are a variable if you want to be. You can alter the center of gravity of you and the bike by moving around to make the bike handle better in whatever situation you need. A lighter weight rider has less weight to throw around to make a difference if he needs. Where as a heavier rider can use weight to his advantage to make the bike do what he wants it to do. But also remember that the more you weight the more your bikes handling can get screwed up if you have it in the wrong place. So kind of like the saying the bigger they are the harder they fall!

I will try to simplify the rest of the track when I write about it later. I'm beat tired. Time for bed. I'll try to keep this lap going several turns a week. By the time I finish I will be able to think about publishing it somehow.
The above writing is owned by Jason Farrell of Speed Tech Racing and is not to be reproduced or copied at anytime. Write Jason Farrell for permission to use this information in this thread.  The above writing is a opinion and Jason Farrell is not responsible for mistakes in spelling or anyone using this information for personal or professional use.

All Photos used above were taken by Alan James Berg of Speed Tech Racing. Thanks Alan!

Earlier when I was saying that it makes the forks go up I was talking in reference to the forks being on the bench yet. All I'm saying is that at anytime when you apply the brakes the forks want to rotate in the direction of the wheel which in someway rotates the forks up. I forgot to use the word rotates.
That rotation causes the  frame to lift up causing it to run wide. If your following me. It's hard to write this stuff in words but I'm working on it. "Cause you know sometimes words have 2 meanings". Just try to picture what I'm saying.
Trust me I know how this stuff works. I do it, I don't just talk of it. It just putting it in words in everyones elses mind that is the problem.

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 22, 2006, 09:12:09 AM
Earlier when I was saying that it makes the forks go up I was talking in reference to the forks being on the bench yet. All I'm saying is that at anytime when you apply the brakes the forks want to rotate in the direction of the wheel which in someway rotates the forks up. I forgot to use the word rotates.
That rotation causes the  frame to lift up causing it to run wide. If your following me. It's hard to write this stuff in words but I'm working on it. "Cause you know sometimes words have 2 meanings". Just try to picture what I'm saying.
Trust me I know how this stuff works. I do it, I don't just talk of it. It just putting it in words in everyones elses mind that is the problem.

Jason, you are correct to a point. You are describing conservation of angular momentum. But you are ignoring the opposing torque being applied by gravity. You cannot ignore the rest of the motorcycle. As you brake, the front tire slows, it is losing angular momentum. The torque that slows the front wheel is applied by the brakes. This torque in called an internal torque - our system being the entire motorcycle. If one part of the motorcycle applies a torque (or force) to another part of the motorcycle, this is an internal torque (or internal force). An internal torque cannot change the value of the angular momentum, hence if free to rotate, the entire motorcycle would begin to rotate in the same direction as the front wheel, ie want to stoppie. However our motorcycle is not free to rotate. Gravity is acting downward through the center of mass (CM). This is an external torque, and external torque can change angular momentum (torrque = the tome rate of change of angular momentum or torque = dL/dt). This is what keeps the bike from doing a stoppie. At the braking done while turning, this torque is more than adequate to keep the rear wheel planted while turning. The rotation takes place in a plane perpendicular (normal) to the front axle. This angle is not correct to raise a bike in such a way to run wide. As a matter of fact, enough braking while turning will cause the rear wheel to begin to lose traction and start to swing to the outside of the turn. I have managed to do this when braking through kink type turns. Somewhat disconcerting, but did not cause my bike to want to run wide.

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on December 21, 2006, 06:53:43 PM

We are racing motorcycles here. Not pizza cutters. Just saying that it is obvious that the contact patch will move. You couldn't race a motorcycle with pizza cutters otherwise we would have them on our bikes. I have ridden tons of motorcycles & bicycles for that matter. They all work the same.
I have a mountain bike in my shop that I use for expiriments. I ride that thing around the parking lot and the same principals apply. If I hit the brakes on a bicycle while leaning to the left the tire turns into the corner and the steering neck pulls the bike up toward the outside of the turn.

Take your bicycle outside right now and tell me that is not true.
And for fun sake while going 35mph on your bike brake and lean into a turn. I'll bet it runs wide everytime unless you hit some ice or slick spot today.

The reason the pizza cutter example is examined is to try to understand the phenomena. In the case of pizza cutter wheels, the bike won't stand up under braking, wheels with width will. Therefore the (main) cause must be the with of the tires.

Yes it can happen on a bicycle. When you lean, the contact patch moves from the center of the tire. When you brake this causes a torque that causes the wheel to turn in the direction of the turn (as you correctly describe). Now where you go wrong is in the description of what happens next. The torque you are appling through the contact patch (the one that is causing the wheel to turn, this is not the same torque as being applied to the fork by the brakes) is not parallel (or anti-parallel) the the angular momentum of the front wheel. angular momenntum and torque are vectors - they have a value (length - magnitude) and a direction. When a torque is applied not parallel to an angular momentum, it causes the direction of the angular momentum to change, not the magnitude. This is called precession. The net result is that the front wheel wants to stand up, since the front wheel is more or less rigidly connected to the frame, the result is the entire motorcycle stands up.

The standing up is not the result of the motorcycle trying to stoppie (rotate about the front axle - your experiment with the bench vise), but the result of the torque applid to a turning front wheel when the brakes are applied.

Found this last night

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:13 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Braking under lean

Patrick asked:

<<
. Why
do bikes stand up when the front brake is applied while cornering and why
do some bikes do it so much more than others?
>>

There are many factors involved, as usual, but one to consider is:
When leaning, the tyre contact patch moves to the inside, so when we apply
the brake a torque is generated trying to steer into the corner, this causes
a precessional motion in a direction tending to make the bike standup.
Tyre width and other considerations will affect the degree of this tendency.
Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

I don't disagree with the affect you are descibing, I am disagreeing with your description of the cause.

Also, as I have been stating, if you are braking before initiating the turn, the stand up affect is not noticed because you push the bar as hard as it takes to make the turn. I have never found trail braking and staying on line to be much of a problem unless I have entred the corner too fast.

If you brake after you have begun turning and you are ready for the bike to try to stand up, you can counteract this by more countersteering. If you are not ready, the bike will stand up, then you will turn more, but the bike has already begun to run wide and you will have to turn even more to get back on line.

One reason Eddie Lawson gave for trail braking was to keep the forks compressed so the the bike would not more upwards with the brakes released and then recompress when turning. He would release the brkes as the cornering forces increased keeping the forks at the same compression through the transition from braking load to cornering load. This makes the bike more responsive to your turning input because you do not have the transient period of the forks diving as the cornering forces are applied.

Ok all things equal. I can't ignore the fact that there is gravity. You can still overpower gravity though and do stoppies with enough braking force to rotate the forks around the axle.
If you brake while in a turn and the rear tire comes off the ground, could that be because you have too much weight over the front end & towards the outside of the turn?
Point is you can make a bike pretty much anything if you weight it incorrectly or apply brakes or throttle at the wrong times. If you watch stunt riders you can learn a lot on how to make a bike do what you want it to do.
Off the subject, I don't like when racers talk crap about stunters. Stunters are quite talented riders to do what they are doing. Most of them do what they can do because they think outside the box on how to get their bike to do what they want it to do. Racers can learn from them if they just watch how they do things. Just because they trash their bikes and show what you think disrespect to their machines doesn't make them bad people.
That's what they do. They have to crash to learn. Yes there are dumb asses out there doing it on city streets harming others just like roadracers on the street. They ruin it for the guys that do it in controlled environments. We are all pretty much guilty of one time or another breaking the law and possibly putting others at risk by our actions on the street.

Well put & described Brian. I understand the same feelings and know how to act or counteract to it. It's just all the specific words to use must be said right as to not confuse peoples minds.
I think a model should be made to describe this action. I'm working on that.
I also believe that explaining how things work and what actually get affected as a result by writing them will help people better understand it. Using specific words that they don't understand yet will just throw them for a loop even more!

Lets keep this thread going with many examples.

This debate is also why I laugh when people try to tell me that there is a "correct ride height for a 2006 R6 on pirelli tires"

It sounds like Farrell likes to trail brake really deep into corners, and he's fast.
Ed Key appears to be completely out of the brakes before he turns in, and he's also fast.

If those two riders were on the same bike with the same static geometry, think of the difference in rake, trail, and ride height between the two bikes near the apex of the corner, with one rider on the gas and the other just letting off the brakes.

I have been know to wear front tires out just as much as the rear at certain tracks! I like using the front tire to all of its traction at times. I can sometimes have really good days where I will use the front tire to it's maximum by sliding every so slightly all the way to the apex or until I get on the gas.
Thats why I don't like to use a damper. The damper takes away the feel I need to see if the front tire is sliding. Otherwise the damper keeps the steering straight and you lose the feel as to when it will let go.
I don't ride the front in every turn but probably more than most guys.

Quote from: tzracer on December 21, 2006, 05:44:20 PM
Your description of why a bike turns wide is not correct. It is due to the fact that while leaned, your contact patch moves towards the edge of the tire (inner edge in the case of turning). This offsetting of the contact patch it what causes some bikes to stand up when braked while turning (not all bikes do it, even with the same front tire, also this affect really wasn't noticed until bikes got wider front tires). ISTR that Tony Foale covers this in his book (I don't have my copy handy) http://www.tonyfoale.com/Main.htm. If your front wheel were like a pizza cutter, it would not stand up under braking.

     You guys should read some of Foales writings, its pretty good stuff.  Brian knows what he's talking about.  Think about the bike, just as a smiplification, lets say its five big gyroscopes; the front wheel, the forks/triples when you turn them, the engine, the rear wheel, and the whole bike when its turning.  So, youre riding completely upright and you brake.  The bike slows down and assuming you aren't turning at all and everything is inline you shouldnt feel much resistance from the bars.  Now, youre braking and getting ready to go into a right hand turn.  You push the right bar out and pull the left bar in initially to initiate the "fall".  When you do this, the bike begins to lean to the right consequently, the contact patch shifts towards the right side of your tire.  Now, remember youre braking, so the force acting on the tire from the gound is pointed backwards.  Because the contact patch is out of line with the center of your front end now, a moment is created between the ground and tire due to this braking force.  This moment acts to rotate the front end (i.e. wheel, brakes, forks, etc.) clockwise, thereby arresting your "fall" and standing the bike upright.  If you were simply braking, gave the correspnding push and pull on the bars to start the turn in, continue braking but released pressure on the bars, the bike would stand itself up.  But, since you want to make the turn, instead of releasing prssure on the bars, you push harder on the inside bar and pull harder on the outside bar to intiate the fall.  Well before the apex youve begun to arrest your fall by pulling on the inside bar and pushing on the outside bar.  If youre still on the brakes, your effort is reduced here.  If not, its just like turning without brakes from then on out.  Also, there is much more force on the front wheel when you are braking and this by itself makes it harder to turn the wheel.

     The best example I can think of for this is braking on the front straight at talladega.  Lets say that were running the course ccw.  Im using this as an example because when you enter the little chicane youre still braking really hard before you let off the brakes and flip the bike over for the left hander.  The initial right hand portion of the chicane isnt very severe, so you arent turning the bike that much, but think of how much harder it is to make the bike turn the way you want it to there compared to when youre off of the brakes and go back in the left hander.

     +1 to Brian for reading Tony Foale.

this is my first post on this subject, and seeing that I dont want to ramble on for a page im sure i will not write everything that is flying around in my head. however...............

Something I have learned/been drilled into my head by my dad (an accomplished road racer) is thats trail braking is there for a reason. When I come into a corner my main objective is simply to never allow my suspension to move (of course there will be variances bumps, tire slip, etc...). Its all about load, tires will grip exponentially better if the load on them never changes. I load the front coming into the corner with the brakes, compressing the suspension say 75%, as I enter the corner, i slowly trail my brake away, but as my brakes stop pressing the bike onto the front end, the front tire begins to really eat into the pavement and pushes the wheel into the bike keeping my suspension compressed at the same rate, the next step is to roll the throttle on while still releasing the brake continuing to press the front end into the ground until it is time to pick the bike up while keeping my body low and accelerate out of the corner. if you ever find youself doing nothing, i.e. not braking, or not accelerating you could be going faster. fast guys dont coast! the brake and throttle should act as one control acting in exactly opposite ways, as you roll of the gas you should already be squezing the front brake, then as you slowly release brake pressure you should already have the throttle actuated. I often go through a corner that doesnt requir a ton of countersteer without ever closing the throttle all of the way. it works just like braking straight up and down, you dont jab you front brake from 0% pressure all the way to 75 % pressure when you hit your marker, when I hit my marker i squeze the brake to settle the chassis, once settled I am able to aply as much force as I want to.

take it or leave it, im not as fast as some of the other guys yet, but I am new to this, however my family is not and alot of the knowledge gained over the past 25 years has been transfered to me through years of learning through all different types of mediums, bike, dirtbike, car, and road racer.


so there it is, as I reread the posts im sure I will come back with more info but thats what  have for now, have a nice day and start trail braking  :thumb:

Quote from: benprobst on December 23, 2006, 10:55:05 PM
fast guys dont coast!

I have the hardest time not coasting, I just get into riding, relax and forget that I'm racing.

Quote from: funsizeracing on December 27, 2006, 10:02:38 PM
I have the hardest time not coasting, I just get into riding, relax and forget that I'm racing.

fast guys and GIRLS dont coast. you didnt seem to be coasting to much this season Becka, though it must be hard to trail brake when you only weigh 89 lbs. the bike doesnt even know you there, at least you got ride of the 190lb. rider shock.

i coast from my turn in point to about the apex. give or take. depends on the turn. if it's a long turn i may have the throttle open just enough to keep steady speed.

Quote from: benprobst on December 23, 2006, 10:55:05 PM
...fast guys dont coast!

No, they don't. But charging corners is as bad as coasting. You wind up asking too much from the front tire, and usually carry too much lean angle late in the corner.

Quote from: Court Jester on December 28, 2006, 08:18:23 AM
i coast from my turn in point to about the apex. give or take. depends on the turn. if it's a long turn i may have the throttle open just enough to keep steady speed.

How can you be getting any front end feel as you enter the corner if you are coasting? I normally have recieved most of my front end feedback and made neccesary changes by the time I get to the apex, it sounds like you are just starting to use the front tire at the apex. When someone passes you, where are they normally doing it, and how much faster are they going than you? I remember being at Barber for the national 4 hour with WERA, I was coming down the hill torwards the double apex left hander on my sv (last couple corners 11 or 13 or somthing?) thinking I was carrying enough speed when I realized i had the throttle shut and off the brakes at the apex, right then my friend Jeff Kramer came smoking past me on the outside by about 25 mph on his ZX10, from there on out I never went through that corner without input on the throttle/brake, and was able to pick up about a half second just due to the momentum it forced me to carry into the next section.

Quote from: JBraun on December 28, 2006, 11:58:41 AM
No, they don't. But charging corners is as bad as coasting. You wind up asking too much from the front tire, and usually carry too much lean angle late in the corner.

Thats why i said fast guys dont coast, not fast guys charge corners.


Also, charging a corner isnt always a bad thing, especially at a club riders level (which is generally far below the motorcycles and tires abilities). I can count more than a couple of times where I got into a corner thinking I was way to hot and wouldnt make it, next thing you know im carrying 10mph more corner speed and I make it right through the damn corner, then i go faster the next lap. So while I strongly support the idea of riding at 75 - 85 % to learn quicker rather than scaring the shit out of yourself all of the time, most of my enormous gains in speed have come from scaring the crap out of myself once, then realizing I just need to go faster through that corner next time.

+1.
I remember accidently using my 600's braking point on my 750 going into turn 1 at MAM. Holy shit! I not gonna make it! Wrong. I scared the crap out of myself but realized that thats how the fast guys do it every time. (I'm still not willing to do that on purpose. I'm comfortable with my 8/10 speed.)

Quote from: benprobst on December 28, 2006, 06:01:15 PM
How can you be getting any front end feel as you enter the corner if you are coasting? I normally have recieved most of my front end feedback and made neccesary changes by the time I get to the apex, it sounds like you are just starting to use the front tire at the apex. When someone passes you, where are they normally doing it, and how much faster are they going than you? I remember being at Barber for the national 4 hour with WERA, I was coming down the hill torwards the double apex left hander on my sv (last couple corners 11 or 13 or somthing?) thinking I was carrying enough speed when I realized i had the throttle shut and off the brakes at the apex, right then my friend Jeff Kramer came smoking past me on the outside by about 25 mph on his ZX10, from there on out I never went through that corner without input on the throttle/brake, and was able to pick up about a half second just due to the momentum it forced me to carry into the next section.

i'm still learning. that's why i'm here. but my balls have gotten considerably smaller after a few surgeries and a couple of broken bones, and a much lower level of balance my balls have gotten a good bit smaller.
i get passed from time to time. the top guys leave me, but i can hang well in the middle. i've been watching a few of my video's and i can see plain as day that my biggest issue bar none is where i put my weight and my head/shoulders.
i'll have a few schools next spring and with hall's bikes i should be able to step it up quite a bit. (knock on wood)

Im right there with ya man, still new to the sport and learning at a rapid pace at this point. im in a lucky position to have my dad and uncle who have in the neighborhood of 30 years of roadracing experience helping me, esentially allowing me to start out with a far larger tool box of knowledge than most, just trying to pass it on.  :thumb:

well pass it on this way man. i need it

Quote from: JBraun on December 22, 2006, 10:35:52 AM

It sounds like Farrell likes to trail brake really deep into corners, and he's fast.
Ed Key appears to be completely out of the brakes before he turns in, and he's also fast.

Appearances can sometimes be deceiving. I always trail brake. When teaching others I always stress the importance of trail braking.

The trick to using this technique is not to get in so deep as to hurt the drive off the turn.

Ed Key

Quote from: eeky on December 29, 2006, 09:09:15 AM
Appearances can sometimes be deceiving. I always trail brake. When teaching others I always stress the importance of trail braking.

The trick to using this technique is not to get in so deep as to hurt the drive off the turn.

Ed Key

Ahhh....  Whadda YOU know?

Quote from: eeky on December 29, 2006, 09:09:15 AM
Appearances can sometimes be deceiving. I always trail brake. When teaching others I always stress the importance of trail braking.

The trick to using this technique is not to get in so deep as to hurt the drive off the turn.
Ed Key

see Ed you are just to damn smooth for your own good. causing other people to think you arent trailbraking shame shame. I thought it was really strange when braun said that, i thought there was no way in hell you could be going that fast on a lightweight bike without trailbraking, anyway where's Farrel at? it about time for him to chime in with a page and a half post.

Interesting discussion.  In the Jan 07 issue of Motorcycle Consumer News there is a longish article on a similar topic - discussing the various approaches to late braking, braking deep, braking early, etc, in the context of street riding.  It was written by a former racer.  I'm still debating whether to post a letter to the editor about, as I thought it was unduly complicated, especially since the target audience for that mag is street riders.

Anyway, I was fortunate to get some instruction from Mr Key on trailbraking, specifically related to the transition, from brakes to gas.  Trick is to roll on the throttle while letting off the brake (I was a front braking trail braker).  This is fairly simple conceptually, but was something that was not obvious to me.  I now use it consistently, even on my Harley.

WOW this has been a warm and very informative :pop: winter so far,thanks tshort :thumb: for that one-i'm thinking there is some real advantage in lap time there! will raising idle smooth that out and make it easier?and is there a throttle assy that is more accurate less bulky than the stock SV 1st GEN w/flatsides that i could look into /others would attest to?- i am looking at that area now and got  a 19x20 brembo MC for that part of this brake/throttle roll on (simultaneously)  technique.(sp)  Anyone ? John in NJ

Quote from: catman on December 29, 2006, 05:37:49 PM
WOW this has been a warm and very informative :pop: winter so far,thanks tshort :thumb: for that one-i'm thinking there is some real advantage in lap time there! will raising idle smooth that out and make it easier?and is there a throttle assy that is more accurate less bulky than the stock SV 1st GEN w/flatsides that i could look into /others would attest to?- i am looking at that area now and got  a 19x20 brembo MC for that part of this brake/throttle roll on (simultaneously)  technique.(sp)  Anyone ? John in NJ

Hey where is my thanks John, I said to roll the throttle on as you release the brakes like a page ago, I see how it is, hahaha. anyway, are you having problems getting the set up perfect on you flatslides? it took me forever to get them perfect, but once I did it was worth the hours of work. There also is the option of running them without the throttle return cable, which will make for much smoother and easier application of the throttle, but will also present you with a better chance for the throttle sticking open, especially in extreme cases such as crashing. ohh yeah and Ill send you some pics of my superbike later today.

HEY yea Ben sorry-you all are overwhelming us noobers w great stuff- i know i am not alone in appreciation- my flatsides are hooked up well- Vally Racing and K3 saw to that- i am looking to buy a better than stock throttle assy that is more compact, with a smaller narrower collar to wrap my thumb over without hittin the stock kill switch,so i can hold throttle position easily while feedin in/out  the brake- i found smothing that may satisfy this ,need to look into it soon- all this while i have Doctors with 2 many opinions about my shoulder problem/possible upcoming surgery- a second opinion was a dangerous thing to extract-each time i go for another opinion, i get another opinion- like a merry go roung ride and now i am looking into the spring befor full recovery- its not stopping me from learning,and purchasing yet!Thanks - your explanations have been helpful,even if i'm too perced to pinpoint the source-

ha im just kidding with ya man, im sure a million people have said it before me anyway. John, what your tentative plan for racing this year?

so why's this thread died?
i got some good info out of it.
keep learning me some stuff guys/gals

The most important corner on any race track is the one before the longest straightaway - KR senior.

Sorry to get back late - ben, just hoping to get 3-5 weekends in at summit,point this season ,I  put alot into sv--6K this winter while out of work 6 mos i'm back off to work finally next week with a  still slightly dinged /getting better/shoulder -Having speedworks put on the ohlins/marvics,brembos ,was planning on a trip out to K3's and sportbike Italia because I want the slicks geo change to go right,but the situation demands a closer proximity and follow up if needed locally(3.5 hrs 0 to speedworks) 14hrs. to Chicago easily enough. Anyway at 51,and finally having a great bike(thanks K3) after hit and miss start a couple years , i intend to race as long as possible with all the help here i intend to do it as well as a partimer can. send those pics when u have time -  i cannot find them here in  this buncha folders and do want to see them-Thanks, John

Give me a few days or a week. I'll post more. Just really freakin busy lately trying to catch up before the spring rush flys in!

just didn't want it to die.
talk about set up, passing, body/form. whatever. as long as i keep leaning as much as i've learned in the past few pages i'm happy.

Alot to absorb,I'm lovin it too!Where else could you find this stuff? Now if there was just some sort of a site for mechanical/ setup taught by someone who articulates well and could make it  (easy to understand) somewhat more for the noobs (always gonna be one i think)- That would surely step up the learning curve like the above info has (thanks jason,ben,tz, tshort et al...for us here. Someone not just with a lifetime of trackside experience but one with the ability to understand the hurdles of folks' either just getting started ,or without real 9bottom line)sources of this info- up to those who just wanna understand it well.

i'll have to dig it up but i found a write up on suspen setup that was awesome. explained it really well and had tons of trouble shooting info. they made it a stickey on another website. i'll get it when i have time and post it up. but it's about 20 pages to print it out i think. i'll just throw up the link.

they it is. i end up printing it and giving it away at almost every track day or race. worked great for me though.


http://www.1000rr.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8387

Quote from: catman on December 29, 2006, 05:37:49 PMwill raising idle smooth that out and make it easier?

I used to do that on my 400 and carbed R6's.  Also helped to slightly reduce engine breaking.

Quote from: catman on December 29, 2006, 05:37:49 PMand is there a throttle assy that is more accurate less bulky than the stock SV 1st GEN w/flatsides that i could look into /others would attest to

Probably but I can't recommend a brand - not very familiar with the SV, sorry.

I know yoyodyne sells a trick throttle with the ability to vary cable pull (1/4, 1/5, etc..).  I know racing an SV some this year taught me a fair bit about keeping up corner speed etc.  I hated the long throw on the throttle though, but I mostly raced it for fun-I put a lot more work into the R6.

I also use a high idle on both the bikes-like Jason said it helps reduce engine braking, plus its a very cheap slipper clutch!  I don't have a lot of trouble with rear end chatter but bumping up the idle really smoothed it out.

the R6 throttle is actually the throttle alot of sv guys use. its shorter throw and works well.  :thumb: