Please, CCS licensed racers only.
Answer truthfully how much you are willing to spend to have electronic scoring at all CCS regionals.
(Since no two transponders have the same "signature", if you purchase one and then retire, you can pass it down for approximately 5 years from date of manufacturer.)
This was the number one request on last years rider survey and we want to be certain what you really want to see in 2003.
Thanks for your time and input.
I would think a combination of 1 and 2 would be worthwhile. Some of us may only attend 1 or 2 Nationals and the ability to rent a transponder would be more cost effective. While someone that attends all the Nationals would benefit from purchasing them.
Guess I am a dumb ass for not reading it correctly. For some reason I had Nationals on the mind. I would be willing to buy one, but still think a combination of rental and purchase to be the best option. Some people like me can only make 4 or 5 races in a year and rental may still make sense.
I voted buy my own but I race in the cmra and they supply them.
Right now I race at LRRS and we have electronic scoring already.
$25 per weekend seems kinda steep. At those rates I'd definitely buy the transponder myself (that's how I voted).
;D
I currently already have my own lap timer system that cost much more, but it will be good for CCS to keep tighter noose on who is where when that flag flies. I would purchase one , but they need to list times for riders maybe start doing timed qualification during practice to grid people . :o
I second what roadracer68 said. It would be nice if you could get all your lap times printed out, or maybe listed on a website where you could refernce them to see if you improved.
How is CCS looking at using electronic timing? Just for CCS use only, or would times be provided to the riders?
I have an AIM lap timer but I would gladly sell it and buy another. Either that or a rental would be nice too. If you amortize a timer over five years the rental would be super cheap!
Sorry, fouled up the whole deal! I didn't see the poll. I think raising the entry fees a total of $15 is a hot ticket. Thats 20 weekends before you equal buying one. Or The 300 clams and just pass it on.
I think the only way this will work is if EVERY bike has one and the only system that I see is to raise fees to pay for it or are you talking about REQUIRING people to rent or purcahse a transponder if they want to race?
Personally I think it would be better if CCS was responsible for the operation of the units good batteries/ function etc. that means no purchase and rental seems like a pain.
K.I.S.S.
I picked no change as I dont want to pay even more to race - the current system is flawed ( I placed 5 positions back from where I finished in a OHR race) but its only happened once so far.
Why not have transponders available for purchase/rent anyway ? (i.e rent out the endurance units for the day first come first serve), then people who want to pay extra for timing info can get it, just dont make it mandatory for scoring... ;D
I voted to buy, but I am assuming the timingsystem would be on for practice and even LP trackdays so it could replace a lap timing system. And I love the download of time data from the web idea.
$25 per weekend seems high. At 300$ per transponder, with a usable life as indicated by you of 5 years, and assuming each transponder can make it to 10 races/year, then even $15 would recoup your investment in 2 years time.
I would like timed qualifing from a practice to get the grids sorted out. Really just mad cuz i crashed in the two money classes and have to come from way behind due to the way it's done now. :)
First off, all practice times and race times would be available for each rider, that is just one side benefit for it. (Depending on how many riders actually came in and collected them, we would either print them all out, or have you turn in a request for times and then print them for you at the end of the day.)
One problem I see with trying to use times for qualifying is which bike are you on, 600 or 750? Does it have DOT's or Slicks? The variables that you would have to contend with would either eliminate practice as we know it, eliminate classes or have the GP and Superbike classes timed and SuperSport gridded by entry. It will be a daunting task to come up with a workable solution.
I am open to suggestions.
here are a couple of comments from my experience racing two years at lrrs with transponders. last season was my first year without a transponder.
i have come to realize that transponders are an enormous luxury. every practice and every race was printed out within the hour and pinned on a designated wall in the tech garage. some people had a bad habit of tearing out their times and making a mess of things, but in general the system worked. i always wondered why loudon had more expensive race entries (100 dollars for gtu, don't remember the sprints, but it was more than i am paying now at ccs midatlantic) i wonder if it had to do with the transponders.
you could either buy your transponder and charger or you could get one for the weekend and return it. i choose the latter. you would be forced to buy it when you either loose, crash, or break the transponder.
transponders are awesome, but i couldn't afford to buy two (2 people in my household that race) of them right now. maybe if you force me :P
corien
I think this sould be supplied by CCS at no additional cost to the racer. Almost all of the racers have a hard time paying for everything now. Race entry fees just went up within the last 2 years and rasing the cost will just make racing even more out of reach for the street rider that wants to start racing.
2 cents
BRG
You spend $300 on one, crash you first race out and destroy it! :( Pay a deposit, increase the fees on the first 2 races and have CCS responsible for them. Just my $.02.
I might be willing to go maybe $100 just to help offset your cost. But really it's only going to make things easier for you guys. So I think you have to ask yourself, is it worth it? I have someone there to take my times so I don't need it. What would be nice is being able to be more creative with our # plates and #s. More like world Superbike. Since you don't have to rely on seeing them as well. As for grids I think that would be to much trouble. You have to many classes to keep track of.
If everyone bought into the system, or we bought it and increased the fees, then being "creative" would be more acceptable AS LONG as the scorers could read it.
Get all the CCS racers you know to take this poll, I want/need the results buy the middle of May so we can decide what to do with the budget for 2003.
Thanks Y'all.
Well, I think it is difficult to supply the racers with the transponders free of charge at this point in time and is asking a little much from CCS to be honest. I also race AFM and I had to purchase the transponder for $100 which is less than they cost but I get my $100 back if I quit at some point. Having a better timing system is crucial to allot of racers out there. I am more concerned about accurate finishing positions than times although once you have thetransponder times are there either way ;) I would be willing to pay ~$100 for a specific numbered CCS transponder even for the 2-3 races I attend a year and I don't have tons of money either. If you cannot afford an extra $100 for a once off fee then chances are you really shouldn't be racing anyway cause all it takes is one little oopsie to cost you $1000!!
-Shane
I'm not a "licensed racer" (just a weekend staff member), so I can't vote ... but I think it would be great. We'd still have backup scorers doing it manually. More of you ought to vote on this topic! :-*
How do CRA and others do it?
I personally voted for the raising fee option. Depending how often and how many classes you race in whether this would be best for you or not. Personally if you were to buy the unit and it went bad or needed battery repacement then it would be on you. Granted the lifespan should be good on these units but I would prefer not having the added worry or expense if the unit died and would rather go back to the scoring tower and just let them hand me a replacement.
Kevin,
The first thing you need to do is to make scoring mandatory for one weekend for EVERY racer(and cornerworking too), then post the poll and see the answers. ;D
The nominal race fee increase is a good solution as the racer doesn't have to remember to bring it with them to the track or maintain the battery.
$25/weekend is really too high, and thus optional, and most racers won't participate. Including it in the fee makes it a bit more obligitory for the racer to participate.
Further, to be able to produce lap times for the riders is worth the small fee increase vs. begging your SO/parent/crew to get it right.
Steve Clark, #16Ex MA
CCS Scorer
TightSqueezeRacing.org
How 'bout a choice between buying it outright, and a rent-to-own type program. Another thing CCS (or someone?) could do that would make it a bit easier on the racer is to buy back old units, and sell used units at a cheaper price.
QuoteI would think a combination of 1 and 2 would be worthwhile. Some of us may only attend 1 or 2 Nationals and the ability to rent a transponder would be more cost effective. While someone that attends all the Nationals would benefit from purchasing them.
Guess I am a dumb ass for not reading it correctly. For some reason I had Nationals on the mind. I would be willing to buy one, but still think a combination of rental and purchase to be the best option. Some people like me can only make 4 or 5 races in a year and rental may still make sense.
Minimal increase in entry fees seems reasonable to me and got my vote.
The rental fee of $25 per event seems insane since most people run 3+ events per weekend. (or did you mean weekend?)
I thought there was another race org who made electronic scoring mandatory and charged riders $100/year for rental. CRA???
This would definitely be a plus for CCS though as scoring takes too long and can be subjective. Plus, there might be the possibility that results could be posted on the CCS site in a timely manner.
The results thus-far are coming up on the website pretty quickly, but there have been many errors (2001 results mixed with 2002) and the overall calculations have not been made since the first race.
What a shame. I really enjoy racing. Unfortunately my discretionary funds only allow me to run 3 to 4 races a season on an old pile. Coupled with another required piece of equipment that is exposed and easily damaged.............maybe I'll have to stick to Pridmore schools and forego the racing.
Particularly since the very first ever CCS trackday cost me over a grand when a moron racer needed to win his practice session so bad he torpedoed me in a corner that folks just don't pass in, hence I didn't even make the remaining race weekend. Top that off with having to replace a $300 transponder.........
Sigh.........
Here is the response we recieved from the FUSA scoring team, as we are using them at the remaining CMRA events and our racers had similar questions regarding durabilty. oops this is an AMB system; the DBcom system I know is not as durable as what Judy indicates the AMB is unsure what type is being considered. We have been using the Db com for a number of years for our endurance series and they have proved fairly robust and only about 1-2 a year are damaged, but very few have been destroyed in the 6 plus years we have used tehm
The transponders are very durable. It is almost impossible to break them. They are water and in most
cases fire proof. They do not need to
be placed in any special bag because of weather conditions.
We did have a situation at Daytona this spring where a rider crashed and his transponder was left on the
track. Generally this is no problem but
whoever found it decided to do some R&D work. They removed the cases and found they could not see
the board and battery. They then
left the transponder in the scoring building at turn 1. In that case if we knew who took it apart they would
have been asked to pay for recasing
which is about $50.
The cases do get scuffed or cracked on occasion. We do not have them recased unless they are damaged
to the point they cannot be put back
in the charging cases or the tabs on one end or the other are broken off.
We have not had any destroyed to the point of having to replace them. As an example a "Main Tainer" ran
over one at a Dirt Track race. It
cracked the cases slightly. We put the same transponder right back on the bike it came off of. Just a note,
the reason it came off the bike to
begin with is that the rider did not have the extra zip tie on that is necessary in Dirt Track.
It's rare that a transponder is lost. The corner and saftey workers generally do a great job of finding them
if they come off when the bikes
crash. In the event that they can't find it we will send out a search party to recover it. At the FUSA
national races they get sent in with the
crash truck.
Sometimes we have riders who leave with them still attached to their bikes. We contact those riders and
have them ship them back to us. Our
name and address is on them.
To replace a transponder is $300. To recase it if the tabs are broken off is $50. If the battery has to be
replaced because the charging points
are destroyed it is $80.
We have never had to replace a transponder because it was destroyed.
We have 3-5 at the most recased every year.
Only one battery has been replaced in three years because the charging points were damaged.
I hope this answers your questions. Your riders are more than welcome to email or call me anytime.
Judy Horn
Mirage scoring/timing
If any of you want to come play this year the CMRA is supsidizing the transponder cost and the events are being run at standard CCS rates for the rest of the season.
As someone who runs 7 - 10 classes per race weekend, 12+ weekends per year, I'd definately appreciate the option of buying. Increasing the fees $5.00 per class, would cost me a minimum of $420 each year. Renting would cost me a minimum of $300 each year. A one time $300 purchase option (for me at least) would be by far the most cost effective.
I voted to buy your own transponder, but would also like for others to be able rent that only participate in a few events a year.
My first responce would be to say thats a great idea,My second thought is that we all complain about the cost now and just tell someone that to race they must buy a 300.00 transponder to be scored.People get-a-grip.
Leon
So it's simple. Have the option of buying your own transponder or paying for it in the increased entry fee.
It'd be a simple box on the entry form which indicates "I have my own transponder" and the entry folks could easily calculate the difference.
It wouldn't be that difficult to sustain a 'dual' option.
It seems to me that if CCS converts to electronic scoring then it would take less human effort/resources to handle the scoring tasks. Therefore the way I see it, the cost should be offset by less hourly wage staff on hand to man a particular event. If someone got serious and did a cost benefit analysis we may see an opportunity to drop the staff significantly and who knows maybe even reduce the entry fees? ;D
Kirk J. Right
Right Racing
Charlotte, NC
CCS # 328
I also voted to buy my own, but I already own mine since I used to race with GLRRA. I bought mine for 80 bucks used. I am sure people can find them out there cheaper than 300. Or maybe do a bulk buy and get a discount.
Saba
Back in the day (2 years ago) before moving to CA, I raced LRRS. They required transponders for practices and races. I thought it was a good idea. I rented them and was always afraid of destroying one in a crash, but having read the note from Judy Horn, I think it's a pretty minimal risk. Racing is expensive in general, as a lot of people have already said, and a one-time $300 fee or increasing registration fees a bit is really not that bad.
Prior to this past weekend at Summit, I felt like the manual scoring system was fine--I'd never had any problems with the system, so I wasn't interested in paying a penny more for a transpoder. As a result of a red flag very late in the GT Lights race, however, the results for the race didn't get posted until the end of the day, and they were wrong. Whole portions of the field were incorrectly ahead of others, a lapped rider was in the top-3, and a top 3 rider was back in 12th. So the results were protested. The revised version wasn't put up until the following day, and they were again wrong, this time affecting me personally as well as the guy who actually won the race. So they were protested again. An hour later, the results were again revised, with the real winner getting his win, me getting my correct position, but the guy behind me now displaced to an incorrect position. At this point it was advised that due to the confusion of the red flag and significant lap traffic, the 3rd version was set in stone and no further changes would be made. Basically, the absence of electronic scoring cost everyone headaches, the officials and scorers most of all, and one racer some money (and a bigger plaque.)
This isn't a knock on the scorers--I wouldn't/couldn't do that job. I can barely keep track of one bike when spectating let alone the whole field, in lap traffic, then throw in a red flag. I understand the officials were up into the late hours trying to sort out the results and know they did the best they could. Now that this has affected me directly, I'm all in favor of switching to electronic scoring (by the next event ;D) and have voted accordingly. Personally, I'd rather buy my own transponder as the long-term expense over a full season or two will be less than a flat increase to each of the entry fees. I hope this will be an option--the fees are hand written on the entry form, so it's obvious they're manually calculated. Transponder owners pay one way, renters another.
Blue skys!!