Motorcycle Racing Forum

Which class would you cut to enhance others?

I vote GP, but allow 2 stroke 250's to run in LWSB.

The question is, what will the extra time be used for. Hopefully a qualifying session for all SB races. Not just one or 2 but all 3 superbike series. Lightweight, Middleweight and Heavyweight.

Realistically you're not going to get a qualifying class for each series.  If qualifying was used, it would have to be for a specific race or a 'blanket' type qualifying which your 1 qualification counted for your races in that bike class.

Quote from: Jeff on November 02, 2006, 04:54:54 PM
Realistically you're not going to get a qualifying class for each series.  If qualifying was used, it would have to be for a specific race or a 'blanket' type qualifying which your 1 qualification counted for your races in that bike class.

if qualifying was used.... how would we police the restrictions on qualifying... say someone uses their superbike to qualify for a SS race.

i vote to qualify for the gt races, grid by points, and combine the gp and sb classes

I vote GP.  We still need Superbike for moded bikes and slicks.

Quote from: kylbie on November 02, 2006, 05:11:38 PM
if qualifying was used.... how would we police the restrictions on qualifying... say someone uses their superbike to qualify for a SS race.

If we do qualifying for superbike then it won't matter what bike they use as long as its the right size motor.

I say we need SB  for MFR contingency...  GP though...  How many GP bikes would not be able to run in SB?

Quote from: Jeff on November 02, 2006, 04:54:54 PM
Realistically you're not going to get a qualifying class for each series.  If qualifying was used, it would have to be for a specific race or a 'blanket' type qualifying which your 1 qualification counted for your races in that bike class.

What do you mean?

If they cut out 3 races (LWGP, MWGP, and HWGP) why wouldn't there be enough time to run qualifying for each Superbike race (LWSB, MWSB and HWSB) in place of each GP race?

How long does a typical GP sprint take to run?

How long would a typical qualifying session run?

I'm betting about the same time.

None of the above. I would cut the ultralightweight stuff due to it's lack of entries. there wouldn't be as much of a loss of revenue.

Also instead of timed qualifying which take up way too much time I would rather see heat races. Takes less time and though you may think it would be hairball remember, if you don't finish the heat race you don't race or start up front in the final.

the UL stuff is pretty much a wash because they combine like 6 classes in one race anyhow..

heat races would be interesting..

Quote from: grasshopper on November 02, 2006, 06:33:45 PM


How long does a typical GP sprint take to run?

How long would a typical qualifying session run?

I'm betting about the same time.

Actually qualifying for ULGP Ex takes longer than the race itself ironically.

Personal opinion...
Yet again....
If you allow GP bikes into a Superbike race, then its a GP race.
There is little room to argue this point.
Simply put, Drop Superbike, as GP rules allow open Mods and slicks as it is.
And no one gets left out...
Or just freaking call it Superbike GP, so everyone can have the name.

XIII

P.s. CCS has said blankly, they will not have qualifing.
I would like to see a heat race format though.
I would even give up the fight for GTs if there was a two (or more) race heat format put in place.

GP includes Superbikes.  So, eliminate Superbike.  Superbikes will be in GP anyway.

Contingency will follow where it's needed.  The manufacturers don't care, call it production, supersport, superstreet, grand prix, superbike, etc.  It has a place.

There are 6 GP classes and 10 Superbike classes...

HWSB can be absorbed into ULGP, but ultra light superbike can't be absorbed anywhere.  I don't know what ramification that would have though.  How many people would it affect and could they find something else to run?

But it doesn't really make financial sense to drop the GP classes... take a look at the results and start counting the #'s in the GP classes.  CCS is a business right? and the GP classes are making money...

If anything get it would be financially ideal to get rid of the classes with the smallest turnout (and I know I'm going to get flamed for this), like  ULWSB, 125GP and...........F40 / F40 lightweight.

Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on November 02, 2006, 07:24:46 PM
Actually qualifying for ULGP Ex takes longer than the race itself ironically.

Lets be for real Rob. The guys that know what they are doing need "3" laps tops for qualifying. 1 lap for warm up, the good hard lap, and a cool down. If you fuck up on the 2nd, you still have the 3rd. It, doesn't take 15 min. to qualify.

How many people actualy mod thier bike to the extent that GP alows? 

Quote from: Super Dave on November 02, 2006, 08:07:20 PM
GP includes Superbikes.  So, eliminate Superbike.  Superbikes will be in GP anyway.

Contingency will follow where it's needed.  The manufacturers don't care, call it production, supersport, superstreet, grand prix, superbike, etc.  It has a place.

Ditto.

I'll add that we should whack all Heavyweight (750) classes... sorry to the few of you who own a 750, but sadly it's a dying breed.  I'd be willing to be that the majority of entries in those classes are 600s anyway.

Quote from: h2o_motorsports on November 03, 2006, 12:58:37 AM
How many people actualy mod thier bike to the extent that GP alows? 

Almost no one.  But Supersport rules are selectively restrictive, making many lightly modded bikes fall into the catagory of superbike.  Add cams?  Install brembo calipers?  Change the forks on an SV?  Add flatslides to an SV or older carburated four?  Decide you prefer the grip and wear of slicks?  Any one of those mods puts you in Superbike.
Honestly, I always felt that Supersport was a wash, at least in Lightweight.  Even Ed Key says his supremely modded SS bike is incapable of winning against his fastest Superbike competition.  Since I could only afford one bike, I ran GT, GP, and Superbike.  I would think that the differences become smaller as displacement rises, but still....
So Supersport is the class that makes the least sense.  "Wait!" you scream.  "What about the entry level guys?  Drop Supersport, and the guy with the stock bike has no competitive class to run!"  Bullshit.  A truly stock bike is wildly outclassed even in Supersport.  Let's look at what time and money can build in a Supersport legal package:

Bluprinted motor
Shaved cylinder head
Degreed cams
A cartridge kit in the front forks.
A racing shock
Full exhaust, reprogrammer, electric shifter
Carbon fiber and titanium wherever possible and legal

All this could double the price of a new bike.  How "stock" is it at that point?  Once you've modded a bike to this level, about all you can do to make it a Superbike is to add cams and slicks, which are ironically the two simplest and most cost-effective ways to improve a stock bike's performance.  So who are we kidding?  What is the reason for Supersport at its current level of legal modification?  I say either drop Supersport  entirely or seriously rewrite (restrict) the Supersport rulebook.

Quote from: Jeff on November 02, 2006, 09:58:11 PM
There are 6 GP classes and 10 Superbike classes...

HWSB can be absorbed into ULGP, but ultra light superbike can't be absorbed anywhere.  I don't know what ramification that would have though.  How many people would it affect and could they find something else to run?

Well, there's money to be lost for CCS with HWSB going away .  Make HWGP.  That would also allow TZ250's another place to run.  ULWSB...ULWGP?

Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on November 03, 2006, 06:16:06 AM
Almost no one.  But Supersport rules are selectively restrictive, making many lightly modded bikes fall into the catagory of superbike.  Add cams?  Install brembo calipers?  Change the forks on an SV?  Add flatslides to an SV or older carburated four?  Decide you prefer the grip and wear of slicks?  Any one of those mods puts you in Superbike...

  A truly stock bike is wildly outclassed even in Supersport.  Let's look at what time and money can build in a Supersport legal package:

Bluprinted motor
Shaved cylinder head
Degreed cams
A cartridge kit in the front forks.
A racing shock
Full exhaust, reprogrammer, electric shifter
Carbon fiber and titanium wherever possible and legal

All this could double the price of a new bike.  How "stock" is it at that point?  Once you've modded a bike to this level, about all you can do to make it a Superbike is to add cams and slicks, which are ironically the two simplest and most cost-effective ways to improve a stock bike's performance.  So who are we kidding?  What is the reason for Supersport at its current level of legal modification?  I say either drop Supersport  entirely or seriously rewrite (restrict) the Supersport rulebook.

I've won races on bikes with stock motors, bodywork, a rear shock, and only mildly modded forks.  I've won races with stock forks.

No, supersport isn't stock, but in superbike you're gonna need all the stuff you say you have in supersport, which not everyone has, in addition to the things that you say are needed in superbike.  That's additional cost, I have to admit.

Some things are just not absolutely necessary either.  Even Larry Denning doesn't use a shifter cut out. 

Drop the GT classes and add $$ and laps, or $$ and practice, or $$ and Qs to the EX classes.

Damn you guys! This thread isn't going anywhere. No matter what someone is going to get pissed however the rules turn out.   :whine:
I say we just race scooters!

Oh wait I have a new class we can add to the series if you want to figure out one to eliminate for this one!

After Daytona this year I had an idea to change Sprint racing. I think it really should be sprint racing!

OK here are the rules for the middleweight class:
Any bike is allowed! Plus the race is only 1 LAP!
Bike must be weighed in and weigh no less than 360 lbs.
Bike must have 2 wheels only.
It cannot be running during the race. Machine must only move by the power of the rider pushing the bike. Rollerblades not allowed. Must wear offical roadracing boots.
Full riding gear must be worn.
The object of the race is to see who can push their motorcycle around the track 1 lap & win.
Grids will be set by qualifiying 40 yard sprinting times with full leathers on.

Lightweight class is sames rules but minimum of 250lbs.
Heavyweight is same rules but minimum of 450lbs.

This is a class were the lightweight guys will most likely have the best lap times!
All supersport machines must retain the original bearings in the wheels.
Maximum air pressure must be 30psi. Must have fully functional brakes installed front & rear.
Chain must installed and must be of at least a 520 pitch.
Clutch plates must still be in the bike along with the transmission. All pieces must be original and unmodified.

One rule of the race will be that the bike can be in any gear but neutral. The cluch can be pulled in.
We will see who has the best training program!
Class payout structure should be a purse of $2000 and pays back to 10th!
:lmao:
C'mon I think it's a go! I'm practicing tonight!

OK, here is my .02;
 
(1) drop both GT and GP in order to lengthen the sprints with current class structure,
(2) add one middleweight twins class w/SB rules to get the larger capacity air-cooled twins out of LW & add 250GP bikes to this new MW Twins class,
(3) combine races when entries are low such as ULW or F40/LWF40 (as is done currently),
(4) hold two short qualifing sessions for the heaviest entry classes, or hold two short heat races for the heaviest entry classes; one each for odd/even #s
(5) tighten the Supersport rules and relax the Superbike rules to better separate veteran racers (who have accumulated more & better equipment) from the new racers just starting out
(6) go to a FL style schedule for the poor turnout tracks (practice/track day on Saturday, races on Sunday)
(7) offer vouchers as incentives to licensed racers who get their friends/acquaintances to apply for new racer licenses
(8) consider adding a showcase "Shootout" race, open to all, to end each weekend with vouchers as purse with a recommended minimum lap time to guide potential entrants

Short background on myself, long-time board lurker, racer since '02 both w/ CCS, ASRA and WERA in FL and SE regions;  CCS AM Nat'l Champ in '04; WERA AM Regional Champ in '04; mulitple time top 10 finisher in ASRA Thunderbike.

Thanks for listening,
Dave
CCS/ASRA Ex#505

Quote from: Jason748 on November 03, 2006, 12:08:34 AM
If anything get it would be financially ideal to get rid of the classes with the smallest turnout (and I know I'm going to get flamed for this), like  ULWSB, 125GP and...........F40 / F40 lightweight.

As far as F-40 classes, the grids are actually growing, because it's a place where the...ahem...older racer can compete and feel like they're not going to get taken out by the 20 yr old testosterone boy on a kamikaze machine.

ULWSB is more of a toss up, because I think they keep it in to help out the budget racer or transitioning racer, but if the grids were shrinking or had plateaued, I'd agree they could lose the class. 125s need a place to safely run, and while they could compete in some LW classes, they are a bit of a bastard child, so by combining them with another class, they really don't take up any additional time during the weekend.

The best thing would be to restructure the GP/Superbike classes to streamline the schedule. Most guys do not run multiple bikes, and the few that do would not have a huge problem configuring their machines to tech through any new class development.


Oh, and I'm all for the SpeedTech spint format. :biggrin: The results should be used as qualifying for all of your entered races.

Quote from: spyderchick on November 03, 2006, 10:16:27 AM125s need a place to safely run, and while they could compete in some LW classes, they are a bit of a bastard child, so by combining them with another class, they really don't take up any additional time during the weekend.

We're already combined with another class on the track :) ..I say ditch the redundant classes (combine SBK & GP) and that'll force bigger grids, and raise the laps and entry fees.

I'd say Math class, use to cut English but it was to hard to communicate, then spell check came along.

Quote from: grasshopper on November 03, 2006, 12:34:35 AM
Lets be for real Rob. The guys that know what they are doing need "3" laps tops for qualifying. 1 lap for warm up, the good hard lap, and a cool down. If you fuck up on the 2nd, you still have the 3rd. It, doesn't take 15 min. to qualify.

Really Nick you should come out to a corner during it ands see exactly how many riders are out for the whole 15 min. Some some in to the pit road to adjust their suspension and head back out and come back in and head back out. I seriously doubt that these guys are gonna wanna run 3 laps in 1 big group to qualify.

Seriously, qualifying isnt gonna happen. Hell ULGP Ex qualifying may be eliminated from what I've been hearing.

Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on November 03, 2006, 09:40:28 PM
Really Nick you should come out to a corner during it ands see exactly how many riders are out for the whole 15 min. Some some in to the pit road to adjust their suspension and head back out and come back in and head back out. I seriously doubt that these guys are gonna wanna run 3 laps in 1 big group to qualify.

Seriously, qualifying isnt gonna happen. Hell ULGP Ex qualifying may be eliminated from what I've been hearing.

Well, when you get an average of 10 bikes on the grid what good is being on "pole" anyway?

To the question of who mods their bikes to the extent of the rules in superbike:

I'd have to say that my bike is close.  200 HP, trick stuff here and there, blah, blah, etc.  It has nothing to do with making me go around a track any faster ... hell, half the time I DNF or DNS because it's so high maintenance.  The fact is I enjoy designing, manufacturing, and generally tweaking things almost as much as racing.  The feeling when everything comes together and I get around quickly is more than worth it to me, but I think I'm very much in the minority.

Quote from: triumfh on November 03, 2006, 10:01:00 AM
OK, here is my .02;
 
(1) drop both GT and GP in order to lengthen the sprints with current class structure

Dave, then you advocate that there should be no place for grand prix only machines like RS/TZ125's, RS/TZ250's?

Quote from: ecumike on November 03, 2006, 04:21:14 PM
We're already combined with another class on the track :) ..I say ditch the redundant classes (combine SBK & GP) and that'll force bigger grids, and raise the laps and entry fees.

+1

As I posted in the other thread:

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on November 04, 2006, 12:01:56 AM
MotoGP and AMA Pro racing have great influence on bikes sold, just look at when the 600's and 1000's got so popular. Now MotoGP is going back to 800cc bikes. Track after track here in the US is having to make changes just to accomodate the 1000's and tires are being pushed to their threshold (and wearing out at incredibly fast rates on the 1000's). There have been rumors of the AMA Superbike class going back to Heavy Weight class bikes in the near future - following suit of the MotoGP. I'm not so sure that eliminating the (2) Heavy Weight classes is going in the direction that racing is going. Being someone that is over 200 lbs a 600 just doesn't work for me, to get the same power to weight ratio the majority of the 600 racers have I need a bit more Hp, but not excessive like on a 1000.

I pointed out before the 2006 season started that due to flaws in the new points system the majority of people who would get Top 10 plates would be the riders in the biggest classes due to how high their performance index is when finishing lower in the results as compared to those in smaller classes finishing better, in other words Middle Weight riders would have a huge advantage. The only exception to this would be riders who are constant podium finishers and run at least 6 classes, this is the reason Ed Key was able to get a Top 10 plate, but also the reason he got screwed out of a #1 plate. Jump forward to the final Top 10 points in the MW region and 7 rode Middle Weight bikes, 2 of them on Light Weight bikes and 1 on a Heavy Weight bike (riding only a Unlimited bike is statistically impossible to get a Top 10 plate when the max number of classes you can run is 4). Elimination of even 1 Lightweight class and 1 Heavy Weight class would mean that most likely every rider in the Top 10 points championship in 2007 will be on a Middle Weight bike - if that's the case you might as well change it to the "Middle Weight Points Championship" so it accurately depicts what it really would be.

Super Dave,

hmm, well, I hadn't really thought of it like that.  I guess the 125 GP race would go away.  And I would hate to pull the rug from under racers dedicated to that class. 

I dunno, it seems to me these GP bikes already race production bikes in all other classes currently.  In ULWSB I see the 125s mixed with the FZR400s, EX500s, Hawks, small Ducs, etc.  I can honestly say  the GP125s are the minority in this class in the SE & FL.  However, I haven't taken a count.  That's not to say they aren't the majority in other regions.

In LWGP the 250s are outnumbered two to one by SVs, a/c Ducks, Buells, etc.  The Aprilia RSs used to be prominent but they seem to be fading away.  So the true GP style bikes don't race alone here either. 

With the exception of the 125s, if Superbike were rolled into GP or vice versa, wouldn't the GP bikes still be racing against the same bikes as now? 

I'm sure there are others out there with a more intimate knowledge of the entry numbers/bike types nationwide who would be better able to gauge the impact than I can.

I see a number of advantages in a contraction of classes including lengthening the sprints and simplifying the race day schedule.  How to go about the contraction seems to be the "sticky wicket".

Thanks for the chance to be heard,
Dave 

Quote from: triumfh on November 04, 2006, 01:24:40 PM
.......if Superbike were rolled into GP or vice versa, wouldn't the GP bikes still be racing against the same bikes as now? 

+1

and check the poll results if you're not sure.

;)

Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on November 04, 2006, 12:44:25 PM
MotoGP and AMA Pro racing have great influence on bikes sold, just look at when the 600's and 1000's got so popular. Now MotoGP is going back to 800cc bikes. Track after track here in the US is having to make changes just to accomodate the 1000's and tires are being pushed to their threshold (and wearing out at incredibly fast rates on the 1000's). There have been rumors of the AMA Superbike class going back to Heavy Weight class bikes in the near future - following suit of the MotoGP. I'm not so sure that eliminating the (2) Heavy Weight classes is going in the direction that racing is going. Being someone that is over 200 lbs a 600 just doesn't work for me, to get the same power to weight ratio the majority of the 600 racers have I need a bit more Hp, but not excessive like on a 1000.

Well, the 1000's became really more popular when they became lighter.  But the AMA didn't cater to the 1000cc fours until much later in AMA Superbike.  FX for 1000's existed before that.  Before that, there was the Three Hour Challenge.

Similarly, 600's were popular before the AMA had 600 Supersport.  FJ and FZ600's, Ninja 600's predate AMA 600 Supersport which started in 1987.  750 Supersport arrived in 1988. 

Sizes have been up and down.  CB900's, KZ1000's, and GS1000's were tire eaters, as were TZ750's, et al. 

In the early 90's, there was talk of Superbike becoming a 600 class.  I have heard that also recently, but that was put to rest recently when the AMA dedicated a set of rules for Superbike to be 1000cc fours for a set period.  That has resulted in, first, Kawasaki finally committing to AMA Superbike and, finally, Yamaha.

Does AMA Racing and FIM racing influence sales?  I think more cruisers are sold than sportbikes.  But sportbikes are certainly a niche market that needs to be coddled.

Yes, just combine SBK and GP, so 125s & 250s would race in the new LW combined class.
And yes, in the GTL and LWGP we race pretty much the same people, so I don't think combining SBK would be much difference.

Don't know if this has been posted already or not, because I don't have the desire to read every post in the thread but.....

For those who want eliminate the SB class, why would you want to get rid of one of the classes that manufactures actually pay contigency for?  If something needs to go, why not the one with the least $$$ for the racers?

I posted it before.

The manufacturers will figure it out.

They have in the past when different organizations have different names for various classes.

I agree Dave, ECUMike - you could call the class 'SuperGP' or something and the people paying $$ will know that the class is a modified SBK. As long as there is a class to run, it doesn't matter what it's name is. Of course I'm also for longer than 6-8 laps, I would love to see 10-12 lap sprints and 15-20 laps GTs.

Quote from: Jeff on November 02, 2006, 04:23:10 PM
Which class would you cut to enhance others?

Jeff,

Will you just leave the classes and schedule alone already.  I really don't get it, everything runs pretty damn good for the majority and eliminating classes is just going to cause more back to back races for people.  Everyone currently has at least one class (if not more) they can be competitive in no matter what you ride and you can enjoy the rest of the weekend racing you butt off - what more could anyone want? (that's a question that I'm not looking for an answer on)

Eliminate Formula 40...















:biggrin: :whine: :kicknuts:

Quote from: Super Dave on November 06, 2006, 03:41:10 PM
Eliminate Formula 40...
Why Dave? Are you upset you couldn`t get a top five in the midwest region in F40?















:biggrin: :whine: :kicknuts:

LOL!  I'm not old enough.  They check ID's.

Remember when it was Formula 39 1/2? :ass:

Quote from: Super Dave on November 06, 2006, 03:41:10 PM
Eliminate Formula 40...

:biggrin: :whine: :kicknuts:

I'll retire.

I would cut math class.  The only thing I need to survive is knowing where the decimal point should be. 

well it wouldnt let me vote..   but GP  class.     

Come on  who among us has a gp bike ?

Quote from: Steviebee on November 08, 2006, 11:14:45 PM
well it wouldnt let me vote..   but GP  class.    

Come on  who among us has a gp bike ?

I do and it is awesome. I have learnt that I am just truely learning to ride.

Horse is dead... this thread served its purpose.