Motorcycle Racing Forum

So let's hear it.

If the GT classes were dropped to allow all other classes to be lengthened to say 12 laps, would you pay $100 per class to enter the new races?

If not, how much would you be willing to pay?

No, I like the GT races.  I look at them as a way to get up to speed on a track that I haven't been to before or to refine my skills on corners that I find difficult then put it to use in the sprints.

I think Superbike and GP should be combined and heavyweight and unlimited should be combined to allow for more practice time in the AM.

Keep GT and drop either Superbike or GP. GT races are the only class that CCS runs that is even close to the time on track of a national level/pro race.

Quote from: spyderchick on November 01, 2006, 03:52:16 PM
Keep GT and drop either Superbike or GP. GT races are the only class that CCS runs that is even close to the time on track of a national level/pro race.

+1

The GT races are the most fun and the best deal for track time.  If changing anything, combine classes that are the same like superbike and GP.

Question before I vote.

So you are saying 100 bucks for the 1st race and how much for second, 3rd and there after?

4 more laps isn't much.

Personally, I'd like to see qualifying for certain classes. Like do qualifying for Thunderbike, a MW class and a Heavyweight class to grid riders on how fast they are not when they registered.

Here's the overall deal...

When costs go up for a company, revenue has to go up as well.  Find a creative way to make that happen!  The only 2 ways it can happen are for the number of entries to go up, or for the cost of the entries to go up.

The largest complaint I've heard so far on the board is that there aren't enough laps in a sprint race...  Adding laps requires creating a gap in the schedule.  The only way that can be done is to remove something.  Well, if you remove something you need to offset the loss by a gain elsewhere.  How do you make that happen?

Do it by dumping the redundant classes! Superbike and GP?  Heavyweight and Unlimited?  Why?

No way...

I like the GT Races...8 Laps is enuf for the sprints IMO.....

Quote from: grasshopper on November 01, 2006, 04:11:47 PM
Question before I vote.

So you are saying 100 bucks for the 1st race and how much for second, 3rd and there after?

4 more laps isn't much.

Personally, I'd like to see qualifying for certain classes. Like do qualifying for Thunderbike, a MW class and a Heavyweight class to grid riders on how fast they are not when they registered.

+1     Lets have qualifying for at least MW supersport. That seems to be the race with the largest field every weekend. I don't know how many of you(if any) attended the "superbike shootout" at MAM a few weeks ago, but the qualify concept was fun, and add to the enjoyment of te weekend.

My quick opinion is...

Cost of racing is why most people back out of the sport.
Raising the enterie fees isn't going to help that at all.

If CCS is looking for more revenue, they need to find ways to attract more people to race.

For example, offer something inbetween Am and Ex... Like a Jr EX rank... Not to open that can of worms...

Regardless, I only really like running the GT races.
In my opinion, they need to drop either GP or Superbike for MW HW and Unl. I mean come on... when was the last GP bike raced that was only legal in the GP class?


XIII

I know that I hear from a lot of am's that they get pretty tired even in 8 laps.  I think it might turn away some potential newbies if the races were that long.  I know my first couple weekends it seemed like the GT races lasted a month lol!

-Nick

Drop Lightweight GP, Middleweight GP and Heavyweight GP.

Have Qualifying for all Superbike classes. But still allow 250 GP bikes to run in LWSB. Cutting the GP races out screw the 250 2 smokers in Lightweight.

Qualifying would kick ass! Or have heats, but that would take even longer. Just qualifying works. Yea yea yea DO IT!!! :cheers:

nope not gt. drop gp and open superbike to gp machines. then have 8 lap sprints and 2 or 3 "shootout" style 12 lappers!!!(small purse would be nice too!) :thumb:

Quote from: robsob on November 01, 2006, 08:42:37 PM
nope not gt. drop gp and open superbike to gp machines. then have 8 lap sprints and 2 or 3 "shootout" style 12 lappers!!!(small purse would be nice too!) :thumb:

I agree

Quote from: spyderchick on November 01, 2006, 03:52:16 PM
Keep GT and drop either Superbike or GP. GT races are the only class that CCS runs that is even close to the time on track of a national level/pro race.

I agree.  It's the only place I know of where a rider gets a chance to prepare ones self and equipment for the length of a national race.

Sooo instead of making more money for CCS you guys are proposing to drop/combine classes, which would lose CCS revenue.

Or are you saying you would you pay the $100 fee for longer races with that proposal, keeping the GT races?

No one said this sport was cheap, and no one says you have to do 8 races in a weekend... I mean, if the entry fee went up a couple bucks, it's called life, inflation, cost of living.. whatever you want to call it.  Ya gotta pay to play.   You're willing to pay increased prices for motorcycles, parts, leathers, etc, etc, but ya don't wanna pay extra $ for a stupid race entry fee??

Also, we're talking about CCS, regional racing, not National stuff. They have a national series.. it's called ASRA, if you want national-style races and lengths.  And for those of you good enough, there's another series, it's called the AMA.....

For example.. I want to race in a national style race.. so I also race the USGPRU, which is a national series... not try to turn a regional series into a national series.  I think it should just be a stepping stone/practice for national series.. not turn into it.

Well said Mike. But maybe some of these guys would like to pay SCCA race fees. Formula 2000 is around $775 for TWO RACES (1 sat and one sun at most events). Or maybe Imsa ones? IMSA Lites is $950 for ONE race, ALMS is $3700-7500 PER RACE for a P class car and $3200-7000 per GT class car depending on venue and duration.

I say get rid of either superbike or GP.  And lengthen the sprint races that way!!  The GT races are a good way to have lots of race style track time.  That is unless there is a red flag.

Jeff, have you considered the number of racers that only show up on Sunday and that the GT races are on Saturday? You would have to move 4 of the 12 lap sprint races to Saturday and that would probably cost you in entrys for those 4 classes.

I like the GT races and as mentioned, this is club racing, I think the sprints are long enough.

Quote from: YellowDesmo998 on November 01, 2006, 04:29:26 PM
Do it by dumping the redundant classes! Superbike and GP?  Heavyweight and Unlimited?  Why?

+1... been sayin' that for a long time.  Not just redundant either, how about unused?  Four bike grids shouldn't be considered a race.  I like the GT races, but I'd rather drop the GT's, drop the unused and / or redundant classes and go to the FL region schedule.  That's practice on Saturday, race on Sunday and hopefully this would allow qualifying.  Races are supposed to be important, I know it's great to do 5 races for track time, but concentrating more on one longer one is more inline with pure racing... no do overs.

I agree that there should be a 'showcase' class with qualifying and a few more laps (say 12).  the question would be, if that happened, would the grids increase?

Quote from: ecumike on November 01, 2006, 11:14:55 PM
Sooo instead of making more money for CCS you guys are proposing to drop/combine classes, which would lose CCS revenue.

Or are you saying you would you pay the $100 fee for longer races with that proposal, keeping the GT races?

No one said this sport was cheap, and no one says you have to do 8 races in a weekend... I mean, if the entry fee went up a couple bucks, it's called life, inflation, cost of living.. whatever you want to call it.  Ya gotta pay to play.   You're willing to pay increased prices for motorcycles, parts, leathers, etc, etc, but ya don't wanna pay extra $ for a stupid race entry fee??

I think rising the race entry fees, in this case by $25 isn't the answer.  CCS needs to find out why race entries are dwindling.  Save some money and don't run the tracks were turnout is historically low.  Do some research and find out why other race organizations are growing while CCS isn't.

I personally prefer CCS over the others for many reasons that I won't go into detail here.  Do I boycott the other race organization?  No, I still race regionals with them but not with the dedication that I put towards CCS.

Spend a few $$$ during the off-season to find out what will attract more people to the CCS grids for 2007 and beyond.  Raising fees on shrinking race entries will only prolong its demise.  Don't band-aid it, fix it.

Quote from: Jeff on November 02, 2006, 08:33:48 AM
I agree that there should be a 'showcase' class with qualifying and a few more laps (say 12).  the question would be, if that happened, would the grids increase?

Doubtfull. Seems that more people are just either staying with track day groups or migrating to them.

I know for me, I didn't even know club level racing existed (and was so easy to get into) until I met someone who raced WERA and CCS.  Seems like advertising may help get more people in.

The "QUALIFYING" aspect will make the racing more interesting. It's not when you registered or how many points you have. IT IS HOW FAST YOU ARE.  

Does anyone here understand that? Someone at least acknowledge this.

As far as a shocase race goes.  I know that AFM in California has what is called Formula Pacific.  In order to be in that race you have to be under a predetermined lap time for what ever track they are on.  This way you have the cream of the crop in the race.  The entry fee is higher than the rest of the races but it is a purse paying race.  FP is such a shocase class that the 1st-5th place finishers at the end of the year are the 1-5 plate holders.  That probably wouldnt work here.  Go to the AFM website and look at thier class sturcture.  They have just enough to keep everyone busy without having repeat classes.  This alows them to practice on Saturday and race on Sunday.  I know you could fit in a 15min qualifying session for what ever shocase race we may have.

Quote from: grasshopper on November 02, 2006, 10:04:26 AM
The "QUALIFYING" aspect will make the racing more interesting. It's not when you registered or how many points you have. IT IS HOW FAST YOU ARE. 

Does anyone here understand that? Someone at least acknowledge this.

Yes wise grasshopper, it's called the ASRA series.

Would you guys pay extra entry fees for races that have a qualifying session?

Quote from: ecumike on November 02, 2006, 12:02:44 PM
Would you guys pay extra entry fees for races that have a qualifying session?

No.  Tires/Fuel, it's not worth it.

Quote from: ecumike on November 02, 2006, 12:02:44 PM
Would you guys pay extra entry fees for races that have a qualifying session?

I would not pay for just a qualifying session but if it was a purse paying race where you have the best of the best on the track yes I would pay more.

Quote from: ecumike on November 02, 2006, 12:01:45 PM
Yes wise grasshopper, it's called the ASRA series.

Then I may just have to try a few ASRA races this coming season.

If they trimmed some of the 'fat' off the schedule then the grids would certainly grow per race.  I know for me I can race damn near every race on my 600, but I usually choose 4 or 5 per day to do.  I am going to do the same total races per day no matter if there is 30 races or 6 races per day, and I think most people are like that.  There are a lot of races I wanted to do last year but there are only so many races I can do per day and still be competitive. 

The main problem though is then you will get into more back to back races, but if we weren't rushing to get 50 races done per day then we could have 10 minutes or whatever between races so you could catch a breather before the next race/refuel, or whatever.

Right now, it seems like each race usually has less than 10 racers which really sucks.  Its hard to get any contingency with 4 guys lined up, and it makes some of the championships a bit of a joke. 

how is one ever going to get into shape enough to run an ama national if you do not have gt races?

Quote from: Spooner on November 02, 2006, 12:28:44 PM
Right now, it seems like each race usually has less than 10 racers which really sucks. 

... what region are you in?  I think the only time I've seen less than 10 racers is at Roebling, for some LW classes.

Quote from: mdr14 on November 02, 2006, 12:38:35 PM
how is one ever going to get into shape enough to run an ama national if you do not have gt races?

Ummm workout & do trackdays.  Trackdays are great for seat time. usually a 20 min session every hour or so.

Quote from: ecumike on November 02, 2006, 12:53:04 PM
... what region are you in? 

Great Plains-yeah the main races (MWSS, UNGP, etc..) have bigger grids, but many of the other ones are pretty small.  This is a new region too so the numbers are growing, but even when we had the combined ASRA round at HPT the grids were nothing spectacular.

And I am all for keeping the GT races-they are my favorite personally.

on a 600 you can do 10 races a weekend!!! i agree w/ spooner, im gonna do 5 races, it makes no difference to me weather ive got 10 races to choose from or just 5. why with less races do entries have to skyrocket? will overall entries really drop if there is 30 races to choose from instead of 40?

And for reference, CCS overall growth is up and is healthy year-to-year (which is better than some other orgs mentioned in this thread).  The costs however, are growing disproportionately to revenue.

There hasn't been a rate increase for license or entries in several years (I believe either 03 or 04 was the last change).

The fact remains, costs continue to increase at a more rapid pace than revenue.

Do you honestly think that CCS doesn't analyze and scrutinize profit/loss and the competitive organizations around the country?

Quote from: robsob on November 02, 2006, 01:25:16 PM
will overall entries really drop if there is 30 races to choose from instead of 40?

Yes.

I think they really need to work on getting spectators.  Look how many sportbikes are riding around these days-you think that if they actually KNEW that there was racing around that they would go check it out??  I think they would!  I work at a shop in KC that centers on sportbikes and roadracing and we constantly get in guys that walk in, see a race bike and say 'there's racing around here??' 

I think CCS needs to work with the tracks to get some REAL advertising out there.  If we could get just 100 people to show up I would be blown away!  I know dirt track is very well advertised around here and they get thousands to show up!  If we get more people coming to spectate and raise awareness then more people would end up racing.

It seems the best option was left out.  Keep the GT Classes and revert them back to real purse races.  The comparable race classes in "that other org" seem to always have healthy grids, at least on the East Coast.

So keep GT Purse races, raise the per race fee, drop GP (it no longer makes sense anyway, not unless you bring GP bikes back into them and drop inline 4's out).

Anyway, that convoluted mess is my vote.

I agree with what Spooner is saying.  It's beating a dead horse, but why not lower the gate fee to 5/head/day?  I'm a big proponent of charging less to get more people in.  I still can't understand why a regular test and tune drag at Gateway on a Tuesday night will bring in several hundred spectators and we can't get nearly that many at a motorcycle race.  I guess it's because there are more people into cars than bikes...

What's better 50 people at 15 or 200 at 5?  Do the insurance costs increase as the number of spectators increase?  Just curious.

Also, I thought our license fees actually increased this year as did race entry fees. 

Apply the same concept to lower race entry fees and maybe more people will do more races or you get an additional 20 racers that weekend.

The whole spectator idea is not going to work. Not that many people are going to show to watch club racing. Not enough to make any significant impact on your fees. Besides, if many did show, the tracks would consider the events to be spectator events and many tracks charge higher fees for such events.

Club racing is for racers, not for spectators. ISTR that CCS spent money on advertising and never got return on the investment.

I would rather that CCS concentrate on putting on races and improving the organization than spending money trying to attract spectators.

This is club racing. It is for fun. You should be expecting to cover all your expenses out of your own pocket. You should never count on any purse money. For me, purse/contingency money is icing on the cake. Nice to have, but not necessary. I race within my means. If money gets tight I cut back on my racing. It is not worth ruining myself financially.

Quote from: tzracer on November 02, 2006, 03:20:22 PM
...This is club racing. It is for fun. You should be expecting to cover all your expenses out of your own pocket. You should never count on any purse money. For me, purse/contingency money is icing on the cake. Nice to have, but not necessary. I race within my means. If money gets tight I cut back on my racing. It is not worth ruining myself financially.

And I submit that different people race for different reasons and purposes and while your reasons work for you they certainly won't work for everybody.  That's why "largest appeal" has to be the primary justification.

And for me, racing should first be about racing, the "hobby" thing is secondary.

Keep the GT races.  Eliminate the really small classes or run them combined with other groups (Ultra LWSB comes to mind - I think its a cool class and is fine to keep - run ULWSB with LWSS).  Redundant classes (SB/GP, Heavyweight/UNL) need to be rationalized.

Charge people for crashing and causing red flags - maybe you get 5 free rides on the Crash truck per year - anything beyond that you get hit with a $20 fee per incident.  The habitual crashers are putting us all in danger and are causing delays in the schedule which reduce everyone's track time.

Get rid of the per head entry (or lower it significantly) and just raise the entry fee for each of the races - it really discourages people from seeing the sport and maybe getting more interested.  My wife doesn't mind what I spend to enter the races but she does fume over paying $35.00 to drive in the gate.  I could probably get some friends and family to come out to watch if they didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for this non-spectator event.

George


 

Quote from: tzracer on November 02, 2006, 03:20:22 PM
The whole spectator idea is not going to work. Not that many people are going to show to watch club racing. Not enough to make any significant impact on your fees. Besides, if many did show, the tracks would consider the events to be spectator events and many tracks charge higher fees for such events.

Club racing is for racers, not for spectators. ISTR that CCS spent money on advertising and never got return on the investment.

I would rather that CCS concentrate on putting on races and improving the organization than spending money trying to attract spectators.

CCS should spend money... not to attract spectators... but more racers. 

There are many street riders that don't even know this culture exists.

and prbably never will on their own due to $25 gate fees.  I don't mind paying it as a racer but my wife shouldn't have to pay it.

Pilling on. My wife didn't appreciate the 2 drive and $50 for her and our eldest daughter to see me race at BHF (my first race); luckily we didn't have to pay for he two youngest.  I think that lowering gate fees for spectators and bringing in more food vendors would help overall

Quote from: kwracer on November 02, 2006, 03:29:41 PM


And for me, racing should first be about racing, the "hobby" thing is secondary.

HUH?  :wtf:

 :spank: That should be a dead horse he's spanking because the spectator thing has been hashed over and over again until it's stupid. Please ..........spectators are not going to show up in droves to see you race. You are not Hayden and joe blow on the street could care less if you are racing in his back yard. Sorry but that's fact.
CCS won't be spending any extra money on advertising anytime soon and part of that is because they only consider expensive advertising methods.

As for gate fees....this is a money maker for CCS and the tracks. CCS gets the majority of the gate but the track gets a cut of it too. Yes that means the more people thru the gate the more money they all make however, it has been proven over and over that advertising in national mags and racing papers doesn't get more people to the track.

For the few people that are surprised there is racing locally they won't bring in enough money to offset those advertising costs. Although there is a cheap way of advertising that the orgs continually ignore. The simple flier sent out to local dealers in a roughly one hour travel time of the race track. It's easy to do and costs are low but for some reason they won't do it.

Quote from: George_Linhart on November 02, 2006, 04:53:00 PManything beyond that you get hit with a $20 fee per incident.

Was thinking of making a sign for the crash trucks trailer that said "$20 a tow" mainly to joke around with some of my "regulars" :lol:

But if they seriously did something like that, you'd watch the grids dry up faster than Twinkies disappears in Rosie O'donnells house.


BTW for the newer racers, since I've been with CCS starting in 1999, theres been 4 different owners. PACE, SFX, CCE and now Kevin.

YES! Only if we got more purrse money for the other/ remaining classes!!

QuoteWas thinking of making a sign for the crash trucks trailer that said "$20 a tow" mainly to joke around with some of my "regulars" :lol:

But if they seriously did something like that, you'd watch the grids dry up faster than Twinkies disappears in Rosie O'donnells house.

OK, maybe it is a harsh and unrealistic thought.  All I know is that I've watched certain people come in 5 times in a weekend on the crash truck.  Racing incidents are racing incidents, but that is just silly.  It wouldn't affect me at all and if I did crash 5X in one year I would probably deserve to pay for my stupidity.

George

SO I have an idea... how about charging for transponders like WERA does?  There's a way to grow revenue w/o raising entry fees.

I have lived in the same county as Blackhawk Farms my entire life, yet I never knew it was there, much less that motorcycle racing went on there, until I was about 23 years old. After a fellow motorcyclist asked me if I was interested in going to Road America to spectate the AMA event I never even knew it existed either. After that he told me about BFR and I went and spectated every event from that point on. After seeing a Learning Curves flyer at the track I called Rick and found out it was so easy to get involved - prior to that I thought you had to have an 'IN' or something to do it! At the end of my 2nd season of spectating I took my new racer licensing school and started racing myself at the start of the next season.

My point with this is that I drove within a couple miles of that track on a regular basis my entire life and never even knew it was there! The promotion of many race tracks sucks and the promotion of racing organizations is lack luster as well. I had gone to motorcycle and ATV dealerships and shops for many years, yet I can't recall ever seeing an advertisement for racing at Blackhawk Farms or for motorcycle road racing. If I had known how easy it was to get involved I may have started racing 10 years earlier than I did, it was very frustrating to me once I eventually found out about BFR being so close to me and never knowing it. Promotion for spectators is one thing, promotion to get more potential racers involved is a different concept. Developing an attractive 'product' is another issue, make the act of racing a desirable and attainable thing that someone interested can do.

Personally I see so many potential racers fall into the rut of track days, LOTS OF THEM! Yet who's best interest are Track Days in? Defenders of track day org's brag how they are a stepping stone to actual racing, yet how many Track Day org's have sought to be certified as being able to provide 'new racer licensing' for CCS? (After all, that's not in the best interest of the Track Day org's that have effectively driven track rental rates thru the roof - both bike and car org's) I think CCS should offer incentives to brand new racers to try and get them to start racing ASAP so they don't have time to get all worried about racing after taking their school. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "I have to do alot more track days to get good enough to go racing", what a bunch of crap, there really weren't track day org's when I started racing - you just went for it! I think when a brand new racer gets their 1st race license they should get coupons good for a couple free entries and a certain number of discounted entries as well, say 2 free entry coupons and 4 coupons good for $20 entries. That will hopefully get them to race several classes the same weekend they take their school and still have a couple coupons left to get them to the next event as well and start the addiction (1 step backward at the start by CCS to start new racers running). A common complaint I here by newbies is they can't afford to pay for the school, a racing license, and races all in the same weekend - the coupon idea would help to get them on the track ASAP before they start having 2nd thoughts and planning on going back to doing Track Days! I also believe that a BRAND NEW racer should get a discount on their 1st race license as well, say 1/2 price, just to get them started - (give a little, gain alot CCS!).

More people on the grids will help us all by bringing in money to CCS to cover costs, more racers per event = less increases!  :thumb:

Keep the GT's.  I like my 12 lapper or so on Sat.  I would like to see qualifying for all SS classes, even lightweight, even if they did it by practice times of say the 2nd practice round.

 Well, so far it is 5 to 1 AGAINST eliminating a class to increase lap #s or fees...

I believe that CCS and their predecessors have completely missed the marketing boat.  This is motorcycle racing even if it isn't at a national event and is exciting to watch for most people.  Granted, BHF is not the greatest spectator track because you see a maximum of two corners at the same time. 

A low cost communication campaign could potentially bring in thousand of dollars of spectator revenue, hype, media etc...The racing organization and the racers have made this into a relatively exclusive thing.

On the track day discussion - I favor them because when I was running slow intermediate lap times, I simply wasn't ready for racing.  I got to be one of the fastest advanced riders (with a rel. slow organization) and felt that I was ready.  Do you really want to ride with people that have had no track time?  Insane!

Yes track days are cheaper than racing right now.  The racing orgs. need to adapt (who has stolen my cheese) to make racing more attractive to the average performance rider.  Require min. lap time to get competent riders, develop spectator revenue and make it cheaper for racers to run.

I just came across this thread, and funny thing is we just sent out a survey that many of you will receive that has a question asking this same thing about the GT races.  Our consideration in dropping the GT classes has more to do with insurance costs and small grids than anything else.

First let me start out by saying that on the surface all of this seems very simple to most racers.  However, I must say that it has been an interesting experience for me personally to have gone from one side of the grid as a racer, to the other side of the grid now as the operator and promoter of a race series.  I don't mean this in a negative way or anything like that, but most racers have no idea as to the incredible amount of time, energy, personal sacrifice, and money that goes into putting on a race weekend. 

When it comes to enty fees, gate fees, transponder fees, etc., you can slice up the pie and call each piece whatever you want to, but the bottom line is that it costs X amount of dollars to put on a race weekend and the race org must raise X amount of dollars to cover those costs...plus a reasonable amount of profit to make the whole thing worth doing.  It costs on average $25,000 to $30,000 to put on a race weekend.  If you were to invest $30 grand in a stock or savings account you would expect a return on your investment.  Business is the same thing.  If I invest $30,000 in putting on a race event, it is not unreasonable to expect a return on that investment.  If you want to have a place to race, the race organization has got to make money to stay in business.  Needless to say, I will be spending my winter working some serious overtime at my real job to recover from the losses we sustained in the first year of the TrackAddix GP.  Keep me employed, come fly the friendly skies of United!

Some food for thought regarding the dropping of the GT races.  We have settled on a format of Saturday being more of a track day than a racer only practice.  We are hoping that this will expose more track day riders to racing and hopeful entice them to make the jump.  The idea being to feed the street riders to track days and then the track day riders to race series.    We have found that our racers really like all the track time on Saturday so they don't have to take Friday off from work to attend a practice.  We also found that our racers really like getting done early on Sunday so they can get back home at a reasonable hour and not be dead tired for work on Monday.  So here in lies the problem of fitting 5 pounds of sh*t into the preverbial 2 pound bag.  We placed the GT races at the end of the Saturday track day with the idea being that you are racers and will most likely enter the GT races to do some racing on Saturday.  Cost wise we allowed the racers to attend Saturday at a deeply discounted price thinking that the combination of the track day and GT entry fee would roughly be the eqivilent of the full track price and help us cover the costs for Saturday.  Well the reality is that didn't happened.  We found most racers were enjoying a cheap track day and not entering the GT races, which caused us to sustain a loss on the Saturday expenses.  The biggest contributor to that loss was insurance costs.  Once you add competitive wheel to wheel racing to the day (even for only a couple short races at the end of the day) the insurance bill went up about $3000 for the day.  Something that may surprise you, our insurance costs per Saturday/Sunday race weekend....$6512.00.  Now add track rental, corner workers, ambulance, race staff, plaques, etc, etc, etc and you can see how costs can quickly reach $30,000 for a race weekend.

Because of the losses we sustained, because this is a new and growing race series, and because we really don't want to raise entry fees (although sometimes this is a necessary evil) we are looking for creative ways to cut costs for our 2007 season and still put on an affordable, fun, and well run race weekend for all of you.  Making Saturday a track day only with no racing will save $3 grand right off the top.  So now the problem is what do we do with the GT races?  Moving them to Sunday creates a couple of issues.  One, the day would be much longer and would eliminate one of things racers enjoy about our series...getting done early.  Two, the day would be so packed that there is absolutey no slack time in the schedule.  A couple of 30 minute delays for crash pick ups and now we are faced with shortening races to finish the day within the time allowed by our track rental contract.

There is a lot of talk on this thread about eliminating SuperBike and/or GP classes.  Here is something to consider regarding that.  Much of the contingency payouts are associated with those classes.  Eliminating them would mean fewer opportunities to earn tire money, etc.

Here is an alternative I would like to propose.  If the GT classes are that important to you, what about just eliminating the Heavyweight classes to make room in the Sunday schedule for the GT races and still be able to get done at a decent hour?  My thoughts are that it seems that most riders are either on a LW bike, a 600 or a 1000 these days.  So keep SuperSport, SuperBike, and GP classes but only run LW, MW, and Unlimited.  Most tracks we race on are somewhat technical so a 750 should be competitive against 1000's.  At MAM for instance the lap record is held by a 600.  What does everyone think about this alternative?

The TrackAddix GP is a race series run by racers, for racers.  If you raced with us this year, you will be getting a survey requesting your feedback and input.  Please complete it and mail or fax back to us immediately.  We are very busy getting ready for the 2007 season and need you ideas and opinions right away.

Thank you for your support and we look forward to racing with you again next year!

-Dean

I wouldn't mind eliminating HW (but of course, I ride a 600).

Just quickly looking at the Jun BHF entries... it appeared there about the same number of entries in HW vs UL....  Although it seemed there were a lot more 600's in the HW class than UL.

I'm thinking you may get less overall entries if you do that as a lot of the 600's that currently race "up" may not go all the way to the UL class.

I would have raced unlimited on my 600 if heavyweight wasn't available...  I did race UNL a couple of times on my 600 and did quite well in fact.

Me too.  I've done it.  I'm just saying it may happen.

I like eliminating HW best of all the offered solutions so far.

Quote from: Jeff on November 01, 2006, 04:25:57 PM
Here's the overall deal...

When costs go up for a company, revenue has to go up as well.  Find a creative way to make that happen!  The only 2 ways it can happen are for the number of entries to go up, or for the cost of the entries to go up.

I agree with Jeff on this, but heres my .02 worth.
Every racer has there "Racing checkbook" (some larger than others) and can only afford to spend X amount of money per weekend. I don't care how you charge it or put a fee on this or that when you hit that X value you are done. Charging racers more per race isn't going to get you more money, its going to get more racers doing fewer races.
This is an awesome sport but we also need to remember this is a business and needs to generate income. Considering we all know its already an expensive sport, making it more expensive won't generate more revenue in the long run. We need to bring more racers to the grid.
I agree with R1OWNER (advertising may help), I also didn't know how easy it was to get into racing or even hear about it from my local dealerships. I understand advertising in racing magazines is expensive and doesn't work - who reads racing magazines? - racers. We need to attract the street riders to do track days and the track day riders to racing. I'll leave that up to the professionals to figure out how!

Yep, totally understand that people have X budget.  So looking at bringing in a bit more profit for CCS while adding something back to the racer so they feel a bit better about spending an extra $25-$50 per weekend.

And if in the process, there is something which can work out as a cost savings to CCS, it's icing on the cake and allows CCS to grow as a business which benefits us all...

Quote from: Jeff on November 03, 2006, 12:21:43 PM
Yep, totally understand that people have X budget.  So looking at bringing in a bit more profit for CCS while adding something back to the racer so they feel a bit better about spending an extra $25-$50 per weekend.

And if in the process, there is something which can work out as a cost savings to CCS, it's icing on the cake and allows CCS to grow as a business which benefits us all...

This is my point... why try to squeeze another 25-50 out of existing racers?  Why not charge less and try to get more riders/entries.  From what I'm seeing, there's plenty of room on the grids for more bikes.

Why not use us, the racers as advertising?  I know I am telling every street rider I can about trackdays and racing.  Why not give existing racers an incentive to get new people out on the track?  Maybe when someone purchases their license they can say who referred them and that person gets X amount of free races or something?  I know that would make me work a lot harder to get more guys to grid up!

I agree Nick... every rider I see, I tell them about racing and try to get them to the track.

It's funny though cause at Gateway on the trackday.... how many bikes were there versus the races?  There were probably 50% more bikes there the day before.  What does it take to get those guys to race?

Oh, and heavyweight it only 2 races-there is no HWGP that i have ever seen on a schedule.  I agree with making superbike and GP the same that way the 2 smokers still have a class to ride. 

Quote from: r1owner on November 03, 2006, 12:29:56 PM
I agree Nick... every rider I see, I tell them about racing and try to get them to the track.

It's funny though cause at Gateway on the trackday.... how many bikes were there versus the races?  There were probably 50% more bikes there the day before.  What does it take to get those guys to race?

Yeah, there were over 100 riders at that trackday at Gateway.  Same with Hallett, they get well over 100 riders there too, but it seems like many guys aren't stepping up to the plate to race.  I would assume money is the #1 reason guys aren't moving up.  Also many of the trackday guys think you need to be 2 seconds off the lap record to race when that simply isn't true. 

Dean actually has a very good idea in making racer practice on saturdays open to street riders as well.  I know of several guys that hadn't been to a race weekend but had done many trackdays that will be racing next year because they came out to the races and saw what it was all about.  They get in free to watch the races sunday which I think was an incredible marketing tool!  Guys look at the results sheets and say, 'Hey, I can do those times!' and then they sign up and all is good. 

Get rid of HW AND combine superbike and GP...

That also brings up another point-many guys just getting into this are very confused with all the different classes.  Supersport and superbike/GP makes the most sense because its basically modded and not modded.

Has anyone considered that eliminating certain classes will drastically effect the ability to run for points? If you are on a heavyweight(750) bike and you want to run for top ten points you are already at a disadvantage even with the new point structure. If you take away a heavyweight class those guys can forget a good overall number........    Just my two cents-points will be affected!

THIS IS TOO MUCH SHIT!! LEAVE IT ALONE!! RUN IT AS IS!!!

Yeah, keep the hw stuff for the 750 riders.  There are many more of them than 2 stroke guys in my region.

Just nuke ULightGP, lwgp, mwgp, ungp, but make one race that is like ungp-call it formula 1 or something.  If anything it makes it easier to understand the classes, and would make the day a bit shorter so we wouldn't have to rush so much to get everything done.

I also agree with Dean's point - eliminate HW.  I know that I will now wait until after the 07 regs are finalized before making any kind of modification decision with my SV or R6

Dean and the GP region are WAY different than some of the other regions. He may be able to do away with HW but I think the MW region needs to keep it for entry numbers($$) Kevin is not going to eliminate ANY class that has strong entries !!

I wouldn't be so sure about that Bubba...

What everyone needs to consider is the WHOLE picture, and unfortunately we don't necessarily see the whole picture.

If you pull a strong class, can those riders go into another class and build it up?  Is there an incentive for riders to do it?  Will it cut costs?  Will it affect rules?

There are a million things to consider based on what any given objective is.

Quote from: Spooner on November 03, 2006, 12:37:51 PM
That also brings up another point-many guys just getting into this are very confused with all the different classes.  Supersport and superbike/GP makes the most sense because its basically modded and not modded.

Problem with that is solved if people actually READ the rulebook.

MotoGP and AMA Pro racing have great influence on bikes sold, just look at when the 600's and 1000's got so popular. Now MotoGP is going back to 800cc bikes. Track after track here in the US is having to make changes just to accomodate the 1000's and tires are being pushed to their threshold (and wearing out at incredibly fast rates on the 1000's). There have been rumors of the AMA Superbike class going back to Heavy Weight class bikes in the near future - following suit of the MotoGP. I'm not so sure that eliminating the (2) Heavy Weight classes is going in the direction that racing is going. Being someone that is over 200 lbs a 600 just doesn't work for me, to get the same power to weight ratio the majority of the 600 racers have I need a bit more Hp, but not excessive like on a 1000.

I pointed out before the 2006 season started that due to flaws in the new points system the majority of people who would get Top 10 plates would be the riders in the biggest classes due to how high their performance index is when finishing lower in the results as compared to those in smaller classes finishing better, in other words Middle Weight riders would have a huge advantage. The only exception to this would be riders who are constant podium finishers and run at least 6 classes, this is the reason Ed Key was able to get a Top 10 plate, but also the reason he got screwed out of a #1 plate. Jump forward to the final Top 10 points in the MW region and 7 rode Middle Weight bikes, 2 of them on Light Weight bikes and 1 on a Heavy Weight bike (riding only a Unlimited bike is statistically impossible to get a Top 10 plate when the max number of classes you can run is 4). Elimination of even 1 Lightweight class and 1 Heavy Weight class would mean that most likely every rider in the Top 10 points championship in 2007 will be on a Middle Weight bike - if that's the case you might as well change it to the "Middle Weight Points Championship" so it accurately depicts what it really would be.

Quote from: weggieman on November 02, 2006, 07:02:34 PM
:spank: That should be a dead horse he's spanking because the spectator thing has been hashed over and over again until it's stupid. Please ..........spectators are not going to show up in droves to see you race. You are not Hayden and joe blow on the street could care less if you are racing in his back yard. Sorry but that's fact.
CCS won't be spending any extra money on advertising anytime soon and part of that is because they only consider expensive advertising methods.

As for gate fees....this is a money maker for CCS and the tracks. CCS gets the majority of the gate but the track gets a cut of it too. Yes that means the more people thru the gate the more money they all make however, it has been proven over and over that advertising in national mags and racing papers doesn't get more people to the track.

For the few people that are surprised there is racing locally they won't bring in enough money to offset those advertising costs. Although there is a cheap way of advertising that the orgs continually ignore. The simple flier sent out to local dealers in a roughly one hour travel time of the race track. It's easy to do and costs are low but for some reason they won't do it.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.  Turnouts (fans) at Moroso are always good from what I remember.  I've never been to Homestead, and Jennings is non-spectator so those are 2 fl region tracks that I can't comment on, but what's the only difference?  Henry promotes the race and the racing is GOOD!  Speaking from a fan's perspective I would enjoy watching the shootout as much as an AMA superbike race and I could do it for a fraction of the price.  Let's not forget that we don't need MotoGP turnouts to help the financial cause... just 500 people at 10 bucks a pop would really help everyone involved.  I started racing after attending the GNF in 1992 as a spectator... I seem to remember a LOT of folks showed up to watch the racing that weekend.  A lot of things would have to change in how we operate, but I don't think anyone would mind when purses increase.  Just my .02

"I started racing after attending the GNF in 1992 as a spectator... I seem to remember a LOT of folks showed up to watch the racing that weekend."

I'm in the same boat (except it was Road America 2005), but what attracted you to that event?  Were you going to the AMA races at that venue that same year???, and just wanted to see what this whole club racing thig was about?  The whole point of advertising is getting people who couldn't give two shi** about what you're doing untill they saw your little add.  The ammount of $ that would have to go into advertising to increase the club racing fan-base could NEVER be off set by the new influx of fans.  Not saying it's not a blast, but aren't we a little partial?  Look at the SCCA events.... I've grown up around that stuff, and you see the same people at EVERY race....why??? Becuase those are the people who are pouring their hearts and soles into something they love.  Bottom line....if you don't love racing, you're not going out of your way to see a club-level race.  Guess we just have to bite the bullet and realize we aren't going to have everyone and their mother paying to see us race :wah:   but it sure is fun isn't it?
 
My .02

As was mentioned before the advertising need not be expensive. Flyers at the bike shops within 15 miles of the tracks. How about a flyer that gets a spectator in for $5, Spectator gets a different wristband for $5 admission and the racers still pay the $25 that CCS wants. Run like this for a trial period and if the idea works then we could see our gate fees lowered and CCS has lost nothing. If the idea doesn't work then at least we tried and CCS has still lost nothing.

That kind of advertising can be done by riders.  A computer, a printer, and a copy machine will go a long way in promoting individual riders or teams at club events.

Quote from: spyderchick on November 01, 2006, 03:52:16 PM
Keep GT and drop either Superbike or GP. GT races are the only class that CCS runs that is even close to the time on track of a national level/pro race.

+1

However, I do not see how raising fees is going to attract more riders? Most of the purse classes were eliminated last year, the refund policy was made more restrictive, and certs from the CCE Org were only allowed to be used by mail- in processing? Add on to that pile the growing list of riders who are not receiving their contingency monies and it seems, at least to me, that there is a ton of other improvements to be made first that would bring more racers out.  :preachon:

  Wanna add some trailers to the paddock? Have a  T.C. track championship at BFR and others. Regional mini endurance races that are 2 or 3 hours long. THEN you could do away with a class or 3, and THEN you would see an increase in #s.   My .02     

No, increasing fees won't make the grid bigger.  But race day has a cost.  If classes are eliminated, then the race day entrants have to compensate for that loss of revenue and the increase in time on track. 

TC's haven't been dramatically popular.  It returned to CCS in 2001 and receeded to its present form.  It was actually a 200 mile race, but it's down to 200k now.  Entry fee has remained the same.  If one won overall, you got a free entry.  I don't think that's in place anymore.  It's jammed into regular weekend schedules ratherthan being exclusively at ASRA events.

Quote from: Super Dave on November 05, 2006, 11:04:16 AM
TC's haven't been dramatically popular.  It returned to CCS in 2001 and receeded to its present form.  It was actually a 200 mile race, but it's down to 200k now. 

  How is it that WERA flourishes while CCS continues to struggle? Isn't the majority of a WERA weekend based on endurance while it's minority of time is spent on sprints?


  I was shocked to see such small levels of participation at the ASRA TC event held @ BFR. Some other locals and I helped Rick and Kevin of FLC in being their pit crew guys. They practically had the track to themselves with something like 7 or 8 other participants. That was awesome!! Finding a balance between the current CCS Format while mixing in more of an endurance basis is my recommendation based on market observations and racer preferences. Track time increasing might lead to raised insurance levels? <That would be the biggest drawback I can think of to trying it. And, of course, if few people entered it...

  Could we put together a trial with a "TC regional" season at BFR for '07? 

Quote from: Jeff on November 03, 2006, 01:33:54 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that Bubba...

What everyone needs to consider is the WHOLE picture, and unfortunately we don't necessarily see the whole picture.

If you pull a strong class, can those riders go into another class and build it up?  Is there an incentive for riders to do it?  Will it cut costs?  Will it affect rules?

There are a million things to consider based on what any given objective is.

How about points? If you pull a heavyweight class it`s gonna hurt the 750`s and maybe 1000`s (depending on the class pulled) as far as overall points go.
No reason to buy anything but 600...right? Looking at overall points shows very few exceptions to that unless you want to race in the `alternative classes` !! 

Quote from: 251am on November 05, 2006, 12:03:52 PM
  How is it that WERA flourishes while CCS continues to struggle? Isn't the majority of a WERA weekend based on endurance while it's minority of time is spent on sprints?   

There's more WERA endurance races than CCS has TC's, but it's still a minority of races that WERA has that have an endurace race.

All of Saturday is endurance for WERA.  Sunday, sprints.  WERA has long endurance races since the beginning of time, pretty much.  CCS had the Three Hour Challenge in the eighties, then rolled that into the AMA national program.  Eventually, that was rolled out, and it was picked up again in CCS in 2001.  Still, the format was originally three hours, and the new Team Challenge was 200 miles, or 2.75 hours.  Then the distance was reduced to 200k, about 160 miles.  Don't remember what the time limit it anymore.

Quote from: Bubba on November 05, 2006, 02:26:51 PM
How about points? If you pull a heavyweight class it`s gonna hurt the 750`s and maybe 1000`s (depending on the class pulled) as far as overall points go.
No reason to buy anything but 600...right? Looking at overall points shows very few exceptions to that unless you want to race in the `alternative classes` !! 

I think if you eliminated superbike, you'd have to add heavyweight Grand Prix.  The revenue would be needed.

600's?  Well, they have always been versitile.  Tom Girard and I won regional championships on 600's.  Honestly, we can go through a long list of riders that have done that.  Reduce the number of classes that count toward the championship, and it might even out.  Or make the number one plate holder the guy that wins Unlimited Grand Prix's championship.

WERA has had a NATIONAL endurance series for ever. It has a history and a future. They run  National weekends that include endurance on Friday or Saturday and sprints on Sunday. As far as I know they don't combine regional and national weekends like CCS does ASRA/CCS.

CCS had an endurance series but it never took off like WERA's. If people want to go endurance racing they go WERA. It is a true endurance series of 4,6,8 and 24 hour events.

My little two cents says dump the overall regional championships and have class championships only. That way nobody buys a regional #1 plate. Run a national series like WERA does. An ASRA event with all the regular regional classes but the points for all classes go to a national championship not a regional series. Then you have the ROC as the final for the national championship series. All national weekends gridded by points. The ROC gridded by national points first then regional points behind them.

This way you have a national series for all classes not just four. people will travel to make the national series if it's put together right and travel for everyone is a consideration. Maybe on national in each region at the better tracks., RA, Barber, Heartland Park, VIR, etc.

it could be done with some planning over the next season. Overhaul the ASRA series into a national series for everyone not just four classes.

Back to advertising, has anyone though about about using the radio?  It's cheap and gets the word out to a ton of local people,  just look around an office once how many people have a radio on?  Also Having a CCS "person" going around working with the local dealerships to build-up a working partnership with them, like to trade some advertising, they try to get their customers out to the races, in turn some banners from those dealerships turn up at the track in some "photogenic" corners.

While some say no one wants to come out for a "club" race to spectate, I call B.S.  Take a look at Saturday night short track stock car racing, your local short track is a form of "club" racing.  I know my local short track pulls upwards of 250 - 500 people on a average night and 500 - 1000 on "special event" type weekends.  I don't expect spectators in that kind of numbers, but if we could get 1/10th of that to start with, and they had a good time then told their friends & co-workers, you could possibly see a decent turn-out of spectators with-in a couple of years.  The down side is that the gate admission would have to drop slightly, at least for spectators, to be comparable with your average short-track type of event to something more in the range of $10 - $15 for adults, $8-$10 under 12 etc...

Granted some track just aren't spectator friendly, like Blackhawk, but there are some that are, MAM & RA come to mind in the midwest as places to start trying to build a spectator fan base.

Just my 2 cents.

Local advertising would be up to the local race director. I used to do a lot of it back when I held the job.

I attended dealer open houses, motorsports shows, anywhere I could put in a plug for our regional series as well as the national stuff. Handed out a ton of season schedules and other info. Didn't do the big annual bike show in Chicago because of costs but made sure someone in there had plenty of schedules, etc.

It takes some VOLUNTEER time but it's not hard to do. A lot of people talk about CCS should do this or that but what about yourselves? You say you love this sport so much and want to see it grow but what do you do to help that? Take a little of your time to help. Copy some schedules and hand them out wherever there are groups of riders meeting, dealerships, etc. Be a promoter of your sport and see if it helps.

It not only promotes the sport but it's a damn good way to promote yourself. Offer a sponsor or local dealer to put your bike on display and offer to do a racing evening at their shop. of course since you are promoting CCS be sure to check with them first, maybe they'll offer to supply the schedules and so forth for you. Talk to Rick Breuer from Learning Curves, he would be happy to supply brochures from the school. You don't have to be the ultimate spokesperson but you can hand out info and tell people to make a call to whoever for more information.

Don't always depend on someone else to do all the work, get out a little bit yourself and help.

I agree 100%,  In my area I try to get as many people as I can out to the track, and offer help to those who would like to start racing in any way I can.  I also work with my local Dealer / Sponsor getting guys off the street and on the track.  Your right is is very easy, and actually kinda fun.

I never thought about contacting LCR and getting some brochures, I'll have to do that next year.

I always send out a "where I'm gonna be" email before the weekend and my race report afterwards to a few hundred people I work with and am associated with.  Over the years, this effort has taken me mere minutes and has gotten a handful of people to come out to the track.

It's really quite easy...  While the benefit to CCS wasn't great or even noticeable in the grand scheme of things, it took virtually no effort on my part and if EVERYONE did it, there might be a few more people coming out.

I would like to see a "fan appreciation day" or weekend where admission was really reduced or eliminated so we could try and pack the stands...