One major part of my skills that I need to work on is racing in traffic. I can't really work on that in practice, because I don't want to do something stupid when we aren't even racing. All last year I ended up one or two places back in many races (even more if something happened early in the race) only because I was nice.
I know everyone says that 'the person in front has the line.' My problem comes from people coming on the inside to take it from me. My first thought is 'he's got it and let him take it. It's not worth the crash and he's probably got the right-of-way.' I know theres been a few times this person is still probably a little behind me, but when it gets close I don't want to risk being an ass.
A couple times I've snuck up on the inside of a competitor only for him to shut the door on me - as I slamm on the brake to avoid his ass.
I've seen a ton of angry racers bitching at or about others who do stuff like this. I know it's a part of racing and I'm fine with avoiding others' mistakes, but I don't want to be known as a jackass either.
So please expound on how I should look at this. I know that just because I can see the person's front wheel doesn't mean he's ahead of me, but do I make it tough for him to hit his line or do I except that he broke a little later than me and give it up?
Racing up front in amateur this year made me realize a ton about braking and waiting a little longer than the other guy (and when not to), but I need more advice from those of you that have done it more.
Also, what if I accidentally piss someone off? Do you just let it slide off your back and know that he'll get over it? I know that sounds like a silly question, but this racing has a great atmosphere that I enjoy and I don't want to be known as the dangerous idiot ;)
Very good question. I look forward to reading the responses.
Dawn :)
I like how they replaced my curse word with pregnant doging :D Dogs don't have to be pregnant to be considered one, they just need the capabilities :)
Take this fwiw. I'm not sure I've "done" it a lot more than you. I think you beat me in a race @ BHF this year, when my door got slammed by a guy almost wrecking in front of me and I dropped 7 places in lap 1 lol! I'm only offering my experience, and passing people not much slower than me is still an art I need major improvement in.
If you have the front wheel, take it. Do everything short of banzai to defend your position. There was a guy last year on a liter bike with great starts who I knew from my previous race with him where I was going to pass him. Problem was, his "line" was so radical and sweeping at my planned passing point that he would not see me until we formed an X...too late. So, I altered my line to stay just inside his, outbraked him as I planned so he could see me the whole time and stayed upright just long enough to force him past his turn in point. At this point his only choice was to run wider than he wanted and "let" me go. Note I said wider, not off the track.
You prolly won't after to resort to tactics like this often, and when you are MUCH faster than the guy you are passing. At your skill level, though, guys know what they are doing...or they are in over their head and will prolly crash regardless.
Yeah, I have about as much sympathy for the whiners as I do for the guy in blackjack who had "their" card "taken" by the previous player. Reality is, until you get a solid front wheel in front, the whole track bleongs to the guy being passed (or not).
I did piss someone off last year, who came at me kinda hard in the pits afterward. I shot off a smartalek remark back at him. After we calmed down, we talked about the situation. Believe it or don't, in the next 2 races I passed him in the exact same corner, exactly the same way. We still laugh about it to this day and are racing and BBS friends. What he learned was more about holding a line and expecting some close quarters at times. I learned that just because people are pissed at first, doesn't mean they have to stay that way, even in a competitive situation like the track.
Also, there were times when things didn't go as I planned and I may have had to squeeze someone a little harder than I intended. I've found a pit apology goes a long way...and should come from the guy (or girl :)) who passed or else it may sound like sour grapes. Talking about the situation with a fellow competitor lets him (or her! :)) know where you are coming from and vice versa.
First off, you say you can't practice passing in practice, sure you can, you've got to practice to get better at it. It just shouldn't be banzai moves, which 99% of your passes in a race shouldn't be either. Hero or zero manuvers are 50/50, you won't last long with those odds.
I know everyone says that 'the person in front has the line'.They do have the line to a certain extent but if you come along side, inside or out they have to give you racing room. Sure they could slam the door on you but they risk taking themselves out at their own fault.
My first thought is 'he's got it and let him take it. No reason you can't run through a corner side by side, don't concede just because he caught you. You should be able to tell if he is in control and you can run side by side or if he comes flying in, out of control, just get him on the exit.
I prefer not to put myself in a cituation where someone can slam the door on me. If I can catch that person under braking then I can hold back alittle, carry more speed through the corner and have a faster exit speed and pass them on the exit. Timing is important, if you catch them at the apex and slow to their speed, you then are only going as fast as they are and it becomes a drag race.
To many look at the braking zone as the ideal place to pass someone. It's great for catching up to someone, passing someone that is less efficient on the brakes than you or the occasional go for broke pass(not recommended) but it sure is easier to pass under acceleration. Problem is most new racers slow to the speed of the person infront of them and try to drag race down a straight. The pass needs to start at or before the apex of the preceeding corner, down the straight and if needed finished under braking. This requires thinking/seeing ahead, planning, timming and execution.
Looking ahead and planning passes is crucial. You need to be able to judge, proir to cathcing them, where you will catch them, is it best to catch them under breaking or after the apex, go inside or outside and where is the best place to pass them without slowing your pace down.
Racing strategy is every bit as important and difficult as riding fast.
My attitude on the track is serious and sometimes I can get hot. Though I might shout a few choice words in my helmet I get over it quickly becuase it will only distract me. If it bothers me enough I might talk to the person about it, no sense letting it continue to be a distraction. If I think I might have cut someone off or made a dicey move I'll give a quick 'sorry wave' and/or look for them on pit road immediately following the session.
Excellent input from both of you. Thanks.
When I started, I did all my passing on the exit of corners. Then a buddy helping me out, took a practice session with me. He passed me into corners and I passed him out of them. I started thinking that going in was the best place to make my move, but I think that is because of my lack of upgrades. I'm still racing a stock bike. If I had better suspension to handle better I can take a different line faster than that competitor. And if I did some carb and exhaust work, maybe I'd have a couple more HP to race to the next corner. I've already been frustrated with the fact that I've come out of corners faster than the guy in front of me, just to watch him slowly pull a couple more bike lengths further.
Don't get me wrong, I still pass people exiting corners. I love that. It's pure strategy :) Stuffing people into corners seems like a cheap motocross move. It seems dirty to me. But I will eventually understand it.
I need more experience, upgrades, and tips from others to learn this part more. The 'riding fast alone' stuff is obvious to me. I can tell where I lack those skills and have done a ton of research on riding fast alone. It's the traffic stuff that is exciting for me.
So keep the advice coming. ;) Do they teach any of these things in school?
What I've done. Most times if I see a wheel coming to a turn I know the guy is most likely in to hot (I'm an AM) so I give him a sec to slip by where I duck behind him and either take the inside line and make him drift or he loses the front end and I do not have to worry about him. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but I feel it is the safest way of battling without bar banging. I'm no pro but I know I get into turns a lot hotter than most AM's so if they are putting a wheel on me I usually know the out come. Damn that sounds conceited. The first time I was "stuffed" was in the rain and the racer did it purposely and I vowed never to put a racer in that situation that could cause them harm. Hey Andrew you probably saw what I'm talking about it was right in front of you at Summit turn 10.
Hmm...
Ok, your bike has stock suspension. That is part of the problem. How fast you can slow down is related to how fast your mid corner speed is. With stock suspension, the geometry really just doesn't sit right. So, your entry is just a little off.
Whoever is in front has the line. Yup. Pretty much law. But, if you can get your front wheel past someone's foot peg, there is no way that they can boot you off, even if you make contact.
Sometimes in expert races there is a bit of light contact. In AMA racing, it's pretty much expected. And you usually don't get mad about it; it can be part of the game.
The trick with passing on the inside is that the radius that you are following is different than the line that you might be used to following. If guys are running up the inside of you and you're going back under them, I think you're in pretty good shape.
So, the question is, do your brakes work correctly, or is your corner speed fast enough? Stock suspension...there is an answer there.
Some use the dive inside move like a block pass. If you can get under someone, you are ahead. If you keep them behind, you did what you wanted to. But if you loose it on the exit, what was the point.
You've still got to do the laps fast to do fast laps.
More thoughts?
Keep this thread going it's great to hear some more experienced racers thoughts on this subject
Passing is probably one of the more difficult things to learn, especially racers that are about the same speed. I consider looking and planning ahead to be most inportant. As you are closing on a rider, watch for any weaknesses. Where are you better then this rider? This often determines the best way/place to make the pass. Surprise is very helpful, once a rider knows you are back there, they can be more difficult to pass. Things get more complicated if someone is glued to your tail.
I do not consider a move on the inside to be dirty. Part of passing is getting yourself in a better position than the person you are passing. I leave other riders "racing room", it may not be much, but I won't push you into the weeds. One difference I have noticed between experts and amateurs, experts won't back off, but they will (for the most part) leave you just enough room, they tend not to block, but won't make it easy either.
I consider racing at our level to be for fun. If I don't think I can make a clean pass (I like to be sure that if I go up the inside that the rider knows I am there - I have been hit even though I was ahead) I don't make the pass. I want to be able to go to work on Monday, and I want my competitors to also. First place is not worth endangering another rider. On the other hand, sometimes what looked like a good pass can go wrong. I try to say something to another rider if I made a mistake and hit them or knocked them down. That is part of racing, racers will make mistakes.
Racing is a thinking person's game, that is why I call racing high speed chess.
When I started, I was in the same boat as you. I came frim the SCCA (car racing) world, and things are a little diferent in CCS, AMA, etc.
At first, I would just ride an oppenent's back tire untill I could force the pass. A buddy of mine, Eric Haugo, taught me that I should drop back a few bikelinks and wait for his weakness, and just use my momentum to make the pass in a much more fluid and safe manner.
That really helped me, and made passing a competitor a much less hair-raising move. I also started to get better finnishes as a result. This way, you KNOW you're going to make the pass, instead of HOPING you can make it stick.
As far as someone passing you in the corners, just hold your line. If they get pinched off, then they chose the WRONG time to pass you. Of course, you should NEVER pinch someone off on purpose, but if you're already commited to your line, it's YOURS! Remember that this is a RACE, not a trackday. You are there to WIN. Don't race dirty, but don't be a doormat, either. It's good that you're asking thease questions instead of finding out the hard way. Keep the questions coming!!!!!
BTW...Don't forget to have fun. Too many people forget that rule. And if some one comes up to you in the pits to complain to you about your riding, a simple appology and explination of your actions really does have a big effect. Most of the time, you can just talk it out. have fun!!!, and if you have anymore questions, post 'em here. I hope that this has helped you.
These pointers don't really apply to the etiquet question. On that topic my opinion is get done what you can get done safely. Part of making safe passes is being confident. Just some thoughts.
One thing to keep in mind during your practice time that might help you gain a little passing confidence is to run places other than the race line. Give the guys around you some breathing room, then find out what's out there and what you need to do to get the bike through a set of corners differently. Run the rumble strips, cut some late and early apexes, run the bike WAY wide, etc. The more you know about the WHOLE track the more confident you'll be when it's time to take the line less traveled.
Also, see if you can find someone that's roughly your skill level and arrange to run your practice with them. Make specific plans to allow each other to get up close and personal. I think you'll find that this is not something to be tentative about. It's actually where the fun is.
I know it is old and probably people may think stupid but
"Do unto others as you would want done to you!"
I may have mis quoted a little but you all got the point. Much what someone else said that if you thought it may have been close go talk to the person and explain you thoughts on the pass. Most people are ok as long as it is close passing but most important SAFE passing!
Kent
Coming from a motocross background, I personally find that passing in road races is much easier (I am still an amatuer FWIW). I often use teqniques I learned on the dirt and apply them to the pavement.
If you've ever watched a motorcross race, you've probably noticed the mass of bikes entering the first turn......for all non-motorcrossers out there, yes it is as crazy as it looks. The good thing is you get accustomed to having physical contact with the other riders...I've even bumped guys 20ft in the air over a jump.
For the pavement, my first recommendation is to get over the fear of close racing. Grab a friend in practice and ride side-by-side throughout the entire racetrack. Practice laying the bike right down on top of the other guy and vice versa. Once you get accustomed to close racing, you will not be as spooked when someone comes close to you.
Starts...The best place to pass.
I find that at an amatuer level, most pavement guys seem uncomfortable getting even remotely close, so I use this to my advantage.... especially on the starts. I would recommend running up the inside if possible. You will be amazed at how many guys will back off once they see you. I have never even bumped anyone in the first turn, but many will back off due to the fear of contact.
Once you're up to speed
Use the same tactic. Run up the inside if possible and watch them back-off....just make sure that they see you significantly prior to the start of the apex. This gives them time to back off and let you by.
Pass on the outside in long sweeping turns
This tactic works great because guys normally hold a close inside line on long sweeping turns making it hard to pass. Instead, pass on the outside, but lay the bike down on top of them relatively closely (like you did in practice)and they will often get uncomfortable and back off letting you by.
Close racing does not mean dangerous racing.....just ask the experts. They have contact quite often as was mentioned earlier in this thread.
Just make sure that the further back you are in the pack, the more room you leave as these riders may get spooked and cause an accident.
Since you are running up front with the better amatuers, you should be just fine getting close to them.
Wow I can't wait to get back to the track now.I have alot to learn this year and by the sounds of it alot to work on but all the things said in this thread are great and iI can't wait to get out ther and work on some of the thing that were sugested. Lowe119 remember me from last yearI pitted next to ya. If you need someone to practice with I'll practice with ya. Will got to the front together ;D
I completely agree with the 'treat others as you would want to be treated yourself' idea.
Last weekend, which was my second ever race weekend, I had a contact 'incident'. There was a guy wobbling around a turn and a faster guy was going around the outside of him but had to slow right down so I went way outside to get around both of them. The next thing I knew the guy on the inside of me swings even wider and stands the bike up. We make contact and I end up dirt-biking on a 996, which isn't a great deal of fun. By the time I stopped the bike, turned around and got back on the track it cost me four places. As a newbie amateur my view was that it's part of racing.
The feeling of being that close to other riders at speed takes a while to get used to. I found that after a few corners you get an idea of whether you can pass the guy/girl in front and also whether they hold their lines. It's a case of setting them up, looking past them and going for it or if you can't pass but can keep up then stay there and hound them (courteously of course!) until they either make a mistake or an opportunity presents itself.
Just my $ 0.02
A question and my .02... Question: first of all, I am a newbie with one road race weekend under my belt and a bunch of dirt track races when I was a kid (18 years ago). There are some corners, like turn 3 at homestead, in which the fast line takes you way wide on entry and then you cut back across to the inside at the exit to set up for the "bowl" (turn 4) which goes back to the right. A lot of the slower guys (myself included in the early practice sessions) stay farther inside and take what seems to be a more natural apex to the corner but then aren't set up for the right hander. My question is, when I go from way outside back across what looks like should be the normal lines to the inside at exit, am I "holding my line"? I was able to pass a lot of guys there on the brakes cuz they didn't want to brake as hard as me while slightly leaned to the left, but I had my nose taken away by an expert that I tried to get on the inside there when he followed the outside-in line. I took that as a race deal, and nothing more. Am I right?
Now my .02 on passing. I am still struggling with my corner speed, but I am pretty good at going late on the brakes up the inside. I also have the benefit of riding probably the fastest bike (thanks, previous owner ;) ) on the race track in two of my classes. I was very successful going way late on the inside and then basically parking it in the middle of the corner and accelerating away from them. While this will probably not work as an expert, it got me to the front of the Amateur races from the back row pretty quickly. Until I get faster in the corners, I'll keep doing this, am I a bad guy for doing this? I also got hit by a rider that got spooked because of close racing and did my own dirt tracking on a Duc. It was in turn 1 so I went from about 8th to about 19th. Definitely cost me a podium. Once again, just racing. I didn't go looking for him in the pits or cry about it, I just moved on. Racing is racing, and I am gonna try my best to give as much room to the other riders as possible, but if I'm ahead of you....until you pass me, that's my race track! Just my humble .02.
I consider a rider holding their line if they make one significant turn in motion. If you make several large steering inputs (this is not including slight corrections) it is very difficult to judge where you are headed. The line you take is not important as long as other riders can judge where you are headed.
Being late on the brakes is not always the best approach. One trick I learned about increasing cornering speed is to apply the brakes at the same point, but let off the brakes sooner. Once you get used to the new speed, you can move your braking zone closer to the corner (new brakes on marker, old brakes off marker). Repeat the process.
QuoteBeing late on the brakes is not always the best approach. One trick I learned about increasing cornering speed is to apply the brakes at the same point, but let off the brakes sooner. Once you get used to the new speed, you can move your braking zone closer to the corner (new brakes on marker, old brakes off marker). Repeat the process.
Thanks for the free tips, I am gonna try that at the next round in a few weeks. I noticed that I would tend to let off the throttle at the same time as everybody else, but lay off the brakes longer after lifting and pass into the turn. Do you have a suggestion for the easiest way to get myself going directly from accelerating to braking without ending up going straight into the gravel or bouncing down the tarmac? It seems like I should be able to accelerate a hair longer, then brake a bit sooner. I'm lost. ;D
The instant you let off the throttle, get your fingers on the brake lever and apply the brakes as hard and as fast as you can without excessive dive from the front end. Too much brake too fast will pitch the bike on its nose and ruin the attitude of the bike entering the corner.
What I mean is, don't just clamp down as hard as you can the instant you get your hooks on the lever. As you feed the brake, keep the bike settled with your feet, feel the pegs, feel the attitude of the bike. After you realize the attitude of the bike is good, squeeze like no tomorrow.
Initially, the distance it takes to feel the bike into the corner from first application of the brakes to 100% braking will be quite long. As you practice, get better feel of the bike, and become more experienced, the distance will compress and you will embarass guys on big 4-valvers. You will know the bike is settled in a splitsecond, where as now it may take a second or more before you let off, feed the brake, then go for it.
Just my advice, please don't go over the bars or start locking up the front wheel. Keep the rear planted. Ducatis rule!
Matt
Like Chops said, going straight from throttle to brakes is the goal. Using the rear brake before the front can help settle the bike and cause less dive when using the front brake. Personally I don't use it very much, but I know some racers who do.
The amount of dive can be controlled with oil level in the forks. If you have the proper spring rate but the bike seems to dive too much under hard braking, try raising the oil level, I go about 5mm at a time. Many manuals list a maximum oil level. Higher oil level stiffens the last third of suspension travel. Adding compression damping does not accomplish the same thing, it only slows the rate of dive, not the amount (unless you are on the brakes for a short period of time).
My main goal when riding is to be smooth, smooth with the brakes, smooth with the throttle, smooth turn in, etc. Trying to be faster tends to slow you down. Be smooth and speed will follow.
I did a couple races at Summit Point this weekend and was thinking about the exact topic... This was my second race weekend (I've also done a few track days with NESBA). I was stuck in the heavy weight as the middle weight was full :( on an FZR600 this was not good... Both races I was stuck behind the same guy the whole time. He'd pull away like mad on the straight but by T5 I'd be screaming "get out of the way" again. A couple times in the carousel I pulled up right next to him (on the outside) but was always to scared about him coming out on me. So I have 2 more DAL's (dead ass last) to add to my growing list.
Is there a school in the North East or Mid Atlantic that can help me with this? Also with NESBA (the track day club I ride with) you're not allowed to pass in the turns, are there any track day groups that will let you? Any input is greatly appreciated as it was a pretty discouraging weekend.
Try
http://www.penguinracing.com/
Most of their schools are at Loudon,NH.
In that instance you were probably right in being nervous about the pass. Many amature riders will see you going around them and try to speed up. Screwing both of you. Even if he doesn't loose it, you'll be on the wrong side of the track for the lefthander. As the year progresses you'll learn who you can trust and who gets excited. Till then, drop back and get a roll going to time most of your passes to get by on the exit on the inside. That way someone elses mistake won't take you out. DAL sure beats DNF. I spent most of my weekend regaining my nerve to turn in with anticapation a nitwit would try to stuff me and loose it again.
At Summit, I did lousy, felt lousy, didn't get my bike running close to right till racetime, my laptimes were a disaster. Talk about dicouraging. Met some nice people and can't wait till the 25th.
Quote Also with NESBA (the track day club I ride with) you're not allowed to pass in the turns, are there any track day groups that will let you?
www.teampromotion.com ProMotion is a great group to ride track days with. I've always been impressed with how well run their events are, and how much track time I've gotten at their events. In their "racer" groups, there is no restriction (other than common courtesy and etiquette) on passing.
QuoteAt Summit, I did lousy, felt lousy, didn't get my bike running close to right till racetime, my laptimes were a disaster. Talk about dicouraging.
Doug, that sucks. I was pretty discouraged being at work on Saturday. Hopefully neither of us will have to work on our bikes on Memorial day weekend.
You've got to get that Buell out in SuperTwins! Smaller grids, fewer scary moments!
I'm Replying on my experiences that I've had since y'alls advice............
I went expert and raced Road America for my first race. Everytime I went into a corner with someone, I thought about this thread. I hung side-by-side with a few people and learned a ton about how I can come through corners differently. I learned that even experts willl give you room to do your own line and that I can 'squeeze' someone off if I have the upperhand. I'm getting closer to a 'racer' ;D
In summary- They tell you that the guy in front has the line, but I'm thinking that you should always challenge them if you think you can hang.........Isn't that what racing is all about????
Challange! That's what it is. When you find someone you can run with that gives equal respect and you end up swaping spots all race. That is the most fun there is. No matter if it's for 1st or 41st. They're likely to be a good friend by the next race. A little squeeze here, a little pinch there, as long as nobody is riding over their head chopping somebody off, or doing anything unpredictable, all's fun in my book.
Bernie, In the last race I ran on Sunday I ended up 5th so it wasn't a complete loss. Still my laptimes were way off. I think most of the leaders went home after lunch. ;D I was talking with Bill D. afterwards about laptimes and if he doesn't gain 80lbs I won't catch him even if I get to last years pace. I checked the rulebook and it doesn't even mention a lasso so I still have hope. ;D
Don't need a lasso, rule book doesn't say anything about reaching over and tapping on your oponents kill switch ::)
Now now, this is about etiquette. The principle should be for me to go faster not for the compettion to go slower ;)
"The principle should be for me to go faster not for the compettion to go slower"
This may be lame but I can't help it...
Top 10 ways to slow you competitor down...
10: You know, draining your oil & gas saves you 30 pounds!
9: Each pound of pressure you let out of your tires is a pound less your bike ways.
8: If you cut through the access road it will take 15 seconds off your lap times.
7: See, it says right here in the new rule book, you MUST safety wire your gloves to your wrist.
6: Snell certified is just a waste of money, DOT certified is fine, after all, DOT it is a goverment standard.
5: You don't need a cooling system on your GSXR if you're never idling, just look at all the air cooled bikes.
4: Don't worry about piston to valve clearances, you know you NEED a bigger cam.
3: While 1 minute board is up, look at the guy next to you and say "that's alot of oil your burning, even for a Buell".
2: While 1 minute board is up, look at the guy next to you and say "you know your fuel valve's off".
And the #1 way to slow your competitor down...
1: It's not sugar, it's a gas tank Pixy Stick
Ok, now the last ones are giving me some ideas.... ;D
Quote1: It's not sugar, it's a gas tank Pixy Stick
LMAO!!! ;D
I wish somebody would've told me #3 (minus the Buell part)...lol. ;D
Quote"The principle should be for me to go faster not for the compettion to go slower"
This may be lame but I can't help it...
Top 10 ways to slow you competitor down...
10: You know, draining your oil & gas saves you 30 pounds!
9: Each pound of pressure you let out of your tires is a pound less your bike ways.
8: If you cut through the access road it will take 15 seconds off your lap times.
7: See, it says right here in the new rule book, you MUST safety wire your gloves to your wrist.
6: Snell certified is just a waste of money, DOT certified is fine, after all, DOT it is a goverment standard.
5: You don't need a cooling system on your GSXR if you're never idling, just look at all the air cooled bikes.
4: Don't worry about piston to valve clearances, you know you NEED a bigger cam.
3: While 1 minute board is up, look at the guy next to you and say "that's alot of oil your burning, even for a Buell".
2: While 1 minute board is up, look at the guy next to you and say "you know your fuel valve's off".
And the #1 way to slow your competitor down...
1: It's not sugar, it's a gas tank Pixy Stick
Too funny!! Never seen this post before, really good to read especially since this was a small concern since I'll be seeing more traffic this year!
Quote3: While 1 minute board is up, look at the guy next to you and say "that's alot of oil your burning, even for a Buell".
Oh shit... I think I wet myself! :o ;D
QuoteOh shit... I think I wet myself! :o ;D
Naw, thats just a leak in your catheder bag old man. ;D ;D ;D
QuoteNaw, thats just a leak in your catheder bag old man. ;D ;D ;D
Go fix your bike or somethin...... >:( :P ;) ;D
QuoteGo fix your bike or somethin...... >:( :P ;) ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D