Okay, so yesterday at Gingerman in the Middleweight Superbike race, a bit of controversy arose. I shall now describe it per MY views, understanding and interpretation...
This was a 7 lap sprint race and had a fairly large grid. I was dicing with 4 guys somewhere in the top 10. We had received the crossed White/Green flags indicating 4 LAPS had been complete.
Coming into T9, on (now) lap 5, the red flag came out.
We backed off and came off the track.
Exiting the track, I looked down pit road. There were NO BIKES and NO OFFICIALS. Nobody ahead of me went down pit road, they all returned to their pits.
I went about 100 - 150 feet down pit road and some guy was motioning for us to turn back. Without much thought, I spun around and went back to my paddock (which was RIGHT on the other side of pit wall, right near the entrance/exit of the pit road). By the time I got there, there were people motioning to go back out, so we did.
We waited on hot-pit road for a few, and they said they were restarting the race and running 3 more laps because the entire grid did not get to the green/white flags.
5 of us (myself included) were disqualified from the restart as we left the hot-pit lane.
I didn't argue as I knew it would not make a difference.
Did this make a difference in my season? Yeah. It may very well have cost me 10th place overall due to a couple of precious points and a hit to my performance index.
Thinking about it today, a couple of questions come to mind.
1. Why were there no officials on pit road indicating what to do?
2. In a 7 lap race, where is "half-way"?
The whole thing in my mind is a shitty situation. I understand that I left the hot-pit lane which violates the rules. I get that. But by the time I was at T9 of 11, working on finishing LAP 5 of a 7 lap race, I had resigned to the fact that the race was indeed more than 1/2 way complete.
Getting waved off the track by somebody who had no official say was really stupid on their part as well as ours, but in the lack of CCS official representation, with the knowledge of where we were in the race, it seemed appropriate.
And finally, I would bet LARGE sums of money that there were more than 5 people who went into the paddock and returned to the hot-pit lane. There were surely more than 5 between T11 and where I saw the red flag in T9.
It's over and done with, bitching won't make a difference, so please understand that's not what I'm doing. What I'm more over doing, is trying to get anybody else's take on what happened and (a) how to avoid it in the future, and (b) how to possibly handle it differently on the CCS side if something like this happens again.
i agree that was a bunch of bs
i was in the lead by 10 seconds and got the half way flag and the next lap just as i got to the start finish i got the red flag
i assumed that the race was over but i saw everyone in the pits (because i was the last one in), so i went to the pits and waited to hear the bad newsw that it wasnt over and that 5 people were dq for leaving the hot pit, to top it off i had a bad restart and got second in that race :banghead:
but hey, at least they let you re-enter the race after leaving the hot-pit lane...
Who told you to leave hot pit lane? A situation like this will in the end slow down the race day as in the future you are not going to trust anyone telling you to go to the pits. The next time you see a red flag mid race my bet is you aren't going to leave pit lane for anyone and that will cause race delays. CCS needs to address this situation and make assurances to those that were harmed this weekend. Wasn't there a CCS official standing at the end of pitout all day? I know there was a guy there all day I just thought he was CCS.
Don't you know the rules? And some guy motioning you out of hot pit lane wasn't an official. Having never raced CCS before, I thought it best to head to hot pit road because I know AMA does the same thing.
I'd imagine, if there are no offials, you don't bother taking any chances and head to hot pit. Which brings me to another point, always be sure you've got enough fuel in your bike for a few extra laps.
I do like the way CCS grids folks on their position from the last fully completed lap.
Those of you who didn't go directly to hot pit should have known the rules.
Um, yeah, racing 101...
Red flag: proceed to the hot pit and wait for instructions.
Leavin' the hot pit is leaving the race with no possiblity for return unless you have been instructed to go to the cold pit.
Sucks, but the rules exist.
Wad a bike up on a red flag, you can't go in and change bikes and come back out. Leaving the hot pit would allow that. As for half way...anything is up to the race director.
I knew the rules. I wrote that clearly above...
I guess I just became complacent in the fact that for EVERY red-flag incident I've been through in the last 6 years of racing with CCS, there have been officials clearly indicating ON PIT ROAD what the riders were to do (stay on or go off).
Adding it all up, I made a choice that in retrospect was obviously wrong.
My opinion still remains though that in the future, this situation should be handled better by the officials.
There should have been an official at pit out/in indicating what to do, like they do in every other event I've raced (which is several hundred) over the last 6 years.
Fuel wasn't an issue, and doesn't even come into play as you can add fuel to the bike on the hot pit road during a red-flag. The "can't leave hot pit road" is to prevent a rider from switching bikes.
i never left the hot pit lane
and i always have at least 1 extra gallon of gas
Ultimately, like I said, it doesn't make a crap bit of difference now because it's over and done with. And the decision to leave the hot pit lane was my own.
I just wanted to get this out there so that CCS could make note of the scenario and work to help prevent it next time.
Again (before anyone jumps), the rules are clearly stated. That is the racer's responsibility. However, that doesn't prevent CCS from "assisting" us by clearly indicating what we should do (like they have done in every other red-flag scenario I've been in until this one)
:pop:
Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2006, 02:08:44 PM
I just wanted to get this out there so that CCS could make note of the scenario and work to help prevent it next time.
Again (before anyone jumps), the rules are clearly stated. That is the racer's responsibility. However, that doesn't prevent CCS from "assisting" us by clearly indicating what we should do (like they have done in every other red-flag scenario I've been in until this one)
LOL, sorry for jumping your shit, Jeff... It just becomes a situation of helping or enabling. Racing's a big liability, so are track days, so that's what the rules are for. Sucks for you, and you knew the rules, but, yeah, we often look to someone in a white shirt for guidance. But in their absence, well, back to the rules. How was the rest of the weekend?
Who was yelling at who rite by the tower later in the day. Probably around race 13 or 14? I saw someone from across the pits yelling and screaming at someone else on a bike. Then a bunch of people rushed up and pulled the guy back. And I heard really loud "I'll KICK THE SHIT OUT YOU"
Did this situation have anything to do with that?
Now, we're talkin'!
Grasshopper, that was JB. I'll just kick back and see if he comments on it. It had nothing to do with us getting tossed from that race.
Dave, the entire weekend was awesome. Probably the most perfect weather I've ever seen at Gingerman, let alone Gingerman in October. Small turnout, but some REAL good racing just the same. Seemed to be a relatively safe weekend with Barb Key's car being the only real casualty...
Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2006, 03:08:48 PM
...with Barb Key's car being the only real casualty...
Ok, more info...
Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2006, 03:14:23 PM
Ok, more info...
Middle of the page, post by AM #76 (http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,15009.45.html)
Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2006, 03:14:23 PM
Ok, more info...
Rider crashed and was injured.
Car was borrowed for trip to hospital.
Doctors advised rider not to drive.
Rider drove car through red light.
All involved in red light bit are okay, car ... me not know.
Good thing I grabbed my trophies otherwise I would have never found this out!
Barb was probably the one passing the trophies out.
Jeff,
Regarding the number of laps quoted in your original post -
I'm not positive about this but I think since they were 7 lap races half way may have been shown on lap 3 during that race. As racerhall stated we got the red flag as we came on to the straight working lap 4. When the race restarted we ran 4 laps to complete the original seven.
Regarding leaving hot pit -
It sucks people got disqualified but the rules are the rules. They did mention at the riders meeting that they were a little short on staff this weekend so maybe that's why there was no one there to direct riders where to go but I've been in red flag situations before at different orgs/events where there are no officials directing riders to hot pit. I guess it's kinda like Supersport post tech, no one directs you there, it's just something you always do. Anyways, like I said - sucks some where disqualified but lesson learned.
By the way - I thought the officials did a good job of handling the situation and the re-grid.
Regarding the fight/argument -
Don't know the details on the fight/argument by the tower but it sure was the buzz around the paddock - really don't like to hear about this kinda thing.
The red flag came out before everyone had completed half-race.
I think the fight was started by a WERA rider... Just kidding!
With it being combined EX/AM and fairly decent size grids considering the weekend (16 experts and probably just as many if not more AM's), we were into lapped traffic, so I don't know where they were counting from. I'm sure there were people who hadn't completed a 3rd lap. Either which way though, it doesn't matter... That's why I didn't argue it. I was wrong, plain and simple.
And other than nobody being present to start the process of regrid or calling of the race, yes, the re-grid went very smooth. I've always been impressed with how quickly CCS gets out entire new grid sheets.
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 09, 2006, 03:36:16 PM
The red flag came out before everyone had completed half-race.
Ummm yeah. That's why it was restarted. That was never a question...
Ok now more about the fight. What happened?
Quote from: r1owner on October 09, 2006, 03:40:08 PM
I think the fight was started by a WERA rider... Just kidding!
I didn't bump anyone last weekend. Cut off #49 a few times, but no bumping. :D
Quote from: grasshopper on October 09, 2006, 04:15:58 PM
Ok now more about the fight. What happened?
Okay, we'll say that expert rider "A" was pushed off the track on Sat by AM rider "A" while battling with AM rider "B".
Expert rider "A" patches his stuff up and comes back out later in the day on Sat only to have his front fender come off and act as a skidplate for the front tire while going into T7 (right behind me I might add). There's crash #2. By now you can tell, Expert rider "A" is having a pretty rough weekend.
On Sunday, Expert rider "A" again pieces his stuff together and goes out to do battle.
Late in the day, Expert rider "A" goes into T11 only to meet Amateur rider "B" at the apex who ended up running Expert rider "A" a bit wide and into the sand.
Well, that was about all that one man could take, and he got a little agitated as you can imagine...
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 09, 2006, 04:17:23 PM
I didn't bump anyone last weekend. Cut off #49 a few times, but no bumping. :D
well... we didnt bump cuz i kept backing off!!! had i not... we'd be bumpin. no worries it was still fun! :thumb:
There ya have it folks, from the man himself. No bumping, but I did catch him starring at my girlfriend's ass more than once. :D
I watched this race and was confused by the re-grid after the red flag too. Brian had the lead at the half-way point. Leader crosses the line at the half-way/crossed flags point, and a red flag ends the race at the positions held. Where in the rule book does it state that EVERY racer in an event has to be across that half-way point for it to be officially 1/2 way? Is it just a RD call?
In a 7-lap sprint race, the crossed "halfway" flags are shown (as a courtesy) on the 4th lap.
In order for a sprint race to be called "complete", ALL riders must have completed the half-way point (in other words, the leader would have crossed the start/finish line and would technically be working lap 5).
Maybe a rule change suggestion? After the first rider of a race recieves the halfway flag, if the race is red flagged at any point thereafter it can be deemed complete?
Not that it would have made a difference since I was in last place anyways .. but when I came off the track I didn't know if the race was over and the people on hot pit were waiting for the next race or if they were re-gridding for a restart. It sure felt like the race was half over.
Since I'm pretty new to all this, I decided to leave the track because if it was the next event, I didnt know how I would have known before they released everyone for the warmup lap. Someone there to direct us would have been nice and I woulda got to run a few more laps.
On a side note; I didnt see the red flag until I was pretty deep into turn 11 ... I made the turn onto the front straight and it hit me that I was right at the track exit and I could have gone straight off. Not to make excuses, but this was the first time I've ever gotten the red flag with about half a second to decide if I should exit.
My question is, should I have exited ? as I did my long jackass lap around I was thinking that it may have been the right thing to do anyways to complete the corner, since someone behind me might on the outside not have seen the flag... but at the same time, someone on my inside might have seen it and decided to go straight.
I felt like an idiot as I went around the whole track again and can't decide if it was the right thing to do or not =/
You're an idiot because you go to OU, not because you kept going on the red flag.
Never, neeevveeerrr deviate from the line you're taking unless there's an incident right in front of you. Be it a red flag, a rider that was bumped off the track or anything you care to think of - there might be someone coming up on you quick, especially if you're towards the back - and he's depending on you to maintain your line. (Hopefully, he's maintaining a proper line too).
The victory lap was not a jackass move, you may have plowed into someone if you stood it up to pit in.
Nice to meet ya, by the way. :ass:
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 09, 2006, 07:03:37 PM
You're an idiot because you go to OU, not because you kept going on the red flag.
LOL!
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 09, 2006, 07:03:37 PM
Never, neeevveeerrr deviate from the line you're taking unless there's an incident right in front of you. Be it a red flag, a rider that was bumped off the track or anything you care to think of - there might be someone coming up on you quick, especially if you're towards the back - and he's depending on you to maintain your line. (Hopefully, he's maintaining a proper line too).
The victory lap was not a jackass move, you may have plowed into someone if you stood it up to pit in.
+1
nice meeting ya also, and yeah OU sucks ;P
thanks for the answer.. it wasnt a matter of standing it up, it was that I was braking at the end of the back straight.. all I had to do was not turn in and I would have been heading back to the pits...
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 09, 2006, 04:47:11 PM
but I did catch him starring at my girlfriend's ass more than once. :D
......uhhhhh............ :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2006, 11:57:30 AM
1. Why were there no officials on pit road indicating what to do?
Jeff,
The Pit-in/Pit-out arrangment at Gingerman creates some problems. I have only been working Grid or Pit-out there since 2002 so I don't know how it was handled before.
The normal CCS official placement is to have the Pit-out person staged near the Turn 1 end of Hot Pit for 2 reasons: to keep better control of riders who may try to enter a 'Red" track thru the guard rail break near the Turn 1 end of Hot Pit and to provide an extra set of eyes to assist the Starter in safely launching the 2nd wave on Starts thru Turn 1.
I don't recall a time when we have been able to position an official at the Turn 11 end of Hot Pit. (I do believe there may have been a corner worker stationed between the track at Turn 11 and the Pit-in road, but his responsibilities were to assist any riders who may over shoot Turn 11 and end up in the gravel pit.)
At the time of the Red flag I was standing with the other Grid Marshall near the guard rail at about row 4 or 5 of the Grid. There would have been no physical way for us to get from there to the Pit-in turn into the Paddock before bikes started coming off the track. As someone else mentioned, we were short staffed last weekend, but that didn't affect how this incident was handled.
As I said before, Gingerman is a different layout than most other Tracks. Since Blackhawk is the Track most of the Midwest riders have run, I'll use that as an example. A CCS official is positioned at Pit-out to ensure that bikes don't enter the Track until we have a confirmation on a "Green" Track. When we have a Red flag situation, due to the location of Pit-in, riders must pass by the Grid Marshalls to enter the paddock. Status of the race while on Hot Pit is easily communicated. Obviously, this isn't the case at Gingerman.
I'm convinced that this was a case of the 1st person off the track making either a bad decision to leave Hot Pit or else a decision that he was going into the Paddock, regardless of whether the race was done or not. Other riders behind him may have "assumed" that the riders ahead of them "knew" that the raced was called complete and without a thought, followed the leader into the paddock.
I think everyone involved will agree that the sequence of events that led up to 5 riders being DQ'd wasn't good for anyone!!
Rick, you're right. I was thinking about it last night, and in order to exit at BHF whether for race end or red flag, you have to go past a CCS official. Gingerman is not that way...
Ahh well... lessons learned...
Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2006, 02:46:28 PMwe often look to someone in a white shirt for guidance.
The only announcements we hear over the radios are for corners. We don't hear tech and scoring or anything else, they are on different channels. The only calls I hear are which flag to wave. :biggrin:
If you guys want to be more informed at the track, go get a scanner and you can hear the whole thing. :thumb:
Quote from: Suzy on October 10, 2006, 09:03:23 AM
If you guys want to be more informed at the track, go get a scanner and you can hear the whole thing. :thumb:
Sure thing. I'll strap one to my back before heading out.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2416884&cp=2032052.2032072&parentPage=family
looks portable enough to fit somewhere, maybe :biggrin:
also looks out of stock, so it's popular. :thumb:
Quote from: G-reg on October 09, 2006, 05:42:34 PM
Maybe a rule change suggestion? After the first rider of a race recieves the halfway flag, if the race is red flagged at any point thereafter it can be deemed complete?
That'd be analogous to the leading rider taking the checkered flag and calling it a race. It's got to be the last lap that everyone crossed the line so final position is accounted for.
Quote from: Plarposaurus Wrecks on October 10, 2006, 10:39:16 AM
That'd be analogous to the leading rider taking the checkered flag and calling it a race. It's got to be the last lap that everyone crossed the line so final position is accounted for.
Where we run into problems (I think) is that on a lot of these races (combined EX/AM), we run into lapped traffic by lap 2 or 3. So the "entire field" becomes subjective at that point.
I understand your point and don't think necessarily that the lead guy should make the determination, but the tail guy should be clearly defined. Perhaps it is and I just don't know about it. I race, I don't score, so I couldn't really say...
Hey, better yet just found it, check this one out. Get the headset for your helmet and I think you good to go!!! :thumb:
http://www.zanderradiosystems.com/specials.htm
Quote from: Jeff on October 10, 2006, 11:30:44 AMI understand your point and don't think necessarily that the lead guy should make the determination, but the tail guy should be clearly defined. Perhaps it is and I just don't know about it. I race, I don't score, so I couldn't really say...
You're right, but it's also race direction's job to get all the races done before the day at the track is up. I do believe that the novices ... sorry, amatures (te he) should be gridded together on the restart, not on overall running order. They are seperate races.
Exactly what the rulebook says, me not know, because Jane no send me rule book yet. Unga bunga. :p
Whoa! The AM's were gridded with the EX's on the restart? Wow... didn't know that.
Doesn't anyone read the rulebook?
M. When an event is stopped with less than two laps completed, a complete restart
will be performed, using original grid positions.
(1.) In the case of timed events, the clock will continue to run during the red flag,
regardless of the number of laps completed.
O. Should a sprint race be stopped with more than two laps completed, but less than
one half of the posted distance, the field will be re-gridded for the restart.
(1.) Riders will be given credit for the laps completed as they cross the finish line
in the lap preceding the lap in which the red flag has been displayed. The riders
will be re-gridded as to the running order of that last complete lap. This means
the position on the track, not the position in the race.
(a.) Any rider(s) deemed to be responsible for the red-flag incident will be
placed on the last row of the new grid.
(2.) The remaining laps will be run, less credit for those completed, in an effort to
complete the total distance posted.
(3.) Should the red flag be displayed in a race that has seen more than 50% of the
total posted laps completed, the race may be considered complete.
(4.) Should the red flag be displayed in a race that has seen more than 80% of the
total posted laps completed, the race will be considered complete and there will
be no restart.
Once the race is over 50% complete, it does not have to restart, choice of the race director.
After 80% - no restart.
After 2 complete laps regrids are done by running order - that is the order the bikes are on
the track, not by race order (leader, 2nd, 3rd, etc). First on grid will be the leader followed by all bikes on track
in the order of the last complete lap. If there were 5 lappers between 1st and 2nd, there will be 5 bikes
between 1st and 2nd place on the grid. It is done that way for simplicity and speed. Much easier to get
running order than race order.
Yeah, this is the second time in less than a year that my car was involved in an accident in which it received damages. The best part is neither one was my fault!