Motorcycle Racing Forum

This question was asked of me recently and I thought I would share it with everybody. What are the pros and cons? Is it even possible to fit it in the practice schedule?
I think it would be safer. However, I believe it gives me an advantage to be able to practice with riders who are more experienced and faster than I am (me being an amateur).

There isn't enough practice anyway.  They need to break out MW's and HW's first.  LW's already have their own practice but HW's don't.  So those who have two bikes only get to practice on one of them.

If Am's are finding it scary maybe it's because they're being freight-trained by an Ex on a 1000 while riding their stock 600.....  just a thought.

In the midwest the schedule generally states that experts and amatures practice seperatly until raceday and then they end up combining groups 1&2 and 3&4 for 15 minute sessions instead of 5 minute sessions. Again this is different from region to region but at least here you have to race with experts and amatures on the same track. I would much rather practice with the experts (I'm an amature)  than race with them so why on earth would I want to race with them and practice without them?  Most riders I know run just a little harder in a race than they do in a practice. Just my 2 cents.

they have never combined ex/am practice here in Mid Atlantic where the grids are pretty big.

It is a bad ideal if you have more than 20 riders I think.

The problem between am/ex is not necessary speed and laptime, it is predictability. If I see a white plate on track, no matter how slow they are, I can somewhat trust that they have enough experience riding on a track to not go out of their way too much, get too out of line. Where as a AM could be his 2nd time ever on the track, and he could make some mistakes without warning, provocation, or reasoning.  That is where the danger is. We depend on each other track, I would pass experts much closer than I would am's.

MW splits EX and AM... and then odd/even.  That's how 1&2/3&4 get combined.  You won't see MW/HW/UL EX and AM on the track at the same time during practice.

Group 5 is LW... which is all mooshed up together.  If folks continue to migrate to the LW classes, it could potentially end up being split, too.

In the Mid-Atlantic LW practice is almost always combined.  On a regular weekend there can still be more than 40 riders, amateurs and experts, in one session.  However, for me I haven't had any safety related issues with it.  The density just sucks if you end up where everyone has bunched up.   One year at Barber there were 80 or so bikes in the LW practice.  :wtf:

I think CCS has used good judgement when deciding whether or not to split the LW sessions this year.

As another amateur in the MW region, I have to agree with Hawk. If I am going to be on the track at the same time as the experts --- I need to acclimate to that and be prepared for it. I assume that experts where not always experts and for a least a short time they had to do the same thing.  On a personal note, I also think that running with the experts raises the benchmark for me --- call it peer teaching (sorry I am teacher and its an occupational hazard).  ::)

As a tall skinny expert from Pekin keeps telling me - its the only way you get used to running with the fast crowd.:thumb:

PS -- I cannot comment for the other regions as I have no experience there.

Keep em together, I think it is good for the fast riders to see what all of us slow riders are doing around the track.  It can give a person a better view of how to safely get around someone with lines somthing less than consistant.  the groups will be mixed if they are small anyway (like in the LW group)

Quote from: AM_#76 on September 27, 2006, 04:10:09 PM
Keep em together, I think it is good for the fast riders to see what all of us slow riders are doing around the track.  It can give a person a better view of how to safely get around someone with lines somthing less than consistant.  the groups will be mixed if they are small anyway (like in the LW group)

Guy, I'm not sure you can count yourself among the "us slow riders" group  anymore.   :thumb:

Being a real , real new novice/amateur, all I can say is the experts pass me swiflty, and cleanly.  In addition, I see more moves/lines/angles from the experts too.. :thumb:

And old adage of mine is that if I had the choice, I would rather be a "bum around kings" than a "king around bums"..Hope I didn't lose anybody with that one... :biggrin:

Plain talk, IMO, amateurs, praticing & racing with experts is the equal to being a "bum around kings".. :cheers:

I think experts hate practicing with amatuers. amatuers dont mind practicing with experts.

Quote from: r6_philly on September 27, 2006, 04:37:45 PM
I think experts hate practicing with amatuers. amatuers dont mind practicing with experts.

That's the census with the amateurs.  Any more Experts want to comment.

Jason,

It's all very well and good that Amateurs want to practice with Experts so they can learn faster.  I agreed last year when I was an Amateur.  However, last weekend I was t-boned and blessed with an ankle plate, 10 screws and a broken wrist by an amateur who was competing his first weekend.  He saw me come out of pit lane, apparently forgot to brake for the very fast Jennings T1, target fixated on me and sent me to the moon.

You can guess my vote.

However, I'll see you out there again soon.  Either I'll be back for Homestead, or your fast ass will be Expert next year! 

Scott

I don't think am and expert should practice together. Having dropped to lightweights this year where the exp and am practices are sometimes combined, I don't like it. Practice is to work on setup and getting up to race pace. You can't do that if you spend the session dodging riders as much as 10-15 seconds a lap slower. Not saying all ams are slow . When I run a combined practice I try to make sure I go out right at the front, by the second lap I am fighting traffic. Combined races are different because by the time we start lapping the slower ams they are usually strung out so you can pick through them.

In a race Amateurs and Experts are seperated from the start with generally only the faster Amateurs getting up into the Expert field during the race, then later in the race the fastest Experts catch up to the slowest Amateurs who should hopefully be in somewhat of their 'groove' by that time.

A big difference with practice is the fact that everyone would be mixed together from the start, and the whole getting acclimated to race pace for the day generally will happen faster for experienced Experts who can go out and turn fast laps almost immediately.

In general, I don't mind the mixed Am/Ex Lightweight practice sessions in CCS. I choose to go out with that group vs. the Expert-only group. Mostly because I'd rather be the one deciding when to pass vs. having someone else on a much faster bike decide that for me. Yes, slower traffic sometimes makes it difficult to get a clean lap in, but at least I get to see the lines and behavior of some of the racers I'll lap during a race, which can be helpful.

That said, I don't like the combined practice groups used by the TrackAddix CCS GP region. It seemed there were people who self-selected into the fast group that didn't belong there, as well as others who didn't really belong in the medium group. Didn't help matters that I got taken out at Gateway but an over-eager Am on a 600 who highsided right in front of me. That sucked.

I share the same opinion as PJ, Combined can get hairy, but for amatuers it helps in progression. My bike is legal for LW so I am designated a combined sticker, though I prefer to run in Expert because I am up to speed and traffic really hurts getting a fast lap in. Then again if you need to work on traffic skills combined is helpul.

Something for the experts to consider is the fact that a seperate practice means that the newer amatures are going to see you for the first time at FULL race pace, I would venture to say that not too many current experts held a smooth line the first few times they were passed as noobs by an expert at full speed. I think that the combined practice leads to a safer day overall. I'm a first year amature but in lightweight class I am able to pass a number of experts in practice and racing so I'm not sure the fast lap argument holds much water. Being as track density is much greater durning practice than would be allowed in a race I don't think anyone in the organization is expecting record laptimes in practice. Further more out of town experts coming in for a special event (solo/team challange etc) will be using practice to find their line on a track they have never seen, they will be trying several different lines throughout practice so if you are expecting that since they are expert they will be consistent and right on the race line then your fast lap may have serious consequences for both riders. Practice is practice, a great time for experts to see who they will be lapping and amatures to see some of the passes they will experience in the race or just to scuff in some new rubber or check out a new gear. I've probably said too much so I'll just be quiet now.

While I have great sympathy (even empathy) for SRob (and others of similar fate) and sincerely hope he can recover quickly, the Expert whine about Am's doesn't hold any water for me.  All 3 of my "caused by another rider" crashes this year happened when I was t-boned by a so-called "Expert."

Bad riding occurs regardless of plate color, the white plate has no magic attached to it and certainly has no inherent tendency to improves one's skills and IMHO is given out way too easily and often.

The bottom line is that it's racing and riders have to be alert, pay attention (perhaps be somewhat considerate?) at ALL times, not just at race time.

So for me there is no need necessarily to separate Ex's and Am's (unless pure numbers dictate otherwise).  But there is a very real need for riders to get practice time on both/all of their bikes.  That "other" club recognizes and provides that.  CCS currently (in the MA and SE at least) does not.

Just my .02.  flame on.

just eliminate the am and expert division , then there would be no more sandbagging either. Some of you guys want to practice together lets all race together too. Then contingency could pay top 10 or double to top 5.

Quote from: ahastings on September 28, 2006, 10:21:55 AM
just eliminate the am and expert division , then there would be no more sandbagging either. Some of you guys want to practice together lets all race together too. Then contingency could pay top 10 or double to top 5.

There are just as many sandbaggers in expert as amatuer, always will be sandbagging.  And at this point with such a pleathora(sp) of trackdays/raceschools, a level playing field has become so murky and convoluted(sp).....I think it is an impossiblity anymore.

Personally I never go fast in practice, just practice hitting my lines....so am/ex issues really don't affect me.  The hot-lap is where I start to get my game on.
I can see problems for experts who go fast in practice though.  I also agree with the sentiment that for the most part experts are smoother and more predictable.  Ex and Am's both make mistakes, but I think through lack of experience, Am's do it more consistantly.

One thing I have noticed is that to me, it seems that some of the Am's are overly aggressive with being overtaken.  You are not even racing with them, but they will kill themselves to keep you behind when you are showing them a wheel to get by.  Almost have to rudely stuff the sometimes.  Maybe not, just seems like it to me.  No biggie.

I was suprised to see the results... I assumed everyone was for seprate practice sessions.

I am for keeping them split.. or if combined.. keep the numbers down!  I think thats why the GP series has worked for me, the numbers have been low enough that there isnt much congestion on the track.  at least I didnt struggle with it.  That and there is SO much practice time on saturday that hurrying to get up to speed and get work done is not necessary

My concern is the 4-5 laps you get in a typical MW session is VERY little time to really get anything done other than warm up.  Its hard to get to speed where setup changes need to be made... cruising around passing slower riders isnt condusive to what I need to practice for.  There are 2nd and 3rd year AM's that can defiantely (and do definately) run with some of the experts.  If the complaints are coming from them... disregard em.  They should be running Ex anyway.  talk to the first year Am's... I know I sure as hell had ZERO desire to be practicing with experts last year.  There where plenty of faster AM's that I could hook up with and learn a thing or 2 from.


I think it was Dafan that said it... its not about speed, but predictability.  I survived the meatgrinder MW AM races last year, no desire to get back into that mix even for practice for the reasons that baller mentioned.

Speedballer, your both slow and unpredictable, you need your own practice session!!   :kicknuts:   :biggrin:

but you mentioned expert sandbagging... that confuses me... I dont see how an expert can sandbag??

I don't mind running with Am's. Heck a lot are faster than me anyway.

Quote from: tstruyk on September 28, 2006, 03:41:36 PM
but you mentioned expert sandbagging... that confuses me... I dont see how an expert can sandbag??

I didn't mean it as any type of disrespect. 
Everyone has their own ideas what sandbagging is (maybe winning, maybe multi years, maybe lots of schools, maybe whatever), some people cry foul, some don't care.  I never really cared, I just wanted to catch the 'next' guy in front of me.
But there always seems to be complaining about fast/sandbaggers in Ams....I always felt it was the same deal in expert.  AMA guys doing club racing, Enduarance teams with years and years of experience and seemingly unlimited funds, Club racers making a good living from bouncing from weekend-to-weekend cleaning up the club races.

Again, no disrespect to anyone, and personally I don't care if someone is sandbagging.  I think it is a non-issue, but I also see it as prevalent in Ex as it is in Am.

What about running practice sessions by lap times instead of by class, I know LRRS does something like this?

you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

lapping a slow AM? not all AM's are so slow. And most expert races are not combined in MA. and in sprints you dont catch up to the mid pack AM's to lap them. only 1 or 2.

Put it this way, mid pack Experts will be put into advance group at trackdays while mid pack AM's will be put into intermediate group. If a trackday org won't put them together for safety reasons, why should a race org?

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 12:00:47 AM
you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

So if I follow your logic then you have no problem running race pace with 1:25 experts, it's just the 1:25 amatures that are a problem.

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 12:00:47 AM
Put it this way, mid pack Experts will be put into advance group at trackdays while mid pack AM's will be put into intermediate group. If a trackday org won't put them together for safety reasons, why should a race org?

With this argument you are saying that a front pack amature (who would ride in Advance group at a track day) should then practice with the experts. Expert and amature together.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out that the arguments you present are very idealistic, in an ideal racing org you would show at least the aptitude of a trackday advanced group rider before you coud even ride amature. The reality is that a track day org on any given day has less than 100 riders to police and properly group. A club racing org has 300 or more and there are going to be riders misclassed and the painful truth is that the white plate does not make you faster or safer.

One thing you say has me very curious though, you say that most expert races are not combined in the MA region. How do you get all your races in?

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 12:00:47 AM
you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

This statement is ridiculous.  If you can't figure out how to get around 3 slower riders without loosing allot of time during a lap you need to practice with slower riders and learn how to get through traffic.  The danger factor is mostly in the hands of the overtaking rider.  If you choose to pass in an area where you are putting you and the other rider in danger, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.  Granted that some riders are unpredictable, and there is no positively safe way around them, there are always ways to stack the odds in safety's favor.

I agree with Dafan. Yes you are still going to have speed diff. when the practices are split , just not as many. I have ridden many different practice groups over the last 4 years on everything from SV 650 to Gsxr 1000 and the only ones that are combined in the Mid-Atlantic are the lightweights, and they are some of the worst practices I have had. Practice is to get up to race speed as quickly as possible, since practice is so limited. Those Am riders that want to practice with experts to get faster, well just move to the expert class. And there is no such thing as sandbagging in the expert class. Even if you are an AMA pro, you still have an expert license, chasing contingency to make a living at club racing is not sandbagging- get a clue, I wish I was fast enough to do that.

Arnie,

You admit in your post that practice time is limited as it is, if you split the expert and amature rideres into seperate practice then you will reduce everybodys time on the track. There will always be speed diff but that's part of racing, wasn't there a big flap in motogp when one rider recently felt that another ruined his qualifing by getting in his way? This is club racing, you are never going to fix the speed diff no matter what you do, why shorten everyones practice time to seperate ex and am.

I'm confused... is the point of the arguement to increase practice time?  Or is it to allow Am to practice with Ex in general? 

GP region gets PLENTY of practice time... thats not a concern to me.  Whats the issue thats trying to be resolved?

Certain AM's want to practice with the Ex's?  Move up  :biggrin:

Everyone wants more practice time... I dont see how combining will increase that safely!  I dont mind AM's on the track with me (heck there's 2-3 a weekend that are faster than me) as long as the track isnt congested!

Quote from: Speedballer347 on September 28, 2006, 09:49:28 PM
I didn't mean it as any type of disrespect. 
Everyone has their own ideas what sandbagging is (maybe winning, maybe multi years, maybe lots of schools, maybe whatever), some people cry foul, some don't care.  I never really cared, I just wanted to catch the 'next' guy in front of me.
But there always seems to be complaining about fast/sandbaggers in Ams....I always felt it was the same deal in expert.  AMA guys doing club racing, Enduarance teams with years and years of experience and seemingly unlimited funds, Club racers making a good living from bouncing from weekend-to-weekend cleaning up the club races.

Again, no disrespect to anyone, and personally I don't care if someone is sandbagging.  I think it is a non-issue, but I also see it as prevalent in Ex as it is in Am.

gotcha, was just confused... Experts sandbagging... I dont see it that way, but thats why your name is Speedy and mine is Timmay!!   :cheers:

How's MAM looking for ya?  gonna make it?

Quote from: AM_#76 on September 29, 2006, 09:23:12 AM
This statement is ridiculous.  If you can't figure out how to get around 3 slower riders without loosing allot of time during a lap you need to practice with slower riders and learn how to get through traffic.  The danger factor is mostly in the hands of the overtaking rider.  If you choose to pass in an area where you are putting you and the other rider in danger, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.  Granted that some riders are unpredictable, and there is no positively safe way around them, there are always ways to stack the odds in safety's favor.

It is not rediculous. As a matter of fact I feel that I am uniquely qualified to make that statement. I work at over 50 trackdays a year, and I Am not a CR. I get to ride in all the skill groups as much as I want. and I am one of the most proficient riders in passing safely (and being passed safely).

Yes there are slow experts, but they are very practiced in their lines and habits they are not likely to be erratic or using different lines every lap. Say what you will, it takes laps and time on the track to earn that white plate. And no matter what speed you run what time you turn, you make less mistakes as a white plate because you are more experienced and you can do repetitions better.

So yes I would trust a 1:25 expert 10 x better than I Wuold trust a 1:25 AM on the track. An Amatuer could be turning that 1:25 second day on the track, while an expert running that same 1:25 have been racing for 3 years (and earned lots of points, longer if they are slower)

Don't take offense because you have a yellow plate. I teach a racing school, I evaluate people at trackdays and the experience makes the difference. After all that is WHY there is AM and there is EX right? With enough time you will earn the same sort of respect on the track as the other white plates. I would then be comfortable running with you on the track at whatever pace.

Go look at lap to lap print outs. Experts are more consistent, and if one does a best time of 1:25, they will do 1:25-1:27 every lap. Now look at the typical Amatuer. IF one does a 1:25, more than likely they will be spiking at 1:25 while doing anywhere between 1:26-1:30. Thats because they make more mistakes. Of course there is the exception of the 2 guys that kills half the expert classes. But if they have been racing mx and doing trackdays for 4 years before racing maybe they should be Experts anyway, because well, they are?

Remember Experts and Amatuers are skill levels, NOT sucess levels. you have AM's that are fast enough to win EX races but I don't know if I would trust them the same on the track. If they deserve to be, then they deserve to be experts. But that is not the spirit of the rules. The rules have 2 classes so newcomers can hone their skill and prepare themselves for better, closer competition.


On the other hand, I run AMA races and I get lapped myself. I look forward to my qualifying session where I get to run with the slower half. I don't want to get in the way of the factory guys in practice. I always be mindful of the fast guys and let them  by whenever possible (in the race as well, I actually waved them by). I wish they can split practice as well but there is no time for that, and there are only what, 30 people on track, tops.

If you are interested in the MA schedule, download it from the CCS site. We do combine LW parctices but the MW/HW/UN never. They combine some races but usually don't on busier weekends. And I try not to enter combined races.

Why even have 2 classes of AM/EX if there is no reason to seperate them?

I am the race director for TPM's GP Moto series. While we don't have 15 races per day, I do run 5 races in one afternoon. We don't have EX/AM classes. But I take care in letting people get the point that this is not an expert race and people are here to have fun and not chase a career.

Do you really want the likes of Jensen and Denning to be practicing with blue shirts? If for any reason something does happen and it hurts their living, I will not be able to live with mydecision if I put them together in the same session. It is easy to speculate, but put you in the position to be responsible(and accountable) for people's safety and lives, your opinions may be a little harder to form, I suspect.

I would like to point out that it is funny, that when I had a yellow plate I would have sided with all the AM's here.  8)

It was like "I do ok, I pass many experts, why can't I practice with them". I was a top 3 Amatuer.

Now I think differently.

The fact still remains that (at least in the LW class) you still have to race with the AMs.  It would be best to know thier habits before you race with them.  You will always need to work your way through traffic safely.  That statement would still be true even if all of the riders on the track were experts.  We are all capable of making mistakes.  I have seen Ex and Ams make big ones

I am not offened because I have yellow plates, your statement is mostly correct, I usuall trust white plated guys more than yellows.  I never stated that you should trust anyone!!  Even some poeple you have raced cleanly on other occasions.  Consistant lap times does not = good riding.  Slow riders that hold a consistant line and do not stand up when you pass them is what other riders need to be safe.

As far as respect goes, I think I have a far amount of respect already.  After reading your statments I am the one who does not want to run close to you because, judging by your statements you are willing to take an unneecessary risk during practice to improve your lap times.

I pass more people in one day that most racers pass in an entire year. If you feel that you are not comfortable riding around me then please don't. I don't take any unecessary risk, and I am mildly offended at how you can arrive at such a conclusion. It is not unsusally I can pass 30-40 people within one trackday *session* doing a close to race pace and I do not have people complaining about me and my passing too much. and I have never caused a problem. But thats what trackdays are for. Race day practice has a different purpose, its too short to be practicing your skills, it should be used to "warm up" and get yourself ready to go. If you haven't figure out something by Sat morning practice, you probably are not going to do very well.

People do consistent laptimes because they repeat what they do lap after lap. Slow, fast, doesn't matter. If you can repeat what you do, then it is called consistency and predictability... And predictability is the key here, NOT good riding. If you ride off the racing line but do it lap after lap and hit the same marks and you are just as safe to others as any because after I observe your habbits for 2 corners I can go and make a pass and you will stick to your usual line (as bad as it is). You see, being able to predict what a person will do within a short time is why predictability really is important.

Do you really think that I will ride through traffic and remember what each of the other person would do in practice? What I am going to learn by practicing with peoeple will will likey change their lines and brake markers and make *different* mistakes when the pace goes faster?

As an Expert I think I can say for most experts:

We don't stand to benefit much by having more tracktime but mixed in with Amateurs. You can of course counter that with your theories but the truth remains that you are not Expert and you can't really predict what we could benefit from. And as we Experts have been Am's before, we can say that we understand your point of view and know you can benefit from the Experts and more tracktime. But this is a one way street. I do not want to loose my practice time so you can learn more and get better tracktime. Call me selfish but I paid the same amount.

and again from a Race Organizer point of view, which I feel I deserve, I don't think it would be very safe. The cons outweigh the pro by far.

I hope you would be an Expert one day. But maybe you shouldn't because then you would have to run close to me  :ahhh:

Take me an Arnie for an example, we had some close battle last week at VIR. and it was more fun than anything else for a long time for me. right arnie  :biggrin: But we weren't taking unecessary risks. We raced elbow to elbow, stuffed each other but never put each other in much danger, and I Trusted him and I believe he trusted me. I would not have done that with an Amatuer even if he was blowing my doors off fast.

Riding close and aggressive doesn't equal danger if you can handle what you are doing. I wish you could be on track for a AMA race and see how the top pros are putting lives in each other's hands but rarely make any mistake so it is just as safe as walking down the street side by side. Thats what happens with exprience and skill lever increase... Why do I have to explain this?

I am sorry to have mildly offended you.  Your implied expert superiority mildly offends me.  I will actually be an expert next year, so I have been around the sport for a while.  You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am to mine.  I don't wish to start some personal argument here.  I can see we will just have to agree to disagree.  I am sure others will chime in and we will see how the thing goes. 

Quote from: AM_#76 on September 29, 2006, 12:19:23 PM
I am sorry to have mildly offended you.  Your implied expert superiority mildly offends me.  I will actually be an expert next year, so I have been around the sport for a while.  You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am to mine.  I don't wish to start some personal argument here.  I can see we will just have to agree to disagree.  I am sure others will chime in and we will see how the thing goes. 

The superiority is not implied. it was explained. People who have been doing it longer are on average better than people who have been doing it shorter. Why were you offended? Are you offended that you started late? When an expert thought he was better than me in my first year, I was NOT offended, I just wanted to ride more, race more and be as good if not better than him.

I don't understand why you would have a problem with that? It is not like I said experts are superiority  because of any intangible reason? I explained that skills are built over time. Give yourself time and you will have more skills.

Do you really want to argue that experts on average don't have superiority riding skills, abilities and knowledge?

Why are you offended? I am really not getting it now.

Quote from: AM_#76 on September 29, 2006, 11:30:46 AM
The fact still remains that (at least in the LW class) you still have to race with the AMs.  It would be best to know thier habits before you race with them.  You will always need to work your way through traffic safely.  That statement would still be true even if all of the riders on the track were experts.  We are all capable of making mistakes.  I have seen Ex and Ams make big ones

I know enough of their habits, I was an am. Don't need practice for that, I need practice to make sure I am running at pace to be competitive with the experts. I am happy that CCS usually doesn't combine in the Mid-Atlantic, probably because we have larger turnouts than you corn huskers in the midwest. I guess if the turnout was light it wouldn't be too bad , but not when there are 35-50 bikes on the track and over half are ams.

I am mildly offended... "corn huskers" are from Nebraska which would fall in the great plains region...not the midwest  :biggrin:

I think a few longer responses buried my question... is the point of the arguement to increase practice time?  Or is it to allow Am to practice with Ex in general?  Whats the purpose of the discussion?  Why SHOULD we combine Ex/Am... what is the proposed benefit.

I know there is argument that am's CAN practice with Ex's... but how does it benefit the majority?

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 12:36:04 PM
The superiority is not implied. it was explained. People who have been doing it longer are on average better than people who have been doing it shorter. Why were you offended? Are you offended that you started late? When an expert thought he was better than me in my first year, I was NOT offended, I just wanted to ride more, race more and be as good if not better than him.

I don't understand why you would have a problem with that? It is not like I said experts are superiority  because of any intangible reason? I explained that skills are built over time. Give yourself time and you will have more skills.

Do you really want to argue that experts on average don't have superiority riding skills, abilities and knowledge?

Why are you offended? I am really not getting it now.

Really man, take it easy

you are the one who got offended with an discussion regarding why an expert is an expert, and why an amatuer is an amatuer.

I think you should take it easy, discrediting my passing ability because you were offended of being an amatuer is sort of a desperation move...

Hey I just tell it like it is. When you race/ride this long you know there isn't any point in taking offense in anything. people come and go, people change their mind anyway. That's why I said "mildly offended" it was supposed to be funny. I think some did get it  :biggrin:

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 01:53:26 PM
you are the one who got offended with an discussion regarding why an expert is an expert, and why an amatuer is an amatuer.

I think you should take it easy, discrediting my passing ability because you were offended of being an amatuer is sort of a desperation move...

Hey I just tell it like it is. When you race/ride this long you know there isn't any point in taking offense in anything. people come and go, people change their mind anyway. That's why I said "mildly offended" it was supposed to be funny. I think some did get it  :biggrin:

I think you have read allot of hostility into my words and this subject is now off on a tangent.  I know why an expert is an expert, and they do have more experiance than the AMs, I have never disputed that.  I am trying not to make this personal.  I have stated my opinion, and you stated yours.  No I didn't get the mildly offended dig, sorry about that. 

- you said you would not ride close to me because you implied I would be a danger to you
- you told me to take it easy which implied I am on some sort of rage

If that is you trying not to be personal I really don't know what it would be like when you do try

- you said you were offended by my implied expert superiority which would suggest that you want to dispute the fact that I think experts are better at racing (in general) than amatuers.

I am just debating the original topic and you just broke off, and I tried again to lead the discussion back on to a merit based conversation about why our opinions differ and you said I am leading it off topic.

I did NOT say anything that is personal toward you even up to this point, eventhing I have said can be applied to anyone with a yellow plate. You however keep singling me out and accusing me of "making it personal". What did I say was personal in the previous posts?

Cliff Notes:

1. you didn't like what I said about experts are more trustworthy and am's are not as much, to me.
2. and you took exceptions to that, so you thought of a smart ass way to come back by saying that I must be dangerous if I want to run race times in practice.
3. Then I didn't like that so I went on and on about why I am not unsafe
4. you then didn't want to take it personal (Even though I still was not personal toward you) so you said we agree to disagree
5. I don't agree to disagree so I tell you why experts are superior
6. you couldn't come back to that one so you tell me to take it easy
etc...

I still would like to know why you were offended in the first place? Are you saying that experts are not better at racing than amatuers? if so why do we even classify anyone as being experts? And why do they use the words "amatuer" and "expert"?

Quote from: r6_philly on September 29, 2006, 02:27:31 PM
- you said you would not ride close to me because you implied I would be a danger to you
- you told me to take it easy which implied I am on some sort of rage

If that is you trying not to be personal I really don't know what it would be like when you do try

- you said you were offended by my implied expert superiority which would suggest that you want to dispute the fact that I think experts are better at racing (in general) than amatuers.

I am just debating the original topic and you just broke off, and I tried again to lead the discussion back on to a merit based conversation about why our opinions differ and you said I am leading it off topic.

I did NOT say anything that is personal toward you even up to this point, eventhing I have said can be applied to anyone with a yellow plate. You however keep singling me out and accusing me of "making it personal". What did I say was personal in the previous posts?

Cliff Notes:

1. you didn't like what I said about experts are more trustworthy and am's are not as much, to me.
2. and you took exceptions to that, so you thought of a smart ass way to come back by saying that I must be dangerous if I want to run race times in practice.
3. Then I didn't like that so I went on and on about why I am not unsafe
4. you then didn't want to take it personal (Even though I still was not personal toward you) so you said we agree to disagree
5. I don't agree to disagree so I tell you why experts are superior
6. you couldn't come back to that one so you tell me to take it easy
etc...

I still would like to know why you were offended in the first place? Are you saying that experts are not better at racing than amatuers? if so why do we even classify anyone as being experts? And why do they use the words "amatuer" and "expert"?

So I said some things that you took offence to, Sorry.  Lets just forget all of these things and try to discuss the issue.  I am not offended at all by what you stated about AMs being less experienced.  My mildly offended was also meant to be sort of funny also.  Judging by how you reacted I should not have said that.  The point that I guess I was trying to make when I offended you, was that racing is also a mental experience.  My feeling is that if a rider is trying hard to get a good lap time during practice, a riders thoughts of how someone is holding another back could manifest itself in an aggressive pass that could go bad.  I do not mean you personally, you may have very good control over your emotions for all I know.  If you are lucky enough not to race with the AMs then practicing with them would not be of much use.  I was looking at it from my perspective.  In the Midwest the light weights practice and race together.  I try to make mental notes about what the riders who are slower than I are doing to get a feel for them, especially if the seem to be inconsistent or flinch when someone passes them.  I think practicing with those riders is a benefit for me during a race.  I have also heard some of the experts in my region say the same thing (like PJ who already responded on this thread).     

Wow 473 views!!!  Looks like I have created quite a stir.  Come on all of you...  express your opinion

Quote from: Jason748 on September 28, 2006, 11:12:25 PM
What about running practice sessions by lap times instead of by class, I know LRRS does something like this?

This is the best idea I think (I started with LRRS/GPpro back in 95).  Keep the ex and am's in their own practice.  Start practice with slow am's and then slow ex's, then med am's, followed by med ex's, then fast am's and finish with fast ex's.  It seems to work well for LRRS and from what I've seen, they have very large grids.

njracer

 :thumb: that was a better response man  :cheers:

I still think, that while laptimes are important, the skill levels is more... but thats just my opinion (and apparently the establishments opinion).

laptime doesn't tell all the story. I practiced at VIR on sunday 10 seconds slower than I did in a race on Sat. Because I just wanted to warm my body up and get read for racing. That doesn't mean I am not capable of going faster, nor does it mean I am more dangerous (than sat).

I think I am more comfortable practicing around people who are more likely to make similar decisions and people who are similarly experienced so they can deal with unforseen situations better.

Experts crash less than AM's because, in my humble opinion, when things go wrong, they are more likely to save it. So I Think in the same sense, if an EX is to find himself all of sudden on a colision course with another, the chances are the ex's will be able to come away more likely than the am's...

anyhow... practicing by laptimes is cool and all, I still will not be comfortable with someone turning my pace but only on his second weekend (yes that happens).

I would rather practice with slow experts than fast amatuers.

And as it stands, I don't see how the Experts will benefit from a combined session. Arnie said it right, we were all Amatuers once, we know how to ride around Amatuers, we have had at least 2 years of experience. So we can do just fine riding with them, we just rather not.