Was it just me or was there a lack of airfence at blackhawk this weekend? I know there was'nt any in turn 2 and it was bugging the S@#T out me! :banghead:
Well theres never been any at turn 2. 4 and 5 are the only corners with airfences. But the track is looking into some new stuff that is 1/3rd the price of the ones they have and are supposed to be able to be used with cars (to show how durable they are) and bikes and are more locally made. The ones they have are custom made by a London company.
I did notice the airfence at 4, But it's not enough they really need to move that guardrail in 4 and 5 back. They might lose some paddock space but I don't think it would be to exspensive.
seems like the airfence in 4 is in the wrong spot... ive seen lots of crashes there and never seen anyone hit the airfence???
Well moving that fence back would be pricey (theres ALOT of dirt behind the concrete wall the tires sit in front of), but would be a good idea.
sryan296 and robsob.... obviously you guys are new to Blackhawk.......
Correct, there never was air fence in 2 and yes, I agree there should be some there. I have made my suggestions known to the owners about turn 2 but so far no progress. If done right there would be no need for air fence in that area at all.
I don't know but since that air fence went up in 4 and 5 I have seen a lot of riders hit that fence in 4. Ask around and I think you'll find that to be true. before the change to the carousel there were a lot more bikes and riders into that wall.
A few years ago by my persuasion the track owners cut down 18 trees in turn 5 and moved that guard rail back at least 15-20 ft. in the entrance to 5. At the apex to exit of 5 there is a ravine and creek that impedes any more movement back. They did move the railing back about 6 feet in that area but due to limitations that was it. The state DNR has a lot to say about messing with waterways. At the same time runoff all around the track was improved along with the entrance to pit road widened by a large margin.
The air fence being used is from Air Fence in Australia. It is called Air Fence Bike and was developed to be easily moved on and off track so it could be readily placed when bikes are using the track and removed when cars are on track.
Air Fence Bike is good stuff if it is maintained properly which Blackhawks has not. A lot of it needs repair. I volunteered and spent three days at the track building that stuff with the US rep for Air Fence, Mike Irwin, Jan Bloom and a couple other ocassional helpers. After that the track was supposed to maintain it. Well, they haven't kept up their end.
About a year ago I saw a list (dream sheet) of all the modifications/improvements that were supposed to be done at Blackhawk and they included a lot of track work. What got done? Some partial repaving and they took out the pay showers and did a little work in the rest rooms.
The sheet I saw had new showers, new rest rooms, new med shed, new almost everything.......if it's going to happen it's a long way off.
This is not the place to complain though. You need to direct your comments with accurate facts to the track owners. Make good suggestions with a possible solution, don't just complain.
Yup - I've seen the fence in 4 used many times & 5 once this year.
this guy thinks there should be more airfence in five-------->http://www.scooterphoto.com/id29.html (http://www.scooterphoto.com/id29.html)
I heard he was okay.
That pic is of T4, and airfence is not the problem there.
The solution would be to bring the run-off area up level with the track. The fact that the track has a lip and the run-off falls away equals a launch pad. The problem then goes into where the spectator line is, etc.
The airfence in T4 was and is in the correct place. It's straight off of the corner, where the most velocity will be absorbed should a rider go straight off. Does it happen? Yes. I went head-first into the tire wall in that corner. I was lucky and only compressed a couple of vertebrae in my neck. I thought my neck was broken...
Airfence is for the rider, not the bike. The tirewall and barrels are for the bike.
More airfence is not really the answer in T4 at BHF. Some significant work leveling out the area and moving the spectator line back is... And this isn't something that BHF is oblivious of. They know this is one of the most risky areas of the track for a rider.
Quote from: Jeff on August 24, 2006, 08:20:29 AM
More airfence is not really the answer in T4 at BHF. Some significant work leveling out the area and moving the spectator line back is... And this isn't something that BHF is oblivious of. They know this is one of the most risky areas of the track for a rider.
Why don't they do it then? How much does it cost to move that fencing back? I would imagine they could do that in a week or two. I believe there are several trees that would need to be cut down as well.
I agree, it's obvious that turn needs more run off.
I'm not new to blackhawk and neither is Rob. It's just that now that I've got a kid,house,etc. those tire walls just seem a lot closer
It's not just about moving fence back. The track is by my estimation about 4 feet higher than the ground at the fence. So, now you move the fence back and push dirt in to level the track off with the runoff. So what you have now, is a spectator area that is instantly lower than the track and runoff which is unacceptably dangerous.
So... They can either bring in or push around enough dirt to level that area out entirely, or they'd have to move the armco, concrete wall and fence back far enough to allow a flat run-off, and then a gradual descent into the spectator area.
It's not as simple as it seems...
Quote from: Jeff on August 24, 2006, 08:20:29 AM
That pic is of T4, and airfence is not the problem there.
The solution would be to bring the run-off area up level with the track. The fact that the track has a lip and the run-off falls away equals a launch pad. The problem then goes into where the spectator line is, etc.
The airfence in T4 was and is in the correct place. It's straight off of the corner, where the most velocity will be absorbed should a rider go straight off. Does it happen? Yes. I went head-first into the tire wall in that corner. I was lucky and only compressed a couple of vertebrae in my neck. I thought my neck was broken...
Airfence is for the rider, not the bike. The tirewall and barrels are for the bike.
More airfence is not really the answer in T4 at BHF. Some significant work leveling out the area and moving the spectator line back is... And this isn't something that BHF is oblivious of. They know this is one of the most risky areas of the track for a rider.
Sorry, BHF corners are confusing, I always considered the first left after the bus stop t4 and the two subsequent lefts 5a and 5b.
I realize the airfence is not for the bike. But if the bike hit hard enough to make it to the fence, the rider ate the tires equally hard.
I couldn't agree more about runoff. That's the big issue, they need to push some walls back. And if that's not in the budget, I'd like to see them put in some real gravel traps. something to slow the rider down before impact.
Talking to track staff this last weekend, we discussed turn 4 specifically. The municipality has a lot to say about what can and cannot be done due to the aforementioned DNR restrictions, as well as required building permits. The entire section between 4 and 5 is due to get a collapsable "catch fence" when time permits. It is my understanding that it has been paid for, they are just waiting for the contracter to schedule the installation. They are also working on aquiring more air fence modules. They have a significant portion of the improvement budget earmarked for this. Unfortunately, it does not appear that they will be able to move the concrete barriers back at any time in the future, which would be the best solution.
As Gordy stated, the wish list is long, including new shower and lav facilities, improvements to the tower and staff facilities, along with continued track maintenance and improvements.
It's important to note that this is a business, and as such, they need to manage their cash flow to satisfy all of their customers. The positive thing is that there are bike freindly people in key staff positions that are contantly advocating for us.
If you have ideas for improvements, write a kind, professional letter to BFR. They do listen to their customers. The car guys are pretty vocal, and bring in a lot of money. That said, as we are a growing portion of their revenue, we can influence decision making by making our needs known to the management.
Quote from: Jeff on August 24, 2006, 09:13:42 AM
It's not just about moving fence back. The track is by my estimation about 4 feet higher than the ground at the fence. So, now you move the fence back and push dirt in to level the track off with the runoff. So what you have now, is a spectator area that is instantly lower than the track and runoff which is unacceptably dangerous.
So... They can either bring in or push around enough dirt to level that area out entirely, or they'd have to move the armco, concrete wall and fence back far enough to allow a flat run-off, and then a gradual descent into the spectator area.
It's not as simple as it seems...
I agree that it isn't that simple, but if DNR stuff didn't come into play, with heavy machinery, do you really think it would take that much effort?
Anybody got a bobcat and some shovels. I'll take care of it myself! :biggrin:
This "business" is a cash cow and can easily afford the improvements. The money generated from the first three months of the season pays all the bills for the rest of the season. I know this from a VERY reliable source. The track is paying off the improvements to Topeka this season. Improvements are in the works for the entire track at BHF, with the DNR and city board being the biggest hurdles.
Quote from: DAmico on August 24, 2006, 02:35:32 PM
This "business" is a cash cow and can easily afford the improvements. The money generated from the first three months of the season pays all the bills for the rest of the season. I know this from a VERY reliable source. The track is paying off the improvements to Topeka this season. Improvements are in the works for the entire track at BHF, with the DNR and city board being the biggest hurdles.
I don't claim to know the inner workings of the city board, but I think taking pictures of the latest crash to a meeting would hopefully be enough to convince them it is in the best interests to have the fence moved back.
Quote from: r1owner on August 24, 2006, 03:09:27 PM
I don't claim to know the inner workings of the city board, but I think taking pictures of the latest crash to a meeting would hopefully be enough to convince them it is in the best interests to have the fence moved back.
Do that and the city board might just say it is your best interest to not race and close the track.
Quote from: tzracer on August 24, 2006, 03:13:09 PM
Do that and the city board might just say it is your best interest to not race and close the track.
Agreed, I'd bet that most of the City Board and DNR people only barely tolerate our "loud and reckless sport" so showing them how dangerous T4 is may very well draw a different resonse than you are looking for.
Alexa hit the nail on the head, kind, calm professional letters to the selected individuals that are sympathetic to our cause.
Quote from: sryan296 on August 24, 2006, 02:25:11 PM
Anybody got a bobcat and some shovels. I'll take care of it myself! :biggrin:
I have the skidsteer. Just need manpower and pea gravel. Anybody else in?
Quote from: tzracer on August 24, 2006, 03:13:09 PM
Do that and the city board might just say it is your best interest to not race and close the track.
Good point!
It always amazes me the way people think construction projects are so easy. Then when they're in over their heads everything falls apart and the project doesn't get finished. Seen a zillion times.
Yep, much as engineers are not my favorite people, with exception for a few, there is a bit of engineering to do before you dive into that turn 4 project.
I have another idea that also would involve some engineering but also involves changing the track layout in that area. My original idea for slowing traffic there has helped tremendously but the speed of race equipment keeps going up and the track gets outdated again.
I will formally submit my ideas to Blackhawk management and ownership this fall. Hopefully with some results by next spring.
Leveling off an area will cause drainage issues.
Movement of barriers will require approval by the SCCA. The SCCA has a process by which tracks are approved, and they are given notice of issues that need to be taken care of.
The motorcycling end isn't so clear.
Illinois DNR and EPA are real issues for the track. They cost the track money.
Hey, I just finished watching Megastructures on Discovery channel... they built a huge freaking island off the coast of Dubai in just two years!!!
Come on and move the fence already!!!! (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fr6racer.gotdns.com%2Femoticons%2Fsmile.gif&hash=7dda39c28212fb12d39357988994815a773187e5) Just kidding!
But Dubai doesnt have to deal with IL DNR and the Rockton City Council.
I agree (as far as planning goes).... are you telling me most of this enormous cost comes from those two sources?
Since we can't fix it through engineering in the short term, what can we do short turn?
Can we do a fund raiser track day to buy more airfence? Get some items for an auction? I've considered some of these ideas. I don't yet race, but really want to. The guy that crashed in that turn is Barry Dolan. As he stated, tire walls are not soft. From what I heard, the bike went over the wall, and he somehow missed the airfence.
It seems that the CCS midwest does a number of races at this track. It may be in our best interest to work to help them find us solutions that we can implement now. I can't imagine you can ever have to much airfence.
Perhaps a heavy duty chain link fence is in order on top of that concrete wall. We'd have a real hard time getting anything done if they were busy dealing with a lawsuit because someone was hurt by a bike that came over the wall into the spectator area.
See the MCRA raffle at the top of this forum. See how many people you can get to sign up. The proceeds are going for air fence at Gateway and will be available to CCS as well. Every little bit helps.
From my own painful experience in four, It seems like the rumble strip should be removed at the outside edge of the track. Hit that while you're sliding, and it acts like a launching ramp. (Hard on the ribs, too....) Now you and the bike are airborne until you hit the air fence. You don't slow down much when you're airborne.
Just a thought, but what if turn four had a chicane? All it would take it to knock down a few trees at the inside of four, then lay some asphalt to make the track jog 90 degrees left, 45 degrees right, 45 degrees left. You could even leave the original pavement there for the cars, just like at Road America. Gordie? Does this seem feasable?
Even better might be a 45 degree left, 90 degree right, 45 degree left slalom-type chicane between the bus stop and four. Again, you'd only have to drop some trees and add some pavement on rider's left between the bus stop and four. If the last 45 degree left blended into the radius of four, it would turn four into a 135 degree corner that would mostly see low-speed highside crashes as riders tried to get a good drive into five. The current runoff would then be sufficient, because the bikes would probably stay on or near the pavement when they crashed.
Quote from: sryan296 on August 23, 2006, 07:18:25 PM
Was it just me or was there a lack of airfence at blackhawk this weekend? I know there was'nt any in turn 2 and it was bugging the S@#T out me! :banghead:
+1 Go off the line in early AM practice in T2 before the asphalt has warmed up and you've gotten 1 step closer to God. Well, your suspension guy anyway. :ahhh:
We need to start up an Airfence fund for BFR. How many sections of fence do we need for T2 and how many trees need to be removed before it can be properly seated in place? I believe addressing T2 would be a good place to start, for now.
Start in T2 and move on to the T4 area where it sounds like A LOT more is involved than just money and input from the riders.
I don't want to hear that it's too big of a deal to take care of this. If the barriers can't be moved right away, fine. why not make some effective gravel traps. Ten or fifteen feet of deep pea gravel between the track and the wall could save a few trips to the hospital.
I'm a contractor, I'm not just shooting from the hip here. The construction is no big deal. If this project was as hard as it gets, I'd have it easy.
Drainage isn't even worth bringing up, it's just not an issue.
The DNR can be a pain in the ass, I deal with them weekly, but you can work with them, just get used to them saying "no" the first time.
I realize the track needs to make money, I don't work for free either. But I think it's a lot easier to make excuses than get things done.
#1 if this was a motorcycle track only these changes could possibly fly with no problem...but it's not. Cars and go karts also race here and they all have input into any track changes. For instance, that rumble strip on the outside of four is for cars. I agree it shouldn't be there but I'm sure SCCA had something to do with it's existence.
The "bus stop" was put in to slow down traffic into four. Before that cars were getting over that wall...... Now a few years later bikes and cars have progressed in speed and handling so the wall again has become a problem. There are much fewer crashes there now than previous to the bus stop though.
As I said, I have some ideas for 2 and 4 that I will submit to Blackhawk ownership. At least it may get them thinking about changes. Turn 2 is a piece of cake, cut trees and move guard rail.....no dirt to move, no walls to move, no air fence needed.
Turn 4 is a different animal to deal with. Remember, any change you make to one turn is going to affect the next turn or two so this has to be carefully planned so the flow of the track doesn't get messed up or you cause a problem in the next turn. The plan laid out by "professional track people" for the last change there would have made turn 5 very dangerous yet those people never saw that. All they looked at was turn 4. thankfully track ownership didn't listen to them.
Deep pea gravel may work great for bikes but SCCA doesn't like it. Ever try to get a car out of that stuff?
A lot of courteous letters asking for changes will help but it won't happen over night. I would rather see them take time and make the changes right than mess up the track.
Just my two cents...............
Quote from: weggieman on August 25, 2006, 07:29:56 PM
#1 if this was a motorcycle track only these changes could possibly fly with no problem...but it's not. Cars and go karts also race here and they all have input into any track changes. For instance, that rumble strip on the outside of four is for cars. I agree it shouldn't be there but I'm sure SCCA had something to do with it's existence.
Although I don't like that curb, I can understand where they (SCCA) want (and possibly need it).
Quote from: weggieman on August 25, 2006, 07:29:56 PM
Turn 4 is a different animal to deal with. Remember, any change you make to one turn is going to affect the next turn or two so this has to be carefully planned so the flow of the track doesn't get messed up or you cause a problem in the next turn. The plan laid out by "professional track people" for the last change there would have made turn 5 very dangerous yet those people never saw that. All they looked at was turn 4. thankfully track ownership didn't listen to them.
Changing the distance to the wall is not changing the track flow at all, so it shouldn't affect what happens in the next turn. The only thing I could see is people seeing the extra safety factor of the distance and pressing even harder in turn 4, that would cause speeds to increase into 5.
Quote from: weggieman on August 25, 2006, 07:29:56 PM
Deep pea gravel may work great for bikes but SCCA doesn't like it. Ever try to get a car out of that stuff?
They don't like it? WTF cares... lets have them pay the multi thousand dollar repair bills for each bike that hits the wall then. I'll put up with their curb if they can handle a little gravel.
Quote from: weggieman on August 25, 2006, 07:29:56 PM
A lot of courteous letters asking for changes will help but it won't happen over night. I would rather see them take time and make the changes right than mess up the track.
I agree.
Let's say for sake of argument they could move the wall back the prescribed safe distance. Would you rather see the medium be (gravel, dirt/grass, or pavement)?
I would almost argue for pavement since if you do overshoot, you have a chance to either slow down enough to stop or make the turn off track.
The elevated curb can go. They use flat rumble strip curbing at alot of other tracks. That would eliminate the launch zone. I dont think SCCA requires the elevated curbs anymore.
As for gravel traps. I've been in them with cars. Drove through one and came out carrying 15+lbs of gravel which proceeded to come out ON TRACK. Yes they are a pain to get cars out, BUT they are also a PITA to get the bikes out. Also if someone goes down in that stuff, get the bike back up and heads back out then whats the next bitch? Theres gravel on the track. Then we have to take time to clean up all the gravel thats all over the track. Then you have to rake the gravel where the bike was if the gravel is mucked up alot. Then we are now dealing with people bitching that it takes too long to clean. And not to mention the pea gravel DOES find its way into airboxes rather easily. Also there really isnt much room in T4 for a gravel trap large enough to stop bikes. Bikes still can go over the wall even with the gravel.
As for "They don't like it? WTF cares... lets have them pay the multi thousand dollar repair bills for each bike that hits the wall then. I'll put up with their curb if they can handle a little gravel.", well SCCA is BHF's bread and butter. Track was built for cars. BHF is a hell of alot safer now than it was when I started racing bikes in 99.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on August 25, 2006, 09:05:52 PM
As for "They don't like it? WTF cares... lets have them pay the multi thousand dollar repair bills for each bike that hits the wall then. I'll put up with their curb if they can handle a little gravel.", well SCCA is BHF's bread and butter. Track was built for cars. BHF is a hell of alot safer now than it was when I started racing bikes in 99.
I can guarantee you if your bike hit that wall you would wish there were gravel there instead.
I for one never complain about the time taken to get started. I'd much rather have the safest conditions as possible to race in. If it takes 10 minutes to get the gravel up then so be it. They don't seem to have problems with it at any of the European tracks where I see riders go down in it.
I just hate hearing "Well, the car guys bring in the money, so lets not change anything to make it safer for riders or the car guys will get butt hurt".... whatever... :rolleyes
I can't believe there are people bitching about possible cleanup of gravel when safety is involved.
Quote from: JBraun on August 25, 2006, 09:13:57 AM
I'm a contractor, I'm not just shooting from the hip here. The construction is no big deal. If this project was as hard as it gets, I'd have it easy.
Drainage isn't even worth bringing up, it's just not an issue.
The DNR can be a pain in the ass, I deal with them weekly, but you can work with them, just get used to them saying "no" the first time.
I realize the track needs to make money, I don't work for free either. But I think it's a lot easier to make excuses than get things done.
Put in the bid to move the wall back in 4, have the curbing ground down flush, and put down more sand. Look at it over the weekend of 9-22,23 and put in the bid.
As Gordie mentioned above T2 in his opinion is even simpler with some tree removal and guardrail movement. Would you bid that too?
Quote from: 251am on August 25, 2006, 11:44:37 PM
Put in the bid to move the wall back in 4, have the curbing ground down flush, and put down more sand. Look at it over the weekend of 9-22,23 and put in the bid.
As Gordie mentioned above T2 in his opinion is even simpler with some tree removal and guardrail movement. Would you bid that too?
Love to, but I live in Wisconsin, and I don't have an Illinois license.
I guess my point was that this stuff isn't that difficult to do. Getting the permits would be the hardest part.
Quote from: JBraun on August 26, 2006, 10:21:18 AM
Love to, but I live in Wisconsin, and I don't have an Illinois license.
I guess my point was that this stuff isn't that difficult to do. Getting the permits would be the hardest part.
Oh crap, I thought we mighta been onto something, someone. Anyone know a bike enthusiast contractors in Illinois?