So, looking for some input...At the 1st and 2nd start of the AMA SS Race at VIR today, it appeared that Rodger's Kawi smoked quite a bit on both starts (quite a bit more on the 2nd)...
They talked about it for a little, but I was just wondering why, or what the most probable reason for all the smoke is from...I see it quite a bit in both AMA and MotoGP races...
My best educated guess, is that these guys are going out with brand new, fresh motors who's piston rings have not seated yet, and when they launch em' they are seating their rings and for a few seconds, oil is getting by...
Is that a good guess? I don't know much about motors and such...
Is it a safe beat to think that these factory guys are going out on a brand new, fresh motor every single race? Or do they run the same one for both pratice and race?
Discuss?
Texas Tea fuel used to smoke.
Low tension oil rings to reduce friction, but allow a little oil to get into the combustion chamber.
Engine defect.
I don't believe that anyone in the AMA has a fresh motor for every race. I'm sure the bikes are gone through, and probably rebuilt several times per season, but I don't know about every race.
MotoGP, probably every race, yes...
There is a big difference though in the $6M/yr budget for a MotoGP rider and that of an AMA rider.
i know that the kawasaki team and yosh team have new engines for practice and new engines for races every weekend
Quote from: racerhall on August 21, 2006, 10:01:52 AM
i know that the kawasaki team and yosh team have new engines for practice and new engines for races every weekend
Yeah, I would almost guarantee that riders like Maldin, Spies, Hayden's, Di Salvo, Hacking, etc...Have new motors for both pratice and races...
I would even go so far as to say other teams like Jordan, Eslick, etc...Have new motors for every weekend...May not for both pratice, and races, but at least everyweekend....
Quote from: Jeff on August 21, 2006, 08:40:36 AM
I don't believe that anyone in the AMA has a fresh motor for every race. I'm sure the bikes are gone through, and probably rebuilt several times per season, but I don't know about every race.
MotoGP, probably every race, yes...
There is a big difference though in the $6M/yr budget for a MotoGP rider and that of an AMA rider.
I talked with one of Graves Yamaha's mechanics, who is a "friend of a friend" and according to him their motors are fresh for every round, but not every race.
He is now working with EBoz, but was with Damon Buckmaster previously. I asked him if it sucks to wrench for a crasher like Buckmaster, and he said it really doesn't matter because the bikes are completely tore down after every round anyway. Fresh motors, suspension, everything.
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I can't see why a team would replace an engine between practice and racing. Once the bike is dialed in why would you want introduce new variables?
okay... i stand corrected...
damn.....
because new is better than used and they have the time, money and man power
I had a little smoke come out of my bike in Unlim GP...
there was so much smoke i couldnt see and i thought maybe there was oil so i slowed down for safty reasons and then Doty went ripping by me
Quote from: afeuer on August 21, 2006, 02:35:38 PM
I had a little smoke come out of my bike in Unlim GP...
this bike per chance?
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(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1000rr.us%2Fmultimedia%2FIMG_3085.JPG&hash=6c026728d1a2dbb72abb728c359caf347ccc2d47)
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I saw A LOT of smome in T1 but it was from chain-smoking spectators.......................... :wtf:
Yeah, We saw that at the wall at VIR this past weekend...
Trust me alot of 600's went puff at VIR this past weekend
I was told that Kaw is racing on a fresh motor, then using that motor for practice the following round.. I can't remember if it was for qualifying too.
The only failure my team had was the oil filter blowing the rubber seal at the checkered flag in the supersport race.. ANd no I will not let you know what brand of filter it was.
Both the FX motor I built and the Supersport motor I built for Team Embry did what they were supposed to do... finish the race.
And Andy, I told you to come on down and borrow my 600 for this weekend too... Should have took me up on it.
Are you going to Road Atlanta AMA?
Matt why don't you let me use the 600 :biggrin:
90% sure i'm going.
Even in the late 80's it was common place to have multiple bikes and engines. When you take apart a chassis and engine so often, eventually, threads come out of everything. The metals get work hardened.
Quote from: Jeff on August 21, 2006, 12:11:02 PM
okay... i stand corrected...
damn.....
Actually, it sounds like I may be mistaken. I was told that they tear the bikes down every weekend, but I guess that doesn't mean they don't replace the motor before the race.
I think this is what's wrong with SS racing. How is a privateer supposed to compete?
Not to mention that the SS motors are supposed to be relatively stock. A legal motor should last half a season without needing a rebuild. I realize these guys are running 0w oil and really loose clearances at the expense of durability, and that the motors may be within the parameters of the rulebook, but it still sucks for the guy who needs his motor to go a season.
There are a lot of ways AMA could make the SS classes more competitive, but they choose not to. I know guys will find a way to cheat, but at least things would even out a bit. :preachon:
What would you have the AMA do?
With Ti valves, the thought of endurance for a sprint motor is gone. Thank the manufacturers for that.
Motors will last, but their power will deteriorate.
The AMA races are part of a big show. Wanna reduce costs? Place restrictions on testing. Again, my example is that Graves was testing their R6 in October of 2005. When Daytona started, they had done more testing than they were going to do races. My dealer didn't get my R6 until after Daytona.
Horse power limits for SS. Top 3 finishers, plus 3 random finishers (picked out of a hat) go directly to the dyno. That would be a start, but would not fix the fact that top teams get differant tires than a privateer.
I thought there were HP restrictions in Supersport... Just looked in the rulebook and didn't see any offhand though.
Quote from: afeuer on August 22, 2006, 03:29:02 PM
Horse power limits for SS. Top 3 finishers, plus 3 random finishers (picked out of a hat) go directly to the dyno.
Exactly.
That doesn't sound so hard...
This was my observation this past weekend about the AMA Supersport class. All of the top privateers were pretty well matched HP wise.. I saw no one with an obvious advantage on the straights. My motors were just as fast or faster than everyone elses...
The factory teams are another matter.. the riders were either able to get several more mile and hour going on to the front or their bikes had 5-7 hp more than the privateers or perhaps a little of both.. granted Pirelli and Dunlop have tires for the top guys we can't get.
Based on what I know I did to my motors and what you can do to them, I did not see any obvious cheating. I would have to say everyone was playing by the book, or close enough that it did not matter.
I will say this... there are some cheat'n mo fo's on the regional level.
The manufacturers won't go for a dyno limit. It keeps them from stacking the deck in their favor. There's a lot of money coming into those teams. They don't need to find sponsorships from Hooters, Geico, etc.
Quote from: Super Dave on August 22, 2006, 09:48:08 PM
The manufacturers won't go for a dyno limit.
That's the problem, it shouldn't be their call.
It's the AMA's job to make the rules, and the factories should have to follow them.
I'm not naive, I realize the factories hold all the cards. But it won't stop me from complaining...
Look at qualifying times from last weekend @ VIR. SS pole was less than a half second off FX. The whole idea with supersport is that the bikes are supposed to be relatively stock, yet they lap on pace with bikes that have trick swingarms, forks, brakes, triples, 16.5 mag wheels, slicks and pissed off motors? I must be missing something.
Look at qualifying times from last weekend @ VIR. SS pole was less than a half second off FX. The whole idea with supersport is that the bikes are supposed to be relatively stock, yet they lap on pace with bikes that have trick swingarms, forks, brakes, triples, 16.5 mag wheels, slicks and pissed off motors? I must be missing something.
+1
you guys are forgetting that the AMA/ factories are one in the same...
Quote from: mdr14 on August 22, 2006, 08:44:30 PMI will say this... there are some cheat'n mo fo's on the regional level.
LOL! Classic!
Hey now, before we get to much farther off topic...LOL...
Is the general concessus as to why Rodger had all that smoke was due to a new motor w/o seated rings and he was getting blow by?
TIA!!!
LOL :)
Mike, Based On my understanding, that was a fresh motor for the race, and I am sure the rings had not fully seated, that probably coupled with running a light weight oil.
I do not recall seeing any obvious smoking on subsequent laps
Quote from: JBraun on August 23, 2006, 09:55:10 AM
It's the AMA's job to make the rules, and the factories should have to follow them.
I'm not naive, I realize the factories hold all the cards. But it won't stop me from complaining...
Look at qualifying times from last weekend @ VIR. SS pole was less than a half second off FX. The whole idea with supersport is that the bikes are supposed to be relatively stock, yet they lap on pace with bikes that have trick swingarms, forks, brakes, triples, 16.5 mag wheels, slicks and pissed off motors? I must be missing something.
Missing something? Yeah, Supersport times have been faster than FX times quite regularly. It's a recent thing that FX has gone faster than Supersport. 16.5 wheels are light, but the tires are heavy. HP doesn't mean everything.
As for the manufacturer teams...
They do make a great investment into the whole program. You can't leave them out. But if things were tweaked, I always felt that the whole racing program would be elevated for all teams...riders, mechanics, tire dudes, etc.
Did anyone else notice when Barrick went to pick up Herin that he left a pretty good sized puddle of water from the A/C condensor of the car on the track?
Granted, it was pretty far off the racing line....
Quote from: r1owner on August 24, 2006, 12:17:55 AM
Did anyone else notice when Barrick went to pick up Herin that he left a pretty good sized puddle of water from the A/C condensor of the car on the track?
Granted, it was pretty far off the racing line....
Yeah, saw that...
But what I loved was how they "took their time" getting back to the pits and ready to go again so the factory rider had enuf time to get his bike fixed....
It's not just for the factory riders. It's for the riders. I've seen it before for private riders in the past.
I was there on turn 4 working the corner. It amazes me how much time they take sometimes. I enjoyed the event very much. I recall the bike smoking and instead of pulling him off for a check I guess they thought of the check he would get at the end of the race. You never can tell on either end what will or could happen. I also saw Mladin's S.Bike smoke as he went through my turn too during practice. It could have been rings. After awhile the smoking stopped.
It seems the cards are stacked way to much against privateers. Lap times showed. Glad to see those ASRA stickers on some bikes though :thumb: