I have a 1999 F4.
I would run it with stock suspension
I have a 520 conversion with sprockets
I may add a jet kit
I want to buy or trade the F4 in on:
2001 Ducati 748
It would also be stock suspension
I would convert chain and sprockets
It has fuel injection so I think I could run a power commander in stock classes?
Any input or other suggestions?
I'm just starting racing, so I'm very green and both bikes are probably well beyond my capabilities. I have monster 620. I like wrenching on the Ducati's more than the Honda. Everything just seems easier to work on and get to.
Thanks
Buell.... But I may be a bit bias!
A Suzuki SV650 is the perfect first racebike.
Both bikes would create challenges to race.... the F4 because of newer bikes being more capable in the classes you would be racing in..... the Ducati because of the cost/availability of parts.
Both bikes might present problems at the track if you break something. There would be a very limited possibility that someone else might have spares that you could borrow/buy.
Any thought of selling the F4 and buying a bike already setup for the track? Race plastic, suspension. exhaust, 520's, etc. can become a bargain when you buy a bike that someone already setup. If you've got an idea what you could sell the F4 for in street trim you might be surprised how much of a race bike you could buy. Especially if your F4 has value because of a good title that many race bikes won't have.
Your coming up on the time of the year when a lot of people are starting to think about selling their race bikes because they're getting out or starting to get ready for next year.
You could have lots of options available depending on how set you are in what you want to race.
Just my .02 cents 8)
The SV usually wins the bangperbuck//lap-per-bucks contest if all goes normally-good advice here to sell honda and buy a prepped sv in the next 3-5 mos-lotsa stuff available/lots of 99-02 older/but IMO better engines in mostly stock form- I spent alot more on building a "00" sv than what i could have spent on buyin one already done :boink:- the proof is in my garage-a second sv with much more technology/capability :thumb:K3 was my salesman on the second try!Took a lil help to get it from Chicago to Daytona to Victory Gardens NJ,but in my first ride July 1 i got my first trophies with it ,whats that worth? Better view on future racing! :thumb: (when i can get away from family business!) :whine: Good luck sell honda soon and start lookin for an SV-- john in nj
748's are pretty cool. But some of the parts for the engine can have a shorter life span. A 996 makes decend power, when compared to a decent, more current 600.
I'm not a huge F4, F4i, RR fan, but the F4 isn't a bad bike. Yeah, it doesn't make as much power as an RR, but class lap times don't drop substantially year to year because of all the technological sales that manufacturers give us.
Stock suspension will leave you limited, though, on the post F3 Honda's as it seemed that Honda began to focus more on their 600's being street bikes that could be converted though suspension component replacement to give it the proper geometry to give good feedback. You just can't ride around that stuff, unless everyone has that same bike and they are limited to not changine those components.
SV's are great alternatives, and you'll save money by using less tires.
I guess that is my dilema. I've always loved the Ducati 7**-9** bikes. I would love to have a 998.
I have the F4 and it's paid for. The F4 needs a jet kit and full exhaust and some suspension work to be a good race bike.
I could sell the F4 and put a few more bucks in and buy someones bike at the end of this season.
Such as:
I could get the SV.
I could get a Yamaha R6.
I've always been a Honda fan, I could get the RR
GSXR's seem very solid the last few years.
There are just to many choices.
Can you change fork internals and rear shocks and run in the stock class?
Would the F4 be acceptable with those mods?
To many questions.
Not enough knowledge
To little money
Way to much time.
Whats a guy to do.
Thanks for the input. Keep the info coming.
I have a 748 that I use for the street & mostly track days, but I race a 600rr. So I've done a fair amount of work on both, here's my take.
The 748:
The good; Unlike days of old, parts are not that expensive (in some cases less than the equivalent Honda parts), and are actually very easy to get especially if you e-bay. If you want to go buck wild you can even shell out for Corse parts and actually get them, try that with HRC :banghead:. The suspension is top notch, stock brakes are above average, the chassis is wonderful. Out of the box the 748 is definitely a better "race' bike than a F4, no question, hands down.
Now the bad; You have to, no questions asked, get it serviced much more often and at a reputable service shop, this is not cheap. You can't go, just one more race or one more track day and stretch it. You'll be in a world of hurt if you do. But when correctly & timely serviced they are bullet proof (or at least mine has been). Here in the Midwest there really aren't many people who run them, so finding spares at the track is a crap shoot at best. But go some where like LRRS or WSMC and they run rampit, it's easy to find parts at the track.
The CBR:
The good; Part are easy to get, but surprisingly are the same price or even more than the 748. The motor is bullet proof, odds are you'll probably never have to really tear into it. The chassis is good, but not great, the brakes are good. Overall it's typical Honda, a good solid bike, you really can't go wrong.
The bad; It's getting on in age so not many people race them, but a few. You'll have better luck finding spare at the track than the 748, but not that much better. The suspension is not good as stock, unless you weight about 150, at the min you'd really need to get it re-sprung for your weight.
As far was wrenching on them, the 748 is much harder than your monster, but better than the F4.
BUT, like just about everyone else is telling you, get a race prepped SV650, it's one of the best starter "race" bikes out there, much better than either the 748 or the F4.
oh, BTW if your going to be at the Blackhawk Nesba on sept 2-3, drop by I'll be there.
Thanks Jason. I'm really torn. I've always wanted a Ducati. In building the monster, I've found what you have found. There are more used honda parts out there. But more people need them and they the prices don't change much. The Ducati's have less parts available per model. But Ducati uses a lot of the same parts on their bikes. I have forks from a 748 on the monster, the front wheel is from a 748, the brake calipers and rotors are the same as well. I even have a 748 upper fairing and clipons on the monster. The ducati's come with the things i've added to the honda, like braided lines etc.
Maybe I just need to get another job. Have an SV, a 748 and 600 racer.
What kind of maintenance are you referring to on the Ducati? I know about oil changes, valve adjustments are more critical I think, and belts?
I will more than likely be at blackhawk. I hope to see you there. Costlyduc on the Nesba boards is usually at most midwest events as well. He has a yellow 748.
I've talked with Aaron in NC a few times about Duc stuff, so I know we're in the minority here in the midwest, but the Ducati's have a strong following in other areas.
Quote from: gkotlin on July 18, 2006, 11:29:20 PM
I have forks from a 748 on the monster, the front wheel is from a 748, the brake calipers and rotors are the same as well. I even have a 748 upper fairing and clipons on the monster. The ducati's come with the things i've added to the honda, like braided lines etc.
Sound's like you should be considering racing the Monster :thumb:
You could end up with a grarge like mine, at last look it's got a CBR600RR, 748, SV650, RM125 & a 1960 Ducati 200SS.... :ahhh:
Quote from: gkotlin on July 18, 2006, 11:29:20 PM
What kind of maintenance are you referring to on the Ducati? I know about oil changes, valve adjustments are more critical I think, and belts?
Basicially if you race one, your pretty much going to have to 1/2 the regular mantaince sechdule, so your looking at belts, valve adj's (at the correct clearence for racing) & rocker arm checks every year, and the weak part of the 748/916/996 is the valve collets, it's almost manditory to replace them with collets (half-rings) from MBP. But after installing the MBP collets I've never had a valve out of adjustment since. When they go bad they will take out a valve and possibly worse :wah:
Shoot me an e-mail I and can give you a couple of names (shops) to talk to that specialize in racing ducs in the midwest that I fully trust.
Thanks very much. I will keep that in mind. I'm making an offer on the Duc. We'll see where that goes.
See you at Blackhawk.
I know a racer looking to trade/sell a Ducati so he can get a Buell.
Quote from: gkotlin on July 18, 2006, 11:29:20 PM
Maybe I just need to get another job. Have an SV, a 748 and 600 racer.
A racer can never have too many jobs!
keep the F4, I raced a 2000f4 (in 2003) my AM season and won 2 regional championships on it, won a BUNCH of races even against guys on the 03r6's (was by far the best bike that year) and other newer bikes. The 99 is basically the same exact bike. It was VERY durable and crashed well. Parts are all over for these bikes now. Advance the timing 4deg, run U4 VP fuel and have someone tune the carbs on a dyno and you can get about 101hp with the motor totally stock. The forks HAVE to be resprung at minimum as the they are way to soft. The 749 will be very expensive to maintain and not nearly as fast (IMO) on the track as the F4 (big reason nobody races the 749 in mid-weight, they get smoked..). In the AM class you can do very well, but when you move up to expert expect to get totally motored.
Can not stress enough the need for stiffer front springs. (cheap fix,maybe $150 tops with fork oil change) Call Eric Grey at GMD to hook you up on that. 954-786-2875
Choose the bike that the majority of the guys you race with own. It is alot easier to get parts, service and solve issues when the people around you have already gone through the problems you will encounter. Like Melka said call Eric @ GMD or whoever has the most experience setting up your suspension in your area. Suspension comes first. And in my own bias opinion I would choose Ducati every time.
Crazy me. I just can't figure me out. I just bought a 2003 CBR 600RR. So I may sell my monster and try to keep the F4 CBR as a backup bike. I appreciate tuning information for the F4. Any more good ideas for the F4 or the RR?
thanks for all the input
Quote from: gkotlin on July 20, 2006, 01:22:31 PM
Crazy me. I just can't figure me out. I just bought a 2003 CBR 600RR. So I may sell my monster and try to keep the F4 CBR as a backup bike. I appreciate tuning information for the F4. Any more good ideas for the F4 or the RR?
thanks for all the input
Gotto raise the rear a bunch on the F4. If you want to use the stock shock, just add about 5mm shim (aka washers from HomeDepot) to the top of the shock between the mounting area. It is easy, just remove the seat and the top of the shock is right there, just need to support the bike under the footpegs so you can drop the rear wheel. you MUST add stiffer front springs.
Put MICHELIN tires on it and you will be ready to go!
Quote from: gkotlin on July 20, 2006, 01:22:31 PM
Any more good ideas for the F4 or the RR?
Yep, best thing & first thing you should do on the RR is.
1. Remove rear shock
2. Remove Forks
3. Box up and send to Ed over at trackside eng. Tell him you want the re-worked rear shock & the correct springs in the forks.
4. Get-em back & bolt them on.
You can track ride and even try to race the RR a bit stock.
Running the current Pilot Race rear and a Pilot Race "C" front tire, only available throgh race distribution, the rear we left alone, and the front we pushed the forks into the upper tripple clamps so that the top of the cap was probably 3-4mm below the top of the clamp.
Not gonna win with something like that as an expert, but it would get you on the track right now with a bike that has some feel.
I appreciate the input. I may keep both CBR's to have as track bikes. They're my starter entries into racing. I still have to send in my paperwork for my license. I figure they're good racebike / backup bike for Novice racing. But most importantly, they were affordable. I'm hoping to get my feet wet this season and try to get out for all of next season.
The F4 has springs in the forks. I've added about 6mm of shim to the rear. I could probably use a jet kit and full exhaust. It has a slip on, and I have rains for it. Now I just need to get some spares for the RR.
Any other suggestions are appreciated for either bike. I could use all the help I can get.
Some stated pulling the rear shock on the RR and sending it for work? Is that a good idea with the stock shock? I was advised against it for the F4. I was told they really should be replaced.
Thanks!
Quote from: gkotlin on July 21, 2006, 10:32:56 AM
Some stated pulling the rear shock on the RR and sending it for work? Is that a good idea with the stock shock? I was advised against it for the F4. I was told they really should be replaced.
On the RR - absolutely have the stock rear shock rebuilt by ED, this (and having the front re-valved/re-sprung) is by far the best money I've ever spent on the RR. For the < $300 that Ed charges it's an absolute steal. Here's the link to what I'm talking about: http://www.tracksideengineering.com//ecommerce/catalog_ms2.2/product_info.php/products_id/23?osCsid=f91c9c73c2d288a44bb39f5c4f1d9980 (http://www.tracksideengineering.com//ecommerce/catalog_ms2.2/product_info.php/products_id/23?osCsid=f91c9c73c2d288a44bb39f5c4f1d9980).
:thumb: To the Power Race PRC / PR5 combo.
Also check out Jeff's "other" forum www.cbr600rr.com (http://www.cbr600rr.com).
well.. now your getting into racing a bike that your now spending money on.. i thought you were wanting to race the bike basically stock? The rear shock on the 99f4 will not make a huge diff. Provided it is in decent shape, should at LEAST have it serviced (new oil, recharge the nitrogen = $125 or so..). The fork springs will need to be changed however. Sure , an aftermarket shock is better, you could have the stock shock revalved and that may be a good way to go. OR!! Just RACE IT! Get on the bike, put gas in, pay the entry fee and have fun!
If you're a Ducati buff and can wrench them, I recommend you look into a SS800/900/1000. The 800 are winners in ULW classes, and competitive in LW. The 900/1000 is very competitive in LW classes against Buells and SVs.
For now, thats exactly what I'm gonna do. Get on it and go. Anyone have some used RR fairings? I'm gonna set the sag, go over everything and look for fairings. Then I'm gonna go racing. Get my feet wet. Get a feel for the bike. See if I can start feeling how the suspension changes feel. I'll run track days as well, and hopefull get some experience before next season. Unfortunately, I'm still really slow and I'm not experienced enough to know what the bike is telling me. Let alone, how to change or adjust it. I guess that just comes with seat time and tinkering.
Thanks for all the input. I can use all the help I can get.
Quote from: gkotlin on July 21, 2006, 11:03:57 PM
For now, thats exactly what I'm gonna do. Get on it and go. Anyone have some used RR fairings? I'm gonna set the sag, go over everything and look for fairings. Then I'm gonna go racing. Get my feet wet. Get a feel for the bike. See if I can start feeling how the suspension changes feel. I'll run track days as well, and hopefull get some experience before next season. Unfortunately, I'm still really slow and I'm not experienced enough to know what the bike is telling me. Let alone, how to change or adjust it. I guess that just comes with seat time and tinkering.
Thanks for all the input. I can use all the help I can get.
I was lucky and had some good advice from the shop that sponsors me. After doing well on the F4, i was going expert and was going to build the motor up. THey convinced me to get a newer r6 rather than rebuild the older F4, that was still a good bike, but would NEVER be as good or fast as the newer generation bikes. You doing the right thing. Your riding will get you the finishes in the AM class, get some experience and then you can move up to a better bike. By then, you will have a better handle on what your really looking for too and will have not spent a bunch of money on a bike that realistically, you wont get much more for even spending more on it today.
start out on an SV or smaller.
I'm looking for opinions on this one. I finally got the bike out on the track last week at blackhawk farms. It was way way way to hot. The problem I was experiencing was this. After the carousel, there is a transition from the right lean of the carousel to the left quickly before you brake for the bus stop. That transition was horrible and heavy. It was so much work. At that point on the track, I was off the throttle. Leaving the bus stop under thorttle the bike easily transitioned from right to left. I eventually will have the rear shock rebuilt. Till then what can I do? I can't see that I can shim the rear. Can I lower the front just a bit to help out till I get the shock done?
just put a bout 10mm of washers on top of the shock, lowering the front will do the same thing BUT you loose more of the already lacking ground clearance..
Quote from: MELK-MAN on August 06, 2006, 10:22:31 PM
just put a bout 10mm of washers on top of the shock, lowering the front will do the same thing BUT you loose more of the already lacking ground clearance..
With a RR, that's just not possible.
You can lower the front, BUT be very careful, if you go to far at full compression (with stock length forks) you could foul the radiator. I'd start with 1mm.