How many of you guys use a GP or race shift pattern (1up/5down) or standard (1down/5up) and why?
I'm using standard shift pattern and thinking of switching to GP this year. But, then again, Matt Mladin won 3 championships with a standard shift. I just think it would be easier to shift driving out of a corner with a GP pattern. I find myself having problems getting my foot under the shifter, especially under hard left handers. Those of you who switched, was it difficult? I've been riding for over 20 years (only starting my 2nd racing) and it's such a habit, I don't even think about shifting and I'm concerned that I would revert to old ways in the middle of a race when I'm concentrating on something else.
patrick
#93 SW AM
I use standard, GP is prolly better, maybe I'll switch sometime but I'm afraid 13 years of riding standard would cause me to screw it up at the wrong time.
Try GP shifting. The majority of riders prefer it, seems much more natural. After the first few times it is not a problem. I commute on the street with a bike that uses a standard shift pattern, I have no problems switching between the 2 bikes. Mladin does not use GP shifting due to an ankle injury.
My advice is to use the same shifting pattern on all your bikes. I bought a race bike with a GP shift pattern. I tried it out a couple weekends and then swapped back. Initially I would be going into corners literally thinking to myself which way I had to move the lever. After a while it started to get easier...until things became dicey. On a couple occasions I was in the heat of battle when someone would make an unexpected move in front of me and I would revert back to instincts, shift the wrong way, and wind up running off the track. 25 years of shifting one way is just too much to overcome when the brain gives way to to the subconscious.
Switch to GP shift!
It took me just half a track day to get used to it, w/o having to think about it.
I switched halfway through last season, and it definitely helped on those left handers, like you said... even on right handers... I found that I could lean off more comfortably, b/c I didn't need my foot/toes under the shifter.
I switched and will never go back.
QuoteI find myself having problems getting my foot under the shifter, especially under hard left handers.
Patrick:
My husband changed to the GP shifting for the very same reason and prefers it over the standard pattern. He did mess up in a race once, but never did it again. He also made sure that he changed his street bike to the GP pattern so it becomes truely engrained into his memory.
Dawn :)
QuoteOn a couple occasions I was in the heat of battle when someone would make an unexpected move in front of me and I would revert back to instincts, shift the wrong way, and wind up running off the track. 25 years of shifting one way is just too much to overcome when the brain gives way to to the subconscious.
What he said. I switched to GP this year. The first weekend was rough. It got easier. Third weekend of the year, I got in a jam, switched the wrong way, revved her to the moon, and stretched a rod. Still, now that I'm converted, I'll never go back. I HATE test riding street bikes at my job...
I would avoid changing a street bike to GP shifting.
Not all bikes can easily be changed to GP shift.
What if you have to ride anither persons bike that cannot be easily changed to GP shift.
Never seen a dirt bike with GP shifting.
I have no problems going back and forth. I ride a street bike about 200 to 300 days per year and have no problems. I had been riding on the street for about 15 years when I made the switch. It took less than a weekend to get used to it.
I do GP shift. I don't change any others. I find that the other bikes I ride on the dirt, ice, street, etc...I have a different attitude when I'm riding. I'm not in that race mode. And race mode on the ice is different. The only problem I have is when I'm riding a student's bike on the race track, and then I get comfortable. That's when things get tricky....
Thanks guys for all the feedback! I've got a track day this weekend and I think I'm gonna switch it over to see how it works out before I throw myself into a race situation.
:patrick
#93 SW AM
Hey, good luck. It will take the whole day to get it into your system.
My race bike and street bike are exactly the same so I set them both up with the GP pattern. (easy on GSXRs) I like it much better on the race track. Since I don't have much ridding experience, it screws me up to ride a bike with regular shifting now.
Well, at least I can say I tried it. :-/
I changed it the day before and ran around on the street for the better part of the afternoon. I THOUGHT I got comfortable with it... until I got to the track and what I feared happened. When I would get into "track mode" I would revert back to my old ways and shift the standard way, which is a problem if the bike is set up for GP pattern :o :o
Needless to say, I switched it back and got my track times back down ( I was 2-3 seconds off my normal pace because I had to keep thinking which way to shift). I guess GP shift is good if this is what you do for a living or aren't use to standard. I just figure my time could be better spent thinking about my line or brake points then trying to remember which way to shift. It was worth the experiment though...
:patrick
#93 SW AM
I cannot really say which is better, only that I would strongly suggest having the same pattern on both your street and race bikes.
I saw some dumb a$$ come out of a third gear corner once and go to second instead of fourth. Only a miracle saved him and the bike. The leathers needed some cleaning however. ;D
Doh, wait a minute, that was me!
Switching patterns from 1 bike to another is going to be just 1 more thing to screw me up. Keep it simple. On my bike I heliarced a heel lever so if I needed to upshift on a lefthanded with my toes on the peg I can push my heal down. Worked out fine, and cheaper than a new shifter setup. Also worked well on starts when I'm fishing for footpegs.
I'm impressed by all the resistance to GP shift pattern.
Street riding and racing are pretty different. I mean, you're in a really different state of mind. That's probably why I can jump on my race bikes and go with GP shift pattern.
The upshifting is efficient with a little push down for an upshift. Again, that's where you can gain time with positive, correct shifts. When you're downshifting, you're on the brakes. If you blew it, well, you could shift again.
Pushing down is easier because you have a big calf muscle. You don't have much of a muscle to pull up on the shifter.
If you race long enough, you will go to tracks that you cannot upshift while leaning over.
Everyone has to make their own decisions, but the GP pattern is very efficient.
Dont be too discouraged with your GP experiment ...when any change works it will usually change your reference points...cuz you'll be going faster. Keep trying the GP shifting. Practice Practice Practice... once you do it enough on the track(when it needs to be second nature), you won't question it. Your attack mode will be GP shifting. Just take it slow. I had to do several laps telling myself ...Upshift, Backshift, upshift,....etc. Draw a map of the track and mark off all your shift points as Up or Backshifts. AND call them BACKshifts..."down" is not the operative word. This will come natural eventually with... Super Dave say it with me...Practice. Good luck. 8)
The real reason GP shift came into being was back in the day......the transmissions couldn't handle the power and racers would find themselves having to keep pressure on the shifter to keep the bike in gear. That being said, it is much easier to hold the bike in gear while pressing down, not pulling up.
Those who don't or haven't used GP shift should at least try it. It feels much more natural and a side benefit is less wear and tear on the upper left foot. Because you down shift using the clutch this action is easier to do. On my TZ I can switch the gearing in the trans so that I don't need to pick up a gear mid-corner; however, I can't do this with the R6 or R1. On almost any track there will be at least one corner where I'll need to grab a gear. I switched for this same reason, sometimes the corner is a left. Its tough to get your foot under the shifter when your already dragging your toe.
I had 22.5 years of regular shifting under my belt when I bought my race Duc with GP shift. I rode about 1/2 of a track day and shifted the wrong way once. Went to my first race a month later and never gave it a second thought, and I had a lot of near get-offs. Seemed more natural to me. And the dirt bike thing...you don't upshift a dirt bike while you're dragging your knee and also tend to downshift with a lot more force heading into a turn when the bike is bouncing and sliding that much underneath you. Just my .02, but I'll never switch back.
Well, I also have many years on a bike-standard shift-and went to GP shift at the begining of last year. After a few weekends I was completely comfortable with the GP pattern BUT I was having a VERY hard time making 2 or more downshifts with the GP pattern and was finding that the downshifts were much more critical to me than the upshifts. I really think it depends on the tracks you ride at. There are many tracks that don't require an upshift while leaned over to the left and for myself who's greatest weakness is corner ENTRY I feel at my current skill level, GP shifting actually hurts my lap times. It is a very individual thing. GP
Have you tried adjusting the shift lever to make down shifting easier?
over memorial weekend i switched over to GP shifting. during the track day i screwed up a few times but by the end of the day it was weird to hop on the pit bike with standard shifing. Granted im only 17 and been racing/riding bikes for a year so i have to habits but if you can get it into or brain go with GP
erich roeder #288 CCS
Erich, you related to Jess and the rest of the Roeder family?
I use GP shifting. I have never been on a track with anything but GP shifting. Like Dave said. When I am in race mode. Its an automatic thing for me mentally. It took about a day for me to get use to it and now I would be lost on a standard shift bike on the track. It just comes down to personal preferance.
QuoteI It just comes down to personal preferance.
Really? Or isn't it more logical and efficient?
Logical and efficient.....! "Touche"
QuoteReally? Or isn't it more logical and efficient?
Well Brian Drebber says it's personal preference and
he's on TV!
j/k I use GP pattern. ;D
I switched to GP last year on the SV, but my CB 750 was standard. Took about 1/2 a day to get used to on the SV, and a couple days on teh CB 750 to make sure I was in the right shift mode there.
I rode a standard shift bike on the track at summit, and found it difficult. I would get into the track mode in my brain, and then try and standard shift.
Im a big fan of GP shift on the track. :D
I too switched to GP shift earlier this year, and took about an half day to get used to it. When everything is running smooth, I have no problem with it, but then when in tight dicing situation, natural instinct kicks in and cause me to downshight instead of upshift (at exit of the corner).
I have locked up my rear several times doing this. Fortunately, I didn't crash nor run off the track once due to it yet. Needless to say, I switched back to standard shift so I can concentrate on riding and not making sure that I am shifting the right way.
I didn't find GP shift helping me at all but taking away some % of my concentration from just riding. For the corners that will require a shift in the mid corner, I just ride differently. Either going in the corner in a higher gear to begin with and roll on the throttle way early to pick up the rpm, or just carry more entry speed to keep the rpm in the power band (require a big arc to maximize average corner speed but may delay the full throttle timing exiting the apex). Going into the corner in the correct gear, I would square off a corner more to begin with so that I can stand up the bike a little bit for a short while in mid corner to shift up (left hander).
There are always ways around every problems which improve some compromises, and I believe it's a personal preference in my case as I couldn't make GP shift a second natural like the standard shift is to me after riding standard shift for almost 13 years.
Everyone say smooth is the key to be fast, right? Well, smooth to me will require a shift pattern that is my second natural and doesn't take away my concentration for just riding.
I use GP... I find it much easier and sensible...
Here is an EASY way to remember GP shift direction:
1. Head down, push down
2. Head up, pull up
I have both my street and track bike setup GP... It took me a day of riding to master it and I have been riding standard for 21 years. I should note, that one time when I wasn't concentrating (about three days into the new shift style) I accidentally hit 2nd instead of 4th... I was VERY close to having a nasty get-off, but made it. I will never make that mistake again.
Also, I still ride friends bikes with standard shifting and don't have any problems...
I to agree that this is a preference thing, but GP does feel more natural to me.
Choose your way and stick with it for a while.
-Rip
QuoteI didn't find GP shift helping me at all but taking away some % of my concentration from just riding. For the corners that will require a shift in the mid corner, I just ride differently.
Ah, again...resistance.
Do what you want. It isn't going to be something that you necessarily pick up in an instant.
Really, you shouldn't be focusing so much on your riding, but on your bike...how it handles, how it gets traction, all that.
You know what kind of springs you have in it front and rear? Sag? Do you recognize how a change in gearing changes the chassis feel?
If you're making a gear change in the middle of corners, you probably have other issues that need to be fixed.
That's what I do...fix things and riders.
You may be right, Dave! I'll give GP shift another try I guess during my coming trackday at Grattan with STT on July 5th! ;)
In my experience, I really didn't feel/notice any advantage of GP shift when using it except for the long left sweepers that required a shift in the middle of the corner. My bike shifts really good, and I have never got a false neutral (true Honda quality). ;D I personally like to tap down on the downshift (easier shift than hooking the shifter up as you said) as I personally think precise downshift is more important as corner entry speed and exiting speed is what really makes a bigger difference in lap time (try to get a higher average cornering speed when you mis-shift going into a corner is basically impossible). ::)
Regarding concentrating on riding........... Everything you said about how the bike handles, how the bike gets traction, staying on the intended/desireable line, maximizing speed, etc, are riding! ;) At least that's what I meant when I said to concentrate on riding. ;D
I do know exactly what springs I have in my front and rear suspension and all the sag numbers plus all the damping setting. ;D I am pretty picky in nature, so I tend to feel every details in how my bike acts when riding. ::)
For corners that required extra shifting in the middle of the corner, I too thought about a gearing change so that I wouldn't need to shift in the middle of the corner, but then with a smaller displacement bike (less HP/Torque), there are just compromise that will need to be make in certain tracks with certain layouts. Changing sprocakets for a different gear ratio for the long sweepers to avoid extra shifting tends to mess up all other gearing in technical area (tighter turns) as I can't stay in the power band in a higher gear or revving the life out of the motor still going too slow in a lower gear (my bike doesn't have a desireable close ratio gearbox)............. I rather compromise for the long sweepers as I tend to make up more time in the technical section overall on a smaller displacement bike! ;)
Quote....but then with a smaller displacement bike (less HP/Torque), there are just compromise that will need to be make in certain tracks with certain layouts.
Like what kind?
600?
125 GP bike?
Vintage road racer?
Vintage 125 GP bike?
Ridden them all, and seldom have I had those kind of problems. Generally, it comes down to set up and execution.
I have GP on my racebikes and standard on my street/dirt bikes. I don't have a problem using either. I also take street bikes on the track and have no problem when I need to use standard shifting.
The only time (and I continue to do so) that I mess up, is when I come off the track after a race. I would forget which way to shift back down to 1st (I would do the standard way and end up in 6th)...
But when I am focused with racing, and just performing the repetitive task of shifting before entering a turn, I will never mess up. Because it is built into my brain that I need to pull up on the lever so many times. It is actually not a concious effort of shifting, it is just something I am supposed to do before I turn in to the next corner, like many other tasks that you have to perform. It wouldn't matter either way, if I don't do these things correctly I wouldn't go fast, but having it GP pattern make performing the actions a bit easier.
get a heal shifter for the street bike, .. assuming its a HD.
QuoteLike what kind?
600?
125 GP bike?
Vintage road racer?
Vintage 125 GP bike?
Ridden them all, and seldom have I had those kind of problems. Generally, it comes down to set up and execution.
1998 Honda RVF400. Definitely one you haven't ridden yet............ ;D
Been on a CBR400RR...
Your VFR still makes more torque and power than an old 125...
I'm out of this thread...
If anyone wants to talk more...come to my school...drop a note...
QuoteBeen on a CBR400RR...
Your VFR still makes more torque and power than an old 125...
I'm out of this thread...
If anyone wants to talk more...come to my school...drop a note...
True, except mine is a RVF which doesn't have the close ratio gearbox in the VFRs (Honda makes the RVF a better streetbike than a race machine compared to VFR).
I'll try to fit one of your school events into my schedule (looks like next year though as nothing really fits this year). I would love to have you for this coming Monday's STT Grattan LED event (July 5th), but I can't afford your salary unless Dan helps paying for it! ::) ;D
I definitely recommend GP shift. Esp. on the smaller bikes where you're shifting more.. Not only for left handers but also for right handers.. when you're leaning over it's just easier to push down on the pedal then having to get underneath it and lift up. EX: At VIR T1 & 2 leaned over for that double right.
Also, I have a quickshifter and I can't imagine trying it with standard shift pattern.
I decided to switch to GP the first time I was really "on it" at Summit Point going from T7 to T8 (fast right to fast left)...it was everything I had to grab the upshift as I'm trying to push down with my left foot to get the bike over at the same time. Finished my first race and switched to GP...after that weekend rode around the neighborhood to get used to it and that's that.
whatever works for you is the point but there are real world reasons (as Super Dave mentioned) that make the difference, if you can just spend a few to get used to it.
It doesn't matter. Do what works for you. I raced dirt bikes my whole life and tried GP after I started road racing and I lost many races for 2 years because I tried to switch. I went back to normal pattern and actually like it better and feel it is the reason I can accomplish the times I do at many tracks.
There are many top level riders who use regular pattern shifting. Obviously they both work.
There are faults to using GP style shifting but I won't disclose those. That's left for you to find out.
So yes actually I'm a regular style guy. I have always believed to do what feels right for you & your riding style.
It doesn't make you faster or slower which way you shift. Just learn how to ride the thing.
It's so funny to me that riders think that changing their shift pattern will make all the difference in their lap times. ;D
It's time to spend your money on a good roadracing school and learn how to set up your bike.
The only way to get faster is through hard work & dedication to the sport of racing. Through understanding how a motorcycle works completly will you only be able to go faster. All those expensive gadgets don't mean anything if you don't know what they were really made for. ;)
I look forward to writing more post on this site. Have fun getting your bikes ready for next season.
Well said Jason So what are the disadvantages to gp shift ;D
Stumpy
My reasons for using regular style shifting have nothing to do with making gear changes. It's more about weight placement on the pegs at certain times on certain tracks. Some downshifts have to be made too quickly right before you throw the bike to the right after making a left sweep.
Now I don't know how you turn your bikes but it hard to turn it with only your heel on the peg instead of the ball of your feet. Something taught to everyone their first day in roadracing school. When I tried GP shifting I couldn't get the bike turned in as quick and I didn't have control of the bike because I had to get my foot back over the shifter and positioned onto the peg. It's easier to slide it straight back than to pull it out from under the shift pedal. Either way the shifting part isn't a problem. It's the placement of the foot after the shifting is done.
If your shifting while cranked over through a left hander you shouldn't be shifting at that time anyways and if you absolutely must try shift up one gear prior to that spot. Or maybe your hanging off the wrong way on the bike which 80% of all regional level riders do. Get the weight to the inside and get the bike to stand up more through the turn.
Maybe you ride different than I do so maybe you like it better GP Style. But think about all the little things that get affected if you do change. Not many guys look into stuff like that. You need to kind of be a complainer to yourself while on the track. If you don't like something fix it to work better to suit your needs. Don't just sit on the bike and ride it for what it is. Make it what you want it to do.
There are many other instances where I like regular style shifting better because of weight placement on the pegs. I can give specifics but you might not ride like that so it might not bother you. Do what works for you. Just because most GP guys do it doesn't mean it's better. Think outside the box. Don't assume cause everyone else is doing it you should too.
I have had very close calls to ending my racing career because of shifting the wrong way while trying to change over. I almost took out many people several times. Imagine coming out of the old kink at Road America and shifting down instead of up with a freight train of guys behind you!! I got bumped and sent 2 guys into the grass. The whole time I didn't know which way to shift to correct it. I got confused. Once you develop an instinct it's sometimes embedded in your brain to do something when you think a certain way. Like quick reaction timing you just do what natraully comes to you. Now shifting normal pattern since the age of 5 and racing since 5. It's hard to change.
Ever hear of the street guy who hits someone head on while actually trying to avoid an accident. It happens all the time. It's because his natural quick reaction timing is to steer away from the accident because that's whay you do in a car is to turn away from the accident. So he actually countersteers right into it. Thats what its like for someone to change after doing it for so many years.
All I've got to say is I'm much happier shifting normal style and its relaxing to me not having to think about it. If you can overcome that go for it. But like I said don't think if you have GP shifting that everything is going to be perfect. Nothing's perfect unless its a woman. ;D Sorry ladies had to do it. :P
I don't think either method is better. What matters is what works best for YOU.
QuoteNothing's perfect unless its a woman. ;D Sorry ladies had to do it. :P
Don't be sorry...
You are absolutely correct.
;D
gp seems to work much better on the track, i have all my bikes gp, but i ride standard shift bikes daily, i find that the only time i have a problem is after a near highside or something like that
I like GP. There's a reason most racers use it but as metioned before it's what works best for you. Once I tried it and gave it a few laps to get used to it I've never gone back.
QuoteI like GP. There's a reason most racers use it but as metioned before it's what works best for you. Once I tried it and gave it a few laps to get used to it I've never gone back.
I think a lot of racers use it because they
think it's going to make them faster, or because they think it's the "thing" to do. It's all preference.
I street shift. So does Kevin Schwantz and a bunch of other pretty fast guys. Why? Because it's their preference.
QuoteYou may be right, Dave! I'll give GP shift another try I guess during my coming trackday at Grattan with STT on July 5th! ;)
In my experience, I really didn't feel/notice any advantage of GP shift when using it except for the long left sweepers that required a shift in the middle of the corner. My bike shifts really good, and I have never got a false neutral (true Honda quality). ;D I personally like to tap down on the downshift (easier shift than hooking the shifter up as you said) as I personally think precise downshift is more important as corner entry speed and exiting speed is what really makes a bigger difference in lap time (try to get a higher average cornering speed when you mis-shift going into a corner is basically impossible). ::)
Regarding concentrating on riding........... Everything you said about how the bike handles, how the bike gets traction, staying on the intended/desireable line, maximizing speed, etc, are riding! ;) At least that's what I meant when I said to concentrate on riding. ;D
I do know exactly what springs I have in my front and rear suspension and all the sag numbers plus all the damping setting. ;D I am pretty picky in nature, so I tend to feel every details in how my bike acts when riding. ::)
For corners that required extra shifting in the middle of the corner, I too thought about a gearing change so that I wouldn't need to shift in the middle of the corner, but then with a smaller displacement bike (less HP/Torque), there are just compromise that will need to be make in certain tracks with certain layouts. Changing sprocakets for a different gear ratio for the long sweepers to avoid extra shifting tends to mess up all other gearing in technical area (tighter turns) as I can't stay in the power band in a higher gear or revving the life out of the motor still going too slow in a lower gear (my bike doesn't have a desireable close ratio gearbox)............. I rather compromise for the long sweepers as I tend to make up more time in the technical section overall on a smaller displacement bike! ;)
Good info!
QuoteI think a lot of racers use it because they think it's going to make them faster, or because they think it's the "thing" to do. It's all preference.
I street shift. So does Kevin Schwantz and a bunch of other pretty fast guys. Why? Because it's their preference.
As mentioned before it's what will do it for you. There are alot of advantages to GP. Upshifting while cranked over in a left hand turn and overall ease. Give it a fair shake. A fair shake would be a full practice day or weekend, not one quick session. Again, I say GP. ;)