This weekend at topeka a guy was disqualified for not having the proper color of yellow on his number plates. I read the ccs rule book and it does not specify a certain color like john deere yellow. I also have the same color as he does which is called house of color yellow and it is a very bright yellow. When the number plates are either white or yellow I don't understand why they can't tell the difference. They tell me it looks green. Could someone clarify this for me. If they are going to be that particular specify in the rule book a yellow paint code that is acceptable
White is white, yellow is yellow, and chartreuse is NOT yellow. If it has a greenish tint, it is NOT yellow. If it is "pale yellow", it is not YELLOW. Similarly, if it is beige, cream or ivory, it is not WHITE.
Colors other than plain YELLOW can be very difficult for cornerworkers, scorers or other officials to differentiate when the bike is traveling at speed. I invite you to come up to the 'bridge to see firsthand the difference and importance of having the proper numbers/background on your bike.
:)
Think crayola-crayon yellow. Period. Been bust for having a bright lemon yellow, they made us repaint. :rollseyes: :biggrin:
why pass through at tech and THEN DQ? why not meatball if scorers cant read it or are having a problem with it?
I understand the delima, and can appreciate the trouble scorers have... but c'mon. It took him 2 mins to tape some "official CCS Yella" tape over his "optic yellow" paint. If he had known he would have been DQ'd he probably would have fixed the problem.
tough pill to swallow when you not only pay to race but lose contingency money... maybe I dont have all the facts... not looking to debate it, just thinking there is a better solution.
"change the color and we'll pass you" works better than "I hate that color, here's your tech sticker/sorry your DQ'd"
if someone is missing a belly pan or safety wire they arent passed... if they are missing a number plate no go... I have had to re-tech for forgeting my number on my helmet... this could have been avoided at many different levels.
Wow, that sucks. DQ'd for plates!? I agree, why not say something at tech.
Also, let's remember that colors are relative. What I see as "yellow" and what another sees can possibly be totally different. Throughout life we tend to hone are color definitions based on comparisons of what others think, but differences do exist. I am an expert on yellow and all it's variations, I can see how some of them would be very tough to read numbers on. Maybe they should print a range in the rulebook for someone to take to the paint aisle.
Makes one more reason to strive for expert status... not too many disputes on what is white.
They need to be more specific in the rulebook. They left it open for interpretation. If they don't specify it's thier own fault, not the racers.
I would protest it if they passed you through tech. Unfortunately now is too late... (and I am not sure if tech issues are protestable)
If they pass you through tech, you should be allowed to run it. If you were to fail tech, you at least had an opportunity to put some yellow duct tape on it and new numbers.
And yellow is yellow. There is no interpretation. If you're painting it with ANYTHING that has a green tint, etc, it's a SHADE of yellow, or a yellow blend. It's not "yellow". Try the can with "YELLOW" as the color name. Nothing else!
How the hell do you get more specific than "YELLOW" or "WHITE"?
This IS the fault of the racer.
I believe he questioned why it passed tech if it wasnt legal... but dont want to confuse facts. Maybe randy can jump in and give his side.
my point is simply noone should be DQ'd for this. If its not legal they shouldnt be allowed to race, should never have gotten to this point.
Quote from: Jeff on June 19, 2006, 02:00:44 PM
I would protest it if they passed you through tech. Unfortunately now is too late... (and I am not sure if tech issues are protestable)
If they pass you through tech, you should be allowed to run it. If you were to fail tech, you at least had an opportunity to put some yellow duct tape on it and new numbers.
And yellow is yellow. There is no interpretation. If you're painting it with ANYTHING that has a green tint, etc, it's a SHADE of yellow, or a yellow blend. It's not "yellow". Try the can with "YELLOW" as the color name. Nothing else!
How the hell do you get more specific than "YELLOW" or "WHITE"?
This IS the fault of the racer.
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff... no WAY is yellow yellow. My bike is "fly" yellow and in no way resembles base yellow (tractor yellow). There are many things that go into what makes a shade a shade and yellow has the most of any color. It is also the most expensive by a wide margin. I have no idea what all the factors are, just that yellow is a headache to define. I guess this portion of the argument is really irrelevant though because it all boils down to the tech question...
I would toss this as a tech screwup. Theres no standard for tech at different tracks. They all read the rulebook their way. Had an issue with one at Gateway in 03. Guy wouldnt pass my bike (which passed BHF tech in the same fashion since 99) because the throttle didnt snap shut as fast as he wanted it. All the rule book said is SELF CLOSING. Nothing on how fast. It closed on its own. Didnt snap closed, but closed within half a second of letting go. Guy was a prick about it and refused to look at the rule book and show me where it said how fast. His words "My track, my rules".
I went through tech and passed. Larry gave me the sticker. Ran my race, came in 2nd GTU and was disqualified at the end of the race because it was the improper yellow. He could have refused to pass me at tech and let me fix the plate then, but to DQ me AFTER the race is total BS. I tried to talk some sense into them but it was obvious that Judge and Jury was gonna take my $25 protest money away. It was enough to lose the $200+ in contingencies at that point. Not racer friendly at all.
one guy had bright yellow plates and they made him tape over it before passing tech. the tape job made the # harder to read.
meanwhile my mustardly yellow raised nary an eyebrow. Oh and while the shade of yellow is of utmost importance, to be scrutinized by a color 'expert'... the (inadvertant) lack of safety wire on my oil filler cap was passed over....hmmm :err:
so, to summarize: critical safety items are apparently taking a back seat to this obsessive policing of the dangerous shades of yellow. defining yellow is arbitrary and capricious and subjective at the least. To be DQ'ed over the shade of yellow (when it earned you a tech sticker) is *not* cool.. . and news flash = there are different shades of white too.
:ass:
sas, wanna really get his goat? Go to a automotive paint shop and get a bunch of yellow colour chips. Then ask Larry WHICH yellow does the rule book state and have him show you in the rule book where it states what colour yellow is required.
Seriously take a pic of it and email it to Kevin Elliott and ask him to define whats yellow. Maybe Kevin can get this BS cleared up.
I'll have to agree that this is basically crap. Randy came rushing back to the pits after his 2nd place looking for some yellow tape. As already pointed out, they DQed him anyway. The race entry fee, I could live with. But losing the contingency $$ is a tougher break. Racing is not a cheap hobby and many of us need the contingency money we earn just to keep going.
I hope Kevin does something about this. I've not always agreed with the way certian things are handled, but this one is over the top.
I know the 'shade of yellow' issue has been going on for years. And I have known of this specific situation for the last 2 seasons (even involved with it in a humoress way!)
Can't comment on the action taken at Topeka other than to say it probally could have been handled better.
My only real concern is the inconsistancy in what is acceptable in one region is rejected in another.
On a side note, bodywork for a number of bikes is becoming a challenge for everyone to display a legible/legal front number plate ('06 R6 comes to mind with the air intake size/location). Unfortunately, as Kimmie said earlier, what looks great sitting in your pit or garage isn't as important as what can be easily read as you cross the start/finish line at 150+ mph in a pack with 3 other bikes. Seems like more and more riders are trying to get by with as minimally sized number plate as possible and then squeeze the number so tight it is hard to read. I really think that this may be one reason why the entrire scrutiny of number plates has become such an issue.
Randy, I'm really sorry this ended up the way it did! :kicknuts:
Yellow and white are very easily defined. White is absence of any color. Yellow is primary color (primary colors are Yellow, Blue and Red) IE Yellow is color that does not include blue or red. add blue to yellow you get Green add red to yellow you get Orange
My point exactly Eric... If you buy paint bottled, canned or labelled as "YELLOW", you will be fine. Not "school bus yellow", "dandelion yellow", "bumblebee yellow" or any other "shade" of yellow. Just freaking yellow...
Yes, there are a million SHADES of yellow. Don't ask for a SHADE of yellow. Ask for YELLOW...
I think we all get the point as to what constitutes yellow. What is being ignored is the blatant disregard for any type of consistancy or enforcement.
The issue here (as far as I'm concerned) isnt that "my yellow is yellow enough". The issue is it NEVER SHOULD HAVE PASSED TECH. If it was bad enough to DQ a finish, it was bad enough to not get a sticker.
I'll be honest, it scares the shit outta me that oil filters and drain plugs are being overlooked. This is dangerous enough as it is. Yeah yeah yeah, its the racers responsibility, but why even have tech if thats your trump card?
If I have a crack in my helmet... I cant race until I find another
If I am missing a number on my helmet, I cant race until I get one on there
If I dont have my paperwork, I cant race til I get it
If I dont have a brake lever, I cant race till I get one on
If I dont have any number plates, I cant race till I get them
If I dont have safety wire per the rulebook, I cant race till I do
and....
If I dont have a legal color on my number plate, I cant race till its right!
What happened last weekend didnt "make things easier for scorers", it just irrated a paying customer. The scorers could have had their "yellow" without DQing the racer if tech had not passed him.
If you owned a burger king with a no shirt, no shoes, no service sign would you wait until the order had been taken and paid for by the guy in the flip flops (afterall theyre NOT shoes) and then kick out your customer without giving them their whopper with onion rings? Or tell them to change their footware and come back?
Poor customer service...
But Jeff, whens the lsast time you seen paint that can be used for painting odywork, labelled just as yellow? Every yellow paint I see has ******* yellow.
Going through HOK paint chips and every yellow has a name. There is no just yellow.
When I went through tech the first thing that was said was "Oh not that color yellow". I said that it was yellow and not white and that it was passed at the last CCS race what is the problem. I was told it is hard to tell the color on the track. That might be but when there are two colors white and yellow I don't see the problem. While at the tech line they did not check the mechanical workings of my bike, or that the brakes, levers, throttle, or safety wire. While he was pondering my yellow plates another tech official put a tech sticker on my bike. I didn't know what to think so fortunatly I had some other color yellow vinyl and an extra set of numbers. I feel sorry that Randy got DQ. I am sure had I not conformed I to would have been DQ. Every picture I have of my bike in action the plates look as yellow as whatever yellow is.
Well, no House of Kolor paint chip is strictly base. So I'll beg to differ.
As a person has been in design/graphics for over 2 decades, I can tell you there is no base white. In paint, white can be any number of shades, due to the amount of pigment used in their creation, titanium being the most common. The carrier also has some bearing on how "clean" the white will be. The closer the mix is to "absence of color" the cleaner they will appear in clean light. If you put a blue light on white, it skews blue, red light, skews it pink/red. Light affect color as well as "absence of color".
Just as in white, there are different yellows, including bizmuth, diarylide and cadmium. I would believe that a clean cadmuim would most closely be associated with the standard "yellow" the CCS/ASRA techs are looking for.
So thus the debate: What is yellow? If this persists to be an issue, CCS may want to come up with a card indicating the variations of yellow allowed.
Brief note: I just read an article in a Scientific American sister publication on how not only light, but perceived light affects color and shading, particularly in images. If the tech shed was "dark", and the track condition "light" the yellow would appear different in each situation.
I agree totally spyderchick The tech shed was dark but in the sunlight it is a nice shade of yellow. Flourecsent light also makes a difference. By the way is'nt cadmium yellow Bob Ross (the painter) favorite color along with vandyke brown, and yellow ochre
Flourecent light has a number indicating the color range it throws off.
In my shop, I think there's a bunch of diffent color grades of tubes, they got all jumbled as they were replced over the years. Most are in the yellow range.
We replaced tubes in the back room that I had just painted a nice "oops paint" powder blue. The flourecents skew toward the blue spectum, so stuff looks really strange back there, almost ethereal.
Light affects color, as light basically is color.
Quote from: spyderchick on June 20, 2006, 12:59:59 PM
Well, no House of Kolor paint chip is strictly base. So I'll beg to differ.
Neither is PPG, Chromacolor, Matrix and the other systems. Also what color the base coat can affect the final colour. Also as Vale said, lighting will change it also.
Also some people see colors differently than others. Problem here is tech doesnt have a set way that is standardized so its the same at all tracks CCS uses and not completely different at every track like it is now.
I used Safety Yellow (Duplicolor) when I painted mine.
I was indirectly in involved in a similar issue last month at BFH, The tech individual did not like someones plate color (which BTW VERY much resembled this guy, :ahhh: and then pointed at my bike and said that color yellow. Now the paint I use is almost orange but seems to be prefered. What I can safely say is that my plates are certainly not "Primary Color Yellow" but seem to be prefered by tech. BTW if you look at the crayola color chart http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/pub/networks/pajek/doc/crayola.pdf (http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/pub/networks/pajek/doc/crayola.pdf) My "tech prefered" plates are actually Goldenrod.
I realize that the timing and scoring people have a difficult job and that issues like this can make that job even harder but I think that a DQ is pretty harsh considering there didn't seem to be agreement between the various officials. I think the earlier suggestion of a color chip card like any paint store uses, with a range (BTW I think an acceptable RANGE is important, otherwise no ones plates will be legal) of acceptable yellow, is a good idea, especially if the consequences are DQ. Then just hold the color card up to the plate, anywhere, any light and the plate is clearly legal or it is not. Color is just soooo subjective.
Maybe Pantone Yellow from this chart would be a good starting point........
http://www.logodesignworks.com/pantone_color_chart.htm
As far as I know the Pantone color charting system is one of the most universally accepted color matching systems out there. It was specifically designed to avoid problems such as this in matching graphic presentation colors.
Great, I have to paint my number plates within the next couple weeks. What is a guy to do? :ahhh: The Pantone Yellow and the golden rod yellow are more MUSTARD than YELLOW. :wtf: and they like that? I would be soooo unhappy if I got the boot for such a trivial reason....
That was my point YZF, I would recommend that you use the Pantone Yellow or the Goldenrod. Until someone makes a move to define what CCS is looking for this seems to be what they want. I have seen several people scolded or told to change their plate before they could race for very bright yellow plates. Stay toward the "Mustard" or orangish side of yellow.
See? This is where light comes into it, because the Pantone is reading a basic mid-tone yellow on my computer, no mustard undertone at all, so the monitor you use can be a handicap as well. :rollseyes: What's a rider to do? :ahhh:
I'm curious - why the banning of fluorescent yellow (which does tend towards a green tint)? Because I've been very very tempted over the years to change our rules to require the fuorescent yellow color rather than the normal schoolbus/John Deere yellow since it's mcuh easier for the scorers to read which helps when the numbers themselves are sketchy.
OR, we could just get electronic scoring...
Quote from: Burt Munro on June 20, 2006, 07:39:16 AM
I know the 'shade of yellow' issue has been going on for years. And I have known of this specific situation for the last 2 seasons (even involved with it in a humoress way!)
Can't comment on the action taken at Topeka other than to say it probally could have been handled better.
Randy, I'm really sorry this ended up the way it did! :kicknuts:
I told Larry that I couldn't believe that he DQ'd me for yella plates, he said I'd get over it and I will. I had my fun with Larry for a while but it had to end, just disappointed that it was done in this manner. But thanks for endorsing the Official CCS Yeller Rick!
Quote from: Jeff on June 20, 2006, 06:38:09 PM
OR, we could just get electronic scoring...
I understand that Laya had the proper CCS yella plates at ROC but was DQ'd because his transponder malfunctioned during the race. He had clearly won his championship race by a large margin but the backup manual scoring didn't matter.
Quote from: Mongo on June 20, 2006, 06:06:59 PM
I'm curious - why the banning of fluorescent yellow (which does tend towards a green tint)? Because I've been very very tempted over the years to change our rules to require the fuorescent yellow color rather than the normal schoolbus/John Deere yellow since it's mcuh easier for the scorers to read which helps when the numbers themselves are sketchy.
Hmmm, maybe I won't have to repaint my plates after all?
I suppose bringing the can of yellow paint with YELLOW written on it and arguing with them wouldn't help either would it. (probably make things worse)
you better have to repaint next year.... grumblegrumblesandbaggingrumblegrumble :cheers:
could have been handled differnt, I feel for ya ray ray!
This is just way too Fucking funny...
Quote from: jer271 on June 20, 2006, 08:50:26 PM
This is just way too Fucking funny...
I agree. I almost though about explaining in depth, why flourecent lights really, really suck when looking at colors under them (they have a very low CRI - Color Rendering Index, Yes I work as a lighting engineer). But iI though better of it.
CCS should have meatballed instead of DQ'ed. :kicknuts:
I personally think its bullshit that happend the way it did, and everybody brings up a good point about the contingisy $$$$, but the over analization of the fact is histarical, especialy with some of the computer nerds on here .
I would have told them Ill have it changed for the next race and they will be repainted before the next CCS event if that didnt work I would then go grab Bill to make an exectutive decision on the DQ, if tHAT didnt work I would do what quite a FEW OF US are talking about and writing to wera on getting a midwest sched. and go race in a santion with some uniform. but I think talking to Bill would have done the trick so just be happy you guys get too race.
Let's just go with black.
Mark
Well, just a helpful hint - it usually doesn't get you very far threatening to go race with another org when you're having a problem. I'm just curious the reasoning behind the rule as CCS enforces it currently since my experience has been different I'd like to know what theirs is. Probably oughta take this private tho so I'll email them later.
Sean, I prefer the flo yellow as well.
It probably has to do with the paint application, because if you don't spray enough color, the white base can show through. Also, Neon/flourecent paints are not very UV stable, and can fade over time.
I've talked to some sign co peeps about doing vinyl vs paint to alleviate some of the issues.
Quote from: Burt Munro on June 20, 2006, 03:45:04 PM
Maybe Pantone Yellow from this chart would be a good starting point........
http://www.logodesignworks.com/pantone_color_chart.htm
As far as I know the Pantone color charting system is one of the most universally accepted color matching systems out there. It was specifically designed to avoid problems such as this in matching graphic presentation colors.
Bingo!
http://www.logodesignworks.com/pantone_color_chart.htm
on this chart, what is the difference between process yellow and pantone yellow? ..I will take serpents bingo as a go ahead with pantone yellow. Leary that is has a descriptive prior the yellow though..
Quote from: spyderchick on June 21, 2006, 10:12:01 AM
It probably has to do with the paint application, because if you don't spray enough color, the white base can show through. Also, Neon/flourecent paints are not very UV stable, and can fade over time.
Spyderchick you are very right, it does fade very quickly. You are talking to someone with experience in that department. The paint is hard to spray, and fades to a chalky whiteish yellow quickly. Vic's bike sees the sun only at race weekends when it's on track and it's faded quite a bit in the 2 years since he has sprayed it. I think that there should be a standard...ok we all use 1991 Subaru Electric Yellow (My plates color which by the way is a bright yellow.) And we allow this much for the fact that the paint was sprayed very quickly or that it has faded. The whole DQ thing sucks because you shouldn't have passed tech in the first place. Either way there needs to be some type of a standard.
Quote from: jer271 on June 20, 2006, 10:12:17 PM
I would have told them Ill have it changed for the next race and they will be repainted before the next CCS event if that didnt work I would then go grab Bill to make an exectutive decision on the DQ, if tHAT didnt work I would do what quite a FEW OF US are talking about and writing to wera on getting a midwest sched. and go race in a santion with some uniform. but I think talking to Bill would have done the trick so just be happy you guys get too race.
Jeremy,
Bill was right there while I pleaded my case. He said whatever Larry ruled he would back him. That's what I meant by Judge and Jury, I would have wasted $25 protesting this. I am happy that I get to race, but would like to be treated fairly. Bill could have stepped in here and common sense should have prevailed, but in this case it did not.
After recieving some interesting information from an outside source, I have decided to remove my previous post. Seems someone may not be telling the exact truth about how all this went down.
sorry for your loss then. that is bullshit, you think having a professionaly paintrd bike that looks nice and is uniform woud be easyer too see. :boink: again sorry it happend too ya.
Quote from: yzfkneedragger on June 21, 2006, 02:16:11 PM
http://www.logodesignworks.com/pantone_color_chart.htm
on this chart, what is the difference between process yellow and pantone yellow? ..I will take serpents bingo as a go ahead with pantone yellow. Leary that is has a descriptive prior the yellow though..
Read the paragraph above the chart for an explanation in difference.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on June 21, 2006, 09:33:06 PM
After recieving some interesting information from an outside source, I have decided to remove my previous post. Seems someone may not be telling the exact truth about how all this went down.
Hi Chris,
I am interested in what you meant by your post about untruth. Are you referring to me? If so, everything I have posted regarding this matter has been the exact truth. Larry and I have had fun with this yellow plate thing since last season, every race he says "I hate that color", but gives me the tech sticker and I race without issue. I promised him at RA this year that the next time I crash I will repaint it. He has been OK with that until this race. Honestly, someone inside CCS told me he got some grief from the ladies in the scoring tower during the race and he took it out on me. I didn't start this topic, but felt compelled to give details about it after people were speculating. Larry and I even shared a good laugh with a can of paint that I relabeled to say it was Official CCS Yeller at Road America. In the past we laugh every time he sees me because he says "I hate that color" (even when I am not on the bike). I am over it and would prefer to see this thread die. You can contact me and I would be happy to tell all the first hand details about the Yellow plates if you want.
Well there ya go! You've been told repeatedly, right? But you didn't change the color, right? So they finally DQ'd you, right? Sounds way beyond fair to me!
From what I gathered after reading this thread, CCS officials had swooped down and busted your balls out of the blue, costing you wood, contingency, and points. That seemed totally unreasonable to me. Obviously this was not the case, as you have now pointed out yourself. I guess I just must have misunderstood. Anyhow, I'm glad I took down my post about the Nazis, Facists, and such....
:banghead:
if there is no specification of color, how can a color be wrong? they don't say anything about hue, tint, shade, range or anything else. time for ccs/asra to get specific. gray areas in rule books are a pain in the ass.
also, if in a case like layas where back up manual scoring didn't make a difference wtf difference does it make what color your plates are?
someon said black......i agree. white w/black numbers for ex. black w/white numbers for am's. perfect! can't hardly screw that up.
blk/wht wht/blk
Combined race... I just picture this pack of zebras running across the line... LOL
fact is, any color they say will have it variances so they need to specify one particular color. if it's
sweet georgia peach pink , so be it, that's the color it has to be but not yellow, red or blue because you know everyone will pick their own favorite tint, shade, tone, hue or whatever.
Quote from: weggieman on July 27, 2006, 02:53:04 PMalso, if in a case like layas where back up manual scoring didn't make a difference wtf difference does it make what color your plates are?
That pretty much sum's up the whole point. Well put.
Quote from: weggieman on July 27, 2006, 03:27:25 PM
... if it's sweet georgia peach pink , so be it, that's the color it has to be ...
See? There you go. All AMs must now run Sweet Georgia Peach Pink plates with black letters. :biggrin:
Most excellent Gordy!
To me yellow is yellow and white is white. As a corner worker I am more inclined to call controll to look at someone for a number issue unless the color was not visible at all. Sometimes with the homemade numbers esp. on the nose it is hard to read. Like was that 10x that was smoking or was that 10 with some bug splatter on the plate. Clearly indicating colors on the plates as well as numbers is critical esp. for the safety crews. As my example above it could be down to your bike locking up or you getting pulled off for no reason. .However if tech passed you I don't understand why minds were changed later. Hopefully Kevin can help you out with this problem you had. :thumb:
We used to do white on black for Novices, they were harder to read than black on yellow so we quit doing that.