http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781
Perhaps you should also put this in the Motorcycle Racing Section incase this area isn't checked.
Dawn
I'd prefer not to double post. Just figured I'd put it in the announcements section so it didn't get lost under General Racing discussion.
Sticky it...
I lost it here.
Well lets see here, I was wearing an HJC helmet at the last blackhawk when I decided to visit rockford area hospital and my fricking brain was swoolen
Which model, Jeremy?
Quote from: Jeff on May 18, 2006, 01:49:23 PM
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25781
But Hutchinson said that only two HJC models have been banned. "The CS and CL, I believe," Hutchinson said in a phone interview. "All the rest are fine with us, but until we investigate this and find out more about it, we're not going to allow riders to use those helmets."Per the RRW article...
let me make sure but I am pretty sure it was "cl" someting. I dont want to bash the product but this was something me and my dad said had to change, I was in the market for a Shoei or arai after this crash.
I was looking at the helmet it didnt crack or anything but Iwas knocked out pretty bad this time (so I was told) - and last 3 times Ive crashed Ive had the same type helmet and My noggin has been concused pretty bad so Iwas gonna change brands.
Like I said I am not trying too bash the product I want to try something else because of all the cocusions, I think Iam up too about 4 in thew last 2 years with out hiting the ground hard at all in those accidents and the last crash was pretty serious.
CL-14 is the model
Quote from: jer271 on May 18, 2006, 10:52:36 PM
CL-14 is the model
If you read the article, the CL and CS models are the ones that have specifically been banned by LRRS. Get an Arai. Pricey, but then again, what's your head worth? :banghead: :biggrin:
Quote from: jer271 on May 18, 2006, 08:44:53 PM
I was looking at the helmet it didnt crack or anything but Iwas knocked out pretty bad this time (so I was told) - and last 3 times Ive crashed Ive had the same type helmet and My noggin has been concused pretty bad so Iwas gonna change brands.
Like I said I am not trying too bash the product I want to try something else because of all the cocusions, I think Iam up too about 4 in thew last 2 years with out hiting the ground hard at all in those accidents and the last crash was pretty serious.
I have yet to have a concussion. I currently wear Suomy. I've worn Suomy, Bieffe (now not in existance), Bell, and Arai.
Arai, Shoei, and Suomy are your best bets in my opinion. Suomy uses a motorcycle specific standard. If you want info on that, I can give you a link. It's very different from the car racing origin Snell standard that Arai, Shoei, and some HJC helmets have.
http://www.saferacer.com/hjcclsoco.html
Looks like the CL14 is DOT and Snell M2000 rated.
Obviously, I think it is important to recognize that the LRRS has temporarily banned this helmet based on generalizations from racing crashes, not on any kind of specific testing data that is available.
Also important to note is that HJC does not reccomend the CS/CL lines for competition use, per the rrw article.
I was wearing an HJC AC11 helmet when I crashed rather hard at BHF 3 weeks ago, 2 bike collision and I highsided, head was the first thing to hit the track. I will admit I got my bell rung but I didn't have a headache or any other symptoms, except for a broken ankle and a bruised back. The helmet shows a 2 inch patch where the first layer of fiberglass was removed on impact but no other damage. I have since replaced it with another AC11.
I have worn HJC on the street for 3 years and now at the track, I like the shape of the liner, it is more comfortable for me than any other helmet I have worn. Just keep in mind what you are buying, HJC, like all the other manufacturers, makes low, mid, and high end helmets, the AC series is marketed toward the racing community.
Quote from: Hawk on May 29, 2006, 03:20:56 AM...the AC series is marketed toward the racing community.
I think that's the problem.
Racing is a small market.
If a helmet meets the racing safety standards, there should be reason to believe that it's useable in competition.
No racing organization requires a user to check with the manufacturer of a helmet to see which one is "racing approved". I feel it's a very uncomfortable set up when a manufacturer says, "Yeah, these all have the same standard, but these aren't good enough for competition."
One, you still can hit your head hard on the street. Two, I haven't looked, but does that manufacturer state that certain helmets are not to be used in competition?
When I went to HJC's website http://www.hjchelmets.com/products.htm (http://website%20http://www.hjchelmets.com/products.htm) they did not specifically state that the CL/CS series helmets should not be used in competition. they did however clearly break their line down into 3 catagories, Entry level, Mid line and then the High end. The CS series falls into the low end catagory, the CL series the Mid line catagory and the AC line falls into the high end. They further state that all their sponsored riders wear out of the box AC helmets.
Interesting to note is that the price difference between the Mid and High end HJC helmets is roughly one entry fee. My preference is to skip one class the first weekend and buy the High end helmet.
On the standards issue, I think this is a matter of the specific standard that a sanctioning body adopts, No one claims that the snell M2000 or M2005 is a competition rating. Years ago snell split the motorcycle rating off because drivers in auto racing were suffering head injuries due to the fact that they are so securly restrained that their helmets were hitting the roll bar in the same place repeatedly in the same crash. They developed the SA rating to require a stronger shell but were afraid this might cause neck injuries to cyclists since the shell would no longer absorb impact energy as easily. If I'm not mistaken CCS only requires a DOT approval. While my AC11 and the CL14 both carry the snell M2000 rating that only implies that both meet the minimum criteria for the rating. With the AC11 being a fiberglass composite shell and the CL14 being a plastic shell clearly the AC11 will exceed the CL14 in strength although both will meet the snell rating.
In the end I think you can find helmets in virtually any manufacturers line that are not suitable for competition use. Marketing is what it is, not everyone is going to pony up $400 or more for a helmet so the manufacturers cater to all levels of quality and price. Remember what we are doing here and don't skimp on the safety gear.
I stopped getting concussions when I switched to Suomy. The BSI rating is the reason. Snell helmets are too stiff for a motorcycle rider.
Jeremy, your head has always looked a bit swolen to me. Didn't you used to wear a helmet to school on that short bus?
(J/K, glad you're OK!)
It's the foam on the inside that absorbs the impact. Too hard and your brain still gets rattled, too soft and you just smush the pavement. I crashed in a CL-12, didin't think I'd hit that hard but I don't remember it.
True...but if the exterior shell is hard, the internal impact can be "fast" where on some where the shell is designed to be less rigid, the shell is part of the process that slows the impact.
I'd like to know how a CL is able to pass certifications, yet HJC says it's not for racing. And where on the helmet does it say this.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 22, 2006, 11:46:16 AM
I'd like to know how a CL is able to pass certifications, yet HJC says it's not for racing. And where on the helmet does it say this.
Dave I believe the certifications are meant to be a minimum standard. A DOT approved helmet meets a certain minimum standard of protection but may or may not meet the Snell minimum. Snell is better than DOT but doesn't mean that 2 snell rated helmets are equal. If I have a bag certification standard that requires the bag to hold 10 pounds without ripping and you make a bag that can hold 30 pounds without ripping your bag can carry my certification and so can John Smiths, which can hold 15 pounds. Both bags are certified for a 10 pound load, which is better if you accidentally overload?
I don't believe that HJC specifically states that the CL/CS lines should not be used in competition, Just that the AC line was developed/recommended for competition
There is no research that states one standard is better than another.
And the CL "meets or exceeds Snell & DOT standards"...
http://www.hjchelmets.com/cl14.htm
Same as their AC
http://www.hjchelmets.com/ac12.htm
If these standards are the minimum, then someone please link to standards that are necessarily above them?
I use BSI helmets. I think that it's better, but there is no research that shows it to be necessarily better than a Snell or DOT helmet.
Quote from: Hawk on June 22, 2006, 01:42:05 PM
If I have a bag certification standard that requires the bag to hold 10 pounds without ripping and you make a bag that can hold 30 pounds without ripping your bag can carry my certification and so can John Smiths, which can hold 15 pounds. Both bags are certified for a 10 pound load, which is better if you accidentally overload?
I don't believe that HJC specifically states that the CL/CS lines should not be used in competition, Just that the AC line was developed/recommended for competition
I'll agree that I looked at the release from HJC stating their "recommendation" on using the AC.
As for standards...and helmets...
There are a lot of helmet manufacturers out there with varying degrees of manufacturing quality, etc. If it were simply a case of the standard were so wide, I would believe that Jerry Wood and the safety staff at Loudon would have also raised questions about other lower costing helmets that aren't neccessarilly "recommended" for racing...
And if i street rode...would I want a helmet with less protection? I think I have more to hit on the street.
hey K3................................. :finger:...... :lmao:that was funny though!
Quote from: Super Dave on June 22, 2006, 02:26:10 PM
There is no research that states one standard is better than another.
And the CL "meets or exceeds Snell & DOT standards"...
http://www.hjchelmets.com/cl14.htm
Same as their AC
http://www.hjchelmets.com/ac12.htm
If these standards are the minimum, then someone please link to standards that are necessarily above them?
I use BSI helmets. I think that it's better, but there is no research that shows it to be necessarily better than a Snell or DOT helmet.
Dave, there are hundreds of DOT approved helmets (just for clarity we are only going to discuss full face since snell will not test open face helmets) which do not carry the snell rating. Since the only requirements for a snell rating are submission of said helmet to snell and said helmet passing the tests I have to conclude that the snell rating is more difficult to receive. I'll read that as a higher standard.
As to the appropriateness of the snell rating to racing, snell has a special rating for automotive competition, the SA rating. Maybe the motorcycle community needs to petition the foundation to develop a standard for motorcycle racing?
http://www.smf.org/standards/pdf/mstds_cmp.pdf (http://www.smf.org/standards/pdf/mstds_cmp.pdf)
Wanna go further?
Snell doesn't batch test helmets. So, you can send in twelve helmets, I'm just pulling a number, and all the helmets that are produced get the sticker, regardless of the variations in production during many runs going through thousands of helmets.
Regardless, both HJC helmets carry a Snell sticker. There are other standards too, BSI/EU and DOT, but neither has been proven to be better than another.
Many different ways to fill the bag with ten or thirty pounds. Regardless, the said HJC helmet, which carries both DOT and Snell standards, similar to other low cost brands and models and higher cost brands and models, are not the focus of a simple safety concern based on outright experiences of a safety crew in a racing organization...too many concussions for the get off...and others on this thread are even expressing a potential problem.
I don't recognize any way to completely eliminate concussions through helmet technology. Give a person a hard enough impact, and one can get it.
Is it the standards fault? Is it a fault in the specific production of a manufacturers helmet that is not batch tested? The batch testing might be more telling.
With reference to the batch testing, or testing at all for that matter. A little reading today and I found that NOBODY tests for DOT compliance, The manufacturer simply certifies that the helmet meets the standard and everybody believes them. :ahhh:
The technologies exits to create new standards based on a specific enviroment. 20 years ago there was a single snell standard for all motorcycle and automotive racing helmets, a while back the auto racing organizations were seeing serious head injuries due to the restrained driver hitting his helmet against the roll bar repeatedly in the same location so the response from snell was a more durable shell. The motorcycle rider was then at risk from the additional stiffness so they split the certification into SA and M. As I said maybe it is time for a motorcycle racing spec.
All things considered if you like HJC helmets why not spend the extra $50-$100 to get the best one they make, this is just not the place to save a few bucks. There are people riding motorcycles that given the choice between a $200 helmet and going without will choose going without so with that in mind I don't want to see the manufacturers stop making entry level helmets but they don't belong on a racetrack.
Quote from: Hawk on June 23, 2006, 05:08:06 PM
As I said maybe it is time for a motorcycle racing spec.
Why? Because street riders don't hit the ground as hard or as often?
I'm not arguing, I just don't understand why.
Regardless, the helmets in question were Snell. Maybe the problem lies with Snell certifying that helmet, or a mass production flaw.
I don't wear one, but if a simple look at easy get offs shows something, I'm glad Jerry Wood had the balls to do something.
One of the big gripes with the current M snell spec is the maximum allowable G force. A number of authorities in the field are calling for a lower figure, the M spec is currently 300G for 2 milliseconds. Some feel this number should be brought down to 200. That would certainly reduce the chances of a concussion but to do so would require snell to drop the multi strike in the same location rating which they don't want to do. I agree that street riders fall every bit as often and every bit as hard as we do but if we introduce a new standard then maybe people could choose based on what they do. Right now the sanctioning body is stuck with the available rating systems and we're stuck with the standards they chose to require.