Anyone know how? I mean really know how the pro's do it?
I've watched 'em live in person at Road America and have rented tapes and done the whole s l o w motion bit.
It doesn't appear that they're locking the back or spinning it up either. Is it so simple that I'm missing it?!?!
Lastly, if anyone does know this "trick" how do you begin attempting it???
Thanks in advance for any help!
couple of methods one is with rear brake other is by downshifting.
Flat track racing or dirt bike is easiest way to learn/practice, I am not any good and gave up after landing on my head too many times
It's called riding the wheels off of you motorcycle! They are just riding the motorcycle so fast it's gonna slide around. I don't think that they try to. If anything it slows them down a bit.
The pros tend to do it mostly by dropping the clutch all at once and letting the rear slide out. I believe the easiest way to learn is by doing it on the ice (if you have that option).
Downshift on the entrance to the corner and let the clutch out all at once. If you let it out slowly you will end up highsiding, and if you downshift too much, you will do the same, so it's one of those things that you must thread a fine line to get it right.
Actually, the pros who choose to slide with the clutch do so by modulating the clutch fairly carefully, as dumping it tends to leave them few options; that would be like having toggle switch instead of a rear brake lever. If you're hard on the front brakes, it takes very little to lock the rear wheel, and engine braking is more than enough to do so. The important thing, as I've been told, is to shift quickly so that the clutch can be re-engaged quickly and then modulated as available traction dictates.
Actually, if you can get a video of Doug Chandler, he uses the clutch to back it in and you can actually see it if you look carefully. Duhamel uses the clutch and the rear brake. You can actually hear his rear brake squeak when he uses the thumb brake button he has. If you just dump the clutch, the back end will hop, as you can see if you go to an amatuer race and watch a less experienced rider overcook a corner. Just my .02, but I dirt tracked as a kid. It's a little different on the dirt, but you get used to the bike sliding so you aren't as likely to panic when you do it on the asphalt.
Backing it in is a method. It's not just happening.
It gets the turning done quicker by allowing more effective lean angle with the rear hung out. Example, the front wheel is at a 15 degree lean angle, but the back is hung out. This allows for more effective lean angle. A rider trying to go the same speed at the same point of the radius that they follow would have to be at a greater overall lean angle.
Ice or dirt is the easiest way to learn. Less traction, less stuff to wreck, slower speeds.
The brake has to be a better way of doing it. Most of the Superbikes have slipper clutches. Not sure how that would work with one.
The trick is that as you're braking in a straight line, the rear wheel is light. As you turn it in, more weight gets put back on the rear wheel, and you're letting off the front brake...
So, you'll slow the rear wheel to less than the actual ground speed. You've got to get it to hook up as you turn in, or the back end will come around.
Pretty complicated, but it is learnable...
Jason Pridmore showed us how it is done and it is done with the clutch. He does not teach this method but he will show you if you ask.
Kipp used the clutch too. His method was to pull in the clutch, shift all his gears, then let out the clutch. Lots of drive line lash. There was a period where he was destroying transmissions doing this.
But you've got to learn the technique. Go get an XR100 or a TTR125 and go out on the ice...
Sorry, this one is exclusive to where it's cold...LOL!
Of course, you can go out and do it in the back yard...
I realy want to do this too, not because I think I will go faster but just for track days,etc.. If Super Dave can teach me this I will go to his class,let me know.
Thanks
I really don't use it myself. I'm traditional in that I use the front brake going in. Best thing to do would be to get a little dirt bike and start playing on it.
In a certain way, it does potentially require a different geometry set up.
It looks cool, but is it really necessary? That has to be your first question. Then, if you make a mistake, are you prepared to toss away your road racer doing it? A nice TTR125 or and XR100 would be easier to experiment on.
I agree with Dave. I think it has to do with what you are used to. Nicky H grew up as a dirt tracker and is used to backing it in. For him it may be faster. He also has the advantage (as do most top level riders) of having a slipper clutch. I also use mostly front brake, but I have spent most of my career on a 250.
Interstingly, Nicky noted after being at a MotoGP race that the riders did not back it in. They set up their slipper clutches differently, to gain entry speed, not to back it in. I am interested to see if Nicky sets up his bike to back it in or if he will change his riding style.
I'd think he'll find some kind of happy medium. It's a tool, and he can use it. Will be interesting to see. And how McCoy adapts his speedway style to the Kawasaki.
You can get a similar result from using the front brake hard, but you're not controlling the skid of the rear tire, so it's a bit iffy when you do it...
I just wonder how the Honda will like it. Interested in seeing how well the Ducati does.
Have hung out the rear using the front brake. Very hard to control with the rear wheel in the air. Usually required a change of shorts.
QuotePosted by: Tim Chin Posted on: Jan 6th, 2003, 3:21pm
Actually, the pros who choose to slide with the clutch do so by modulating the clutch fairly carefully, as dumping it tends to leave them few options
I talked with a top midwest rider earlier in the week and he uses the technique mentioned above.
Who? I can't think of any experts that I've seen really back it into a corner.
S-Dave, Just a question- Can you teach this?? I am also interested in figuring this out. Perhaps offering a clinic and see how much interest you get. I can do it on a dirt bike but want to make sure I know whats going on before I try it at speed. I don't want to do this to gain any speed, I just thing it looks cool and feel cool in the dirt.
Ok, ok... it does look cool. You can work on it on your own. Get a dirt bike, make an oval on the ice, dirt, or pavement... practice practice practice... it has a certain feel to it. You need to get aclimatized for it.
Me? I would go to American Supercamps for it. You'll do it all day long for two days. That would be a good introduction...
There are only a few places I was able to back it in and have it work to my advantage. Turn one and the entrance to the chicane @ Daytona. And a little in turn ten @ Brainerd. The main reason it worked was due to the nature on the turns and the huge amount of brakes you are using. It helped to take some of the pressure off the front wheel. I was doing it using the clutch and it helped in these places, but other than that I try my best to keep two wheeles in line, at least entering the turn :)
I think that trying this on a regular basis would do nothing but hurt your lap times, unless this is a style you are used to.
I brought this up to the great Kevin Schwantz and he told me he could count the number of times he used the rear brake on one hand. he says to stay off it unless your in the dirt.
Keep it real,
SA
Steve,
You are a goober! You couldn't back into parking stall with scooter. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Matt
dude i can back my scooter in like no other. i am so good nicky would be envious.
QuoteThere are only a few places I was able to back it in and have it work to my advantage. Turn one and the entrance to the chicane @ Daytona. And a little in turn ten @ Brainerd. The main reason it worked was due to the nature on the turns and the huge amount of brakes you are using. It helped to take some of the pressure off the front wheel. I was doing it using the clutch and it helped in these places, but other than that I try my best to keep two wheeles in line, at least entering the turn :)
I think that trying this on a regular basis would do nothing but hurt your lap times, unless this is a style you are used to.
I brought this up to the great Kevin Schwantz and he told me he could count the number of times he used the rear brake on one hand. he says to stay off it unless your in the dirt.
Keep it real,
SA
I am curious to why anyone would try to back it in T1 at Daytona? The only reason i could see is that you are way off line.
The bike just seemed to do it buy itself. When i would grab my last down shift it would come around. It didn't seem to help that much and just seemed to happen.
Steve
QuoteI am curious to why anyone would try to back it in T1 at Daytona? The only reason i could see is that you are way off line.
While I was trying to re-obtain my lead in at Daytona this weekend, I found a new line through T-1 at Daytona, for the most part it worked well, actually the announcer even found it interesting to comment on the PA system.
I would go real low at the Start/Finish, then go in way inside, so I would cross the yellow line as early as possible. That way I can begin hard braking after the lines and not being afraid of bike sliding over the lines.Then I would aim for the outside of T1, and begin turn in as late as possible. That way, from Start/Finish I would basically go straight until turn in, or turn very little, that allowed me to brake harder, than if you go wide then turn toward turn1 as most people did.
I used both front and rear brakes and tried to back it in. I am no good at it, and if I was, I could have made up at least 1 second. I really tried, and it got hairy. I would keep the rear brake long enough to make the bike step out slightly, and then get on the gas and slide out toward T2. I didn't do it very well,but well enough to make up the time I lost on the trioval, and got noticed... I was told the announcer said "unusually techniques through turn 1".
I would like to practice it more and get it done. I have learned to slide on the exit to tighten the turn, but back it in seems good for certain turns as well, and a track like second half of CMP comes to mind, if you can pitch your bike sideways through those sharp turns, it would seem you can really shave some times
What were you riding and what were your times?
QuoteWhat were you riding and what were your times?
They were probably over 2 minutes as his line is completely wrong!
It does sound like the "old" line.
I hammered Nixon last March pretty bad in one over and over. He e-mailed me wanting to know how to do one... He's kind of a fun guy!
QuoteWhat were you riding and what were your times?
A R6 and it was over 2 minutes, probably 2:04 -06 range. I was suffering on the straights, so I wanted make up time in one... it seemed really work. Maybe it is "wrong" but it worked better than the other people's lines. Shouldn't the fastest line be the "right" line?
Well, those times will put you up with me on this older bike...
http://www.worldmotorcycles.com/Pages/daytona.html
So, you've got room. Probably about 10 seconds or so. Regardless, you should be shaving a good four off just by getting into the groove,
If what you were doing was working better than the guys around you, they were going your speed. You should be able to carry much more speed into one, go right around them. There is a neat window of opportunity there.
Your first time there?
it was my second time. Went down there last spring and had a good time. I never really figured out turn 1. Rode about 20 laps on Fri. In the rain, didn't pratice Sat morning, and just went out and raced.
How would a pro take turn 1?
I know I have a lot of room for improvement at Daytona, I wish I had more laps there. In Oct, I will take the extra practice day
Hard to explain quickly in detail this way. Watch how the superbikes will go "wide" after start finish. You've got to actually do it to feel how it should be. It makes more sense that way.
QuoteHard to explain quickly in detail this way. Watch how the superbikes will go "wide" after start finish. You've got to actually do it to feel how it should be. It makes more sense that way.
I will be sure to watch the races and see how they do it. and hopefully I can get some more time on the track in Oct so I can get better and hopefully win a race then. I love Daytona, it is a great sensational track.
btw those were really cool bikes, I plan on restoring a vintage race bike in the future and race it too... would love to be on the track following you and see you do the same lap time, I can surely learn a LOT of things
hey look at this cool pic, doesn't it look like I am "backing" it in ;) wish I had held them off all race...
http://www.formulausapics.com/2003FL/Pack/images/pack_FL0203_447.jpg
Hard to say. The wheels look lined up. No black mark behind you.
Found this tonight:
Well, this column certainly has seen some high points and low points the past year. Probably more accurately stated, I would say some I'm less proud of than others. In fact, the aftermath of the last column left me spewing my guts on the side of the highway. Literally. And although not glamorous, it's a must-do every now and then, to remind me alcohol is a poison and is to be respected. Changing gears, misconceptions are often a poison as well, in no way glamorous or respected. So why does every American street rider/racer want to know how to "back it into a turn"? This isn't speedway. We're not driving 'World of Outlaw' cars. So what's the infatuation? Why is it so critical to learn a technique you cannot use on a road race bike? I guess it just looks really cool.
You see, a few years back, when people began asking me this question, I treated it as a serious question and have tried to give the best explanation I could. Yet it just gets asked more frequently. The other night the question was thrown in my lap once again. This time by a cute little stripper grinding on me in the topless club. Yeah, this has gone way too far. It's time to get technical and clear the air.
I'll start by saying you don't point a road racer with the rear end. When you have a bike that only steers a few degrees each way, the rear always follows the front. I'm sure there are a few photos around to prove me wrong, immediately followed by a frame of the rider doing his best imitation of a rock star's ultimate stage dive! To all, I don't recommend trying this. It's unpleasant to say the least. Remember, the ideal situation would be to ride a bike as if it were on rails for the entire lap. Each and every racer or race team alike strives for perfection, yet like infinity, the further forward you advance, the further away the finish is.
This being the case, the bike you are riding is, at very best, just one step above being a shitbox, never quiet doing what you want it to do, and other times far worse than that. This being said only in comparison to perfection, because my Kawi is really a kick ass bike to ride.
Competition drives you to reach further, so when I'm entering a corner trying to outbrake the competition, the rear is trying to pass the front any way it can; up, over, or sideways. You can bet I'm cursing out my bike for this, and to make matters worse, the engine braking wants to make the rear tire feel as though it is locked up completely. At some point, you put pressure on the inside bar to enter the corner. The front brake is still struggling to stop the bike, so physically, following the path of lease resistance; the rear end kicks out, even though the rear brake has been left entirely alone. This constitutes a large portion of my setup woes every weekend. A problem we are constantly trying to band-aid. A problem that always costs you time trying to enter a corner. A problem that is difficult to control and can easily catch you out when the neck hits the steering stops, high-siding you violently into the corner, as I did in the German WSB round. Yet everyone I run into believes that is a good problem to have. Ironic, since following steering and traction, it is always a top complaint.
I know this is going to completely defeat my point, but for those who want to learn how to "back it into a turn" because they didn't learn a thing from this column, try this: find a nice 90º corner for 2nd gear. Come in hard, say from 4th gear, brake late and hard, backshift twice while using a small amount of rear brake and release the clutch slowly till the rear begins to slide. With a little practice, you will do it longer and smoother until you reach the turn. Ease up till the rear comes back in line with the front. Be sure in not hitting the steering stop by going too sideways. Have your buddy take a photo. Damn, that does look cool!
Ciao ragazzi.
#32 EricBostrom.com
©Copyright 2002 Lawdog Sports Management
Well put...
It is well put. Although some of our inspiration for finding a way to do it is because - we have progressed enough up the skill ladder to find the rear end of our bikes wanting to over take the front end. So instead of let it be and one day bit me, I rather found a way to control it so I wouldn't get tossed. The other option is to break earlier so I don't start turning with the brakes on. But the best part of my riding is late on the brakes, and into the corner, and as I work to improve my riding, and my set up, I found me going deeper and deeper and bikes more and more sideways. I rather do it under control.
So to me, getting the bike misaligned is a by product of my riding style. And I Rather make it a positive than a negative. I want to control the rear, and give myself a better exit angle.
I rather favorite sliding out of corners. I have been driving a rear wheel drive truck for years. I slide around any sharp turns when I drive. That is what I am use to. It gives you more space to exit, and a better line. So when I want to carry more speed through the corner, but not want to run wide, I start to experiement with sliding out. It start to take shape, and it really helps me getting faster. I never thought about trying to slide because it was cool, I did it to increase my corner speed potential and not run wide and crash. Well it does look cool, in the car or on the bike, but I learned how to slide in the car because I want to make an U turn without backing up twice...
It is perhaps shallow and dangerous to follow, emulate, and attempt styles/techniques just because others do it, or maybe it looks cool. But sometimes we can figure out a need for a new technique if you actually think about your riding, and what you are doing out there, AFTER you come off the track. I try to improve my riding by analyzing my riding bit by bit and try to come up with better ways to go around a track, and somethings, cool or not, just make more sense, or is unavoidable. Back it in, and sideways out, it seem like what would fit my style, so I want to master it and put it to use, only when I need to.
My goal is to be an skilled and intelligent racer, not just a fast racer.
Dave,
I noticed in the SS race and the Superbike race that most front runners that they showed used the line that I "tried" to describ. Go closer to the left side, almost to the grass, than going out wide on top of the track. They can do it better than I can, but that was the line in my head, maybe I didn't describ it right. Go across the yellow lines while sticking to the left, almost against the grass, then go out wide to 3/4 to the right side, then make a sharp turn in.
I think you need to watch the turn in. And they are going probably 25MPH+ faster than you.
SuperDave Osbourne (remember the guy?...j/k),
All this speaking of late braking has started me wondering. If the rear wheel lifts off the ground while turning in is it a geometry/suspension problem or is it just trying to brake too hard? I was bucked off heading into turn 7 at BHF last year when the rear lifted as I was straightening up after the kink and I let it swing out a little too far and got highsided. It was not from a jerk on the front brake either... been there done that..
Probably a set up problem at some point.
QuoteProbably a set up problem at some point.
Any ideas what kind of set up problem? I've done that before as well.
Well, yes, but at this point, I defer to two things... my school. Second, for set up, 4&6 at http://4and6.com.
Sorry, but at some point, guys, I've got to draw a line on this one.
The rear wheel lifts because too much load is being shifted to the front wheel too quickly. ( I prefer Tony Foale's term of load transfer rather than weight transfer - it is more descriptive of what is really happening)
Could try a few things.
Raise the front
lower the rear
raise fork oil level (affects last third of travel, forks will dive less - try 5mm at a time)
increase rear rebound damping (rear will rise slower as load is transfered to the front wheel)
increase compression in the fork (this will slow the rate of fork dive)
Thank you for your input gentlemen. Dave, I'd love to take your school. I think it would do me a world of good. But, I am way over in the Mid-Atlantic region, and I don't think I'll be able to make it out your way.
I understand. It is a long drive.
I do have some guys that will come from the east to do it though. It is pricy just to get here...especially with the cost of gas anymore.
Perhaps I'll get tired of running the same old lap times this year and make an effort to do something about it!
I can never make complete promises on what you'll accomplish, but sometimes it comes to execution; you've got to do it.
And sometimes revelations come in small bits that make a difference. I might have a different way of looking at things than other people. Hopefully, it makes things a bit easier, and, ultimately, cost less money. Experience can be very costly. Believe me, I've spent a lot of money learning a lot of things. Wish I had met some people earlier in my racing career.