How many of you guys always shift clutchless and how many always use the clutch? Why?
Up = No Clutch
Down = Clutch
Saves time and mostly wear and fatigue on your left hand/wrist. Done right, going up, it won't hurt the tranny. Also, cause that's how Eddie Lawson taught me way back when.
Up = No Clutch
Down = Clutch
On the up shift, no clutch is the only way I can do it without over revving and then lurching.
I do not have any technical facts to back this up, but I gotta believe down shifting without the clutch has to hurt something.
Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was referring to upshifting. I know everyone uses the clutch to downshift.
Two more questions though. Do you guys always blip when you down shift? Do any of you guys use a DiGi gear indicator?
One of the "known" pros, I forget which one, doesn't clutch on downshifts either. I've read that he goes through a tranny per weekend...though I doubt that I'm also not going to test it on my bike :)
Yes, always blips on downshift, down one gear at a time. Yes, that uses engine braking...oh well.
No on indicator. Who cares what gear you are in? Well, maybe some do, but after a solid half-day of practice you should know your shift points pretty well. I.E. into Turn 1 downshift twice, upshift once, down once before the Carousel, etc....
I fan the clutch on upshifts. I've used this method before on some street drags and it works well. You don't have to let off of the throttle at all. You just pre-load the shifter and grab a little lever 'til it shifts.
It worked off the grid at Firebird everytime. ;D ;D
Hey sdiver, I think the pro you are refering to is Eric Bostrom. I think his actual quote was "I don't know if I use the clutch on the downshift" Which means, "I do not."
On the blip thing, I generally only blip if going down into second. Going into third and fourth, I get more consistent engine braking without blipping, I do have to shift fast however. When going into second, of course, you have to blip to keep the back behind the front.
Regarding blipping on downshifts: Check out the video of Randy Mamola riding the 2003 R6 at http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcyam/03_R6_VidTeaser/mamola_160_orig.mpg. Note the complete absence of blipping and the fact that the RPM's only drop down to 6k between clutch re-engagement events. As I understand it, this technique is commonly used to control rear wheel traction/steering on corner entries, and is often incorrectly identified as rear brake application.
Can't access the vid, you must have a motorcycle online subscription?
I wonder how much of Randy's style was developed on 2 stroke bikes? In any case, obviously he is wickedly faster than anyone on this board.
Is that style a good one to emulate? Mayeb, maybe not, I'll be interested to see how many others say they don't blip. I would point out that Tiger Woods pulls out a 9 iron from 180 yards, and Michael Jordan would dunk over 7 footers guarding the basket...but I wouldn't recommend you trying that unless you need to lay up or enjoy being rejected ;)
That's a good point, sd. If somebody asked me how they should learn to down shift, I would probably say to blip it, blip it good.
When I was learning how to ride on a track, the instructor said if I was having problems braking and blipping, just skip the blipping and shift fast. I eventually got the hang of blipping, but just felt more comfortable of not blipping in the higher gears, especially when I discovered it helped me be more consistent (aka later) on my braking markers.
BTW: I weight 240lbs., I need all the braking I can get, front, rear, side, whatever!!
Up = No Clutch
Throttle blip on downshift, one gear at a time.
One thing to keep in your pocket, Jason Pridmore uses and talks about High RPM downshifts. No blip, just bang down gears at quicker intervals so the revs stay pretty high. After breaking my wrist this summer I had lots of trouble and pain trying to brake hard and blip the throttle. I started using his technique and it worked really well. It's probably the same as what ceesthadees is doing by shifting fast but I thought I would toss it out for everyone to read.
:)
With the recent allowance for electronic shifters in the AMA Pro Racing rules, I'd have to conclude that few of the pros are using the clutch on upshifts. In fact, this is evident if you watch their hands as they accelerate up a long straight, like Laguna's front straight. I am yet to see/hear any pro roadracers upshift by fanning the clutch lever.
Downshifting techniques, however, seem to be a little less consistent. Without a slipper clutch, banging a clutchless downshift on a four stroke would make controlling rear wheel speed fairly difficult, so disengaging the clutch during downshifts is nearly universal. Blipping beforehand, however, seems to have become passee. The current trend within the pro ranks is to brake, disengage the clutch while holding on some throttle to match the engine speed to the new gear, then smoothly modulate the re-engagement of the clutch so the chassis doesn't become unsettled. Variations of this range from modulating the clutch more aggressively to induce rear wheel sliding/steering, to delaying the clutch re-engagement until the throttle is opened.
While I am certainly not a professional racer (or even an expert one!), I do commute daily on a motorcycle, and riding in adverse conditions such as rain can shed considerable light on one's technique. Over time, I have found that I can downshift more smoothly and control my rear wheel speed more accurately by using the aforementioned 'trendy' method, whereas blipping the throttle, especially while hard on the brakes, can inadvertently impart some pitching moments on the chassis which would be particularly undesirable if the bike is the least bit out of shape.
QuoteI am yet to see/hear any pro roadracers upshift by fanning the clutch lever.
No, you probably haven't. But for whatever reason I would sometimes miss the shifts if I did it without the clutch. The fastest and most assured alternative was fanning.
I have a new oil sponsor this year. Maybe the R6 will shift a little better. ;D
This is interesting to me. I've always seen blipping as the "right" way to do it. Well, it's easier on the bike, anyway.
Either way, is there anything wrong with blipping? I can see personal reasons for not doing so, but I personally like to blip. I mean, of course there can be bucking if it's not done smoothly, but other than that, is there any problems with it?
Bayliss doesn't use the clutch on downshifts either. I guess when you are at that level, engine rebuilds measured in kilometers, what's it matter. I heard Ducati wasn't keen on the idea, but with the results he gets - what are you going to do?
I think the general explanation was something to the effect of... slightly loading the shifter till it disingaged (I.E. false neutral) blip the throttle and finish the downshift.
I wouldn't try it...
Safe trips,
Dave
Maybe I'm confused on the term blipping???
My definition of blipping is ....Brake, pull the clutch, downshift, rev match with the throttle (this in my head is the "blip"), and then feed the clutch.
Yes, A pro can do this whole sequence consistently smoother, faster, and more accurate than I, but I think the technique and intent is the same as what Tim described as the "trendy" method. Obviously pitching movements can be imparted to the chasis if this sequence is not done well...This is why I still adhere to the school of thought that teaches to get all of the downshifting done in a straight line and as early as possible so as not to upset the chasis during the critical parts of the turn.
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone, and keep them coming.
The distinction I was trying to make is that blipping is a rapid open-close throttle sequence, as opposed to just leaving the throttle slightly open to prevent the engine from losing revs too quickly. Perhaps 'matching engine speed' is overstated for this case. Also, blipping and releasing the clutch tends to involve a fairly aggressive cadence, whereas the other method I described tends to be a little more measured and deliberate.
as most of you, i dont use a clutch going up.. i also dont use a clutch going down on a couple turns at Jennings gp (only track ive been on). 20,000 miles on the f4, no probs. There is a fast switch back, turn 4, where im rolling off the throttle having already downshifed once off the fast back section... making a hard downshift the thing slides right in. as a result im able to countersteer much harder to get from turning left to turning right faster. I also like blipping the throttle and just pulling the clutch in ever so little, just enough to disengage, then letting it out. If i get some wheel hop from not revving enough, i can work the clutch a bit to stop that...
im no pro but moving along pretty good at that track.
later...
greg
UP = no clutch
down = no clutch except with multiple shifts i.e. at the end of a straight.
no fanning of the clutch just pull and shift down as many as 4 with no blipping and let go.
Of course this is a 2-stroke. ;D
UP=no clutch
Down=clutch
I also blip the throttle when downshifting. I downshift 1 gear at a time. I suppose I don't really need to do that since I ride a twostroke but it's out of habit and it seems to make things alot smoother for me.
There are those that use the no blip thing for downshifts, others blip. With a slipper clutch, blow off the blip and concentrate on the braking.
As for no clutch down shifts, it can be done. My left hand has had some abuse. In 1993, we were racing a lot at Heartland Park Topeka. There was a carousel left that was follwed by a right. You were throwing the bike around, you needed to go from fourth to third, just a whole lot happening. Eventually, I found that I could downshift without the clutch. You need to blip it to do this, but eventually, that year, I stopped using the clutch altogether except for the start.
The transmissions were always soft on the F2's. Mine lasted about as long as everyone elses that was racing as much as I. I think the thing that we did eventually replace that some didn't was the shift drum. Even then, in 1994, the shift drum was one of the things that received a major upgrade in the new F2.
QuoteEventually, I found that I could downshift without the clutch. You need to blip it to do this,
How are you blipping without the clutch? You don't pass through nuetral on a sequential gearbox so when do you blip?
QuoteHow are you blipping without the clutch? You don't pass through nuetral on a sequential gearbox so when do you blip?
That does not really have anything to do with it. In order to shift up or down, you simply need to have no load on the transmission. When slowing down for the corner and downshifting, there is a 'deceleration load' on the transmission. Blipping the throttle reduces that load and allows you to shift.
It is easier to imagine when accelerating. When accelerating down the straight, if you just try to toe the shifter into the next gear, you can't do it beacuse the transmission is under that 'acceleration load'. If you get of the throtle real quick (un-blip), taking away that 'acceleration load', the shifter will slip easily into the next gear. :)
Quote
That does not really have anything to do with it. How do you figure? Your theory below is flawed.
In order to shift up or down, you simply need to have no load on the transmission.Prefered by most mechanics but not true.
When slowing down for the corner and downshifting, there is a 'deceleration load' on the transmission. Blipping the throttle reduces that load and allows you to shift.Without using the clutch or passing through neutral how are you blipping the throttle with out putting an 'acceleration load' on the tranny?
It is easier to imagine when accelerating. When accelerating down the straight, if you just try to toe the shifter into the next gear, you can't do it beacuse the transmission is under that 'acceleration load'.I know plenty of drag racers that upshift full throttle, no clutch.
If you get of the throtle real quick (un-blip), taking away that 'acceleration load', the shifter will slip easily into the next gear. Again preferred method but not necessary.
QuoteThat does not really have anything to do with it.
How do you figure? Your theory below is flawed.
In order to shift up or down, you simply need to have no load on the transmission.
Prefered by most mechanics but not true.
**True. I guess I meant in order to easily shift.
When slowing down for the corner and downshifting, there is a 'deceleration load' on the transmission. Blipping the throttle reduces that load and allows you to shift.
Without using the clutch or passing through neutral how are you blipping the throttle with out putting an 'acceleration load' on the tranny?
**You are actually just taking away 'deceleration load' to the point where there is no load.
It is easier to imagine when accelerating. When accelerating down the straight, if you just try to toe the shifter into the next gear, you can't do it beacuse the transmission is under that 'acceleration load'.
I know plenty of drag racers that upshift full throttle, no clutch.
**Full Throttle? No clutch? While it is probably possible, I would be willing to bet they are useing an electric or air shifter. An electric shifter works the same way as 'un-blipping the throttle momentarily.
If you get of the throtle real quick (un-blip), taking away that 'acceleration load', the shifter will slip easily into the next gear.
Again preferred method but not necessary.
**True
Some responses are above.
OK...I'm just trying to help. Maybe I don't understand your questions. Maybe we just have different terminology here. It sounds to me like you think that the engine must be able to rev freely (ie: clutch pulled in or in neutral) for it to be a true blip of the throttle. So, are you asking how the engine revs freely when we blip the throttle? If that is what you are asking, it is just different terminology.
BC61, Hitchcock is right. During both acceleration and deceleration there is a tremendous load on the dogs of the transmission gears. Blipping the throttle only helps match the engine rpms with the expected tranmission rpm so the rear tire does not lose traction from engine braking. That is why Dave said with a slipper clutch you do not need to do it.
Although the shift drum in the transmission is designed with enough mechanical advantage to move the transmission drive and driven gears under load, the best way to shift is with no load on the transmission gears. The clutch disengages the input shaft from the crank and allows the gears to move and mesh properly. You can shift both up and down without using the clutch...for a short time. It will catch up with you and something will break if you don't use the clutch. I use the clutch on both upshifts and downshifts on all my racebikes since I started racing in 1997. I never had to replace any transmission parts in one of my racebikes, but I have done plenty in other guys bikes. I have seen FZR's, CBR's, GSXR's etc need shift forks and new gears from abuse and clutchless shifting. I don't think I have gained or lost any positions in any race throughout my career because I did or did not use the clutch. Continued full throttle upshifts (or downshifts) will round the engagement dogs on the transmission gears and cause more false neutrals and a vague, notchy shift within one season of racing. I will guarantee you that. Unless you have the budget to replace transmission parts and you ride at a level that the .005 seconds it might cost you per lap is important, I recommend using the clutch.
You are actually just taking away 'deceleration load' to the point where there is no load.
Doesn't make sense, if you are adding power without engaging the cluch or passing through neutral you are putting a load on the tranny.
Full Throttle? No clutch? While it is probably possible, I would be willing to bet they are useing an electric or air shifter. An electric shifter works the same way as 'un-blipping the throttle momentarily.
I've roadraced many cars with straight cut gears, dog ring trannies, same as a bike tranny, you don't need to release the throttle to up shift. Not the easiest on tranny parts but it is easily done.
It sounds to me like you think that the engine must be able to rev freely (ie: clutch pulled in or in neutral) for it to be a true blip of the throttle.
Yep, without that you are accelerating if you give it throttle.
So, are you asking how the engine revs freely when we blip the throttle?
With out the cluch or neutral, yes.
Bweber, thanks for the comentary. I am fully aware of how a dog ring/straight gear tranny works, used to build them for race cars. I said shifting full throttle is possible but not recommended by mechanics, ie reliability.
CCSracer13's response didn't make sense if he was addressing my original question, blipping without the clutch.
Bill by blipping throttle under decleration you DO momentarily load the tranny with aceraltion the tranny unloads again to decleration so in two points you have no load on tranny so tranny can be easily moved OUT of gear. Now into the next gear I would think there would be some stresses invloved and is why I always use a clutch.
Now on my dirtbike I can load the shifter with just a little pressure and when powerband levels off it unloads tranny and it slips into next gear.
QuoteNow on my dirtbike I can load the shifter with just a little pressure and when powerband levels off it unloads tranny and it slips into next gear.
Thats pretty much how you down shift without the clutch on any bike. Still don't see how you blip the throttle and not upset the bike. Nothing like accelerating while trying to brake as hard as you can. ::)
Blipping on the downshift does seem to be counterproductive when trying to slow down.
As far as full throttle up-shifts with the clutch this sounds like a good way to over-rev/float a valve. Since you are at or near red-line with the motor loaded then you un-load it with the throttle pinned.
Letting off the throttle or using the clutch does essentially the same thing which is un-load the motor, transmission wear would be the same. There is no mechanical advantage to a shift drum, only the shift lever.
QuoteStill don't see how you blip the throttle and not upset the bike. Nothing like accelerating while trying to brake as hard as you can. ::)
I think we are getting closer to understanding each other. I agree whole heartedly with you that it is hard to do it with out upsetting the chasis, as you stated above. No one said it is easy. I certainly don't do it.
How about an example. Let's say that you are in 6th gear and doing 100 mph, off the gas and slowing down. If you give it just a little bit of gas, you don't start accelerating. You have to give it enough gas to overcome the deceleration before you start accelerating again. that split second where you go from deceleration to acceleration is when there is no load on the tranny.
So, in response to your last post,
Doesn't make sense, if you are adding power without engaging the cluch or passing through neutral you are putting a load on the tranny.
I agree. But, a load opposite of the deceleration load of the tranny. Give it just the right amount of gas and they eqaul each other and you have no load. If you go to far and give it more gas than that, you have acceleration again. :)
I think it is obvious that when you upshift under full power, you should roll off the throttle as you engage the clutch as not to rev the engine. With dexterity and practice this becomes second nature and you don't even think about the movements.
I am not telling anyone to leave the throttle pinned, pull the clutch in to the bar, slowly depress the shift petal, and drop the clutch as you roll down the front straight. Lets be reasonable ;).
???Mechanical advantage is found at the shift pedal, at the shift mechanism behind the clutch and on the drum itself. I was wondering what your engineering diploma says. Mine says Bachelor of Science in Engineering from The University of Iowa. Although I did not get to take the class "dynamics and kinesiology of a sportbike transmission", I did read the textbook. ;D
Last year at the Daytona 200, after Kurtis Roberts broke his exhaust and his bike sounded like a 1972 Harley chopper...lol...you could clearly hear him going into turn one with no blips of the throttle. He was downshifting very quickly and keeping the RPM's up. That is probably one of the fastest braking areas in the world, so if it works there, it's gotta work just about anywhere...just my .02.
I don't doubt that. But Curtis Roberts had one of the best slipper clutches made (HRC) and his tranny was most likely completely rebuilt/replaced after the race. He did not need to blip the throttle or worry about longevity of the transmission components.
Quote???Mechanical advantage is found at the shift pedal, at the shift mechanism behind the clutch and on the drum itself. I was wondering what your engineering diploma says. Mine says Bachelor of Science in Engineering from The University of Iowa. Although I did not get to take the class "dynamics and kinesiology of a sportbike transmission", I did read the textbook. ;D
Iowa, I thought there was just Corn in Iowa?
The shift mechanism behind the clutch is the shift drum!
QuoteI think we are getting closer to understanding each other.
From reading your reponse I don't think you truly understand "blipping". The intent of blipping the throttle is to match revs between a lower gear and higher gear to prevent unbalanceing the rear wheel during down shift.
How about an example. Let's say that you are in 6th gear and doing 100 mph, off the gas and slowing down. If you give it just a little bit of gas, you don't start accelerating.
There is about a 4,000 rpm difference in gears. How are you going to match the revs of a lower gear that requires approximately 4,000 more rpm to run the same speed without the clutch?
You have to give it enough gas to overcome the deceleration before you start accelerating again. that split second where you go from deceleration to acceleration is when there is no load on the tranny.
Blipping is not about unloading the tranny to shift. It's about rear wheel control, reason why you don't need to blip with a slipper clutch. The slipper cluch absorbs the shock of not matching engine revs between gears.
Blipping on trailing throttle for the purposes of downshifting can be accomplished without accelerating by virtue of the fact that the drivetrain has lash in it. This means that the lower gear is selected and fully engaged before the drivetrain can fully reverse its load condition and before any drastic changes have been made to the engine speed. Granted, this is not a technique for the hamfisted, and should probably be avoided if one is inclined to attempt to upshift without changing either the throttle or clutch positions.
BTW, bweber, shame about that Orange Bowl, eh?
There is no need to blip the throttle with a slipper clutch.
QuoteI think it is obvious that when you upshift under full power, you should roll off the throttle as you engage the clutch as not to rev the engine. With dexterity and practice this becomes second nature and you don't even think about the movements.
I am not telling anyone to leave the throttle pinned, pull the clutch in to the bar, slowly depress the shift petal, and drop the clutch as you roll down the front straight. Lets be reasonable ;).
Never said full throttle cluchtless shifting was best technique but it is do able and does have it's place.
Hawks at the Orange Bowl, it was nice for the first half, but I knew it would not last. I think someone paid off Brad Banks. It was like watching Ronnie Harmon Fumble the ball in the Rose Bowl in the 80's!
The mechanism behind the clutch I was referring to is the arm that attaches to the shift shaft, that attaches to the shift rod, that attaches to the shift pedal. That arm grabs the drum and rotates it to shift gears. The drum has spiral cut groves to move the shift forks according to the position and rotation of the drum.
I know. You don't need to blip the throttle whith a slipper clutch... That is what I said, twice! This makes three times.
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I know. You don't need to blip the throttle whith a slipper clutch... That is what I said, twice! This makes three timesIt seems others still don't grasp the concept. ::)
QuoteI think we are getting closer to understanding each other.
From reading your reponse I don't think you truly understand "blipping". The intent of blipping the throttle is to match revs between a lower gear and higher gear to prevent unbalanceing the rear wheel during down shift.
How about an example. Let's say that you are in 6th gear and doing 100 mph, off the gas and slowing down. If you give it just a little bit of gas, you don't start accelerating.
There is about a 4,000 rpm difference in gears. How are you going to match the revs of a lower gear that requires approximately 4,000 more rpm to run the same speed without the clutch?
You have to give it enough gas to overcome the deceleration before you start accelerating again. that split second where you go from deceleration to acceleration is when there is no load on the tranny.
Blipping is not about unloading the tranny to shift. It's about rear wheel control, reason why you don't need to blip with a slipper clutch. The slipper cluch absorbs the shock of not matching engine revs between gears.
I agree with you completely that blipping the throttle is intended to match engine speed to wheel speed. That doesn't mean it is the only reason for doing something, does it? I thought you were trying to understand why you blip with no clutch. ONE reason is to unload the tranny. It doesn't mean it is the only one.
I agree with all of your points in your last post, except the 4000 RPM part. My bike does not have gears spaced that far apart and I do not blip my throttle 4000 RPM when downshifting.
Regardless, I think we are both on the same page. I think we are now describing the same thing, just differently.
You are talking about matching the engine speed to the wheel speed. I am talking about matching the the DRIVE gears speed in the tranny to the DRIVEN gears speed in the tranny. (and also unloading the tranny, while we are at it)
So, are we describing the same thing but still not answering your question?
QuoteI know. You don't need to blip the throttle whith a slipper clutch... That is what I said, twice! This makes three times
It seems others still don't grasp the concept. ::)
See, you understand Brian. I was IMing Brian about this. Brian and I understand each other. You and I just can't seem to understand each other. :)
QuoteThe mechanism behind the clutch I was referring to is the arm that attaches to the shift shaft, that attaches to the shift rod, that attaches to the shift pedal. That arm grabs the drum and rotates it to shift gears. The drum has spiral cut groves to move the shift forks according to the position and rotation of the drum.
.
The arm is the shift shaft. The arm also provides the shiftshaft with mechanical advantage. :P
Just one question...
My Ducati 996 has an Evo Slipper Clutch. Should I blip the throttle on downshifts? ;D ;D ;D
I want sdiver's budget. His clutch costs more than my trailer!
Quote
You are talking about matching the engine speed to the wheel speed.That's the purpose of blipping the throttle during down shifting.
I am talking about matching the the DRIVE gears speed in the tranny to the DRIVEN gears speed in the tranny. (and also unloading the tranny, while we are at it) They are the same speed for the same gear. Only variance you will get is the lash between the gears, not a change in speed. This will change the load but won't help you control the engine speed at all when you go to a lower gear.
So, are we describing the same thing but still not answering your question?Not really, you are describing a change in load between drive/driven gears enabling you to down shift. Not really necessary to down shift, as the motor decelerates below it's power band it's pretty easy to click a lower gear without any throttle change.
Maintaining control of rear wheel during down shifts requires managing engine speed between different gears. There has to be some disengagement between the rear wheel and the engine to blip the throttle. This disengagement comes from using the clutch or passing through neutral which doesn't happen on a sequential gearbox.
I've been teaching at racing schools for ten years and blipping the throttle has always meant matching engine speed to wheel speed. Maybe some just have a different concept of blipping.
All I was asking originaly was how do you blip the throttle without the clutch?
4 pages of confusing logic.......and you wonder why I fan the clutch??
This "blip'in" post has been beat to death! ;D
QuoteHow are you blipping without the clutch? You don't pass through nuetral on a sequential gearbox so when do you blip?
Like Hitchthingie said, you just kind of unloaded it with an immediate simultaneous blip/downshift. MC transmissions are not too complicated. It can be done. It was something that I had to work on to learn how to do it, but I can always revert to it. It does work. I was doing this in 1993 on a CBR600F2. I raced nine races a weekend, taught my school, and then traveled to all the AMA national rounds riding 750 and 600 Supersport. The bike was just used a whole lot. Even got endurance raced. The transmissions were just a bit soft on the F2's. I have never had transmission problems on any bike I've raced either. And that includes the priceless vintage bikes that I've been asked to race.
Was it counter productive to blip and not use a clutch? Where I was doing it, no. It was the easiest transition for the problem. The blip allowed for a minor change in load that allowed me to downshift without the clutch. I can't say that everyone can do it, but I'm not so unique that I can do something others can't. That's what I teach.
As for using the clutch on upshifts, the clutch has to slip. Wear on the clutch, clutch material, heat. That never seemed very good to me, and I have yet to have problems related to this.
And all of this just because I said that I can downshift without a clutch...
;D
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And all of this just because I said that I can downshift without a clutch... All I wanted to know is how you blipped the throttle without the clutch but a few others jumped in with theory of thier own.
Your answer pretty much summed up what I was looking for, you don't 'blip' the throttle, as understood buy the general racing public to be matching engine speed to rear wheel speed, but merely change load on the tranny to make a shift. This probably took place mid corner or in transition from one corner to another where slight throttle modulation is all that was needed to make the gear change. I doubt you did this under hard straight line braking with multiple gear changes in a short distance.
I guess people have a difference in the meaning of things.
QuoteI doubt you did this under hard straight line braking with multiple gear changes in a short distance.
You're
assuming I did not.
I did. After about the first race at Heartland Park where I began working on it, I started doing it everywhere.
Like I stated early on in this thread, I only used the clutch at the start, then did clutchless downshifts the whole time during racing, period. Sure, I guess coming into the pits I used the clutch, but that was no problem.
Fair enough, not challanging your method really only wanted to know what you meant by 'blip' the throttle.
Guess it's just a difference in terminology, I always understood a blip as a significant spike in throttle application.
That's exactly what it was.
Even when downshifting and blipping and clutching, everything has to mesh again; there is a little bit of mushiness to the sound when eveything gets together. Without the clutch, it still sounded the same, but a little more crisp. Similar to how a clutchless upshift sounds when compared to a clutched upshift.
Unlike downshifting with the clutch and no blipping where you really hear the rear wheel pull up the rev's of the engine when the clutch is brought out.
QuoteNever said full throttle cluchtless shifting was best technique but it is do able and does have it's place.
Not really, you are describing a change in load between drive/driven gears enabling you to down shift. Not really necessary to down shift, as the motor decelerates below it's power band it's pretty easy to click a lower gear without any throttle change.
Not to rock the boat now that everyone has calmed down, but I feel compelled to express serious doubt about the validity of these statements. Rather than comment on this yesterday when it would have been more timely, I decided to go home and try this on a few different bikes. The results were absolutely consistent: Not a single bike could be shifted either up or down on either steady or trailing throttle. Sure, I could have tried to stomp on the shift lever with more than normal shifting force, but that would have only damaged my shift forks. The only way I could effect a clutchless gear change was by blipping the throttle while applying pressure to the shift lever.
blip: noun - A transient sharp movement up or down (as of a quantity commonly shown on a graph).
BTW, why is the powerband relevant while the bike is decelerating on trailing throttle?
I know that some small bore two stroke MX bikes can do full throttle upshifts. But there is less HP and torque there.
Only thing I can add.
QuoteI fan the clutch on upshifts. I've used this method before on some street drags and it works well. You don't have to let off of the throttle at all. You just pre-load the shifter and grab a little lever 'til it shifts.
It worked off the grid at Firebird everytime. ;D ;D
and if you pre load the shifter you will be re-building you transmission :o so do that boys and girls
Why would a false nutral be created when down shifting? Mech problems lack of concintration?The bike does not slip out of gear on acceleration only coming into the corners sometime. ???
Um, I don't have a technical answer... But you're not under a high HP load when de-accelerating to make the trans dogs really pull themselves together. So, you could just slip it right in between. Then there is that clutch softening everything together.
I never had false neutrals on clutchless down shifts. But I probably won't do that much again on this new bike. Maybe I should....?
Quoteand if you pre load the shifter you will be re-building you transmission :o so do that boys and girls
Maybe you haven't been paying attention:
Pre-loading the shifter IS the way to do it whether you're fanning the clutch or just backing off of the throttle a litttle.
You just take the "play" out of the linkage. As soon as the torque is removed from the transmission, the next gear is engaged.
I can see where you're coming from...
But it is really hard to feel exactly what is play, and what is actually putting a load on the trans. Yes, there is some slop in the shift lever, but if you get it loaded enough that the drum is trying to move the shift fork, you will have heat and wear. Might bend the fork and/or burn it.
If you're loading in enough where you do let off and it shifts, you are loading it.
Hmmm. I find that I subconsciously apply "upshift" pressure to the shift lever for a period of time before I shift. Maybe a second or two here and there. Is that causing wear, heat and other evil things?
Preload the shifter?
If it works for you than good luck, seriously. But it sounds like a recipe for disaster. Most top level racers are quick enough to beat even a high-dollar quick shifter. They have them to worry about one less thing. Clutchless upshifts are the way and how to use the clutch and throttle on downshifts are dependent upon speed, experience and personal preference. Not to mention lots of practice. What works for rider A on a zx-6 may not work for rider B on a 916. Look at either the Performance Bikes or Superbike article on this matter of upshifts and quickshifters from a couple of months ago(I know, kind of vague). Does somebody out there know which mag and month I'm talking about. I knew I shouldn't have thrown those away!
QuoteHmmm. I find that I subconsciously apply "upshift" pressure to the shift lever for a period of time before I shift. Maybe a second or two here and there. Is that causing wear, heat and other evil things?
Yes or no. If you're putting pressure on it, letting off, and it's shifting... you probably have pressure on it that is causing some wear, etc. Now, I'm sure that even when someone lets off and shifts, there is a certain amount of wear and all. But preloading it has to put some stress into it.
Chris... You get to see this stuff. You should know. But lots of those guys are probably the poser "I've got an XYZ Aprilitzida"... So, they might not see redline? Tell me... Or do you see some sloppy shifter guys...
Please....make...topic...go away....
I am having flashbacks! ::)
I thought this thread was dead! Dave is right if you are letting off the throttle and it's shifting then you are grinding away at your shift forks. This loading is trying to move the drum which is pushing the fork against the spinning gear. This wear and possible bending will lead to the fork being unable to push the gear far enough to engage. Clutchless upshifts when rolling off the throttle will not damage your transmission.
My bike is set up for GP shifting. When im not shifting im on the balls of my feet. So i dont think Im preloading it .so theres no wear i new that i was woundering what could cause it on the down shift mech or head problems?
QuoteMy bike is set up for GP shifting. When im not shifting im on the balls of my feet. So i dont think Im preloading it .so theres no wear i new that i was woundering what could cause it on the down shift mech or head problems?
ISTR your problem is false neutrals when down shifting.
Have you tried changing the position of the shifter (try lowering it)? It is possible that when you down shift you are not moving the shifter far enough.
Have you crashed lately? A crash can cause transmission problems, espaecially if the shifter hit the ground.
You know what i went down a Gingerman on that side.and if i remember correctly it started after that.So, now that I know that what could be the problem?
Dru2, what exactly is your bike doing or not doing?
The usual problems from crashing are bent shift forks, bent shift fork shafts, and bent shift shafts. You may have to take it apart and have a look.
Did the shifter hit the ground when you crashed?
Is the shifter in the same location before and after the crash?
Advantage: blip throttle on upshifts = more time on the gas = better acceleration. Put pressure on the shifter, quickly blip the throttle and it will go up a gear. This can be proven easily on a chassis dyno.
Disadvantage: Downshifting without the clutch (blipping the throttle or not) will cause damage to the shifter drum and other transmission components. This leads to lots of transmission rebuilds. i.e. if you don't have lots of time and/or money, use the clutch while down shifting.
It is common to blip the throttle on down shifts while using the clutch and keeping the engine in the proper rpm range so as to keep spikes of engine braking from upsetting the chassis. To give an idea of how effective this is (engine braking) Curtis Roberts reports that he doesn't use the rear brake but uses the engine braking to brake the rear lose on corner entry.
I thought this post was dead...
QuoteIt is common to blip the throttle on down shifts while using the clutch and keeping the engine in the proper rpm range so as to keep spikes of engine braking from upsetting the chassis. To give an idea of how effective this is (engine braking) Curtis Roberts reports that he doesn't use the rear brake but uses the engine braking to brake the rear lose on corner entry.
You're saying two things that aren't related, or you need to really explain.
If you blip the throttle on down shifts, you match the revs between all the components. To break loose the rear tire with engine braking (and the old atage was, "the engine is not a brake") you have to get the rear wheel moving slower than the ground speed...which you're not gonna do if you blip on your downshift. (And Curtis seems to have this way of destroying things now doesn't he...)
QuoteMaybe you haven't been paying attention:
Pre-loading the shifter IS the way to do it whether you're fanning the clutch or just backing off of the throttle a litttle.
You just take the "play" out of the linkage. As soon as the torque is removed from the transmission, the next gear is engaged.
Um er either way there er silly rabbit you will damage your shift forks, The word that sticks out is "Preload" I think your reffering to premature Ejaculation! Lmao! dude get a Clue!
QuoteUm er either way there er silly rabbit you will damage your shift forks, The word that sticks out is "Preload" I think your reffering to premature Ejaculation! Lmao! dude get a Clue!
YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THERE!!
If you don't think that I'm explaining it correctly, then fine. If you don't believe what I'm saying then fine. If you don't want the advise that's great. As I remember it, it was never about you anyway.
BUT DON'T GET CONDECENDING WITH ME.
This is a good board with what seem to be quality people sharing the same interest and ideas. If you don't want to share, then don't. If you don't like what's been shared, then don't read it/use it. If your going to have an attitude, take it to another board.
Besides, at least I can spell my name.
>:(
QuoteYOU DON'T WANT TO GO THERE!!
If you don't think that I'm explaining it correctly, then fine. If you don't believe what I'm saying then fine. If you don't want the advise that's great. As I remember it, it was never about you anyway.
BUT DON'T GET CONDECENDING WITH ME.
Lol I went there! And i'm glad you have a good memory! I can spell my name fine, actually im kinda tired of this thread! Didn't mean to offend you , but in turn don't care too much either ;D So see ya when i see ya!
This is a good board with what seem to be quality people sharing the same interest and ideas. If you don't want to share, then don't. If you don't like what's been shared, then don't read it/use it. If your going to have an attitude, take it to another board.
Besides, at least I can spell my name.
>:(
OK, this one was so funny I had to make a post...
The ultimate experiance in rev matching: I did an Arroyo Seco track day last year while I was between my old Duc 750SS and my new (to me) R6, so I taped up my Moto Guzzi V10 Centauro and took it out. With no possible way of changing gear short of a new pinion and ring gear, I was forced to use first for the bus stop. The procedure went something like this.
1- Close throttle
2- Brake
3- lay off braking to concentrate on shift
4- Pull in clutch
5- Push down shift pedal
6- Keep holding shift pedal down
7- Feel it click through neutral
8- Hold shift pedal down some more
9- Wait until it clunks into first
10- Hold shift peal down another split second
11- Perform long division in head to determine correct RPM for current road speed
12- Attain correct RPM within +/- 50
13- Slowly let out clutch
14- Continue braking
If done properly, the rear wheel should have only hopped three times or so.
The only thing that made this once a lap cycle of fear worth it was driving past 600s out of corners on what my wife calls an "old man bike"...
-Zac
Guzzi...Cool!
Was it more fun than the 750SS? (It isn't an "old man" bike when you're whacking on new stuff...LOL)