Since I know that several CCS and FUSA officials monitor this board, I wanted to open a thread regarding this past weekend.
I'm sure this could become a huge thread, but I feel that it's necessary to convey the racer's thoughts on the problems that currently exist within our organization. This past weekend I was told by several CCS officials that our opinions are important in determining future policies. This being the case, I'd like our points to be constructive.
Some points I'd like to see us discuss are below:
* Registration problems
* Methods of informing riders of any (and ALL) new policies
* Safety concerns
* Licensing issues
Over the course of the weekend, I heard many riders raise valid points and concerns about some of these areas, only to fall on seemingly deaf ears. I'd like us to document them so that CCS can see that we're serious about addressing these issues.
Once again- I would like this to be constructive, so please- no personal beefs with any CCS personnel. If we can provide clear, concise points and concerns, I'm confident that CCS will do their best to address them.
The above being said, I'd like to provide my own suggestions...
First item on the list- Communication to riders of new changes. Below are a couple suggestions of my own:
* Please keep the website up to date! Many of us have relied on it for years to obtain new information. With the Internet becoming the primary means by which every Fortune 500 company distributes new information, why aren't CCS and Clearchannel embracing it more than they are? There don't seem to be very many problems keeping the Arenacross and Monster truck sites up to date, but our website seldom gets updated.
* Either use this particular bulletin board or build one in-house that riders can use to re-distribute new information. Create a special section inside said bulletin board where Kevin & Stacey can post up-to-the-minute changes regarding events, rules, safety concerns, etc. Make it read-only for all other members and it won't get cluttered full of messages from us. After setting it up, make its' existence public knowledge. Many of us already use this board, but far more aren't even aware of it. Post a headline on the CCS website and announce it at the riders meetings.
As a Control Rider with NESBA, I can assure you that the bulletin board on our website (http://www.nesba.com) has become a huge asset to our organization.
* Create a section inside our newsletters that is specific to only rule changes, safety changes, etc., then draw attention to it on the front page of the newsletter.
Second, Policy changes-
* When policy changes occur, particularly in regards to important issues like registration times, practice sessions, gate passes, etc., can we make this public knowledge weeks in advance, then keep these changes standard for ALL tracks? This should eliminate much confusion. I can certainly understand that special situations will occur, but if we're kept informed, nearly all of us should be able to make accomodations around those situations in advance.
I know that the above suggestions may inconvenience a number of the personnel that work for CCS, but in reality, isn't the management of this organization concerned about improving its' QoS (Quality of Service) for us, the racers?? CCS officials are paid assets of the organization and their schedules should be dictated by the customer, not the other way around. This is the foundation of ANY customer-oriented business. I work a full time job, just like most CCS officials, and still have to drive 3-7 hrs for most of the events on our schedule, so it requires just as big a time commitment on my part as the average CCS official.
CCS has experienced significant growth over the past 2 seasons, so don't we want to deal with these issues promptly to ensure that we CONTINUE to see such growth? None of the issues I've raised are new. Each of them has been voiced numerous times- Many of us Experts have been loyally waiting to see the improvement that we've been promised.
Well, hopefully these issues will spark some discussion. I sincerely invite any input from CCS, FUSA and Clearchannel personnel. Please feel free to comment here or off-list to my email address as well.
Mike,
It looks like the topic hasn't taken off like you wished it was. I wonder who many mid-west riders are on this list.
I can offer a couple of suggestions that might help out.
As far as registration goes, the best way to enter is pre-enter. Granted this last weekend sucked and you didn't race because of the weather, but how many times is that going to happen during the year. if you pre-enter it makes things a lot easier when you get to the track, plus you get a better grid position. From what I have heard, is you could even pre-enter for the whole year, and they won't charge you till a month or two before the event (and no, I only pre-entered up to Road America).
Maybe CCS needs to do an email list. We have the one for CCS Mid-America, but if the CCS office had all the emails of all the riders, then they could do a bulk email of the change. That way they could also get feedback on the change. Not everyone has time to hit a forum like this, but most people have time to check email every now and then. And if you don't have email, sorry dude, it is 2002.
Safety concerns is a big deal. It was too cold last weekend to race at Gateway. It was too cold the year before the race at Gateway. Sure it has been cold at Blackhawk before, but there is a lot more room at Blackhawk before you hit a wall. Something needs to be done with that last turn anyway, hopefully before we are down in Gateway at July. Maybe add something to slow you down in that turn, cause on the pit road you are booking at a pretty good clip.
A thread has been started on the WERA BBS called Safty at Gateway, Yes, its about the safty at Gateway. There is none, But it does not suprise me that CCS officials would hold a race at a track with the worst walls durring the coldest time of the year. Gateway has many reasons why it is an unsafe track and configuration, mainly the last turn. I can't beleive that anyone in there right mind would configure a last turn exit onto the banking that points you directly at a wall (this is why WERA will not schedule races at Gatewey). The make shift curb is not even scured (by the way that is why John Woscow crashed and almost died, anyone tells you different is wronge I was 10 yards behind him in that race). I firmly beleive that issues are brought to the attention of CCS and because the turn over rate for riders is so high, riders that have the issues are gone and CCS never really has to do anything about them. The common theme with CCS is "we took a pole" or "its time for a change" thats a joke. I would like to see any CCS official race at Gateway and go though the last turn at race pace and tell the racers that it is safe in any shape or form. The bottom line is safty, Racers have to look out for there best interests. We pay the bills, with out us there would be no races!
Ps. check out the WERA BBS thread (safty at Gateway) some St. Louis locals give some good insite into the track.
Brian Baker
Connect the apron of the oval track to the pit road (the motorcycle race track) farther back from the temporary chicane. This would allow you to enter the banking allmost parallel. I don't think speed is much of a factor in that corner, it's more the rough transition to the banking if you hit it to straight on. This change wouldn't affect the oval track at all and shouldn't be to expensive. Not compared to boycotting the track. What do you think?
I posted this on the wera bbs
How long do you think it will take before someone from CCS joins this discussion? It been over a week now.
Brian ???
I'm sure every one that was at Gateway knew of all the riders that were injured. For those who were not there, several riders were injured badly comming out of the last turn on to the banking where the hit the wall. Although there was a air fence and hay-bails, cement walls and motorcycles dont mix.
One of our riders, James Monson, fractured his pelvis in 2 places and broke two lower vertibra in his back. Jim had surgery last week and can wiggke all his fingers and toes. Jims doing well, but has a long recovery ahead of him.
I'm sure we all agree that something needs to be done. I spoke with atleast 20 guys at Gateway and no one felt comfortable racing there. Lets face it 99% of us are out there racing for fun. We all know the ricks involved with racing. When the risk/reward ratio becomes out of wack thats when something must be done.
I'm sure the folks at CCS are looking into the Gateway problem. I too would like for them to join this thread and talk about what they are doing. I've met many of the CCS officials and they are good people who want to do the right thing.
Looking forward to hearing from them.
Jonathan Wuytack
Big Show Racing Chicago
this is in response to the suggestions made...we are listening and have made several modifications as a result of the postings through this board. we will continue to monitor this site and have recently linked it directly from both of our road racing sites through our fan forum, as well as created a rotating banner that penetrates all clear channel motor sports properties. as far as the web site is concerned, we recently have made changes to the web manager and it is now currently completely up to date and will only get better.
as always, i encourage the communication from you, because we know that you are the reason we are here.
thank you for your support and i look forward to hearing the constructive criticism.
sincerely -
mike murphy
I have read what you have said. Until last race, we have had fewer accidents and injuries at Gateway than at either Blackhawk or Road America. In the 24 years I have been doing this, Gateway last year (I believe it was Septembers race) was the only race I had ever been to where we did not roll an ambulance once. (Except for the security guard with a Bronchitis attack at the front gate.) The most serious injury from March's Gateway event was caused by another bike hitting a downed rider, not the wall. (Cornerworkers confirmed that.) The second serious injury (2 broken legs) was caused by riders going 4 wide into a turn that can only handle 2 wide. The report on James Monson is conflicting, but the cornerworker closest to the corner stated James crashed in the chicane and slid up the track into the airfence, ripping two 4-foot long gashes in the airfence and deflating it. It was the workers opinion that the airfence did it's job before deflating. It is good to hear that James is on the road to recovery, thanks for the update Jonathan.
As for WERA not going to Gateway, they went there in 2000, then got upset because they didn't get a date there in 2001 (If you read the WERA BBS, you would have see the reference to "Sybil" getting all the Gateway dates and that the track "snubbed" their long time supporter.) I have no clue what/why they are doing for 2002.
Yes, there will be changes in July. We will reinstate the 1 lap penalty for running over the chicane. We are looking at one proposal to move the chicane down to turn one, but we were also told WERA tried it there with less than acceptable results. We will examine any realistic solution that is presented to us.
Maybe it was the airfence that made people think they were invincible, maybe it was the cobwebs from not having raced since October, I am not sure why so many people chose to ride that way. Last years opener with just as many riders, colder conditions, did not produce the injuries we saw this year. (Our records show 0 transports and only 6 ambulance treatments.)
I will address Mr. Baker and Mr. Benders comments at a later time. What is important right now is to figure out what made things different and if possible, fix those things.
"Nuff Said.
1. Is CCS using the number of ambulance call to
judge if the weekend was good? 15 crashes in
turn 3 alone in that 2 day weekend, no one
needed help so its ok?
2. One lap penalty for running over the chicane, this
solves nothing.
3. Racers riding over there head the first weekend?
From actually talking to the riders, its more like
the schedule. lets schedule the track with the
most walls for the first race of the year durring
the coldest part of the season.
Kevin, Gateway is an unsafe track any way you look at it. I don't think CCS or any road racing org. should even schedule a race there, but you will always find racers that will think the benefits out weigh the risks (I need the points its a double this weekend). I think there are more racer that unhappy that some people think. Remember CCS is a customer based biz and cust. will be unhappy if the people running the show are riding the fence on most of the issue. I bet if no one showed up to race at Gateway, that race weekend would be moved to another track.
Brian
Kevin thanks for taking some time out of your busy schedule to address some of the concerns expressed by the racers. Although I was not at Gateway this past weekend I have raced there previously. You reference that more injuries occur at other tracks than at Gateway. Are these total injuries? What is the injury ratio to race participants? Obviously I would expect RA to have a higher number of total injuries based on entry levels alone. What are they on a percentage basis? Also and more importantly how severe are the respective injuries at each track? Do you deem crashes and injuries to be the same? As far as reinstating the 1 lap penalty for those who ride over the chicane, this rule was in place for the 2000 races but to my knowledge it was never in forced nor did it seem to make any difference. This is from my own personal experience. In fact it was a joke, as nothing was done when a racer would go thru the chicane. In addition, how in the world does it become unsecured from the track. I think the bottom line is that walls are not safe and there are plenty of other tracks that we can race on that do not have walls. I have to wonder in lue of the fact that it takes several years of rider disconsent and back to back AMA rider boycotts to get Louden off the schedule but the following year FUSA picks it up as a national. ::)
It just seems that sometimes CCS is more concerned with how the race numbers look on bikes (I have been denied passing tech on three seperate occasions soley based on what my numbers looked like or how they were positioned) than actual safety concerns.
Garth Cloyd
Quote15 crashes in
turn 3 alone in that 2 day weekend, no one
needed help so its ok?
I am not trying to go against the grain here, but what does T3 have to do w/ the chicane/wall? T3 is a 3rd gear corner w/ no obstacles to hit...IMHO, it's as safe as any other(not that I want to crash there, or anywhere).
The big dangers at gateway are the walls, and I am glad CCS & JU put up airfences.
Before everyone starts tearing CCS a new ass for racing there, here is what I know. I asked WERA why they were no longer racing at Gateway last spring on the WERA BBS., WERA responded that they wanted to race at Gateway in 2001, but the Gateway people never responded to their correspondence.
WERA would be there if they could, and I wish they would be there so us broke locals could race more than 3-4 times a year.
I hope the walls are addressed even more (which I believe they will), and I also hope that CCS doesn't stop racing there. I think they are doing a good job w/ Gateway considering what they have to work with.
IMHO
We look at number of entries, number of riders, injuries, their severity, the actual cause of the injury (track, another rider, wall or some other immovable object like guard rails etc...), the number of bikes involved, the number of crashes (handlebar meeting the asphalt) and Gateway, like Loudon (you want to talk percentages-Loudon is the best for number of entries-number of riders versus injuries), has a better safety record than Blackhawk, Road America and Road Atlanta. Does it mean it is totally safe? No it doesn't, but at this point it shows that either the riders are riding smarter there or the track is not as bad as you paint it. I don't like walls anymore than you do, but I do know that there are not a lot of dates at all these other tracks that are around. (Road America doesn't have an open date during any month that you'd want to be there, MAM is full, Blackhawk is full, Gingerman actually had to ask us to give up one date this year to accomodate a long time customer that got shut out becasue of a date change for the SCCA National. Mid-Ohio has weekdays available, how many guys want to race on Wednesay and Thursday. Heartland has a couple of dates, but you all complain about the facility there to, so it's a no win situation.
Racing is dangerous, you know it, we know it, I know it. The final decision comes from the rider on whether he races somewhere, not the sanctioning body, all we can do is make sure the facility meet our standards, which Gateway does.
QuoteRacing is dangerous, you know it, we know it, I know it. The final decision comes from the rider on whether he races somewhere, not the sanctioning body, all we can do is make sure the facility meet our standards, which Gateway does.
Kevin,
For all of our benefit, would you mind elaborating a bit on the criteria that a facility must meet? I'm actually very curious how this process works.
Mike Bender
CCS EX#216
The Supreme Court stated basically that something being safe does not make it risk free.
I have raced the Streets of Steamboat, Park City Utah, and the Pomona Fair Grounds at the AMA National.
Indeed, Gateway has some places that are not "the best", but that is where the rider must take some responsibility in deciding where to "push it" or be patient.
There was a post where someone suggested that Gateway be ran backwards. It might be a thought. Has anyone else thought about this?
Super Dave
www.team-visionsports.com
Run Gateway backwards? Are you nuts? Can you imagine using the pit-in road for turn 1, with or without the chicane?
Move the chicane so the transition onto the front straight avoids that big bump. Fasten down the chicane with mechanical fasteners. SCREW it down to the track. There are fasteners that are permanently installed flush with the surface. The most common complaint I've heard with the chicane is that it moves. The rider comes through there expecting it to be in one spot and another rider has hit it and moved it. They hit it and fall. The one lap penalty is hard to assess and wouldn't be fair to the guy who hit it because somebody else moved it. Tie it down!
I was the one who suggested it could be run backwards. Did I also mention I prefer rights? :)
But seriously, running it backwards you run the banking and therefore take the whole pit road problem out of the equation. Well, then why not run the banking going the other way? Well, they did once, but deemed Turn 1 speeds too high with a whole banked curve and front straight.
So its not a perfect solution, none are! If you fix the Chicane/bump problem (which BTW would help if you ran it backwards and retained the pit road)running current direction, you are still left with turn 4 being slippery and heading right for a wall. Not to mention Turn 7 aimed at a wall as well. Backwards, no walls there. The only wall left, running backwards, is turn 1 onto the front straight.
I'm still not saying I'm totally wrong, but I don't think it is crazy to at least consider it???
WERA ran the first sanctioned road raceing for motorcycles at Gateway and used the banking on the north end, which is the way the track was originally designed. The problem wasn't Turn 1 speed, it was the banking. The guys were flying through there. The fast guys were dragging a knee all through the corner. Because of the banking their bikes were literally horizontal to the ground. The problem, again, was the wall. A couple of guys touched something hard on their bikes and they went straight up into the wall. One is still a quadraplegic.
They tried another configuration that made turn 1 into a hairpin. Nobody liked that one. Ed Bargy came up with the current track layout. There are still walls but they are in slower corners, not where racers are trying to get a drive for the front straight.
Any idea is worth checking out but IMHO running that track backwards would be a bad idea.
I still say either remove the chicane or fix it.
I would have to look at the track backwards, but potentially you could slow down turn one (counting the current way) with a chicane going onto the front straight on the oval. If you crash going into one now, you hit the wall. I know this.
If you crashed going into the last corner going backwards, there is nothing to hit.
The space available coming out of one is very wide. The chicane could be in turn one rather that entering the oval.
Again, I do not know what the other corners would look like while racing, but it might be worth looking at.