Attention all super twin racers, do you know that the point that you earn do not count towards the regional overall. If you feel like I do and think that this is unfair, you need to write to CCS so we can try to change this ruling. Why should we be penalized for riding a super twin? Do we not put forth the same effort as some one that rides an inline 4? I think that if the points are not going to count then, we should have either better trophies, money paid out, or our own specialized events like ASRA or the USGPRU. Yes, I am aware of the MOTO-ST but that is for small V-twins not super twins, nor is it CCS based. So what do you think?
I think everything should count.. There's other ones that don't too, like thunderbike and ULWSB, right?
Call me weird, but I'd suggest that only points in the standard classes that are represented across all displacement levels, i.e. SS, SB, GP, and GT should count. I also think that only points earned in your "native" displacement class should count towards the overall championship.
This would put the different displacement classes on more equal footing vs having the overall points champ being a 600 class rider every year. Would also put more people in the hunt, and would reduce the need for bottomless pockets to go after the overall.
QuoteCall me weird, but I'd suggest that only points in the standard classes that are represented across all displacement levels, i.e. SS, SB, GP, and GT should count. I also think that only points earned in your "native" displacement class should count towards the overall championship.
This would put the different displacement classes on more equal footing vs having the overall points champ being a 600 class rider every year. Would also put more people in the hunt, and would reduce the need for bottomless pockets to go after the overall.
only, 600 is the most competetive class.
Yeah, I know that's a major flaw in my suggestion that would give guys in the other classes an advantage.
But... If you could chase the championship at any displacment level, maybe we'd see the numbers even out some, and 600 riders not being the vast majority?
Alternatively, maybe you could use each rider's top 3 or 4 class point totals?
Yes, I know it sucks and knew that going into it last year. Had my championship winning points counted I would've finished in the top 10 in my region overall, running a total of 4 classes but not every round of one of those classes.
I think any four classes, your best four if you do more than that, should be what makes up the overall championship. Every bike has a SS, SB, GP and GT class it can run.
I think you are going to see a big change in how the Overall Championship Battle for this year plays out...
The Points structure for this year dosen't favor the rider who just enters 100 Races a weekend all year, just to get points...You also must place well...
Which ruins my chances for the #1 Plate :P ;D
I raced Super Twins and Formula 40, neither counted towards overall points. I think every race run in every CCS event should count for overall CCS points.
Have asked this question before, have not heard a good reason why as of yet.
QuoteI raced Super Twins and Formula 40, neither counted towards overall points. I think every race run in every CCS event should count for overall CCS points.
Have asked this question before, have not heard a good reason why as of yet.
I'm 44 and intend to campaign LW F40 (just to dispel any bias) and I can understand why the F40 points don't count toward the overall. A large percentage of the racers in attendance any weekend are not eligible, and can do NOTHING to become eligible to compete in this class. On other hand I am confused by the exclusion of some of the other classes that are open to anyone.
Honestly, if I won every F40 race I was in, and it was a contributing factor to winning a No. 1 plate, I'd be embarrassed to display it.
Are we really trying to claim that we're one of the top 10 riders, when we run bikes and/or classes that aren't in sync with what's happening at an AMA level, the WSB level, or the GP level?
There's support classes, then there's the "main event(s)". The guy on the 600, or liter bike, that's dicing it up with other riders in that class, pushing track records... isn't that where the top 10 is being decided?
I don't race for a plate, I race for fun. I'm not sure what all of us in the 40+ class, the LW classes really think we're out here for? Money? Fame?
Isn't this just a hobby for most of us?
Just my .02
First off... WHY even have a top10 overall? WTF does it mean?... "I have a lot of money and I entered the most races" ?... b/c that's what it seems to be and how you get there right?.. it's a #s game... (yes, I'm sure there are exceptions where top10 riders didn't enter 5+ races each weekend and went to every weekend, and instead were REALLY good, placed top 5 in every 3-4 races they entered, but that's probably the case for only two out of the top10 riders)
I'd rather be a class champion in 2-3 classes in my region, then be a mid/upper-packer in 5-6 classes and be placed in the top-10 overall for my region.
I like restricting the classes that count towards the overall, b/c the above is exactly what it helps prevent... entering a sh1tload of races just to collect points to say you're a top10 in the region. That makes it pretty hollow.
I think the reasoning behind not allowing points in some classes is because the machinery or rider is exclusive to that class.
For ex: Supertwins excludes all 4 cyl machines, F40 and LW F40 excludes all riders under 40 years of age, allowing them to run in additional classes.
If you look at the rule book, Supersport, Superbike, All GT classes and GP, are mostly inclusive, rather than exclusive in regards to make and model of bikes. Yes there are some exceptions when it come to the GP style bikes or grey market bikes, but the rules will allow anywhere from a single cyl on up. It's clear that each class creates some parity.
Unfortunately, this is a club level sport, which means that it cannot be everything for everyone.
The whole concept of the overall championship is bunk anyway. That's why you don't see it in AMA or MotoGP. Everybody knows what the feature class is, and who the top dog is.
QuoteUnfortunately, this is a club level sport, which means that it cannot be everything for everyone.
I think that sums it up right there!
Call me weird, but I'd like to see the #1 plate go to the guy with the highest performance index. Or just have one deciding race...you win the race, you win the plate. I dont know...i see guys finish mid-pack but then place a top 10 overall. Thats not right...the plate should go to the fastest guy
QuoteI think the reasoning behind not allowing points in some classes is because the machinery or rider is exclusive to that class.
THANK YOU.
The points don't count because it's an exclusive class. If you have an SV, You can already run all the supersport and superbike classes, all GP, all endurance classes, and if you add supertwins and thunderbike you could collect points in pretty much every race.
QuoteCall me weird, but I'd like to see the #1 plate go to the guy with the highest performance index. Or just have one deciding race...you win the race, you win the plate. I dont know...i see guys finish mid-pack but then place a top 10 overall. Thats not right...the plate should go to the fastest guy
This year plate assignments will be points times performance index which is perfect. Based on that system Feuerstahler would have the MW #1 plate this year, which no offense to jonny moore, would be fitting.
Question; Do points obtained as an Am. in SuperTwins count towards acquiring an Expert license?
Yes, I was bumped to Ex, and 75% of my points come from supertwins.
The reason some classes don't count towards the overall is because they have very small grids. Most supertwins, ULW classes and F40 have less than 5 riders. It's not fair to a MW rider who has to race against 30 or more people.
Hell, just drop the overall points championship thingy... what exactly does it mean anyways?... just that these are the guys who collected the most points.
Like old808 said.. motogp, ama, wsbk.. sh1t, not even old FUSA, new ASRA has it.. so why does the regional series have it?
QuoteHell, just drop the overall points championship thingy... what exactly does it mean anyways?... just that these are the guys who collected the most points.
Like old808 said.. motogp, ama, wsbk.. sh1t, not even old FUSA, new ASRA has it.. so why does the regional series have it?
Because we all have low self esteems and we need something to look forward to when we get all old an crotchety... :P ;D
Uh, guys? CCS is a business. The points rules are written to insure that anyone chasiing a championship or #1 plate will be required to make all the race dates and enter lots of races. All this carping about the policy is unrealistic.
Let's say some really great rider comes along, and wins all four of his middleweight classes for all five of the weekends he shows up. Well, that makes him undefeated, and probably the best rider in the region. It does not automatically make him champion of any class, or the #1 plate holder. Undoubtedly, people would then carp about whoever DID win the championships and #1 plate, saying they weren't worthy.
CCS sets up the series to reward regular participation. This makes good business sense for CCS, and gives racers something to shoot for. The racers who chase championships are the meat and potatoes of CCS. Without them, there might not be a CCS. This is the hard, financial reality of what it takes for an organisation to put on a series where we can all play at our own financial ability.
Just read through the new point and championship system for 06 (points X PI), and I do think that will improve things.
I guess we should wait and see how the latest changes pan out before we start begging for new ones.
MAKE ONE CLASS COUNT FOR THE FRICKING PLATE >:(
THAT CLASS SHOULD BE UNLIMITED GP BECAUSE YOU QUALIFY AND EVERYBODY, ALMOST EVERBODY, RUNS IT WITH JUST ABOUT ANYTHING, IF YOUR CONSISTANT ON AN SV OR A 250 OR RC51 OR 600 OR EVEN A YAMAHA ZUMA YOULL HAVE 1 THRU 10 #!! THE WHOLE BUSSINESS ASPECT OF IT, WELL THEN MAKE IT WORTH RACING THE OTHER CLASSES WITH AN OVERALL CHAMPIONSHIP AND SOME DAMN INCENTIVE TO FOLLOW UP WITH.
THANK YOU ALL IAM JEREMY BENTZ AND THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT ;D
QuoteYes, I was bumped to Ex, and 75% of my points come from supertwins.
But they wouldnt count my thunderbike points in for advancement to expert even though the rulebook stated 500 points in a 12 month period. Nothing about "selected classes" for going to expert.
Hmm, maybe that WAS another case of how it used to be, I hope, and the new management will be an improvement. I guess I'll send off a letter.
All the other arguments aside, it seems pretty odd that points earned in a class (supertwins) don't count for other applications. In one case stated here they DID count for Am to Ex advancement and in another they did NOT?
QuoteBut they wouldnt count my thunderbike points in for advancement to expert even though the rulebook stated 500 points in a 12 month period. Nothing about "selected classes" for going to expert.
I believe they counted for me.
The advancement list is done by overall points. The limited number of people that run some of the "sportsman classes" 125,Thunderbike, F40, F40l can result in someone being over 750 points(previous requirement) without having the skill level that is normally associated with someone acheiving that many points. If you are not on the automatic generatored bump list then you can petition for advancment and those results are looked at on a case by case basis. The only time those results hit the automatic bump list is by winning one of those championships.
I am not a sandbagger!
Back to the original intent of this post...
There are inconsistencies regarding which classes CCS determines to count toward overall points, and those that count towards advancement from AM to EX.
So, SuperTwins, Thunderbike, 125GP and both F40 classes don't count toward either the overall championship or AM/EX? Why?
If the reason given on overall points is the exclusionary nature of the class for equipment or rider, then I can mabye buy 125GP and F40. But why Thunderbike? It actually includes more eligible equipment than Lightweight SuperSport or Superbike. So does SuperTwins. Not only is every SV650 and Buell eligible (if not competitive), but all the big liquid-cooled twins as well (Ducks, TLs, RC51s.).
As far as the argument about smaller grids, this is also inconsistent. Check average results from a Thunderbike race vs. Lightweight SuperSport. Thunderbike will have a bigger grid every time.
Also, why then does Ultra Light Superbike count towards both overall points and AM/EX upgrade? This is the former Middleweight Sportsman class and these days has a very slim field. I suspect the average SuperTwins field is larger than ULSB. It certainly was at the Daytona ROC.
Seems like it's time for a re-think.
Good points, Paul.
Twins classes. Yeah, twins...exclusive.
Thunderbike? I'll agree on a new look at that.
But this is all stuff for 2007. Not our fault though for not bringing it up earlier.
QuoteI am not a sandbagger!
Yes you are. ;D
Over the last 6 seasons, we (CCS) had been under tremendous pressure to change the way the Top Ten Numbers were awarded on a regional level.
First issue to be tackled was the "unfairness" of being able to run 20 classes with a Lightweight SuperSport bike (i.e. the SV 650 that hit the scene in 1999) and win the title going away. It happened and everyone complained because the one bike was also legal for the "Sportsman" classes that normal machinery didn't fit into. So in 2002, we excluded those Sportsman and Formula 40 classes that kept out mainstream motorcycles and riders.
That was all good until the end of the 2002 when the rules committee was bombarded by people who pointed out that if Formula 40 was unfair to include because of the restrictive age requirement, then SuperTwins wasn't fair to leave in the mix for the same reason...it had become a 6-8 bike field that was "easy" compared tom the 30-40 bike fields the other machines had to face. The rules committee listened and so we were down to the classes where a whole range of engine designs compete under the same basic rules, with twins being given a displacement advantage over their 4-cylinder cousins. It wasn't that SuperTwins were any less worthy of racing; it was the exclusivity of the "club" that got the masses to request the change, the same basis that made it harder to win the title with just an SV650.
From 2003 to 2005 the application of the Top Ten and Top Amateur Awards have been based on SuperSport, SuperBike, Grand Prix and GT classes total points, classes divided mainly by displacement not engine design or rider age.
These changes were suggested to the rules committee, voted in by the rules committee and have openly been instituted for the last 3 full seasons.
For 2006, after much discussion, the rules committee voted to institute the formula of multiplying your points by your performance index and dividing by 1000 (just to bring it back to 5-6 digits). This gives the benefit to those riders who compete against larger fields, since third in a race with forty bikes pays a higher perfromance index than third in a field of 6 riders.
It is the opinion of the Rules Committee that this formula will restore the prestige of earning a CCS Top Ten Number because the rider now has to race often and race well to earn a position in this group.
Now as far as the ASRA classes, it's because we award a national number 1 in EACH class that we don't add up your point totals to assign the number 1 plate.
QuoteIt is the opinion of the Rules Committee that this formula will restore the prestige of earning a CCS Top Ten Number because the rider now has to race often and race well to earn a position in this group.
+1
It's a great change, Kevin. Thanks!
Thanks for the background, Kevin. I understand the logic and intent now.
I guess I still don't understand the "exclusive" rationale per SuperTwins.
SuperTwins can be run by SV650/1000, SuperHawks, TLs, RCs, and so on. Twins make up a minority of the paddock, where the majority is 4 cylinder 600s. I don't see the logic of excluding the SuperTwins class from acquiring overall or [AM to EX] points because I-4s are not allowed, in ONE class. There are lots of classes that exclude the twins, but allow only I-4 600-750s.
QuoteI guess I still don't understand the "exclusive" rationale per SuperTwins.
SuperTwins can be run by SV650/1000, SuperHawks, TLs, RCs, and so on. Twins make up a minority of the paddock, where the majority is 4 cylinder 600s. I don't see the logic of excluding the SuperTwins class from acquiring overall or [AM to EX] points because I-4s are not allowed, in ONE class. There are lots of classes that exclude the twins, but allow only I-4 600-750s.
what classes exclude twins?
I have never excluded a pair of twins!!! ;D
Supersingles maybe? Oh wait, they exclude 4-cyls as well... ;)
Quotewhat classes exclude twins?
QuoteI have never excluded a pair of twins!!! ;D
Supersingles maybe? Oh wait, they exclude 4-cyls as well... ;)
;D ;D Double yer pleasure! ;D ;D
Offhand, I can't tell you exactly which classes exclude the twin I run, an RC51-everything LW, MW, etc, etc.. On the flip side of the coin I could run a 600 in lots more classes. Am I wrong?
The only TRULY exclusive class is F40 by it's age requirement, but why that is excluded from points is beyond me as well. If you have a bike(s) to race and can do so in a manner according to the rulebook, why not let em compete in the points chase as well?
Are those of us running SuperTwins, F40, etc., paying less money in fees? No.
I can see where the new points structure can potentially remove the idea of buying a Championship. Awesome. It's a great new format that will create more competition w/o going towards spec. tire crap. However, why not let those of us who are out there racing SuperTwins/F40/Thunderbike/etc, race as competitors rather than ATM machines... ;)
Quote
;D ;D Double yer pleasure! ;D ;D
Offhand, I can't tell you exactly which classes exclude the twin I run, an RC51-everything LW, MW, etc, etc.. On the flip side of the coin I could run a 600 in lots more classes. Am I wrong?
The only TRULY exclusive class is F40 by it's age requirement, but why that is excluded from points is beyond me as well. If you have a bike(s) to race and can do so in a manner according to the rulebook, why not let em compete in the points chase as well?
Are those of us running SuperTwins, F40, etc., paying less money in fees? No.
I can see where the new points structure can potentially remove the idea of buying a Championship. Awesome. It's a great new format that will create more competition w/o going towards spec. tire crap. However, why not let those of us who are out there racing SuperTwins/F40/Thunderbike/etc, race as competitors rather than ATM machines... ;)
an RC51 is not a LW legal bike.
each weight class has provisions for both twin and multi cylinder bikes. Supertwins excludes anything that is not a twin. there is no MWSSILF(in line four) class.
Quotean RC51 is not a LW legal bike.
each weight class has provisions for both twin and multi cylinder bikes. Supertwins excludes anything that is not a twin. there is no MWSSILF(in line four) class.
That's right. So, by that same reasoning you are utilizing, LW is an exclusive class. As is MWSB, as far as my twin is concerned, where liquid I-4s up to 660cc are allowed.
MWSS-4 cylinder liquid cooled up to 640cc. No, there
is no MWSSI4 specific class. But the largest liquid cooled twin run here in MWSS is an 800cc bike, excluding the liquid cooled twins in SV/RC/TL/SuprChix arena. ( These points are a side argument in themselves.)
Same licenses, same $$$, should bring the same results but they do not as far as Championship points and [Am--Ex] are concerned. Bizzare...Maybe I'm crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyyy! :D
Quote That's right. So, by that same reasoning you are utilizing, LW is an exclusive class. As is MWSB, as far as my twin is concerned, where liquid I-4s up to 660cc are allowed.
MWSS-4 cylinder liquid cooled up to 640cc. No, there
is no MWSSI4 specific class. But the largest liquid cooled twin run here in MWSS is an 800cc bike, excluding the liquid cooled twins in SV/RC/TL/SuprChix arena. ( These points are a side argument in themselves.)
Same licenses, same $$$, should bring the same results but they do not as far as Championship points and [Am--Ex] are concerned. Bizzare...Maybe I'm crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyyy! :D
i dont understand your argument.
twins are not excluded from any class whatsoever. I4's are excluded from Supertwins. are you saying you dont like the weight class breakdown?
i think you're crazy............. ;D
Quote That's right. So, by that same reasoning you are utilizing, LW is an exclusive class. As is MWSB, as far as my twin is concerned, where liquid I-4s up to 660cc are allowed.
MWSS-4 cylinder liquid cooled up to 640cc. No, there
is no MWSSI4 specific class. But the largest liquid cooled twin run here in MWSS is an 800cc bike,
Are you saying you want to run your 1000cc twin in middleweight??
Your bike is not excluded because it's a twin, it's excluded because it's 1000cc.
I wish they would let me run my gsx-r1000 in lightweight ss too, but I'm not gonna say its unfair that they don't.
I don't see what's so hard to understand. Supertwins is twin-exclusive. It excludes I4 bikes.
Score your points in the other 6 classes you can race in.
QuoteAre you saying you want to run your 1000cc twin in middleweight??
Your bike is not excluded because it's a twin, it's excluded because it's 1000cc.
I wish they would let me run my gsx-r1000 in lightweight ss too, but I'm not gonna say its unfair that they don't.
I don't see what's so hard to understand. Supertwins is twin-exclusive. It excludes I4 bikes.
Score your points in the other 6 classes you can race in.
Where did I say I wanted to run my bike in MW or UL? I'm saying points earned in a race should simply be earned! WsTF problem with understanding English!!
You can run your GSXR 1000 in LW SS, pay the race fee, you won't get any points! Just like those of us racing SuperTwins.
This term "exclusive" is an oxymoron in the terms of this debate. When you look at racing a certain machine, you have to read the Road Race Rules and Regs. Which classes does your machine qualify to race in according to the rules? In those classes you cannot run your machine in, you're machine is excluded.
The Suzuki Cup is exclusive to 750 GSXRs. THAT'S exclusive.
The points structure has changed. One person can hardly cherry pick/buy an OA championship anymore. Why not adjust the other parts of the points system to be more inclusive. The points system, as it is, is what's exclusive here and not the obscure classes.
QuoteYou can run your GSXR 1000 in LW SS, pay the race fee, you won't get any points! Just like those of us racing SuperTwins.
Not the same at all. The big bike would be flat-out disqualified in LW. Legitimate SuperTwins finishers still score class points.
As a result of the type of bike/rider allowed by the rules in the "sportsman" classes, they tend to have smaller grids. Would it be fair to take your RC51 and rack up overall points in SuperTwins and F40, in grids of say, 20 bikes againts people competing in MWSS/SB/GP in grids of 40 who are not eligible to run any sportsman classes? (keeping in mind that you can still run all the HW and UL races to earn more overall points)
The new math for determining regional points would help level the field I guess.
Run the numbers after the season is over with the new system and see how much difference it would make.
Bottom line is, if you want the best shot in the overall championship, you need to run a bike that's competetive in the most "standard" classes. That bike is an I4 600.
Quotegrids of say, 20 bikes againts people competing in MWSS/SB/GP in grids of 40 who are not eligible to run any sportsman classes? (keeping in mind that you can still run all the HW and UL races to earn more overall points)
The new math for determining regional points would help level the field I guess.
Run the numbers after the season is over with the new system and see how much difference it would make.
Bottom line is, if you want the best shot in the overall championship, you need to run a bike that's competetive in the most "standard" classes. That bike is an I4 600.
10-4 on that Ridge, I've been brewin' on a 600 for a while now anyway. What you mention per HW and UL classes is the only option, really, for points that matter. Then, take a look @ those grids; Full of 600s!!? I'm just crazy, I know. ;D
Do you think you'd have a shot at the #1 plate if you switched bikes? (I have no idea what you're race record is...)
If not, stick with what you like to ride and to hell with the overall.
I know I probably won't ever be one of the uber-fast guys, so I hadn't really even considered what points count toward the overall when decided what I wanted to run.
QuoteDo you think you'd have a shot at the #1 plate if you switched bikes? (I have no idea what you're race record is...)
If not, stick with what you like to ride and to hell with the overall.
I know I probably won't ever be one of the uber-fast guys, so I hadn't really even considered what points count toward the overall when decided what I wanted to run.
I think I could be in the top ten, eventually. Eventually I would like to run a few AMA events, but I'm much physically bigger than your average racer @ 6'5". Is it Realistic? I don't care. The bizzare ways that racing has changed other parts of my life for the better, so far, has been worth the time lost in delusional fantasies! :D
An option to look at is the new AMA ST series. I really don't fancy endurance racing at Daytona though, a track that's one of the most unsafe in the country.
What're you gonna run in Ridge'?
LWSS/SB/GP, GTL, and Thunderbike.
Running Road America and all BHF rounds. Results from the first 2 rounds will probably determine if I travel to the other tracks.
Dropped LWGP from my Road America Schedule though. Will get me out of there a few hours earlier on Sunday.
Think I might have a decent shot at some good class-championship standings this year, (or at least the BHF mini-championships). My chance for glory before I have to go EX!
Cool, see you at RA...