Does anyone know why the new Buell race only machine was (I know it is now legal) made illegal?
What specs made it illegal?
Does anyone have a link to the exact rules for the AMA formula Extreme?
Thanks
try this link
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Feb/060210c.htm
Nothing made it illegal.
It's a bike, and it can be modified. Teams have done the things that Buell offered in a turn key package.
If you go find AMA Pro Racing, you should be able to find the RR rules. FX is the most open. And it is more open for air cooled twins.
So why was it considered Illegal at a point in time? Why was that rumor started? What's the deal with that?
who cares!
Maybe its me... but for all those teams concerned (Honda) about the Buell in FX.... they should be more worried about what Disalvo and the new R6 is about to do to them.
Quotewho cares!
I DO!!
It's Winter, I'm bored!!
I'm with Scotty on that one.
Was never illegal. But someone in Honda told Erion to cry about it, as though Honda hasn't produced factory specials in the past...
Was I just hallucinating or was there not articles circling around a month or so ago about how it was illegal?
Was there any proof or hard facts on why people were saying it was illegal?
Or was it just a whole bunch of bull crap?
And why just recently are there articles floating around saying is now legal, saying before it was illegal.
Is this just a political stunt to get people noticing Buell?
(the sound of crickets chirping)
Buell presented the idea and concept to Merrill Vanderslice, Director of Competition for the AMA some time ago. They developed and produced a bike, with the promise of a number that would be available. Given those issues, it pretty much fit the class rules.
There were cries of foul, but, honestly, there isn't a way a bike can be illegal unless it's raced, right? It has not been raced, but Buell and company carefully looked at the rules and the modifications that they and other teams had made within the rules during racing with the AMA, CCS, etc.
There was never a time when it was illegal. But there was so much focus brought to the product, the XBRR, by the original complaining that was started by Erion.
Erion doesn't make the rules.
Air cooled twins have liberal rules in the classes they run in AMA, CCS, etc. I didn't see where it was outside the rules.
Really, Erion helped Buell. And like Scotty said, he should focus on doing what he needs to do to beat DiSalvo or some other teams. Get back in the shop and focus.
QuoteBuell presented the idea and concept to Merrill Vanderslice, Director of Competition for the AMA some time ago. They developed and produced a bike, with the promise of a number that would be available. Given those issues, it pretty much fit the class rules.
There were cries of foul, but, honestly, there isn't a way a bike can be illegal unless it's raced, right? It has not been raced, but Buell and company carefully looked at the rules and the modifications that they and other teams had made within the rules during racing with the AMA, CCS, etc.
There was never a time when it was illegal. But there was so much focus brought to the product, the XBRR, by the original complaining that was started by Erion.
Erion doesn't make the rules.
Air cooled twins have liberal rules in the classes they run in AMA, CCS, etc. I didn't see where it was outside the rules.
Really, Erion helped Buell. And like Scotty said, he should focus on doing what he needs to do to beat DiSalvo or some other teams. Get back in the shop and focus.
techically, the XBRR never started out as a streetbike(Joe Blow can't got to a dealership, purchase a XBRR and drive it home) so it can't be a SuperSport bike, so thusly it does not fit into FX.
at least this is how i see. it.
Supersport is for 600cc inlines. Buell's don't fit there no matter what.
You could build everything to have an XBRR. Teams have already done it. Some teams won't be buying one because they already did modifications, modifications that are allowed under the FX rules, that they essentially have an XBRR.
But it's less expensive for one to purchase a ready to go XBRR rather than to modify an XB12R. Why is that wrong?
You think that when Honda America raced AMA Supersport that they actually used bikes that you could buy? Or did they come from a secret factory? That isn't under supersport rules. Supersport rules are tight, but not necessarily enforced with the private rider in mind. FX rules are liberal. And they are more liberal for air cooled twins.
I heard from a fly on the wall that the bike will still have problems even finishing a normal length race let alone the 200. This is not a guess.
We will see.
This is good stuff! I love it!! :D
you are an assclown
QuoteI heard from a fly on the wall that the bike will still have problems even finishing a normal length race let alone the 200. This is not a guess.
We will see.
BRRrrrrrrrr BRRrrrrrrrr KABOOM! (no more buell to kick around!) ;D
QuoteI heard from a fly on the wall that the bike will still have problems even finishing a normal length race let alone the 200. This is not a guess.
We will see.
Whaaa haaaa haaaa!!!!!!!!!
;D
Quoteyou are an assclown
FREAKIN HILARIOUS!!! :P ;) :D
QuoteSupersport is for 600cc inlines. Buell's don't fit there no matter what.
You could build everything to have an XBRR. Teams have already done it. Some teams won't be buying one because they already did modifications, modifications that are allowed under the FX rules, that they essentially have an XBRR.
But it's less expensive for one to purchase a ready to go XBRR rather than to modify an XB12R. Why is that wrong?
You think that when Honda America raced AMA Supersport that they actually used bikes that you could buy? Or did they come from a secret factory? That isn't under supersport rules. Supersport rules are tight, but not necessarily enforced with the private rider in mind. FX rules are liberal. And they are more liberal for air cooled twins.
:qouted from the AMA rulebook:
AMA Formula Xtreme Series
AMA Formula Xtreme are allowed the largest displacement engines in the AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship and are
based on production four-stroke street motorcycles. The motorcycles in this class must have the following engine displacements:
450cc-600cc multi-cylinder
595cc-750cc liquid-cooled twin-cylinder
850cc-1350cc air-cooled twin-cylinder
:end quote:
you can go out and buy a 600rr then ride it home. you cannot ride a XBRR on the street.
all being said, we know it is a limited production, factory superbike/FX machine that you could buy(if you have the connections). why not build this from a production XB12r? then there would be no grey areas.
what about the fact that all the classes in AMA Pro RoadRacing are for street based motorcycles?
to me, the XBRR is a GP bike, technically. as a matter of fact, this topic is up in the CRA right now.
if you had the $$ anyone could have bought one and road it home.
Quoteif you had the $$ anyone could have bought one and road it home.
Baker! Put down the kid and read his post again....SLOWLY! ;D
Quoteif you had the $$ anyone could have bought one and road it home.
not legally.
QuoteI heard from a fly on the wall that the bike will still have problems even finishing a normal length race let alone the 200. This is not a guess.
We will see.
I heard that too. And I agree.
I think there is the possibility that one could finish inside the top ten. Not going to win. Podium is doubtful, but I like the added flavor.
Tommy,
stop punching your clown and put your pants back on.
The bike is based off the street model, aaaaaaaaaaaa this f-cking sh1t is going in circles. The bike is legal, if you don't like it to bad.
Tommy I am going to put you in a komura next time I see you, assclown. ;D
Quoteare based on The motorcycles in this class must have the following engine displacements:
450cc-600cc multi-cylinder
595cc-750cc liquid-cooled twin-cylinder
850cc-1350cc air-cooled twin-cylinder
:end quote:
you can go out and buy a 600rr then ride it home. you cannot ride a XBRR on the street.
all being said, we know it is a limited production, factory superbike/FX machine that you could buy(if you have the connections). why not build this from a production XB12r? then there would be no grey areas.
what about the fact that all the classes in AMA Pro RoadRacing are for street based motorcycles?
to me, the XBRR is a GP bike, technically. as a matter of fact, this topic is up in the CRA right now.
Oh, yeah, and you could get a CBR600RR like Miguel's Daytona winning bike too to ride on the street.
Same difference. Same goes for their HRC parts in Supersport too, which is a tighter rule class. You're not going to ride it home either.
You're gonna start with something. Who's race bike, other than a GP bike, started life with race glass on it? An XBRR can be built from an XB12R with parts that have been used on other XB12R street bikes to make them more "race appropriate".
A real GP bike is different.
Is a R1 LE a GP bike then? Limited production? Parts are available? You could build one, but you couldn't run it in Superstock or Superbike with an aftermarket slipper clutch according to the rules, I believe.
I don't have a love for Buell's, per se, but there seems to be some deep seated concern for something that just simply fits the rules.
QuoteAMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship and are based on production four-stroke street motorcycles. The motorcycles in this class must have the following engine displacements:
isnt the XBRR based off of a production motorcycle? thats how I would interpret the rule... not that it has to BE a production platform...just based off of one... pretty vague... i'm with SD on this one, I like the color it brings to the series, one more thing to look out for vs watching the miguel zemke show of last year hoping that robbie would crack a podium or 2!
QuoteOh, yeah, and you could get a CBR600RR like Miguel's Daytona winning bike too to ride on the street.
Same difference. Same goes for their HRC parts in Supersport too, which is a tighter rule class. You're not going to ride it home either.
You're gonna start with something. Who's race bike, other than a GP bike, started life with race glass on it? An XBRR can be built from an XB12R with parts that have been used on other XB12R street bikes to make them more "race appropriate".
A real GP bike is different.
Is a R1 LE a GP bike then? Limited production? Parts are available? You could build one, but you couldn't run it in Superstock or Superbike with an aftermarket slipper clutch according to the rules, I believe.
I don't have a love for Buell's, per se, but there seems to be some deep seated concern for something that just simply fits the rules.
can you ride a cbr600rr on the street? how about a R1LE? an R7? yep to all of those. can you ride a XBRR on the street?
i'm not against the Buell running, i like that there will be more variety out there. i am playing devils advocate(sort of) in staying that
by the rules the buell shouldnt be legal. now, if they were selling this as a race kit that you put on your XB12R, then there would be no arguing to be done.
Quotecan you ride a cbr600rr on the street? how about a R1LE? an R7? yep to all of those. can you ride a XBRR on the street?
i'm not against the Buell running, i like that there will be more variety out there. i am playing devils advocate(sort of) in staying that by the rules the buell shouldnt be legal. now, if they were selling this as a race kit that you put on your XB12R, then there would be no arguing to be done.
Does anyone have any hard factual information that the bike isn't in fact an XB12r with a kit? What does the title say? If you ran the VIN, what model would it say?
A lot of people are jumping to conclusions based upon a press release which is designed to hype things up.
Lets not forget that Suzuki SBK teams kind of 'forgot' to put VINs on their bikes last year at Daytona. Not reprocussions there.
according to RRW page 33 just above the pic 1st column...."The XB-RR starts with a standard XB Lightning Long Frame, which has extra fuel capacity within it's twin aluminum spars, up to 4.4 gallons....."
so guess that means it's BASED on a production bike then....
Chad - it's not GP or even close. It is a street bike modified for racing by a shop, in this case rather than buying a used Graves bike, or a new bike and paying someone like KWS to build it, you're paying Buell to do the work for you and they're giving you a nice discount since they're keeping all the street stuff you don't need.
Considedring it anyhting else is ludicrous.
Quotean R7? yep to all of those.
Technically if you are nitpicking, the R7 isnt street legal in the US. It was never submitted for DOT approval. ;D Doesnt stop someone from getting it titled. Aprilia RS250's arent supposed to be street bikes here either but yet they somehow manage to sneak by teh EPA ban in some states. ;D
I read Cycle News last night, and it seems that the frame is stock, but some of the engine modifications are . . . pretty amazing? For example, taking the stock engine cases, melting them down and re-casting the material into different cases. I guess that's a "modification."
Cycle News also report that the XBRR makes 150 hp? What do the Formula Xtreme bikes make?
I think it's arguably within the rules, and definitely worth going to see in action. (Get there early!)Anyone expect these bikes to race during the CCS races the week before?
150 crank HP. Might be 115 to 135 RWHP.
Supersport 06 R6's with a pipe are making over 110RWHP. I think there were AMA Yamaha 600's making 119 to 125+.
At least with honda out and yamaha and buell in, there might be more than two bikes in the race this year.
I'd love to see an american bike win a championship whether I care for buells or not.
I just hope someone told harley that the races are 20 laps long....
Quotecan you ride a cbr600rr on the street? how about a R1LE? an R7? yep to all of those. can you ride a XBRR on the street?
I'm not sure what your point is.
I rode my TZ250 on the street.
The examples that you give above for apparently "streetable" bikes don't get raced in the exact form that they come from teh show room. And that includes me as well as other racers, as well as AMA factory race teams.
An XBRR is a XB12R that is finished for racing. Rules for air cooled twins are different for four cylinder liquid cooled bikes than for four cylinder liquid cooled bike because they are not efficient in their design.
Some people buy bikes that are already race prepared from other shops and individuals. Those bikes aren't "street bikes" based on your concern. My R6 has never seen a mile with a license plate. Does that make it any less than what it is: a production based bike developed for street use that has been converted to racing duty.
Yamaha doesn't offer me a "race" R6. One with brake lines, a Yamaha FI/ignition box, gearing, no lights, etc. If they did, I'd probably be in line to buy one.
Ducati's offering one. What's your take on that? Do you racognize that as a "GP" bike too?
Aprilia RS250s certainly aren't "GP" bikes.
QuoteI rode my TZ250 on the street.
I have too, if around-the-block counts ;D
-z.
Why is it that a "real" production racebike cannot race in any AMA RACING class. Only modified streetbikes allowed. Does that make any sense?
I hope the XBRR (and Ducati's closed-course only DS1000 at the club level) bring about a resurgance in production racebikes available from the factories (like the GP bikes of old, sure you can still buy a 2006 TZ from Yamaha, but there is no new developement going on). In the long run you'll get more bang for the buck buying a purpose built racebike than converting a streetbike and overcoming the compromises that must be made.
If the class is called Formula XTREME - let's keep it extreme.
-z.
As for it being legal, if you put your Ed Key glasses on it is legal. But if you look closer at the rules it says the swingarm and engine must be based off the production street bike. The xbrr has a totally new swingarm and engine cases.
I have been building a race XB9 engine over the last month for a customer and have talked with some people who have actually ridden or have been at the tests with the xbrr. And Baker is right the thing will not last the pork chop crank is actually to light and is causing some problems. It locks the rear wheel on decel to the point where it almost will not restart and something about when the pork chop lobe is not quite at the top of its radius and the vertical cylinder fires it puts ton of stress on the primary chain and or the crank. This causes the already famous buell grenade.
The first thing I thought of was, they will have to make 50 of them available with lights and all the street legal stuff, if they came with wiring for lights and were street legal except for epa req., would there still be an argument over the legality of it.
Reminded me of when Bimota was trying to enter races with similar controversy?
Being an old Harley guy, I like the fact that the Buell is going to be racing in the 200. Maybe the AMA is wanting to bring in some Harley fans as they did with the Harley Super Bike program.
It's good for the Sport.
Any predictions on how many will finish 200 angry miles at Daytona?
That part about the "pork chop crank" and "incredible stress" causing "rear wheel lock-up on decel" sounds really nasty. Like, for example, coming off the banking into turn one? Three wide? Yikes. Let's hope they get that sorted.
The reason why Erik made this XBRR, as stated in Roadracing world, was because all of the buells are becoming that you have the know the right people to get it right. He made this bike to be a better shot for a privateer against the people that have tons of people behind them. This bike was built with much thought and testing into the motor to last for a full season as stated in Roadracing world. I thank Erik for making his dream come true and designing such a bike so that i can be competetive agaist the bigger names. i have been racing a XB9R since april of 2002, when i was 15 and i even did a full season with everything stock and still did well. I have put my life on the table for the exposure of my xb9, if anyone remembers i was on the cover of October 2002 Cycle Scene Magazine which right after the shoot i was in a bad accident and in the hospital for 6 weeks. i have been racing with my buell with slight modification to a 1169 battling xb12's and placed well. I cant wait for the new XBRR to come my way while i will be racing for the awesome people at Harley Davidson of Lakeland Florida and Customworld.com
Doesnt Ducati have a pork chop shapped crank too? the swingarm is basically a xb12 long and i believe the only new thing about the cases is that they are made of slightly lighter metal. I have full faith in this bike and myself and time will tell that this Buell WILL demolish many of its competitors. I will say that i am a proud american that will be aboard a great American Buell motorcycle. If you read the roadracing world article it says 150 HP at the WHEEL. also it says the motor is made differently then the xb12 allowing the use of larger internals. And it also says this motor has the same stroke as a stock XB9R 984cc motor. so i dont know how using a xb12 to make a clone XBRR is possible.
This is puuuurdy!! ;D
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.image-upload.org%2Fuploads%2Fd06%2Ffeb%2FSUbW8U.jpg&hash=f64bd668525206d213d0d6bfc70375cd06fd5114)
QuoteWhy is it that a "real" production racebike cannot race in any AMA RACING class. Only modified streetbikes allowed. Does that make any sense?.
Completely. You can buy an XB12R, a CBR, or an R6, etc.
The manufactures want to get out of building production race bikes like TZ's, RXS's, etc. If they didn't, they would support those classes. And they didn't support much. No Suzuki's or Kawasaki's in the 250 class, and Honda's were a bit more rare. Almost a one make race with Yamaha and the TZ's. Was still cool, but the writing on the wall was there years ago.
QuoteAs for it being legal, if you put your Ed Key glasses on it is legal. But if you look closer at the rules it says the swingarm and engine must be based off the production street bike. The xbrr has a totally new swingarm and engine cases.
Air cooled twins have the specific exemption in the FX rules to run a different swingarm. Engine is still based off the XB12R. Merrill has already ruled on this.
QuoteMaybe the AMA is wanting to bring in some Harley fans as they did with the Harley Super Bike program.
It's good for the Sport.
Any predictions on how many will finish 200 angry miles at Daytona?
The 883 program was better. Racers made some cash, if they could get an H-D dealer involved. It was a different sound, which is actually very important. NASCAR wants sound, MotoGP has open pipes, and Henry Degow pays more in ULGP if you run an open pipe. How many in line fours have you heard? The Triumph triple will sound good. The big Buell will add flavor.
Now we're back to what the two stroke GP bike provided...a different sound.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/buell_way/buelltech.asp
The techies the techies the techies :-X
If everybody is so proud of buell and they make so much HP , why do they run lightweight and not middleweight? Can't compete in class they were designed for so put them in a less competitive class to make them shine.. just my 2 cents....
Um, I though we were talking about the AMA?
CCS is a completely different ball of wax.
You dont think they will show up in ccs/asra?
XBRR exceeds displacement limits for LWSB.