Under the category of "It can't hurt to look at the menu" I've been thinking about the merits of an a/c Ducati in lightweight versus a built SV650 (call it about 90 hp.).
I think the bikes can be easily built to approximately the same power to weight ratio. It's the extra torque of the Ducati that attracts me.
At my 200lbs (okay, fine, that doesn't include the Vansons but there are still a few months left to lose weight if I put the candy bar down) wouldn't I rather have the extra torque while getting back on the gas?? ???
Any comments? ('Bout the torque, not my weight :P )
Dawn or Dave, go ahead and stick this in wrenching or tips/tricks if that's where it belongs. Tnks.
Well, that's a good question.
Think about a Buell vs SV and torque. Might be some merit. Matt Carr did well on his air cooled Ducati. You know much about their reliability?
Parts are still more easily accesable for the SV, probably cheaper too.
Ducati sounds like fun though.
Why not have both?
Don't know much about reliability. I haven't own an air cooled Duc. I know common thought is that the brand is less reliable. My SV has been very reliable and deserves credit for that.
Both would be built by a good mechanic.
I've thought about the Buells. Actually, they are a challenge to race against and that's what got me thinking about torque as their advantage. My impression is that they would be a more expensive route.
Air cooled Ducati's come in many flavors, from 620s to the dual-spark 1000.
Stay away from the Pantah case models (620, 750, 800, wet clutch). The cases generally can't take a lot of power. The 900 and 1000 are based on the 851 (888, 916, ....) cases, which can handle more power, plus a lot of the 4-valve aftermarket stuff will fit (slipper clutches, kit trannies, etc.)
The older bikes had long, raked out chassis and it was hard to make them turn. Newer ones fixed some of that.
They are pretty easy to work on, but valve adjustments are a pain, especially because the rear shock is in the way of the rear head.
There are a ton of go-fast parts on the market. Relaibility is a function of power and how the engine was built, i.e. high compression requires you to change to high strength studs as well. 90hp would not be a problem.
The SS1000DS would be a hard bike to beat in LW. It came stock with top line forks, brakes, and an adjustable length Ohlins shock. It's worth considereing a Monster as well, some came with the adjustable shock linkage used on the 4-v bikes.
-z.
QuoteParts are still more easily accesable for the SV, probably cheaper too.
Ducati sounds like fun though.
Why not have both?
I tried two bikes once. It didn't work out so hot. Went from an SV onto an R6 and right into the flank of K3. ;D
Thanks Zac. Your comments about cases confirms what I've heard.
How old are the older frames to avoid?
I think an SS1000DS AM and FM would be off the table considering the cost.
I've been racing on Duc 750ss. pretty fun in Ultra-Light class but in the other LW class I only manage to keep up with the traffic, maybe its the rider... not much advantage on torque with a 750ss
as for the reliability, I rode it hard just about every other weekend in the past season and it has not let me down (yet...).
QuoteAny comments? ('Bout the torque, not my weight :P )
Damn! You know us too well ;)
QuoteDamn! You know us too well ;)
;D And I expect to hear from K3 about that R6 comment too!
You've got 20 to go.
But Don, Super Dave Says horsepower doesn't matter and it will not make you any faster or improve your lap times. ::)
I'm sure this will greatly effect your purchase and decisions. ;D
QuoteBut Don, Super Dave Says horsepower doesn't matter and it will not make you any faster or improve your lap times. ::)
LMAO!!!!!
;D
True, but a happy rider can make a difference. If you can't get the set up on one bike, a rider may recognize what it is on another.
Jeremy Toye did pretty well on a simple R1 in Superbike in 2004. In 2005, he had all kinds of HRC kit parts on his CBR. But his results certainly didn't improve. Wasn't until he changed mechanics that he was able to sort our things to get it more like it needed to be.
Quote;D And I expect to hear from K3 about that R6 comment too!
You've got 20 to go.
He just told me the whole story, hilarious!
my brother is selling a 900ss 2001 with a bunch of goodies and new titled frame.if your interested let me know and I'll get him in touch with you or give you his numberI think he wants 4000.00 for it but I'm not sure.
I have raced two and 4 valve Ducarly's in the past and anyone that raced in the mid-west then will tell you I had nothing but problems with them. If you leave it stock you can get away with some reliability. But the second you modify it, you run into many reliability issues. Valves, rockers, rectifier, p/u coil, just to name a few known problems. They are fun to ride but I think they are just not reliable enough to race.
QuoteI've thought about the Buells. Actually, they are a challenge to race against and that's what got me thinking about torque as their advantage. My impression is that they would be a more expensive route.
I don't think racing a Buell would be more expensive than racing a Ducati. More expensive than an SV? Maybe. But I know plenty of SV racers who have twice as much money into their bikes as I do my XB12R.
Remember the Buell has premium, fully adjustable Showa suspension and high end braking components standard. No valve adjustments needed (automatic hydraulic). Excellent frame rigidity. Good crash durability (don't ask). Stone simple engine. And an excellent contingency program that pays EVERY CCS weekend in all regions.
I think you should get the Ducati. Everyone knows that Italian bikes have sex appeal, and frankly Don, you need all the help you can get in that department!
Besides, with the cost of crash repair always looming in your mind, you'd be less likely to "OverCook" it into my flank again! ;D
QuoteI don't think racing a Buell would be more expensive than racing a Ducati.
Paul, you're right. That was a misstatement on my part. I was thinking in terms of an older model Ducati with a freshly built motor. I think of Buells as newer bikes so I was thinking of it as more expensive. You know I'm tempted by the Buells everytime you pass me!
QuoteI think you should get the Ducati. Everyone knows that Italian bikes have sex appeal, and frankly Don, you need all the help you can get in that department!
Besides, with the cost of crash repair always looming in your mind, you'd be less likely to "OverCook" it into my flank again! ;D
Who knows? I may show up with an R6 again some day. ;D
My SV's at the mechanic and the bodywork's at the painter (I think it'll be red this time) so I guess I'll still be on the SV next year.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
If I laugh until I cry when figure skaters fall....is that empathy?
Love it! ;D ;D ;D
HEY! Were you.... :o >:( >:( >:( Laura! Get my gun!
QuoteGood crash durability (don't ask). Stone simple engine. And an excellent contingency program that pays EVERY CCS weekend in all regions.
I don't know we would've needed some judges to compare the two after autobahn last year. ;D
I've raced a ducati 900ss for almost two seasons with no problems. The engine was always dependable and handled like a dream. I think if you were to really build the engine up you may run into problems ie. grenading , but you don't need to for the classes its suited for.I've been competitive against sv's and buell's. ;D
Build an H2.
QuoteBuild an H2.
Would that be some sort of bionic H-man? ;D
Or maybe you're suggesting a Hummer for Don to run... er... I mean swap paint with K3 8)
Well, this is the R version, which woudn't be legal for a street bike class, but you'll get the idea.
It predates those pesky little SUV's...
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kawasakitriplesworldwide.com%2Ftom%2520pipes%2Fdave_crussell_h2r_nixon%2FH1R%25202004.jpg&hash=23fed1337a622793c6424f16678ec2880af02456)
Its great jumping bike to bike if you do well, it helps make you marketable and adaptable. I went from the R1100S BMW Boxer Cup at 500lbs. to the ZX10 back to back and put them both in 2nd. You should really look at the riding style you have adapted. Longer wheel base bikes may be your style where the Buell is rather (understatement0 short in wb. There were some prettyy strong running Ducs that were great in the fast stuff, but the Buells were better in the tight stuff.
DUDE, get a BMW! You wont need a GYM membership!
N8! Kern
CCS MA #1
CCS SE #1
Nate, what do you have going on for 2006?
Hey Don - I was thinking about the ducs, too, back in the day. Apart from Palmer kicking everyone's bee hind on one, I don't have a lot of other data points for you. Except that Penguin uses them in their school, and you could go try one there if you wanted: http://www.penguinracing.com/pages/27_motorcycles.cfm
Just tell the wife you need to do some research.. ;D ;)
QuoteNate, what do you have going on for 2006?
I think this is it. (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.earthlink.net%2F%7Eccs440%2Fbmw1.jpg&hash=40327c350f9a8b02ac2df140e84f24389de2fa47)
Looks awesome Nate!
Thanks for the comments.
You know how it starts...Paul James passes you on a Buell...Gary Palmer on a Duc...you're thinking, "I wonder what I could do with one of those?"
I do think I could benefit from the Duc's torque though. 900ss @ 56 ft/lb stock is tempting and must get the power to the ground better than the SV's 46.ft/lbs.
Quote"I wonder what I could do with one of those?"
I think the same thing when Ed Key runs away and hides on his 300-lb SV. ;)
The grass is always greener...?
In the LWSS race at ROC, it was Key on his SV, Kern on his Beemer, me on my XB and Dave White on his Duck DS 1000. 4 different brands in the top 4.
Would the results have been the same if we traded bikes around? Probably. I'd need some lessons from Nate on that big BMW tho...
QuoteI don't know we would've needed some judges to compare the two after autobahn last year. ;D
Yep. That was a one wild ride. Reminder to self: Do not smash brake lever into tailsection of fellow Buell racer at high speed. Bad things happen after that.
QuoteYep. That was a one wild ride. Reminder to self: Do not smash brake lever into tailsection of fellow Buell racer at high speed. Bad things happen after that.
You're telling me, I'm still piecing that bike back together. Of course the longest part was me budgeting the money to buy the parts. Shouldn't be too bad now.
I was looking at the Duc option too, but I really wanted inverted fully adjustable forks which don't come into play I don't think until the 1000
QuoteWell, that's a good question.
Think about a Buell vs SV and torque. Might be some merit. Matt Carr did well on his air cooled Ducati. You know much about their reliability?
Reliability issues are a thing of the past, 2 and 4 valve. I have been working on Ducatis for almost 10 years the only thing that differs from the Jap bikes is the shorter service intervals. The chassis' are unbelievable and there is plenty of set-up info available from those that have raced them seriously.
I would suggest the 1000DS to anyone who is interested in kicking some butt in lightweight. Although they are still getting around to it, I believe Ducati might be offering contingencey for the 1000DS in lightweight and supertwins as well as offering money up to race the 749 and 999 series bikes.
While were on the subject, I have torn down a 749R and a 999S, each with 2 full seasons and they look beautiful inside. NO problems whatsoever. Indeed, the old desmoquattro motors would most likely not be so lucky. The 2 valvers have ALWAYS been reliable workhorses and they are even better now with the addition of plain bearing cams and dual sparkplugs, not to mention 1000cc to start with.
Back to the air-cooled Ducs, I would be more than happy to answer/discuss anything about the bikes. They will more than handle an SV, gauranteed. I was on the phone with Brian Lacy a few weeks ago. I wonder what he is racing next year?
QuoteI have raced two and 4 valve Ducarly's in the past and anyone that raced in the mid-west then will tell you I had nothing but problems with them. If you leave it stock you can get away with some reliability. But the second you modify it, you run into many reliability issues. Valves, rockers, rectifier, p/u coil, just to name a few known problems. They are fun to ride but I think they are just not reliable enough to race.
I think you were unlucky and I remember one of your suppliers was well known for supplying crappy worn-out bikes. With that said, you rode them well. Peace.
Yep, Lacy's on a Duck for 2006. Hang with the Ducati crew for long enough and they'll assimilate you. Resistance is futile...
Lucky for me they still need a token Buell rider to kick around. ;)
QuoteYep, Lacy's on a Duck for 2006. Hang with the Ducati crew for long enough and they'll assimilate you. Resistance is futile...
Lucky for me they still need a token Buell rider to kick around. ;)
Ahhhemmmmm....
And you, Bernard, and Karl are any better? :D
QuoteAhhhemmmmm....
And you, Bernard, and Karl are any better? :D
True dat...
But, unlike the Ducati-ista, we don't bother to ply you with imported dark beer and promises of fame, fortune and swooning pit tootsies. Instead we drink your beer and promise, ah, well, nothing. Did I mention we'll drink your beer? :)
QuoteTrue dat...
But, unlike the Ducati-ista, we don't bother to ply you with imported dark beer and promises of fame, fortune and swooning pit tootsies. Instead we drink your beer and promise, ah, well, nothing. Did I mention we'll drink your beer? :)
I hate dark beer. But I still promise some fame and swooning pit tootsies. Hey Paul, what bike are you on and what's the hp/torque?
QuoteAhhhemmmmm....
And you, Bernard, and Karl are any better? :D
Born To Be Wild, mullets, and cackling straight pipes. I'm surprised you guys don't race in chaps and vests! ;)
FREEBIRD!
Martin Brickwood valve collets will cure what ails the maintenance issues, from MBP. You'll love the extra torque even if PJ and the gang are still flyin by. ;)
QuoteI hate dark beer. But I still promise some fame and swooning pit tootsies. Hey Paul, what bike are you on and what's the hp/torque?
My XB12R (in Supersport trim) made 85hp and weighed in at a portly 440lbs. wet on the dyno/scales at F-USA Daytona last Fall. Both the bike and I (205lbs.) are on a diet this winter...
QuoteBorn To Be Wild, mullets, and cackling straight pipes. I'm surprised you guys don't race in chaps and vests! ;)
FREEBIRD!
Karl and I wish we had enough hair for mulletts. Bernie's classic Kentucky Waterfall puts us all to shame.
QuoteKarl and I wish we had enough hair for mulletts. Bernie's classic Kentucky Waterfall puts us all to shame.
;) ;D
Problem solved. I went to Detroit today to pick up a table that my wife bought on Ebay and came back with a table and an XB12R.
potato, potato!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Time for a bar and shield tattoo! :D
I can't laugh at that stuff like that. They're my bros now. ;D
I so totally need to find you a cute little leather cap like the leather guy in the Village People wore! :D
QuoteI can't laugh at that stuff like that. They're my bros now. ;D
I think it's cool, Don. I think it's a workable package. Biggest thing is to have fun. And like my H1, it's all about smoke and noise... ;D
Cook, you're a trader!!! :P The dark side is a tuff place to live 8). You might have to hire Hoebiz for personal protection "til da hood 'cepts ya". Good luck with your heavy metal
Guy
LOL! Yeah, you'll get to know all the AKA's now... 8)
;D
Hey, everybody needs a project. Keeps me out of trouble.
If all goes well, I'll have my new project in about 48 hours.... :-X
QuoteCook, you're a trader!!! :P The dark side is a tuff place to live 8). You might have to hire Hoebiz for personal protection "til da hood 'cepts ya". Good luck with your heavy metal
Guy
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 8)
QuoteKarl and I wish we had enough hair for mulletts. Bernie's classic Kentucky Waterfall puts us all to shame.
I don't care who you are, dat right dere is funny.
QuoteProblem solved. I went to Detroit today to pick up a table that my wife bought on Ebay and came back with a table and an XB12R.
Oh no you di-ent! >:(
You weren't really within 20 minutes of me and didn't call for us to hook up for lunch, beer or some Super Bowl type thing? >:(
QuoteLOL! Yeah, you'll get to know all the AKA's now... 8)
Am I missing something here? ???
"dark side" "AKA". Don my man, are you seeing a sister in Aplha Kapa Alpha up here in Detroit? :-X ;D
LOL!
QuoteAm I missing something here? ???
"dark side" "AKA". Don my man, are you seeing a sister in Aplha Kapa Alpha up here in Detroit? :-X ;D
Hey H! I swear I felt guilty all the way there and back for not calling you somehow. I really wanted to but I knew that if I hauled a$$ I'd get over to Lansing before the place closed to look at this bike.
I ended up driving 895 miles that day to Detroit, Lansing, back home to unload and hook up the trailer, back to Lansing to get the bike and back home again. Now where in all that would I have the time (or money left) for something on the side? ;D
Not to mention that my wife looks the other way when it comes to my passions as long as they have two wheels, not two legs!
Dave (or @ or whatever your handle is today), I'm a middle aged white guy. I'll have to defer to Hoebiz and you for an AKA. :)
QuoteDave (or @ or whatever your handle is today), I'm a middle aged white guy. I'll have to defer to Hoebiz and you for an AKA. :)
Mawg
;D
Hoebiz?
QuoteI'm a middle aged white guy.
Yeah, and your point is...?
You can't fool me. I
know yous a playa 8)
Quote...my wife looks the other way when it comes to my passions as long as they have two wheels, not two legs!
Not to worry though. You're secret's safe with me ;) ;D ;D
QuoteHey H! I swear I felt guilty all the way there and back for not calling you somehow. I really wanted to but I knew that if I hauled a$$ I'd get over to Lansing before the place closed to look at this bike.
I ended up driving 895 miles that day to Detroit, Lansing, back home to unload and hook up the trailer, back to Lansing to get the bike and back home again.
Well, Okay. :-*
QuoteNot to mention that my wife looks the other way when it comes to my passions as long as they have two wheels, not two legs!
;D
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaska.net%2F%7Erowlett%2Fimages%2Fwheelchair.jpg&hash=aea50f96ccfb4651f5975c0ec304b6b3d6607c4b)
OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW!
That's way cold Dave. ;D
That isn't a powered chair and you know it.
:P ;D
You'll always be Cptn. Cook to me! ;)
Does this change the calculus in the Duck's favor?
DUCATI ANNOUNCES SPECIAL PRODUCTION "FOR RACING ONLY" SS1000 MOTORCYCLE
Race track only motorcycle production limited to 30 units
Cupertino, CA - February 3, 2006 - In conjunction with the release of the 2006 racing contingency program, Ducati North America announces a limited production SS1000 that is intended to be used exclusively for racing and track day events. This motorcycle is stripped of all the street essentials and is priced accordingly, making it the ultimate platform for racers and track day riders alike. By design, it is intended to encourage track day participation and club racing. These motorcycles are ready for immediate delivery to dealers on a special order basis.
Pricing:
MSRP: $7,999
Seeing that Don bought a Buell already...
From what I read that looks like a good deal, especially with the Ohlins already on it.
Fortunately I got a good deal on a lightly used Buell so I should be able to race that economically or I'd be kicking myself! Plus, I've already owned Ducs and I'm kind of looking forward to being abused by some American Steel for a change.
QuotePlus, I've already owned Ducs and I'm kind of looking forward to being abused by some American Steel for a change.
Oh, you'll be abused.... 8)
QuoteOh, you'll be abused.... 8)
Not by you since you went back to a 750! :P
The thought of getting T-Boned by a Harley was too terrifying for me to consider. Sometimes it's better to just leave while you still can....