What would you guys think about an amatuer racer starting off with a liter bike given he is not a slow rider (like I've read about some doing 100mph down straights)? What classes would he be eligible for?
I would say 100 mph is a very conservative estimate. We've clocked bikes at Daytona at 180...at Roebling, 165. As for a 'liter' bike, I'm assuming that's a 1000. You are eligible for Unlimited Supersport (if it's stock), Unlimited GP, and GTO.
No, sorry I wasn't more clear. I read another post on here about amateurs only doing 100mph down the stretch and being in the way. I won't be one of those I assure you. I am taking it to the track for fear of losing my license as frequently I ride faster than that on the street. I have ridden liter bikes for nearly 10 years now so I just wanted some opinions about starting off on the track with a GSXR 1000, 954, R1, etc.. Thanks.
Here is the start of a long coming list of what you do down the straights does not matter. Do yourself a favor and dump the liter bike and get a 600 or an SV. Curse me now thank me later, life is a bit different in turn 1 than whatever you've experienced. I too thought I could handle it no prob until I flew down the main straight and then hit my brake marker only to be passed by several guys on smaller bikes. There are a lot more turns on the track than straights. You asked so you got it.
here here. SV is a great way to start. Not to under estimate your abilty's but going fast on the street is one thing, but it has little to do with going fast on a track. You'll know this when someone on a 65hp SV 650 passes you on your gsxr 1000 like your standing still.
I think your doing the right thing by going to the track though. Be warned its worse that herion, smoking and crack combined.
Good luck and welcome.
YTAK
They are all right. About everything. (Even the Drugs part. It's also more expensive) Hopefully if this list gets long enough, you will take our word for it. A 600 would be plenty of bike for a newbie. Every new racer thinks they are plenty experienced, etc... Until they need to brake for that first turn.
When I started racing, I rode a '98 ZX-9R on the street. I started racing on an F2.
Plus, what do you need a 1000 for? Going around the corners is the fun part, not going a couple miles an hour faster down the straights.
You will be alot happier learning how to race on a bike that is easier to slow down and brake without having to worry about it spitting you off coming out of a corner.
Good luck. We will see you at the track.
[quoteI think your doing the right thing by going to the track though. Be warned its worse that herion, smoking and crack combined.
Good luck and welcome.
][/quote]
Thanks! I originaly got this bike as a trackday machine so I wouldn't throw my streetbike down. Well, now I'm taking it to the track I'm less interested in riding on the street. Just wondering. I look at it this way. If I'm a better rider it won't matter what bike I'm on so I'll just have to work at becoming a better rider. BTW, I'm not exactly a lightweight. I'm around 250lbs (football player) so I was concerned about riding SV's and 600 as I would be at a significant disadvantage riding against some of my 160lb counterparts.
It sounds to me like your mind is made up. Being on the track ( I believe ) is 98% cornering speed.
A GSXR 1000 is not the best Started bike. Your size and weight are not much of a factor either. I'm 6'3 230 and ride a small bike. There is a guy named Casper that ....has at least 65 lbs. on me and races a lightwieght bike and is very, very fast! and smokes most of the skinny little guys.
...sorry edgar. ( you know Im with you bud )
and my last piece of advise. Dont worry about winning. Worry about track time and being smooth.
QuoteYour size and weight are not much of a factor either. I'm 6'3 230 and ride a small bike. There is a guy named Casper that ....has at least 65 lbs. on me and races a lightwieght bike and is very, very fast! and smokes most of the skinny little guys.
...sorry edgar. ( you know Im with you bud )
and my last piece of advise. Dont worry about winning. Worry about track time and being smooth.
K3 (who won six championships by the way) is a big guy and was also on a lightweigt bike.
My husband is 230 lbs and rides a stock SV, sure some may out horsepower him, but riding a lightweight bike is the best way for anyone to learn. You will force yourself to learn how to corner and pick the best lines because you will not be able to just horsepower out of it. (did that make sense?)
My $.01
Dawn
Everyone I know who starts racing a (4 cyl.) liter bike, and even most who start on 750's, wished they didn't and come back next year on something smaller if they come back. Granted the sample size is kinda small, 4 or 5 guys I can think of that tried it.
No one I've heard of that races a LTWT or 600 wished they were on a liter bike.
So, the question of what would I think ?
Cool, another 1000 to beat in ULGP ;)
Thanks for the advice.
Believe me I'm not worried about winning. My only goals for my first year are to not get hurt seriously, don't get anyone else hurt and finish the year with a rideable bike. I am looking to do as many track days and race weekends as I can. Just feel like it's a better alternative to riding on the street for the way I like to ride.
I do have to say though that I have never felt comfortable on a 600. I like feeling like a small rider on a big bike rather than vice versa. To me comfort equates to confidence.
I have no doubt that I'm going to get schooled by better riders regardless of what they're riding but that's what motivates me. I HATE not being one of the best at whatever it is I do. That'll drive me to get better and better. This might take a while though.
QuoteCool, another 1000 to beat in ULGP ;)
Experts don't race amateurs ;)
QuoteExperts don't race amateurs ;)
Didn't you see me new icon??? ;D
You have many more options to race with a 600 or a lightweight bike. A 1000 cc four limits you to just a few classes. Track time is the key to learning.
You will be much better off with a smaller bike. I'm sure you think you are fast, but it is a whole different ballgame when you get on the track.
A GSXR 1000 can spit you off in a heartbeat and yes, it hurts. Fixing a bike and yourself can cause you to miss alot of weekends.
I'm not sure if you really wanted to get advice, but if you listen to what the people are saying, you will think again about your ride.
QuoteDidn't you see me new icon??? ;D
Ya know... It's not all that clear. And after looking at it for a while, I'm not sure I really want to know what the picture is.
Dawn ;)
You'll have fun whatever you ride, but a big bike will never scoot around corners like a lightweight. So it will be harder to judge your improvement and may encourage you to over do it and crash trying to keep up with them. BE AWARE OF THAT REALITY. The other consideration is tires toasting faster than your wallet can refill. Lightweight bikes are alot cheaper to maintain.
Yea.. definitely start on the 250-600 bikes. I did a few track days on a ZX-7, then decided to ditch street riding, sold it and got my priller 250... no joke.. the first session I rode on the 250, I turned faster laps than the ZX-7.
LW bikes make you learn how to get around the track using skill, not horsepower. Learn the technique then learn the horsepower.... Technique is transferrable from bike to bike, however, HP is not!
A non-related example is like.. back in elementary school soccer, when I played for FPYC, we had this kid Ryan, who grew up on a farm, and grew up kicking soccer balls barefoot. He was pretty good at it,.. so when he put on a pair of shoes and played.. he was insane. I've never in my life seen someone kick the ball as hard as he could.
QuoteI do have to say though that I have never felt comfortable on a 600. I like feeling like a small rider on a big bike rather than vice versa. To me comfort equates to confidence.
My husband is 6'4" and 230 lbs. One of his first bikes was an FZR400 and the other was a ZX-6.
http://www.sliderphoto.com/bin/photos.asp?Racer=996&Event=090801
The following year he moved up to an SV
http://www.sliderphoto.com/bin/photos.asp?Racer=996&Event=080202
As you can see, he looks pretty big on both, but he will tell you he learned more on the Fizzer and the SV on how to go fast verses the ZX-6.
Dawn ;)
P.S. By the way, his street bike is a 'busa because that is the only bike big enough to fit him comfortably.
How does he get comfortable on a 600 then? Every 600 I've ridden makes me feel like I'm sitting "on top" of it instead of "in" it. It feels awkward and that doesn't encourage me to ride aggresively.
Two other things I'm considering here:
1. Won't the rules for CCS/WERA change in a year or so and follow AMA in opening up more classes to I4 1000cc bikes?
2. Why when liter bikes are only 15-20 lbs heavier now and the frame geometry is similar as well are the literbikes so much more difficult to brake and turn in? I know about the larger crank mass and gyroscopic force and all that but the cranks on the 1000c aren't spinning up as much and thw wheels and brakes aren't too far off now either. Is it just the extra speed you're carrying from turn to turn?
Okay, have it....
I'm not exactly a lightweight. I'm around 250lbs (football player) so I was concerned about riding SV's and 600 as I would be at a significant disadvantage riding against some of my 160lb counterparts.
When I first started racing, I was the baddest street rider you've ever seen. My street ride (until I sold it to feed my racing crack habbit) was a very non-stock ZX11. I could wheelie it for miles, and drag my knee around off-ramps. For years, every vacation had been spent in the North Georgia mountains, and I had several Keith Code schools under my belt. I was very selective about who I would ride with, because people were always crashing trying to keep up with me. Boy, was I in for a reality check when I started racing!
I began competing four years ago, at 300 lbs, on an EX500. On the EX500, I was the fastest guy in my rider's school, even against liter bikes. It would be three years later before I earned my first trophy. (Suprise! I sucked!) By my third season, I had dieted down to 250 lbs, and was riding an FZR400.
The fourth season, I built the 400 into a 560cc superbike. I was down to 230 lbs. Everyone said the 12 year old FZR was no match for 700cc, 100hp SVs, but it was what I could afford. I faced riders who weighed as little as 105 lbs. The result of my fourth season was forty trophies, including three wins, and six regional championships. After all I've done in lightweight, (Including a 5th at the Daytona race of champions) I am moving to expert this year. Finally, I have bought a 600.
We've got a guy named Billy Casper who makes me look slim. He kicks major bootie on an old F2. Another fat boy champion. Desire and talent win races. Big guys can kick it, because we're agressive and used to surviving most of the punishment that comes our way. Little guys get nervious about trying to take corners away from our huge, solid @$$es. You'll do well, but remember this. Most guys who start on big bikes don't stay long. Those who do usually sell the big one and get something smaller the second year.
Don't sell yourself short because you are large, and don't start on a big bike. You won't learn anything except how to destroy tires, and how to highside. An SV or a 600 is the way.
I crewed for Mark Junge of Vesrah Suzuki for a while. He ran his 750 GSXR in the unlimited races, when there was a perfectly good GSXR1000 sitting right next to it. He only used the 1000 for endurance, because he felt the motor didn't have to work as hard as the 750 with a full tank of gas. He said that the smaller bike was faster everywhere except Road America.
You'll make your own choice. Either way, good luck and welcome to racing!
K3
"it ain't the meat, it's the motion"
You can have all the meat/horsepower you want but it won't make you faster unless you learn to ride. ccs354 said it already: there are many more classes for 600s and lightweights and track time really IS the key to learning to go fast! Best piece of hardware you'll take to the track is YOU. Improve THAT first.
Way big horsepower can even be a detriment to learning, newbies often use it as a crutch. It is often seen that they will stand on it down a straight to make up time but park it in the corners.
You, yourself, indicated that the average liter bike is just as small as a 600, yet you decline to ride a 600 because it's too small: "you sit on top instead of in it". 'splain dat one, Lucy!
No I said they have similar frame geometries and weigh only a few pounds more. Ergos are quite different. Shorter, smaller tank, shorter reach to bars, etc.
This is good feedback though. Keep it coming.
QuoteNo I said they have similar frame geometries and weigh only a few pounds more. Ergos are quite different. Shorter, smaller tank, shorter reach to bars, etc.
This is good feedback though. Keep it coming.
Specs on GSXR-600
Overall Length: 2040mm (80.3 in.)
Overall Width: 715mm (28.1 in.)
Overall Height: 1135mm (44.6 in.)
Seat Height: 830mm (32.7 in.)
Ground Clearance: 130mm (5.1 in.)
Wheelbase: 1400mm (55.1 in.)
Dry Weight: 163kg (359 lbs.) 164kg (361 lbs.) CA. model
________________________________________________
GSXR-750
Overall Length: 2040mm (80.3 in.)
Overall Width: 715mm (28.1 in.)
Overall Height: 1135mm (44.7 in.)
Seat Height: 830mm (32.7 in.)
Ground Clearance: 130mm (5.1 in.)
Wheelbase: 1410mm (55.5 in.)
Dry Weight: 166kg (365 lbs.) 167kg (368 lbs.) CA. Model
_________________________________________________
GSXR-1000
Overall Length: 2045mm (80.5 in.)
Overall Width: 715mm (28.1 in.)
Overall Height: 1135mm (44.6 in.)
Seat Height: 830mm (32.3 in.)
Ground Clearance: 130mm (5.1 in.)
Wheelbase: 1410mm (55.5 in.)
Dry Weight: 168 kg (370 lbs.)
__________________________________________________
If you're talking new bikes, the ergo's are all about the same.
Dawn
I was going to point out the same thing about the GSX-Rs. A GSX-R 600 should not feel much different than your 1000. However, I do know what you mean about sitting 'on top' of the bike as opposed to 'in' the bike. I enjoy feeling 'in' the bike as well, like you do on a ZX-7 or my current bike, a '00 GSXR-750.
However, I will say this: I did not feel the difference as much when I was racing the F2. I don't know why, but it was not as bad as when I was on the street. There could be a couple of factors to this.
1) You are moving around on the bike alot more and hanging off of it. So, you spend less time 'perched' on top of it.
2) The geometry of a race bike is radically different than a street bike. You can lower the Clip-Ons a little to make it feel better, etc. On my GSX-R, the front end is lowered about 12mm and the rear is jacked up about 13mm. I also have rearsets on the bike that are located 1 inch further back and 1 inch higher. My point is that you can't totally compare how bikes feel when they are 'streetbikes'.
I am one of the apparent rare guys who started on a heavyweight bike and has stayed there (except for a few races this year where I was getting use to racing again after 2 1/2 years off - ran my GSXR 600 only). I purchased my GSXR 600 as a back-up bike / rain bike / opportunity to run more classes.
I agree with the other racers here about a bigger bike being a handicap to someone just beginning racing at the track. After taking my school at the end of 1995 on an F2 (and never racing that season) I decided to get the latest greatest bad boy bike for racing at that time - the just introduced, completely new 1996 GSXR 750. I felt like I too fit more in this bike than on it like my F2 made me feel (at that time I was 5'-10" / 210 lbs.). So in 1996 I started racing my new GSXR (one of only a few that were raced that year in the CCS midwest region) and quickly realized that even though I had one of the fastest bikes out there, I couldn't keep up with the guys on the smaller bikes (overall lap times that is). At the main straight away I would pass multiple bikes almost every lap only to have those positions taken away from me by those same guys over the next few turns. I admit now that it had to be frustrating to those guys who were faster than I was, yet they had to go thru passing me almost every lap cause I would pass them on the straight.
The two biggest things that were keeping me slow at that time (other than lack of racing experience) were suspension and power. Suspension is the No.1 thing you should invest in as a racer. There are not too many worse confidence destroyers as an unstable bike. The suspension on that bike was set-up for something like a 130lb. rider as built by the factory. To compensate I had cranked down the preload on the springs to stop from bottoming the suspension. The problem with this is that you now create a pogo stick type suspension that is overloaded. The 'moment' that changed me for ever was going into turn 1 at BHF, almost completely loosing my brakes, and having to decide if I should try and make the turn or go agricultural racing. I chose to try the turn, and I made it! The kicker to it all was that the suspension didn't feel like a bucking bronco during that manuever (cause there was enough force to keep the suspension loaded thru the whole corner). This one life-altering experience at the end of my first year greatly helped reduce my lap times from then on.
The other limiter to my getting faster was too much power! One problem is that you get going faster down the straights and then have to adjust your speed for the corner coming up with ultimately less time to do it. Then most likely you will over brake and realize that your now going too slow mid-turn and try and accelerate at that point. This is where having alot of power will bite you. On a 750 & up machine (some smaller bikes too!) you are able to break the rear tire loose very easily. If you don't have great respect for that power under you it is very easy to get the rear end to come around on you unintentionally - many times resulting in a high-side or an underwear change being needed. On the middle weight and lower bikes this is not as much of a problem and therefore lets you get on the throttle sooner and results in lower lap times more easily.
Though I have only crashed once for this reason, I have had more close calls because of it than I care to remember. If you do decide to race a larger bike I would consider having it slightly de-tuned and/or purchase gearing that is for speeds faster than the track you are at. The reason for the taller gearing is to reduce your ability to spin the rear tire (you could also keep the bike in a gear or two to high for the corner your in - example; use 3rd or 4th gear instead of 2nd for a particular turn).
No matter what you decide, good luck, and enjoy the racing community!
Thanks Mike that helps alot. I already have Ohlins forks and shock and Brembo brakes so I'm good there. I know those are the two areas that are most important to going fast safely whether it be street or track.
Well, looks like I might be investing in a 600 too....damn it!
Your Ohlins forks / Brembo brakes just cut you from one of the classes you could have run, ULSS...so now you are down to 2 races per weekend if you stay on that bike...ULGP and GTO. :(
Ditch the monster. Buy a 600. And a trailer. :)
You sound like me last winter when I wanted to maybe race my GSXR1K after having owned liter bikes for the street for several years. You will make the transition to racing just fine over the course of a couple weekends. In fact, you will probably be so hooked and learn so much respect for what it really takes to go fast you may just get rid of the streetbike, and certainly will find back road riding boring in comparison.
~~And though its been said, many times, many ways, ditch the monster errrr...errr Merry Christmas...errrrr... Happy Holidays....to you~~~
My advice....... run what ya brung. Ride the $hit out of that 1000 till the wheels fall off.
After a couple of race weekends, everything you have been hearing on this thread doesn't matter because you will then understand ;)
Come aboard and smack that arm with the rest of us ;D
QuoteCome aboard and smack that arm with the rest of us ;D
LOL...visions of Trainspotting ....
LOL ...well said
Hmm...there's a theme developing here. I heard that others riders will only protest Ohlins/Brembo upgrades once you start winning or beating them. I don't think I'll have to worry about that for a few years. I'm not going to get rid of my literbike. She's set-up too nicely and well, she's mine!
I am however looking around for a 600 now. Only thing is I've heard and seen the carnage in the AM SS class. Sometimes two wave starts and too much disparity between rider skill. Some guys are haulin arse while others are getting lapped 3 times in a five lap race! (No kidding, I saw it for myself) This may have been an extreme case but even the EX riders I know call it the Meatgrinder class and told me how glad they were to be racing EX from now on. They said they almost felt like they were going to lose their life each race weekend in that class.
Quote...two wave starts and too much disparity between rider skill. Some guys are haulin arse while others are getting lapped 3 times in a five lap race! (No kidding, I saw it for myself) This may have been an extreme case but even the EX riders I know call it the Meatgrinder class...
I raced in what you and others are calling the "meatgrinder class" for my first races this year. I had plenty of track time and training from Schwantz Suzuki School before I went out and raced. I never once "feared for my life". You have to get used to getting passed and riding in close quarters. Once my expectations were properly set, I had more fun than a 5 legged man in a butt kicking contest... Backmarkers give all the new racers someone to practice passing and late braking while the faster amateurs give us lessons in humility. I'll be back on a 600cc, God willing and the creek don't rise!
ummmm Dave...so I didn't scare you THAT bad, eh ;)
Quoteummmm Dave...so I didn't scare you THAT bad, eh ;)
Nahhh... Not scared, just mad! (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apriliaridersite.com%2Fforum%2Fclipart%2Fsnarl.gif&hash=7f05f49e04423658d17d8a7f56a7754a4a77fb32)
Like I said before, I'm just gonna lean it a little more and roll on the throttle a little sooner next year. I hope to make an outside pass a bit more challenging...
Did you appeal your ex promotion? You ride well enough, why not take advantage of the better teachers?
Dunno if i will or not, well I prolly will appeal, only cause i want to do all the tracks one more time around and also race with my buddies.
Other than Gateway, the only track I went to twice was BHF and it rained both weekends :(
Dammit FastBoy. I'm in the same boat. Really gorgeous '01 RC51 with Ohlins & Brembos all around and NO racing license,....... yet. I have a LOT of confidence on that bike --- more so than my 954.
Sigh.......... now I gotta get a 600. Sh!t!!!! My wife's gonna kill me! I hope I got her an impressive Chrismas gift.
Happy Holidays to all, and I REALLY enjoyed this thread.
QuoteI hope I got her an impressive Chrismas gift.
Umm, oldguy if you have to ask it probably isn't too impressive. ::)
Thanks for the reponse though. Maybe I'll see ya in the AM SS classes and at the back of the GT classes.
QuoteReally gorgeous '01 RC51 with Ohlins & Brembos all around
I would say an RC51 would be a better choice than the CBR954. The big twin has gentler power delivery allowing you to get on the gas sooner and harder out of the turns. The weight is still and issue, but not hard to control HP.
I'll add my $.02.
Race a 1000 if you're in the mood for not really learning how to RACE a bike, spending serious cash on tires, hi-siding yourself to the moon and destroying lots of plastic and bike parts. Youre expenses can easily approach or exceed a $1,000 a weekend.
I raced a ducati the last two seasons and am moving up to a 1000 next year. The duc didn't have a lot of hp and really taught me how to ride hard to try and keep up with 750 when I was down 25 hp to them. Less hp means you have to learn how to carry corner speed, late break and you can be a little ham-fisted with the throttle. With a 1000, you will be terrified to twist the throttle because it will want to kill you.
I raced an sv and some 600, 750's last year as well. The sv is an absolute blast. Tires last forever, they are bulletproof and just buttloads of fun. 600's are fun as well.
Try to focus on saving your money for entry fees and dumping gas into the thing and riding the wheels off of it.
With a 1000 you can't ride enough classes. I had a buddy that started racing with a 954 last year and sure enough, he got a little greedy with the throttle, hi-sided and wadding his bike up and watched it burn! An sv won't spit you off on the hi-side unless you really do something boneheaded.
Welcome to the addiction. I now deem you very poor! :D
QuoteLess hp means you have to learn how to carry corner speed, late break and you can be a little ham-fisted with the throttle.
Why don't I listen to good advice like that? I had a racer tell me to get a 250 and really learn to ride. I bought an SV with that in mind but quickly traded it for an R6.
QuoteWith a 1000, you will be terrified to twist the throttle because it will want to kill you...
I think the same thing can happen on todays hyper 600's too! Don't ask why I would think such a thing...
OK, I agree the 954 is WAY too much to learn on. I already hi-sided it at a track day. That was dumb. It makes WAY too much HP and the throttle is twitchy. HOWEVER, the RC51 is much more benign and a pleasure to ride. Only one track day on it so far, but I was really impressed. Why will I go faster on a 600 with about the same HP as the RC51? The 51 is smooth and pulls all the way to the limiter -- the 600 is no good down low, and needs to be "on the pipe" as we used to say in the old days. But, I am taking your advice and have a new R6 on order. It will be my goal to keep track of lap times on both bikes to see if the concensus of opinion is correct. Oh, yeah and to get a race license too, so I won't be limited in classes. The 600 class does look like a "meatgrinder" class though to me too. Would'nt you rather have another guy to pass in the Unlimited classes?
That was kinda my thinking too. The FI on the newer bikes is so smooth that throttle transitions are much easier. Not like the on/off of yesteryear's bikes. I believe they are referring to the excess speeds, gyroscopic forces and wieght which will cause you to brake harder and trail brake more.
I too am looking around for a 600 and have already made contact with a few owners. I'm going to be pissed if I turn faster lap times on my liter bike.
I thought it would be better to ride against faster riders in smaller classes(15-20 riders) like the GT and open SS than against 40-50 riders of all ability levels. It may be different where you are but that's about the size of the classes around here.
Kinda like playing golf, tennis,basketball etc. Playing against someone better than you will make you a better player.
I'm with you FastBoy. I share the same opinions. I may sell the 954, BUT NEVER the 51. I can ride it hard (for me) and not feel stressed out after the session. I, too, will be pissed if my 51 beats the R6. And all the 600 classes I've seen look like a motocross race.
I can understand the I4 liter bike thing, my 954 dynoed at 145.8 hp and it WAS a handful on the turns, but I guess only time will tell. I'll meet you here next Christmas and we'll see what results are!
Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year
Sounds good! See ya this time next year.
Happy Holidays and good luck this season.
You guys won't be disappointed with a modern 600.
As far as lap times go you probably will be faster on your liter bike compared to the first time out on the 600. Remember you'll try to ride the 600 like the 1K. Give it a few laps or days and you'll be faster on the 600. You will learn all about entry, mid-corner and exit speed. As everyone has said you will become a better rider faster.
Just remember that you MAY be faster on the 1000 at the larger tracks like Road America, Brainerd, and Daytona. Tracks like these do have sections where horsepower is truely valuable, but cornering is still an issue at these tracks too. After learning how to race a smaller displacement bike, I would imagine if your faster on the 1000 at any track (as a begining racer) that it will probably be by such a small amount that it wouldn't warrent the extra work required to do it.
When I started racing I made the mistake of pre-entering way ahead of time for my first race and ended up getting pole position. I quickly found out how slow I was. After that I always intentionally gridded in the last row for the reason that you get alot of passing experience that way and you don't have to be worried about getting run over in turn one. I did this for my entire first year. The other nice thing was that the only people that passed me were the leaders as they lapped me toward the end of the race. I personally would much rather have the better racers passing me than the lower skilled ones (just race overly predictable lines when you get the blue flag - if you don't know, that is the flag warning you of a faster rider coming up behind you).
Just swallow the old pride and start in the back, it will help you to concentrate on your lines and get experience in passing. This way your moving forward in the finishing order instead of backwards. Wait till you feel comfortable before moving forward on the starting grid.
Oh ya, the people I know call the 600 class the "helicopter class" cause that is the class it seems the helicopter always has to be called in for! (not funny, but fitting). Also the class a number of the experts go to turn one at BHF to watch the start of and applaud if all the amatuers make it thru.
I have only raced at, and can only speak of experience from Gateway.
Rob Fuzner started on a 750 last spring, and I believe won pretty much every race he entered there starting at mid-summer.
He always ran just ahead of the 600's, but when he finally got in the mix w/ fast-Expert Jeff Selbert (750) he tucked his head down, & started riding it like a 750, and went a bunch faster and stayed in Selberts draft the whole race. 8)
He was BLAZING fast for an AM...keeping up w/ a fast Ex.
Jason Philipi started on a 1000, and won a race his first weekend out there....might even have been his 1st race!
Me and Mike Chacharra were following him on the 1st lap, he ran waaaay wide in 7 and me and Mike flew right by him as he was trying to save it.
Jason came by us like a friggin' JET going into the very next corner....AND WON IT!! ;D 8)
Jason was always upfront and in the mix w/ that 1K.
These are two excellent amateurs who started on big bikes, and went fast right away.
But also, I am not disgreeing w/ anything anyone else has said here either. Theres two side to it, though.
You sound like you have a lot of confidence and experience w/ the bigger hp bikes. I say do what you feel comfortable doing.
I started on a six, and from the beginning wish I had bought a 750.
If you push it in the corners, and have good throttle control, and ride smart, you should be upfront in no time.
A good rider is gonna go fast on a 750/1000, if he can stay on it.
And I don't think a smaller bike in the Am-class is any safer either.
Sure, you can lose the rear a lot easier on a 750/1K.
But you have to push the front, and corner harder on a 600, increasing the chance of get-offs respectively.
I know 600 guys who seem like they are wrecking at least once a weekend.
Who's to say which is more crash prone w/ a good rider.
But like everyone else said, on a faster bike you won't have to corner as fast to be in the mix. If you do show up on a 600 you'll be forced to ride the wheels off of it.
You'll probably become a 'better' rider, faster, on a six.
just my 2-cents
Good luck! :)
QuoteI had more fun than a 5 legged man in a butt kicking contest...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Oh man. Christmas is over. Can we PLEASE go racing now!
Okay, now I'm really confused. There is a lot of good valid points discussed here. What to do? What to do?
QuoteOh ya, the people I know call the 600 class the "helicopter class" cause that is the class it seems the helicopter always has to be called in for! (not funny, but fitting).
Ummm, trying to make me feel better about the 600 class? How'd you know I always wanted to ride in a helicopter? Oh.....you mean like that!? Yikes!
QuoteBut you have to push the front, and corner harder on a 600, increasing the chance of get-offs respectively.
I know 600 guys who seem like they are wrecking at least once a weekend.
Hadn't looked at it that way before. So do they use Bell Jet Rangers, Huey UH-1 or Sikorskis? :-/
Get an SV....
You qualify for the lightweight classes, but it still has enough torque to pull your rear end around. My husband ran a 600 his first year racing but now runs and SV.
There are enough SV's out there that you should be able to pick one up rather reasonable. Also, if you don't super bike them, they are pretty much bullet proof.
Dawn :)
Quote;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Oh man. Christmas is over. Can we PLEASE go racing now!
Stop it!
I am suffering from race withdrawal they way it is.....
Planning the races that we are going to attend - making a list for the motor home - trying to squirrel away as much money as we can....
Is is April yet? :-[
Dawn
QuoteThat was kinda my thinking too. The FI on the newer bikes is so smooth that throttle transitions are much easier. Not like the on/off of yesteryear's bikes. I believe they are referring to the excess speeds, gyroscopic forces and wieght which will cause you to brake harder and trail brake more.
I too am looking around for a 600 and have already made contact with a few owners. I'm going to be pissed if I turn faster lap times on my liter bike.
I thought it would be better to ride against faster riders in smaller classes(15-20 riders) like the GT and open SS than against 40-50 riders of all ability levels. It may be different where you are but that's about the size of the classes around here.
Kinda like playing golf, tennis,basketball etc. Playing against someone better than you will make you a better player.
Here is my experience after 5 race weekends. I started on a salvage title 600 F4i. Not even close to the best platform to build a race bike on, but the price was right and the local Honda dealer is very supportive of club racers. This fact alone influenced my decision more than any other aspect. The beauty of riding a 600 is you can race it in a LOT of races. If you don't want to race against the kids in the 600 classes-DON'T, race up a class or 2 untill you are comfortable with the bigger grids!!! As far as "faster" riders riding big bikes-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! There will be just as many bad riders riding big bikes as 600's(percentage wise anyway) and in my experience first year racers on liter bikes are some of the WORST riders on the grids. People with big egos tend to crash higher. The #1 most important aspect of learning to race is track time and you don't get quality race experience sitting in the pits on your pretty G1K Superbike. The top finishers in CCS Pacific and Southwest in the Ameteur Unlimited races were NOT on Liter bikes. I can only think of 1 or two times this season that a guy on a 600 didn't win the ULGP race and that was when Kane started racing a 750 toward the end of the year. The BEST and FASTEST amateurs are on SV's and 600's(at least in the west). One of my friends started racing last year on an SV after riding a Gixxer 1000 at track. Granted, he improved greatly, but on a stock motored SV he was lapping 3 seconds a lap faster at Thunderhill than he was the season before on his G1K. I personally improved my lap times over 14 seconds a lap going from an RC51 to my F4i. If you plan on never wrecking your bike and having it PRISTINE at the end of a years racing, you are in the wrong sport. You will wreck your bike, 95 out of 100 guys do. I only know 1 superfast guy that doesn't have the occasional get off(he has wrecked 2 times in 6 seasons 1 time he got taken out and the other time he had a mechanical on a borrowed bike), most fast guys will crash a few times a year if they are lucky and some fast guys crash every weekend. You really need to buy a bike that you can ride a LOT and a liter bike with Superbike parts is not one of them. And about getting protested, the size of your grid will limit the amount of people that can protest you but I would imagine if you were beating someone regularly in SS you would get protested with an Ohlins front end.
Hey Speedie...
Agree with what you said...except both of your example people are running 600's this year!
True dat, someone who is fast will be fast regardless....
As for being protested, if you finish in the top 3 in ULSS you will be sent to tech immediately following the race. No competitor has to lodge an official protest, the Ohlins would be kind of hard to miss!
maybe I have hit my head too many times, but wasn't it just a couple years back that you couldn't race an unlimited bike if you were an amateur? This would take care of all these questions. It would be interesting to see if the number of crashes rose or decreased after this rule was taken away.
QuoteBut you have to push the front, and corner harder on a 600, increasing the chance of get-offs respectively.
??? Doesn't make sense if you are pushing the 750-1k to the limits. ::)
I checked and there is still an AM UL SS class which I would qualify for. Not to cheat or anything because my bike already has R&T forks but I don't think I will be going to post race tech (podium finish) any time soon.
I see what your saying about racing up with a 600. I hadn't thought of that option since I was focused on my liter bike. I like that better than racing AM SS every weekend. Some tracks could probably handle it better than others but it would be nice to stay away from the carnage from time to time. I'm okay going down. I've done that on the street. I just don't want 30 riders running over me after I dump it in T1 because someone forgot to turn and used me as an auxillary brake system.
QuoteSo do they use Bell Jet Rangers, Huey UH-1 or Sikorskis? :-/
Depends on what they need to get your carcass airborne. How much do you weigh?
Well of course they call it the "helicopter" class. That's where all the experts send the newbies to race. It only makes sense it is going to be the scene of the most carnage.
What's the HP/Weight ratio of an SV compared to an RC51? I don't think the RC comes near the HP of the 954/Gix 1K. Hey FastBoy, maybe we should start on Pocketbikes and work our way up? :o
Here's an interesting idea; start the same thread on WERA and see what the answers are there! Oooohhh, sorry, I said a bad word!
Happy New Year
The only place a liter bike for an amateur is going to make them any faster is Road America and Daytona. Even Road America is questionable with a good 600 rider. Monte Nichols was turning 2:20's on a 107 hp R6. Few CCS racers can do that on any size bike. At Blackhawk and other race tracks the bigger the bike the more work it is to get around the track. Larry Denning can smoke anybody on his R6 against any size bike.
A 600 or SV will require much less effort to ride fast. At blackhawk, you may lose 3 bike lengths from turn 7 to turn 1 compared to a 750. A lot of guys make that up by the end of turn 1! Regardless of the weight comparisons, a 1000 will be harder to turn because of the larger reciprocating mass of the crankshaft. That's why magnesium wheels make a difference over stock on turn in for faster riders.
Example: I know people who started racing on 750's. They don't progress as fast as other riders because they rely on the hp too much to get them around people. Thus a person who starts on a smaller bike, learns how to ring the bikes neck out without wadding themselves up as much.
When it comes time to move up to a big bike, they instantly go fast because they have the mechanics of racing down.
QuoteHere's an interesting idea; start the same thread on WERA and see what the answers are there!
WERA makes it an easy argument. Nothing bigger than a 750 class bike for novice/amatuer. Even then everyone will say the same thing, start with a 600 or smaller.
OK, OK I'm convinced. I'll learn and race the R6 and save the RC51 for trackdays. Case closed!
A TZ250 is the perfect bike for both beginners and seasoned veterans. ::)
QuoteA TZ250 is the perfect bike for both beginners and seasoned veterans. ::)
hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh, hah, hah, hah, heh, heh, hah, hah, he, he, heh...
Oh, OK Brian...
QuoteHey Speedie...Agree with what you said...except both of your example people are running 600's this year!
Rob's probably switching to a 600, cause he is tired of smoking all of us on our 600's ;D
You yourself have said you catch him in the corners, only to have him run away as soon as the bikes go vertical. Same w/ me (sometimes, anyway).
I think Rob went as fast as he needed to go to beat all of us, not as fast as he and that 750 could go. He used a little bit more caution in the corners, and punched it on the straights...and that was what was required to win.
It wasn't until he caught site of Selbert that Rob started pushing himself.
He's a phenomenal rider, and that came through when he was on Selberts azz 8) at a pace none of us in the 600 amateur class could have stayed with.
I am speculating here, but I suspect Rob is switching to a 600 because all his friends are on them, he want's to prove he can win on equal machinery, and can race more classes.
NOT that he can go faster on it.
As far as Jason switching, he weighs a solid 230...so I ain't gonna speculate nothing w/ that boy ;D You'll have to ask him direct :)
Again, me and you both know a very good rider who wadded his 600 up what? 20 times in the last 2 years :D No names needed ;D
I know your just clowning me, and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, I'm just belching it for the guys who say an amateur can't roll on a 750 :)
Quote??? Doesn't make sense if you are pushing the 750-1k to the limits. ::)
Point is, you don't HAVE to push a 750 in the corners to go as fast as the 600's in the amateur class. If you do push it, your gone....bye bye :D imho.
I've ridden all the gsxr's 600, 750, 1k. All were set up correctly, and they all handled the same to me. Both the 750 and 1k felt more laterally rigid cause of the inverted forks/beefed swingarms.
I liked the 750 the best. Handled/felt the same and had a much better, smoother, more usable motor w/ tons more hp. To me, it seemed easier to go faster on it.
But like I said before, you will be forced to become a better rider if you start on a 600. So by that standpoint, that would be the bike to get. I am just disagreeing w/ the people who say the big bikes don't handle, or you'l go faster on a smaller bike. Not always. If you can ride, you'll be upfront on any of the bikes!
I better add this before everyone gets bent w/ me.
An inexperienced rider on a 600 is gonna go slow.
An inexperienced rider on a 1000 is gonna go to the ER.
If you have good throttle control though...
Okay, so now I need to find an R7...great they are only about $40,000! Okay, that's it! I'm done! I'm bringin' my Boss Hoss and all of ya are done fur! Let's see ya pass me now! Uh huh!
Anyway, I'm getting a 600 and will likely ride up a class so as to stay out of the malay in the AM SS classes. I want to have fun and ride all I can not get maimed on my first race on T1.
I can see it now, I'll be telling the grandchildren, "Yeah my career started and ended all in the span of 4/10 of a mile. But it was a hell of ride for all 7 seconds! Then the helicopter ride and several surgeries later, I was released. Now would you be a good boy and feed me some more baby food. My arms don't work so well and after they removed half my guts I just can't eat solids."
Hmmm, hey Oldman, is there a pocketbike class? I'll race ya to the grid!
Quote....Anyway, I'm getting a 600 and will likely ride up a class so as to stay out of the malay in the AM SS classes
Most all the guys from the meatgrinder will also be racing up classes... ;D
Hey,
I just picked up on this topic but I put a big spank on liter bikes this year with a six.
This has actually turned out to be a really good thread. I've picked up on ideas I hadn't hought of and have sent a few friends over here to check this out as well since we are all starting our racing careers here in a few months.
Thanks for all the feedback! Look forward to kicking all yalls a...er, I mean look forward to seeing you at the track! Yeh, that's what I meant.
Peace.
When I started (1987) it was on a GSXR750. It was my first bike ever, and it was my beginning platform for racing. Third weekend out, GSXR1100 Superbike in endurance racing. But that same weekend, I bought an RZ350 to race against the EX500's. I learned more about the fine arts/i] of motorcycle road racing. Getting in a little faster, a better line, this that and the other thing.
The current crop of 1000's are great. They actually handle, when the 1000's of years gone by were not so good. The GSXR1000 will actually hook up and go where the old stuff will leave looking in the weeds for your boots.
But, regardless, to ride a 1000 near it's potential, it requires a gentle hand, great set up, and some patience.
What are you learning? A 600 can practically mimic the same times at most tracks. RA, Daytona,...not reality. At many tracks guys that have both bikes, a 1000 and a 600, will only go a fraction of a second faster on the 1000.
As for a threashold level of traction someone stated....
There are places where you can get away with whacking a 600 wide open. You don't get that chance on the 1000. The power can completely overwhelm anything the chassis does to keep in "traction".
As for having to slide a 600 around....
I really don't do it myself. I like it hooked up. And when I did 13's on my 600 at Blackhawk, I didn't like the way it handled, but it wasn't sliding around.
If the threshold of traction at a corner is 50MPH for a bike at a 40 degree lean angle, it's easier to get closer to exactly what is reasonable on a 600. You'll have to try and haul down the 1000. Maybe you end up at 48MPH the whole time. But you'll have to turn the throttle a bit more to make it up on the exit. Again, back to finding your boots out in the weeds. On the 600, you can just be closer to doing it at the "edge". If you go over, it will probably come back. The 1000....
But the 1000 is fun.
QuoteOn the 600, you can just be closer to doing it at the "edge". If you go over, it will probably come back. The 1000....
But the 1000 is fun.
That's right, that's right! Just dangle that carrot out there, then just when I'm reaching for it, YA TAKE IT AWAY!
I know, I know...it's evil. But what to do.
I was going to do a 1000 for 2003. Will do a 600 again. Money for me. And the new 600 I'm getting impresses me this year. I'm excited.
But wouldn't a 1000 be FUN!
(Bad rider!!! Bad!) :)
Doug, take the RC out and have fun with it! Get your license, do a few weekends, and see what you like.
If you want to try something different, go with an SV but stay away from the R6.
Okay, why not an R6? That was what I was about to make an offer on! Damn you!
QuoteOkay, why not an R6? That was what I was about to make an offer on! Damn you!
FastBoy, you're already an inline liter type, so I'm sure you'll love the R6. Doug has an RC and people are trying to convince him not to run it. I think he'll go out and have fun on it, I doubt he's looking to clinch any championships or break any track records his first year. He probably just wants to go out and compete on a bike he loves riding. I think he could do just that on his RC.
If he wants to get a lighter, less powered bike, then the SV is a much more logical choice for him than the R6.
Doug,
Another guy to talk to is G2G (here and on rogue). He's raced both. In fact, I traded him an SV for the RC I have now.
Thanks, Jack -- I made the decision last night to CANCEL the R6 and buy an SV. I think it will be a better match and I can transfer skills to the RC much better.
Sorry FastBoy, this is confusing the hell out of me too. SV - R6 -SV......
"And the audience says...... SV" What was that dumb game show?
The SV will give me more classes to run in, lower HP to learn corner speed, and a V-Twin to prime me for the RC. G2G has other things on his mind right now -- I'll find an SV, take the school, race at NFMP in Feb and ride the 51 at Rogue II at VIR in April. That sounds like a plan. Thanks for everyone's help .... now we gotta' get FastBoy in the groove. I'm thinking he's already fast, so a 600 is OK for him... me, I'm just an old guy out to have fun without other old people trying to kill me with cages.
Thanks, but I'm more in the groove than you know. I've already got a full race prepped liter bike to get into trouble with and now I'm about to make an offer on an R6. What the hell! It's only money! It's just good to know that I won't be the only one who's broke!
Peace. Happy New Year!
QuoteThanks, Jack -- ...I'll find an SV, take the school, race at NFMP in Feb and ride the 51 at Rogue II at VIR in April. That sounds like a plan.
Very cool! Looking forward to riding with you at VIR!
So, Oldguy. What did you end up with? I picked up a mint '99 R6 for cheap. Start racing next month. First track day of the year in a couple of weeks. Good luck!
QuoteHow does he get comfortable on a 600 then? Every 600 I've ridden makes me feel like I'm sitting "on top" of it instead of "in" it. It feels awkward and that doesn't encourage me to ride aggresively.
You can't imagine how opposite your thinking will be at the track. Akwardness becomes dominance over the bike in corners and on the brakes. Sitting "in" the bike is the worst feeling in the world at the track. No control. An R6 will be nice. Do the suspension first, and install new, race compound tires. Other than the mods you need to get through tech, worry about the other stuff later.
I didn't have time to read all of the thread, but one thing worth mentioning is that a 600 is a lot easier on tires. I can't imagine running a 1k for a weekend without needing new tires(assuming you are going pretty fast).
I personally sold my GSXR1000 to buy a 600 for the track. I was concerned that I wouldn't like it on the streets... Well, I've only ridden it about 400 miles on the streets in over a year, I prefer to do ALL of my riding on the track now and I'll never go back to a 'big' bike.
For tire wear, the SV is the only way. I can't get much out of a 600 rear tire. If you're going fast on a 600, you're gonna trash the rear. The SV won't. The 1000 might tear is up too, but with all that power, when it spools up real hard, it only heats the surface of the tire, not all the way through to the carcass. It will still trash it, don't get me wrong, but a 600 ridden correctly doesn't have great tire wear.
fastboy..daisey says listen to super dave, he's
been racing since ..well...a long time. he's old!!!
and still alive. i started racing last season on the
01 gixxer 6 and it was mind blowing how little i knew
and how much i learned that fisrt weekend. the one
aspect of racing bikes regardless of what kind or size
is conditioning. example: my 3rd lap ever on bhf
i'm following ex 55 (that's props to PJ.) going into turn 6, as he is walking away from me, my mind told
my rt hand to squeeze the brk lever but my hand
said no...too much lactic acid build-up can't stop must ride into grass so i did. and that is when i realised that this racing deal is not about corvettes vs
chevettes, it's about going at your own pace and listening to your body,bike and people like Dave
Rosno. anyway, just thawt i'd put in my $.02
hey Dave if you read this, Vision Sports kicks ass...
it will be mine....oh yes it will all be mine........
am # 030(yeah right)
benj87
OLD?! I thought I was the median age for CCS racers....LOL!
But I have been around for a while...I think I've done everything twice.
what i mean,Dave, is that you have longevity. yer
not still dizzy are you ? ;) ??? :D
benj.
LOL! Longevity!
Dizzy... Not sure. Not as bad as during the summer. MRI now might reveal something, but the doctor is not calling me back. (Don't get me on a tangent about doctors...)
dave,
e-me your dr.'s name and facility where it was done
and i will get the goods for ye!
xray6674@aol.com
Dr. Lil thorny.
QuoteVery cool! Looking forward to riding with you at VIR!
I just bought a used tank for my RC. I'm gettin' ready for VIR too!!! ;D
QuoteI just bought a used tank for my RC. I'm gettin' ready for VIR too!!! ;D
I might not make VIR :'(
Just my quick .02 cuz I was feeling left out of this long arse thread. I was told by everybody to buy an SV or FZR 400, but decided on what I love...a Ducati. I raced for the first time 2/9 and had a blast. Where am I going with this? Race what you feel comfortable on (as long as it's not a liter bike...lol) and have fun. Try not to worry too much about your lap times in practice, either. Mine came down 3 seconds in the first two laps of the first race and were down 7-9 seconds as the day went on...you WILL go faster in the race without trying. Have fun and good luck!!!