With all that is being changed in the infrastructure
of CCS/ASRA.
I feel there are three things that the origination may
wish to address.
First, with the change in the points structure, the
amateur to expert point level (750) should be
addressed. The new point structure would require a
racer to finish 4th or better in 3 racer per weekend
in a 11 weekend series. A 500 limit would require a
10th average under the same conditions (in my opinion
a fair point). A 375 limit would put the average at
about 13th place. (calculations not based off of twin
sprints or double point weekends)
Second, with the change from FUSA to ASRA, I would
like to suggest a class change to allow Amateurs to
participate in the series. I suggest taking the
Amateur Unlimited GP (run trophy only on ASRA
weekends) and label it as, "The Breeders Cup". An
additional thought, offer trophy "Cups", not the
standard plaques for this race. As it stands, amateurs
can only run in Thunderbike, leaving out most of the
Amateur from the ASRA weekends.
And last, it is my opinion, that all newly licensed
racers should have to corner work one full day prior
to racing for their first time.
Christian "Xian" Meekma
#13
QuoteAnd last, it is my opinion, that all newly licensed
racers should have to corner work one full day prior
to racing for their first time.
Christian "Xian" Meekma
#13
ohh i like that idea
QuoteAnd last, it is my opinion, that all newly licensed
racers should have to corner work one full day prior
to racing for their first time.
Christian "Xian" Meekma
#13
I agree 100%. School on Saturday, cornerwork Sunday, race on the next weekend.
Willow Springs Motorcycle Club (WSMC), its a requirement that before you can get your EX card not AM you must corner work for one day. It can be broken up into 2 sessions mornings one wkend or afternoons the next that
way you can still race.
QuoteWillow Springs Motorcycle Club (WSMC), its a requirement that before you can get your EX card not AM you must corner work for one day. It can be broken up into 2 sessions mornings one wkend or afternoons the next that
way you can still race.
Or make it so they have to work a full day to get their license and also have to work one day (like your example where they could split it) to go expert.
I don't think a person should have to cornerwork to get a race license. If I want to cornerwork, I'll sign up for it.
What, are all you people doing Auto-X's on the weekends or something?
If you want to race, sign up to race.
If you want to cornerwork sign up to cornerwork.
Track time....
Track Time .....
Track Time.........
On second though maybe we should have them clean the bathrooms at blackhawk too...
QuoteIf you want to race, sign up to race.
If you want to cornerwork sign up to cornerwork.
Track time....
Track Time .....
Track Time.........
On second though maybe we should have them clean the bathrooms at blackhawk too...
+1....
What is the reasoning for people wanting racers to cornerwork?
QuoteI don't think a person should have to cornerwork to get a race license. If I want to cornerwork, I'll sign up for it.
What, are all you people doing Auto-X's on the weekends or something?
I've raced, done track days, and worked corners. I absolutely think that you should be required to work at least 1/2 day on the corners to obtain a race license.
Why?
Because it gives a racer a perspective they would otherwise miss. Cornerworkers experience the same adrelaline rushes that a racers do. They must manage track safety at their location. They are in communication with race control, and learn how overall safety is managed first hand. This experience is invaluable to understanding the sport at another level required for participation.
QuoteBecause it gives a racer a perspective they would otherwise miss. Cornerworkers experience the same adrelaline rushes that a racers do. They must manage track safety at their location. They are in communication with race control, and learn how overall safety is managed first hand. This experience is invaluable to understanding the sport at another level required for participation.
While I appreciate what cornerworkers do. I don't feel that I have to understand their job in order to be a safe or better racer.
Getting their (cornerworkers) perspective may be interesting and useful to some, but I think invaluable may be too strong a word.
You get to see the fast lines thru the corners you work! That's a good reason.
Oh, and you get a good perspective of the riders, and can almost tell who is going to crash. IMHO
IMO having racers cornerwork to learn how to race better/safer would be like having a lifeguard drown to learn CPR....one doesn't help the other.
Why would anyone protest working a 1/2 day as corner worker? Give me one really good reason.
I've heard more than the occasional racer b!tch about the job done by the race director, race control, corner workers, and other staff and personel. Granted, many have an appreciation for those in the support positions, however, as a corner worker, you get to see from the inside out what goes on. This is beyond what you'll hear on a scanner, or from second hand reports from those who are in the midst of any particular situation.
Having that basic comprehension can and will change the responses of some to frustrating situations that occur. Others may get nothing out of it. This is only my opinion, but I believe that there is something positive and useful to be gained by spending a few hours as a CW, and that will be beneficial to every racer who takes the time to do it. I see no harm coming from requiring each newly licenced racer to have some CWing experience.
QuoteWhy would anyone protest working a 1/2 day as corner worker? Give me one really good reason.
Because I don't pay my money to cornerwork. I pay it to race.
I'm not saying I protest the idea...I just dont see it helping a racer be safer/better. if you want it as a requirment prior to getting the license to pass the class I'm all for that....that would be helpful...mainly for the flags and overall rules of the track so to speak.
might help keep the stations filled too!
Personally I dont see a huge connection...
From an overall club perspective yes... from a racer only perspective, if the racer wants to "see the fast lines" or appreciate the job the CW's do that should be up to them.
CW's IMO are at the top of the list of people to thank each and every weekend for sure! I just personally dont think it should be "required", perhaps recommended???
QuoteIMO having racers cornerwork to learn how to race better/safer would be like having a lifeguard drown to learn CPR....one doesn't help the other.
Exactly!Cornerworking takes skill to. I've been in races that should have been stopped or different flags should have been waved but they continued until someone went down. I blame that on a lack of experience. That could have also been blamed on a lack of interest.
Until you can give me proof that this is a guaranteed benefit to help racers then forget it. I pay money to race and take track days and schools. Maybe we all should also spend a day in the kitchen (this would allow us to see what the front runners eat) and a day working the front gate. Maybe cutting the lawn would give us a cardio bennefit and allow us the invaluable experience of a weekly track walk. ???
If you can cornerwork and give back then great ;D but I don't need inexperienced, unmotivated people having the responsibility of our safety. >:(
<dream sequence>I still remember watching Mladin cornerwork the season before he captured the #1 plate. </dream sequence> ::)
QuoteI'm not saying I protest the idea...I just dont see it helping a racer be safer/better. if you want it as a requirment prior to getting the license to pass the class I'm all for that....that would be helpful...mainly for the flags and overall rules of the track so to speak.
They cover the flags and the overall rules of the track in class (and usually at every riders meeting).
QuoteExactly!
Cornerworking takes skill to. I've been in races that should have been stopped or different flags should have been waved but they continued until someone went down. I blame that on a lack of experience. That could have also been blamed on a lack of interest.
Until you can give me proof that this is a guaranteed benefit to help racers then forget it. I pay money to race and take track days and schools. Maybe we all should also spend a day in the kitchen (this would allow us to see what the front runners eat) and a day working the front gate. Maybe cutting the lawn would give us a cardio bennefit and allow us the invaluable experience of a weekly track walk. ???
If you can cornerwork and give back then great ;D but I don't inexperienced, unmotivated people having the responsibility of our safety. >:(
<dream sequence>I still remember watching Mladin cornerwork the season before he captured the #1 plate. </dream sequence> ::)
Very good points Mike.
Does everyone that works a corner know CPR? If not, they
should! Talk about something that would help a racer!
I'd rather see some of my fees go towards better trained cornerworkers.
Heck, I'd even pay several dollars more per race for that!
We have medical personnel that are within 2 minutes of you at just about every track. A corner worker knowing CPR won't make a bit of differece since most of the issues are trauma and not heart attacks.
QuoteExactly!
Cornerworking takes skill to. I've been in races that should have been stopped or different flags should have been waved but they continued until someone went down. I blame that on a lack of experience. That could have also been blamed on a lack of interest.
In cornerworkers' defense, I
think (correction gladly accepted) that throwing flags is a race control decision, usually not left up to individual cornerworker.
QuoteThey cover the flags and the overall rules of the track in class (and usually at every riders meeting).
yup and there are always questions at every riders meeting about the flags/start procedure...and reminders the next day...and I'm glad they do it - keeps it fresh in everyone's mind
but here's a thought...what are the requirments/training to cornerwork? we take a class and have to have a license to race...we pay for that...is there anything like that to cornerwork? or can you just show up and say you want to help and they give you a headset and put you out on the track with someone and learn it?
Wow...
I'm freaking glad my OPINION is such a topic.
There are MORE then one reason why I believe this is a good idea for all new racers.
Once again, this is my opinion. If you think trashing my opinion will help... Best of luck on that.
However if you care to discuss it, lets hear your thoughts.
1. Learning the Flags and track rules. There are more then a handful of people racing for more then a few years that don't understand the freaking flags. Or even the Blend line. I don't know if a anyone here knows how many violation happen every weekend. One day on a corner might just give you alittle insight.
2. Understanding of what is the cornerworks job and not his job. Case and point, its not the corner workers job to pick up your bike after you left it on the track... Or give you a better understanding to communicate to the cornerworker if your injured/not injured. I could make a list here... But I wont, you should get the idea.
3. To offer a differant prospective of what is actually going on, on the track during a race.
4. Try to scare the stupid out of people, before they hit the track to race for the first time.
XIII
For the record, Xian has raced and cornerworked. So have I. It's a good idea to cornerwork for a day or two. You'll see racing in a different light. You'll also discover that racers wear helmets and body armor, but cornerworkers don't. Try running out into traffic to retrieve a fallen rider, and then you'll understand why workers get so pissed when you disreguard their flags.
Of course, some racers think that cornerworking is beneath them....
Just so everybody will know, when I made the connection to WSMC requiring all AM to corner work before they can go EX their are not really working a corner they are there to observe and help if required by the worker. They also
get the choice of what corner they want to work.
I did it and have no regrets. I did get to see the omega (T4a&b)in a difference light. Learned what lines worked and one that did not work so well. BTW, no access to the infield @ WSMC so the vantage point was worth it.. I dont really know why WSMC makes you do it, call it a right of passage I guess !
I agree with Xian_13 and K3 Chris Onwiler.
I've been cornerworking with Mid-Atlantic Roadracing Club since 1996. I started racing with CCS in 1997. These days I'm racing CCS and only cornerworking WERA events.
Particularly with Summit Point, everything I learned about that track while cornerworking made everything much easier when I finally got on the track. There is so much to know about the various surfaces at Summit.
Eventually I knew damn well I could go faster than some of the guys I was watching (in middleweight), I had a GS500 at the time. ;D So the next year ('97) I did the MARRC race school and then had to wait a month for the first CCS weekend.
I did really well too and much of that had to do with the track knowledge I had gained from cornerworking. You learn a lot about what not to do when working turn 1. :o
Beliefs like these are exactly why racers should have some cornerworking experience:
QuoteIn cornerworkers' defense, I think (correction gladly accepted) that throwing flags is a race control decision, usually not left up to individual cornerworker.
QuoteDoes everyone that works a corner know CPR? If not, they should! Talk about something that would help a racer! I'd rather see some of my fees go towards better trained cornerworkers.
With MARRC, it is basically the corner captain that makes the call to stop a race. The captain informs race control of the situation and if severe enough requests that the race be stopped. In MARRC, we are never second guessed and race control themself will call for all stations to show the red flag. The ambulance flag had some set guidelines. All other flags are displayed at the discretion of any worker as soon as they deem it necessary.
As far as CPR, I'm sure most of us do know CPR. But that is not our job, at least in MARRC. From what I've seen there are always three EMS units at the track, at least one being ALS. They are the ones trained and getting paid to deal with severe trauma, not us. I call for the ambulance and do what I can to comfort and calm the racer, be it give him some shade or a drink of water.
Who knows what cornerworker priorities are?
1. Yourself
2. Fellow cornerworkers
3. Racers still racing
4. Racers that have crashed
5. The bike
I don't have to, but I've done quite a bit to get racers back on track after crashing. Like retrieving their bike from a not-so-safe location or whipping out some tools.
And what's with this line of thought that you have to pay to cornerwork? Most places pay the workers. An exception to this is MARRC. We get free entry to the track, awesome home-cooked meals by EmerWil and crew and the best vantage point next to actually racing. That's it and we don't care. Like the club's motto "dedicated to the advancement of motorcycle roadracing".
It really seems like a lot of racers don't know what's happening between the track and the fences holding back the spectators.
Quote1. Learning the Flags and track rules. There are more then a handful of people racing for more then a few years that don't understand the freaking flags. Or even the Blend line. I don't know if a anyone here knows how many violation happen every weekend.
Quite a number Xian. When I work T1 @ BHF theres usually an average of 3-4 blend line violations in teh first practice sessions. Most of which are carrying white plates. Also theres been a rash of riders who IGNORE the debris waveoff flag and ride around the track to pit in instead of getting the F off the track. We know they seen the flag since they acknowledged it when we waved it at them. Next time someone bitches about us taking a half an hour to clean an oil line left by someone who was leaking oil through 4+ corners, dont whine to us.
Quote2. Case and point, its not the corner workers job to pick up your bike after you left it on the track...
Exactly. I didnt throw the bike down. If you pop up and start walking away, you better believe you will get yelled at to come get you bike. If yopu are injured, fine thats no big deal to pick it up then, but dont walk away because you are pissed and expect someone else to pick it up for you. Last time I checked, this isnt PROFESSIONAL RACING. Not all if the corner workers can pick a bike up by themselves. Help them.
I think a number of the responses here are missing the point. The suggestion is not that it would be a requirement for every racer - just those that are new license holders.
The strongly worded objections seem to be coming from those that have years and dozens of races under their belts. You have every right to believe that working a corner for a day wouldn't benefit you.
But think back to your first race weekend. How many of you remember exactly what was going through your head. My guess is that you probably were closer to being scared sh1tle$$ than anything else. You had doubts about screwing up your start - either killing your bike as the flag dropped or pulling a 12 o'clock high! Doubts if you would still be on 2 wheels after the first turn. You get the picture. You had a million and one things that you were worried about.
Would cornerworking for a day take away all of this anxiety? Nope! You may still lose your focus at the start. You may still forget to put gas in the tank. Nothing teaches you more than actually getting out there and doing it - experience - on the job training!
And I really think a number of you are looking at this from your 'experienced perspective.' You've been there already and made all the newby mistakes and learned from them.
Even if spending the day on a corner would ease a new racers anxiety by 10% - that's good! Even if they only learn one thing that will keep them and the racers around them safer - that's good. The goal is to get a new racer over that first couple of humps and bumps quickly and safely.
The analogy relating the lifeguard to drowning holds no merit. No more logical than saying a helmet and leathers should be optional to race. 'I'm not planning on crashing!' 'If I go down I'm only hurting myself!' 'It should be my choice!' Yet I challenge even one of you who would consider for 1 second, going out on the race track without a helmet and leathers. Who are you hurting? Not the guy on the bike next to you! It's MY decision!
Try and remember what was going through your head your first race weekend. That's who would benefit from this!
Quoteyup and there are always questions at every riders meeting about the flags/start procedure...and reminders the next day...and I'm glad they do it - keeps it fresh in everyone's mind
Yes, they do... every riders meeting...
Yes, people ignore the flags all the time.
Read Rob940's post.
Quotebut here's a thought...what are the requirments/training to cornerwork? we take a class and have to have a license to race...we pay for that...is there anything like that to cornerwork? or can you just show up and say you want to help and they give you a headset and put you out on the track with someone and learn it?
In the Midwest, Corner workers have "on the Job training".
Basicly, you work a corner for one day as your training (you don't get paid). After that, you can cornerwork at any time.
Another one of the thoughts, as why I like this idea, is...
If for what ever reason, there are NOT enough corner workers, the safety director can pull racers... that have some training.
Before you scream No, I would not like to be forced to work a corner over racing.... However, if it meant no one raced, that would be a differant story.
Everyone is making good points. I can see the merit in having new riders work corners. I did it when I first got my license with the CRA as it is their policy. Frankly though, I was just Pi$$ed off that I was MADE to do this and I didn't get the positive benefit that have been discussed here. I have more of an open mind now, but I went there to race. I go to the track now to race. I would assume that many other new racers that show up to compete will have a similar reaction to the one I had. They may see the light later, but noone likes being made to do something that they frankly don't like to do.
Cornerworker training in the Midwest is a little more involved than just "working a corner for the first day without pay". You spend your morning first learning about flags, signaling and other protocol, then there is a written test... and you spend the rest of the day assigned to a corner station with one of the more (most?) experienced corner marshalls. You don't just show up, take a headset and go.
And here too, while a cornerworker may request that the race/practice be stopped, Race Control has the final word on when the red flag is thrown.
Well guys this will be my first year racing and i will be getting my license for the first time. So if this was a rule that would mean i will be spending most of my first weekend on a corner. now i can see this being a good idea to spend an afternoon on a corner but not my first weekend, you see my first race will be at Road America and i realy dont want to drive 10 hours to sit on a corner all day. I have been racing kart for over 14 years now and i dont think the experance will be all that much help to me. also im going to be racing to win Championships and if all goes well the #1 plate so i really cant afford to throw away a whole day.
just the opinion of someone who would be affected my this
if it is the case that i have to work a corner i will fly somewhere that has a race before RA and corner there for a day (that will suck)
QuoteFrankly though, I was just Pi$$ed off that I was MADE to do this and I didn't get the positive benefit that have been discussed here.
This is the crux of the problem. I've seen suggestions in the past that riders be made to cornerwork as part of their advancement requirement or as the penalty for certain infractions, such as passing on a waving yellow. I think the US Marshalls would rather not have people who don't want to be out there as cornerworkers. There might also be legal issues as far as exposing an unwilling person to danger.
That's a good one, Johnny.
I don't see corner working as a requirment for car racing, MX, dirt track, etc.
Although the idea has merits, someone that doesn't learn flags in one way may still not learn them in another venue.
Yes, cornerworking will give a different perspective.
Seeing a different line is fine. Understanding the needs of executing that line can often only be seen from the seat of a motorcycle. Often, executing a line goes back to how braking is executed also. Again, might be easier to see that from the seat.
I cannot say that riders that have had prior cornerworking experience have had better results in racing from a lap time or safety stand point.
I don't see where requiring a newly licensed racer will necessarily reduce flag or blend line violations or any rider safety issues. Some times, there are specific riders that have these problems over and over.
It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the rider to reconize, learn, and execute.
Additionally, if a new racer shows up with a fussy FZR400 with flatslides, do you risk that riders opportunity to focus on his equipment and his riding?
If I had it my way, I'd require licensing to be done prior to the event in a longer format. I've taught Saturday licensing programs, and I don't find them personally satisfying as there is too much to cover ON THE TRACX.
The Saturday Licensing Clinic is just that, a clinic. It is not there to teach you how to ride or race, it there to verify that you understand the procedures and etiquette required to be allowed to race.
Road racing is the only motorcycle sport that has this confirmation of basic knowledge before you start racing. Drag racing doesn't, Motocross doesn't. Track Days don't.
If you want to learn to ride, go take a longer class with any of the schools, but if you've done all that, we as the sanctioning body have a responsibility to the other riders to affirm that you have the basic knowledge need to be on the track with others at this level. That's why we offer these clinics and review schools before they are granted accreditation to allow their student to pass this requirement.
Twenty years ago I was part of a group that required you cornerwork before you got your license and my observation was they did it as quick as they could and didn't take the time to really learn. As someone else said it, they felt like they were being punished and some riders actually went to other clubs to escape that requirement.
There is no good answer to this dilemma.
And to be quite honest, I've never seen a race cancelled due to lack of corner workers...
Granted, there aren't 10 or 15 sitting around doing nothing, but there always seems to be enough to get by.
QuoteThere is no good answer to this dilemma.
I'm not sure I understand the dilemma. In my mind there isn't one.
Someone thinks it's a good idea to require racers to cornerwork before getting their license and some don't.
As stated earlier, there appears to be enough cornerworkers to cover the track so... where's the problem?
QuoteI'm not sure I understand the dilemma. In my mind there isn't one.
Someone thinks it's a good idea to require racers to cornerwork before getting their license and some don't.
As stated earlier, there appears to be enough cornerworkers to cover the track so... where's the problem?
You might have the numbers, but not necessarily the desired experience out there. I've worked at vintage events where we're cajoling racers to cough up their wives and girlfriends to give us enough coverage out on the track.
You can never have too many cornerworkers.These people put up with long hours with no breaks, crappy weather, and little pay. They mostly go through all of this for the love of the sport and the camaraderie of the group. Needless to say, when they feel disrespected out there, (Riders passing on a waving yellow, upset riders being abusive) they sometimes wish that those who do so could be put in their shoes for a day or two, just to get an idea of what they go through out there.
Well, first on the topic of corner working. I too started my racing at WSMC and drove over 2000 miles round trip from Idaho to race as often as I could. I never made expert because I couldn't justify the time and expense of going all the way down there to spend a day corner working... although I had the points, I never made expert. This requirement to cornerwork is a different burden for different people. Any way, food for thought...
Which brings me to my next comment, I too noticed the gigantic difference in the requirement for novices to make expert. Yes, I'm still a novice and I can't believe they made it that much harder!!!! Was this on purpose?? I'm curious to see what they say. ???
QuoteWhich brings me to my next comment, I too noticed the gigantic difference in the requirement for novices to make expert. Yes, I'm still a novice and I can't believe they made it that much harder!!!! Was this on purpose?? I'm curious to see what they say. ???
I'm glad it's a bit tougher to get a white plate. At blackhawk there are first year racers turning quick 16 and 17 laps while some of the white plate experts ::) on 600 and 750s are turning 18 - 21 laps! When you do a 1-20 lap and some is doing 13's that is an unsafe situation.
QuoteWhich brings me to my next comment, I too noticed the gigantic difference in the requirement for novices to make expert. Yes, I'm still a novice and I can't believe they made it that much harder!!!! Was this on purpose?? I'm curious to see what they say. ???
The average finish position and number of races required for the bump have remained nearly the same as 05. There was a change a few years ago that made the bump harder (old points systme from 500 to 750) because the number of valid protests by the riders in that 500-700 point range.
You can always (beginiing of season or even on a race weekend speak to your race director or the office inbetween races) petition to be advanced to expert status.
Erik,
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but let me provide an example:
Using last years point system if I ran the 2006 Florida series (12 races) and did 2 races per weekend, I would have to average a 19th place finish to get the 750 points to advance to expert (actually this would get you 768 pts).
Using this years points system, if I did the same series and did 2 races per weekend, I would have to average an 8th place finish to get the required 400 pts (actually it would be 408 pts)
Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that is a big difference. Now I certainly don't want to argue that slow riders should get white plates etc... if the intent was to cut back on advancing riders than this should do the trick. But if this was not the intent, I think things will be a lot harder this year for novices to advance.
I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, I'm just happy to show up and race!
QuoteI'm glad it's a bit tougher to get a white plate. At blackhawk there are first year racers turning quick 16 and 17 laps while some of the white plate experts ::) on 600 and 750s are turning 18 - 21 laps! When you do a 1-20 lap and some is doing 13's that is an unsafe situation.
An expert is just a rider that has the experience that allows them to race as an expert. It doesn't mean that you have a "lap time" requirement.
AMA Pro has a lap time requirement, but in this example http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/raceres/rr/cres.asp?cls=ls&snct=p7240&type=q&year=2005 the riders that made the field for the start still had a fifteen second spread.
There are first year racers that can do 13's at Blackhawk also.
QuoteAn expert is just a rider that has the experience that allows them to race as an expert. It doesn't mean that you have a "lap time" requirement.
There are first year racers that can do 13's at Blackhawk also.
More and more riders are doing track days first. When they get more comfortable with their machines at speed, they might decide to try their hand at racing.
A lot of times, these racers are accused of cherry picking. Mongo once pointed out to the whiners that their track day experience had these riders turning quick lap times right off the bat. However, they still have to get a little racecraft under their belts before they can step up to the next level. Not everybody is able to attend track days. Loudon only has them on weekdays. As a result, there is wide disparity in lap times, even among the rookies.
Coming from a Motocross background, I think that it would be a good idea for new racers to have a set amount of time CW before they are allowed to race their third weekend(could be made up during the first two weekends).I had to corner work at one point or another because at most tracks we did't have more then five people willing to help & at some tracks we didn't have that.I just think it gives you as a new rider a small lesson in the fact that everyone has to work together to have a day go smoothly at the track...
QuoteAn expert is just a rider that has the experience that allows them to race as an expert. It doesn't mean that you have a "lap time" requirement.
AMA Pro has a lap time requirement, but in this example http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/raceres/rr/cres.asp?cls=ls&snct=p7240&type=q&year=2005 the riders that made the field for the start still had a fifteen second spread.
There are first year racers that can do 13's at Blackhawk also.
Example: I spent last year riding an SV650 in the novice group turning Low 1:17's at Black hawk,This was my first Expert season, Riding a 600 I was able to get down to my low of a high 1:12. At any level you will have people in the same classification running at different paces. Just look at the differance between Tommy hadens qualifying time and mine, ten seconds and change.......That's big - real big......Just like at any local Road Race, Motocross had a big gap between the front runners in the "A" Expert class and the guys in the rest of the race......
Just my two cents......
QuoteThere are first year racers that can do 13's at Blackhawk also.
I must have missed them! ::) First year at blackhawk - with many years racing something or somewhere else?
QuoteI must have missed them! ::) First year at blackhawk - with many years racing something or somewhere else?
2003 with a rider we worked with. Never raced a motorcycle. Never did a track day before we abused him at our school. It happens.
Quote2003 with a rider we worked with. Never raced a motorcycle. Never did a track day before we abused him at our school. It happens.
You forgot to mention he got off the track at the emergency exit in turn 5 and raced over to the tower! ::)
Quote2003 with a rider we worked with. Never raced a motorcycle. Never did a track day before we abused him at our school. It happens.
Dave,
You are smoking some good sh!t............
Sorry, it wasn't you.
QuoteSorry, it wasn't you.
Who was it?
give him some time, he will make someone up. ;D
Quotegive him some time, he will make someone up. ;D
LMAO!!!
;D
I guess I don't find it totally impossible that a 1st year amateur could run a 13. However, I would question them being able to sustain that pace, and improve upon it during the season.
Reason being, a first year amateur has NO wisdom (for this exercise defined as applied knowledge) when it comes to roadracing.
I've seen a lot of new people go fast for a lap. I've seen a lot of new people go fast for several laps. I've seen those same new people crash repeatedly until they give up and go back to bowling or whatever the hell they did before they thought they could race. If you ask those new people what it takes to go fast, they will either say they don't know, or give a ridiculous answer (dude! just pin it in every turn with no brakes).
There's a level of wisdom that it takes to sustain a fast pace (13's at BHF) which a new racer doesn't have.
While nothing is impossible, the probability of a 1st year amateur, coming onto the track with no racing experience and to be able to safely and consistently run 13's at BHF is extremely slim at best.
Quotegive him some time, he will make someone up. ;D
Ouch! :D
QuoteYou forgot to mention he got off the track at the emergency exit in turn 5 and raced over to the tower! ::)
;D A first year guy NEVER RACED ANY TYPE OF BIKE OR EVEN A TRACK DAY?!?!??????!?!!! That would be the only way they'd turn a 13 is if they cut across the pits!! LOL!
Way to sell your school Dave. ::)
QuoteI guess I don't find it totally impossible that a 1st year amateur could run a 13. - - - - - - -- --
While nothing is impossible, the probability of a 1st year amateur, coming onto the track with no racing experience and to be able to safely and consistently run 13's at BHF is extremely slim at best.
A first year am - maybe nothing is impossible. A first time out on the track guy??!!!??!
Come on Dave - Give us some proof or shut up. :-X Prove it. Prove it and shut me up! :D
I bet Dave is talking about Benji Thorton. He started racing in April of 2003 but it took him until September (with a LOT of races and a few crashes under his belt) to reach
A 13 at Blackhawk.
Here's a quote from Benji from September 8th, 2003
QuoteHey BRG,
dude what was i thinking!!!! not to take anything from everyone else who has helped me out this year,
but props to Baker for making me fast on Sun.
I said " Brian, i got front end chatter and i've tried everything" He walks over to my bike (fitted with
a Traxxion Dynamics front-end) and he turned
this and screwed that.....oh....my.....chatter gone,
i'm gone!!!!! sorry fellas i had to do it....the bike felt so good after that. not the fastest, but got my
personal best lap time the very next race.
1:13.4..... and didn't even break a sweat.
I'm glad we have people like Brian Baker, Dave Rosno, Tom Mason...trackside to help people like me(uneducated). for all amateurs and experts out there trying to find that extra second or 2, utilize
these people, makes racing so much more fun!!!!
Benji. #30
Dawn
Ooops, my mistake. Here's a post from Dave from September 13, 2003...
QuoteOn a more gentle note...
Benji Thorton won the Championship Cup Series Blackhawk Farms Championship.
I think that makes four out of the last five amateur champions as Visionsports' riders: Mike McCay, Steve Kessenich, Mike Chachere, & Benji Thorton.
Benji started motorcycle road racing in August of 2002 on his private Suzuki.
I'm happy to say that the guys at Visionsports helped a bit, but, still, Benji had to show up, learn whole lot about fixing bikes, and he had to execute.
Nice Job, Benji.
Time for you to list your sponsors...
QuoteOoops, my mistake. Here's a post from Dave from September 13, 2003...
If I'm wrong than so be but it say right in Dave's quoted box "Benji started motorcycle road racing in August of 2002 on his private Suzuki." that you said Dave wrote on September 13, 2003. That's a year and that's great but it aint a first time out.
I'm fine calling this a draw because Dave is what he is - "Super" at racing, and I hate to argue.
And if it is Benji, I'll quote myself...
QuoteI
I've seen a lot of new people go fast for a lap. I've seen a lot of new people go fast for several laps. I've seen those same new people crash repeatedly until they give up and go back to bowling or whatever the hell they did before they thought they could race. If you ask those new people what it takes to go fast, they will either say they don't know, or give a ridiculous answer (dude! just pin it in every turn with no brakes).
This is no hack on the man (Benji), as he's a darned fast guy. But he did fall down more than most...
Or maybe I'm just so slow that I stay upright?
I am the guy that helped with his suspension. ;D
Just because someone posted it on the BBS it is true? When I raced there were guys that talked sh!t all year about doing 13, 12, 11, 10's and I never saw them, talk is one thing doing it is another.
(This has nothing to do with Benj.)
Baker
QuoteI am the guy that helped with his suspension. ;D
When I raced there were guys that talked sh!t all year about doing 13, 12, 11, 10's
Baker
Look in the mirror Baker! There`s one now!! ;D
This thread is really evolving. Where was Benji this year? I expected big things from him.
Some AM's from this year that must have been in the 13's or close: Eric Broekholder (28), Nate Doebert (88), Mat Losen (266), and JT Stone (720-he went expert mid-year). I don't know what kind of previous experience they had, and they did crash alot. Dobert's ride at the Sept ACC was unbelievable.
Jeffy - host a picture for me so I can get rid of that stupid X box over there on the left. I'll email it to you & email me back a link OK?
QuoteLook in the mirror Baker! There`s one now!! ;D
+1
QuoteA first year am - maybe nothing is impossible. A first time out on the track guy??!!!??!
Come on Dave - Give us some proof or shut up. :-X Prove it. Prove it and shut me up! :D
Yeah, I'm bad, with all the exact details, but here's how it went.
Said rider had not been on a track, and had not raced a motorcycle. First session out in school, he fell down almost immediately. Straighten him out, etc., etc. Pretty much sorted by the end of the day. Still ragged at the edges.
Can't pre enter without a license. So, in August of 2002, rider started from the back and as able to catch the front group. Highest finish was a third, I believe, I know there was a fifth...might have actually moved into third.
The point is that a rider can show up and be a front running amateur in a season, running times of a front running competitive amateur.
It doesn't happen to everyone. On the other side, not every new amateur starts out at the race track finishing last either.
I know that Benji did times in the 13's in 2003. I know expert 600 times were into the 11's.
QuoteI've seen a lot of new people go fast for a lap. I've seen a lot of new people go fast for several laps. I've seen those same new people crash repeatedly until they give up and go back to bowling or whatever the hell they did before they thought they could race. If you ask those new people what it takes to go fast, they will either say they don't know, or give a ridiculous answer (dude! just pin it in every turn with no brakes).
There are old fast guys that can't necessarily tell someone how to go fast. They know how they do it, but they might not be able to convert that to something that is translateable.
This is where data aquisition has been invaluable. Some riders, a small number, have very specific abilities that allow them to do things at a different level. Getting infomation from that kind of a rider is really, really hard. "What's the bike doing"" "I don't know..."
Yeah, some riders explore the envolpe differently than others. Some do put it together. Some don't crash much and go back to bowling too. What's the point?
QuoteIf I'm wrong than so be but it say right in Dave's quoted box "Benji started motorcycle road racing in August of 2002 on his private Suzuki." that you said Dave wrote on September 13, 2003. That's a year and that's great but it aint a first time out.
I'm fine calling this a draw because Dave is what he is - "Super" at racing, and I hate to argue.
Don't change the topic...
Competitive the first year out...Yes, immedately. Did the one race in August, then prepared for 2003.
Yes, Benji crashed, but Benji won races alot. I don't have any archival information, someone else can find that.
13 the first time out? No. Wouldn't have expected that at the old Blackhawk in 2002. 13's in 2003. Sure. Fastest time, "personal best", was a 13.4...usually you lead up to your fastest time. How many riders start doing 13's after only doing 19's all the time? It wasn't
a thirteen, but that
one was his personal best of 2003 as an amateur in September 2003. I guess that's thirteen months...but we weren't talking about turning 13's the first time out...but turning fast amateur times the first time out. It can be done.
QuoteYeah, I'm bad, with all the exact details, but here's how it went.
Said rider had not been on a track, and had not raced a motorcycle. First session out in school, he fell down almost immediately. Straighten him out, etc., etc. Pretty much sorted by the end of the day. Still ragged at the edges.
Can't pre enter without a license. So, in August of 2002, rider started from the back and as able to catch the front group. Highest finish was a third, I believe, I know there was a fifth...might have actually moved into third.
The point is that a rider can show up and be a front running amateur in a season, running times of a front running competitive amateur.
It doesn't happen to everyone. On the other side, not every new amateur starts out at the race track finishing last either.
I know that Benji did times in the 13's in 2003. I know expert 600 times were into the 11's.
Come on Dave.... Spill, who are you referring to?
;)
QuoteJeffy - host a picture for me so I can get rid of that stupid X box over there on the left. I'll email it to you & email me back a link OK?
I think all the guys you named were running 13's.
Yeah, email me the pic. jeff@cbr600rr.com
It's not a 1:13 at BHF, but Stumpy got into the 1:14s in July 2003, with a 1:14.10. This was his first year ever on the track. No track days, nothing. I don't think he got into the 1:12s and 1:13s until 2004.
Back to the cornerworker thing...love, love, love all the cornerworkers to death, but, if my husband was on the track, I would be SCARED if I knew corners were manned by people who were forced to work just so they could race. Of course, the experience is good, but not everyone is cut out for that responsibility.
Heather
Blackhawk, Wegman Weekend 2004, 113.2 best. Ran 6 of 8 laps in the 13's, and I'm an idiot....ask anyone. First year amateur......took Daves school too, in the rain even. ;D
I think alot of guys reading this may get let down at Blackhawk this year. The times posted here (most) were right after the track was repaved. I`m not saying the track is junk, but there are definitely some spots that are important to fast times that deteriorated slowly throughout 2005. It`s only going to be worse after winter! :(
Tommy, stop making pre-excuses for being slow.
QuoteTommy, stop making pre-excuses for being slow.
;D
You all want to know who the said rider is? I'll give you a hint.
DYNOMITE!
Quote..
Back to the cornerworker thing...love, love, love all the cornerworkers to death, but, if my husband was on the track, I would be SCARED if I knew corners were manned by people who were forced to work just so they could race. Of course, the experience is good, but not everyone is cut out for that responsibility.
Heather
This all amazes me.
The differance of opinion...
But even more so, the way things are twisted to create negitivity...
Its like saying... You are "Forced" to take a school to get your licence.
XIII
QuoteIts like saying... You are "Forced" to take a school to get your licence.
You are... It's not an option, it's not a choice. If you want to get your license, you
MUST attend a school.
The difference is that being
forced to attend a school doesn't have the immediate and direct ability to affect the safety/well-being of yourself/others in the same manner as being
forced to cornerwork.
QuoteIt's not a 1:13 at BHF, but Stumpy got into the 1:14s in July 2003, with a 1:14.10. This was his first year ever on the track. No track days, nothing.
Another example...Greg was able to be competitive, turning competitive amateur times, his first year.
QuoteBlackhawk, Wegman Weekend 2004, 113.2 best. Ran 6 of 8 laps in the 13's, and I'm an idiot....ask anyone. First year amateur......took Daves school too, in the rain even. ;D
Hmm, can competitive front running lap times be turned without trackdays and lots of racing experience? Yes.
QuoteYou are... It's not an option, it's not a choice. If you want to get your license, you MUST attend a school.
The difference is that being forced to attend a school doesn't have the immediate and direct ability to affect the safety/well-being of yourself/others in the same manner as being forced to cornerwork.
Agreed.
QuoteHmm, can competitive front running lap times be turned without trackdays and lots of racing experience? Yes.
Johnson, how many times did you crash? (a TON)
Are you still racing? (not really)
Are you as fast now or faster than you were then? (probably not)
I rest my case...
This isn't a bash on Johnson, it's just an example of how I see people go through the process of "being fast before their time" (for lack of better words).
I've seen guys that didn't crash get slower.
What's the point?
Money is the point, often. Money not spent well. Money that was needed for something else.
Motivation too. You can't buy that either.
QuoteJohnson, how many times did you crash? (a TON)
Are you still racing? (not really)
Are you as fast now or faster than you were then? (probably not)
I rest my case...
This isn't a bash on Johnson, it's just an example of how I see people go through the process of "being fast before their time" (for lack of better words).
Jeffy.........
question 1
six times.......28 race wins in 14 weekends. 3 midwest championships 2 national championships homestead Miami. how many times for you? I saw your sparks flyin more than once.
2. yes....4 titanium screws and a plate at RA at the snow race, did set back the budget, and my physical conditioning, but you will be seeing me again next season. (my back ;))
3 faster? no.....as fast?, pretty close. I raced one race at blackhawk coming off my injury....ran mid 14's, and thats with one practice day after 3 months of couch racing. I will progress to 12's and 11's. That is my goal.
In order to find the limits of suspension setup and traction, sometimes you must exceed them. The secret is to become good enough to find the limit and stay barely within it.
No hard feelings Jeff....... :-* Naturally I see things differently. You don't really think you have it all figured out yet do you? There's still more to come. ;D ;D ;D
Oh yeah BTW,
remember when i crashed in 5A and lost part of my butt cheek, and killed my leathers? You loaned you leathers to me the next day......and I won all four races in them the next day. Those were some lucky leathers. I still laugh at the pictures of me racing in those. Check it out www.rostrumracing.com look in the photo gallery.
I really appreciate all the help with parts/leathers that season......It's those things that make racing so sweet......whether your winning races, or sliding on your head.
Thanks buddy ;)
Yeah Ryan, it was cool to be able to swap parts and share the times.
I don't have all the answers (never claimed to), and I certainly don't knock your success because it's more than I have achieved in a season. I just wonder where you'd be right now with times/success if you spent your first year running about 15-20% less than you did. You ran balls out and won a lot, but took a beating in the process.
My thought is that if a person can back off just a touch and use that space to learn, it might be better in the long run.
Just my goofy concepts.
I look forward to seeing you at the banquet and back on the track next year. I'll do my best to keep you behind me. :P
QuoteI just wonder where you'd be right now with times/success if you spent your first year running about 15-20% less than you did. You ran balls out and won a lot, but took a beating in the process.
Individuals are not equal. No supersport rules for that. One rider's physical abilities can exceed anothers ability to do the same thing. Then motivation, etc. Did Ryan go slower than he thought he could at times? I think so. Some things are learned under duress while others are learned in calm moments.
Has intentially going slower allowed riders to substantially recognize things necessary to go faster? Maybe.
But if you think you're gonna do 13's, doing 16's all day won't tell you how you or your bike will react at the 13 pace, let alone the pace necessary to do 14's. Often, you can't fix if you don't know something is broken.
QuoteBut if you think you're gonna do 13's, doing 16's all day won't tell you how you or your bike will react at the 13 pace, let alone the pace necessary to do 14's. Often, you can't fix if you don't know something is broken.
I understand that Dave. My point (for the thousandth time) is that riding at 100% leaves 0% margin for error, and greatly eliminates the ability to ingest/understand/learn/process information.
Should a person NOT ride at 100%? No, I'm not saying that as a whole. There is a time and a place to ride right at the edge of the envelope. A new rider (which is what we were talking about) pushing to 100%, 100% of the time is foolish IMHO.
"you can't fix it if you don't know it's broken"
I agree. However, if you can't recongnize what's broken due to information overload, and sheer inexperience in understanding what is happening, you're not going to fix any root problems either.
Very well said Jeff.
;)
QuoteI understand that Dave. My point (for the thousandth time) is that riding at 100% leaves 0% margin for error, and greatly eliminates the ability to ingest/understand/learn/process information.
Should a person NOT ride at 100%? No, I'm not saying that as a whole. There is a time and a place to ride right at the edge of the envelope. A new rider (which is what we were talking about) pushing to 100%, 100% of the time is foolish IMHO.
"you can't fix it if you don't know it's broken"
I agree. However, if you can't recongnize what's broken due to information overload, and sheer inexperience in understanding what is happening, you're not going to fix any root problems either.
I KNOW!!!! We can FORCE all first year riders that Super Dave teaches to do 13`s at blackhawk to cornerwork! THERE! Problem solved!!! Everybody happy?! ;D ;D
Done deal. Thanks for clearing that up Tommy.
I think you both have very valid points....there are times to go all out and and times to relax. As i progressed my first year, I found a pace that i could ride comfortably at (mid to high 13's). It was only when i got greedy and pushed for a 12 when things got a bit sketchy.
The only time i really ran at my absolute limit was at race of champions, where out of four races i tucked the front in two and won the other two. I really wasn't there to do anything but win.
Anyway...this is a dead topic at this point, but good food for thought thanks guys.
Banquet should be a blast! can't wait to see you all there! ;D
QuoteI understand that Dave. My point (for the thousandth time) is that riding at 100% leaves 0% margin for error, and greatly eliminates the ability to ingest/understand/learn/process information.
Should a person NOT ride at 100%? No, I'm not saying that as a whole. There is a time and a place to ride right at the edge of the envelope. A new rider (which is what we were talking about) pushing to 100%, 100% of the time is foolish IMHO.
The trick here is that riders that are not riding at 100% if
their ability still crash.
Should we modify supersport rule to only allow riding of 95% of one's ability?
Honestly, this is still racing. If ones expectations are otherwise, there are track days provided by various race tracks and organizations all over the country. Riders there don't ride at 100%, and they still crash.
Hey Dave....
Jeff said it was his opinion and he was done with this issue. You have your opinion on the subject and neither of you are going to change each other's mind. Can't you just accept it and let it go?
Dawn
I'm sorry, I thought Jeff was replying to Heather, Ryan, and I.
QuoteShould we modify supersport rule to only allow riding of 95% of one's ability?
This is the second time you've brought up supersport rules. I'm not sure why you're going there when I've neither said or implied anything about supersport rules and it's not germane to this particular conversation.
QuoteHonestly, this is still racing. If ones expectations are otherwise, there are track days provided by various race tracks and organizations all over the country. Riders there don't ride at 100%, and they still crash.
I understand that Dave.
Just engaging in conversation. Sharing my point of view, trying to understand the point of view of others.
I think I've said all I can. Thanks for the fun.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forumspile.com%2FWhy-Click_this_thread.jpg&hash=ed714da84c12f9045eb65860e0cf2423495b28a8)
QuoteAnd last, it is my opinion, that all newly licensed
racers should have to corner work one full day prior
to racing for their first time.
Christian "Xian" Meekma
#13
Remember this? The suggestion that started the war? It was a good suggestion, but some people apparently feel corner working to be beneath them. So how about we consider something different. If you violate the blend line twice, or if you ride a full lap dumping oil after every corner station has given you a debris flag waveoff, or you get track managment after you for pitbike or pit speed infractions, or you ignore/don't see the black flag, or you get busted doing wheelies or you just generally behave like Queen of the racetrack for whom rules do not apply, then you get to cornerwork for a day before you can race again. Why not? You've displayed a complete disreguard for safety, so perhaps a day spent working with the safety crew might wake you up.
The point of having a novice racer spend some time as a cornerworker is to show them the big picture. Spend some time on a corner, and suddenly you grasp that racing isn't all about you. Some people NEED to learn that. "My race! My! injury! My torn up bike! Me me me! Forcing me to spend a day cornerworking puts a hardship on ME!" What? Is this a video game? You're not alone out there, buddy. That swirl of motion around you is not pixels and megabytes, it's all flesh, blood, and metal. If certian people actually knew the hardship and danger that cornerworkers face to make it possible for them to safely race, maybe they wouldn't be such a bunch of whiny, superior Nancy boys! :P
QuoteRemember this? The suggestion that started the war? It was a good suggestion, but some people apparently feel corner working to be beneath them. So how about we consider something different. If you violate the blend line twice, or if you ride a full lap dumping oil after every corner station has given you a debris flag waveoff, or you get track managment after you for pitbike or pit speed infractions, or you ignore/don't see the black flag, or you get busted doing wheelies or you just generally behave like Queen of the racetrack for whom rules do not apply, then you get to cornerwork for a day before you can race again. Why not? You've displayed a complete disreguard for safety, so perhaps a day spent working with the safety crew might wake you up.
The point of having a novice racer spend some time as a cornerworker is to show them the big picture. Spend some time on a corner, and suddenly you grasp that racing isn't all about you. Some people NEED to learn that. "My race! My! injury! My torn up bike! Me me me! Forcing me to spend a day cornerworking puts a hardship on ME!" What? Is this a video game? You're not alone out there, buddy. That swirl of motion around you is not pixels and megabytes, it's all flesh, blood, and metal. If certian people actually knew the hardship and danger that cornerworkers face to make it possible for them to safely race, maybe they wouldn't be such a bunch of whiny, superior Nancy boys! :P
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wera.com%2Fgraphics%2Fsmilies%2Fapplause.gif&hash=ba6bb2e6fc5456d37c377155bd04c6151c0b1447)(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wera.com%2Fgraphics%2Fsmilies%2Fapplause.gif&hash=ba6bb2e6fc5456d37c377155bd04c6151c0b1447)
QuoteRemember this? The suggestion that started the war? It was a good suggestion, but some people apparently feel corner working to be beneath them. So how about we consider something different. If you violate the blend line twice, or if you ride a full lap dumping oil after every corner station has given you a debris flag waveoff, or you get track managment after you for pitbike or pit speed infractions, or you ignore/don't see the black flag, or you get bustedoing wheelies or you just generally behave like Queen of the racetrack for whom rules do not apply, then you get to cornerwork for a day before you can race again. Why not? You've displayed a complete disreguard for safety, so perhaps a day spent working with the safety crew might wake you up.
The point of having a novice racer spend some time as a cornerworker is to show them the big picture. Spend some time on a corner, and suddenly you grasp that racing isn't all about you. Some people NEED to learn that. "My race! My! injury! My torn up bike! Me me me! Forcing me to spend a day cornerworking puts a hardship on ME!" What? Is this a video game? You're not alone out there, buddy. That swirl of motion around you is not pixels and megabytes, it's all flesh, blood, and metal. If certian people actually knew the hardship and danger that cornerworkers face to make it possible for them to safely race, maybe they wouldn't be such a bunch of whiny, superior Nancy boys! :P
Have I told you that I love you, man? (I know I still can't have your Bud Light) ;) ;D
By the way, with writing skills like that, you should be a journalist or novelist or something...
Just a thought. ;D
QuoteRemember this? The suggestion that started the war? It was a good suggestion, but some people apparently feel corner working to be beneath them. So how about we consider something different. If you violate the blend line twice, or if you ride a full lap dumping oil after every corner station has given you a debris flag waveoff, or you get track managment after you for pitbike or pit speed infractions, or you ignore/don't see the black flag, or you get busted doing wheelies or you just generally behave like Queen of the racetrack for whom rules do not apply, then you get to cornerwork for a day before you can race again. Why not? You've displayed a complete disreguard for safety, so perhaps a day spent working with the safety crew might wake you up.
The point of having a novice racer spend some time as a cornerworker is to show them the big picture. Spend some time on a corner, and suddenly you grasp that racing isn't all about you. Some people NEED to learn that. "My race! My! injury! My torn up bike! Me me me! Forcing me to spend a day cornerworking puts a hardship on ME!" What? Is this a video game? You're not alone out there, buddy. That swirl of motion around you is not pixels and megabytes, it's all flesh, blood, and metal. If certian people actually knew the hardship and danger that cornerworkers face to make it possible for them to safely race, maybe they wouldn't be such a bunch of whiny, superior Nancy boys! :P
While I understand why there are people that agree with my opinion... Yet I dont understand why there are some that hate this opinion with a passion.
And I love the idea of actually punishing people for their error (notice I didn't say mistakes... cuz the blend line didn't jump out of no where).
But, I must say one last thing before I am done with this tread...
I wrote my opinion as.. Work the corner... When I think I should have written observe a corner from the corner works point of view.
XIII
Do you really want to put your life in the hands of someone who has NO desire to be doing what they are doing?
I rely on the corner workers to get me safely around any scenario on the track which could endanger me. Likewise, I rely on them to get others safely around ME when I become that "scenario on the track".
Put someone out there who does not want to be there and the results can be deadly.
People there to RACE, should be punished by not allowing them to RACE. That hits them where it hurts...
Just my $.02 on the original subject (since I don't even know if I replied to the original thread).
Don't get me wrong, it's great in concept, but if you look at the downsides of it, from my perspective, they greatly outweigh the potential benefit.
Benefits:
1 - More cornerworkers available
2 - Punishment
3 - Possibility for someone to learn something
Risks:
1 - Severe annoyance/irritation/hindrance to the REAL cornerworkers.
2 - Lackluster performance leading to increased hazards during events.
3 - Headache of official enforcement/management of this program.