Another new thread not to jack the SS thread.
One thing that has frustrated me quite a bit in the past is the inconsistency in the punishment doled out by CCS for certain offenses.
Case in point, people hitting the track on pit bikes last year after being warned TWICE not to do it. What happened? Everybody lost pit bikes and the violators continued to race. From my perspective, they should have been fined $500 each and forced to leave. That night.
Last year, there was also a "fine" for crossing the blend line which was "donate $25 to the wegman". For me, that seemed absurd! It was taunting people. It was funny...
Personally, I would like to see a more consistent and STIFFER punishment system implemented in CCS. This would eliminate some of the B.S. that we see (people sneaking in with no wristband), and keep all of us safer.
Here's some of my recommendations.
Blend line incident.
First offense $25 fine
Second offense $100 fine
3rd offense $500 fine, lose your license
Pit bike incident (kids on pitbikes, stunting, speeding).
First offense $50 fine
Second offense $100 fine, you leave for the weekend with no refunds
Wristband violation.
You're escorted out of the track, fined $250 and refused re-entry that weekend.
Track violation (i.e., riding pitbike on track, driving car on track or bike on track after hours)
$500 fine and license pulled for the season
Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but when there is no punishment, there is no reason for some people to adhere to the rules. Personally, I follow the rules, and it frustrates me when I'm punished (or the safety of myself and my family is compromised) for someone else's alcohol-fueled idiocy.
+1
I agree 1000%
This year was my first season racing, and I'd only spectated at one race prior to racing myself.
I had zero problem understanding and following the rules.
If I had no problem, NO ONE should find this that difficult. If they do, then they need to figure it out quick or find another hobby.
Stiff and consistently enforced penalties for infractions should help IMO.
heh heh, you said "stiff"
;D
QuoteAnother new thread not to jack the SS thread.
One thing that has frustrated me quite a bit in the past is the inconsistency in the punishment doled out by CCS for certain offenses.
Case in point, people hitting the track on pit bikes last year after being warned TWICE not to do it. What happened? Everybody lost pit bikes and the violators continued to race. From my perspective, they should have been fined $500 each and forced to leave. That night.
Last year, there was also a "fine" for crossing the blend line which was "donate $25 to the wegman". For me, that seemed absurd! It was taunting people. It was funny...
Personally, I would like to see a more consistent and STIFFER punishment system implemented in CCS. This would eliminate some of the B.S. that we see (people sneaking in with no wristband), and keep all of us safer.
Here's some of my recommendations.
Blend line incident.
First offense $25 fine
Second offense $100 fine
3rd offense $500 fine, lose your license
Pit bike incident (kids on pitbikes, stunting, speeding).
First offense $50 fine
Second offense $100 fine, you leave for the weekend with no refunds
Wristband violation.
You're escorted out of the track, fined $250 and refused re-entry that weekend.
Track violation (i.e., riding pitbike on track, driving car on track or bike on track after hours)
$500 fine and license pulled for the season
Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but when there is no punishment, there is no reason for some people to adhere to the rules. Personally, I follow the rules, and it frustrates me when I'm punished (or the safety of myself and my family is compromised) for someone else's alcohol-fueled idiocy.
I agree. I assume you are referring to the people at BHF almost hitting someone walking on the track at night while on their pitbikes?
Did CCS know who they were? If so, I agree. Punish them, not the rest of us!
i agree 100% as well. Rules need to be enforced or else "some" people will not follow them. I am one of the guys who follows the rules -and it really tics me off when I see someone breaking them over and over and not getting punished. Why even have rules. They should be called "recomendations" instead of rules if they are not being enforced. just my 2cents
QuoteI agree. I assume you are referring to the people at BHF almost hitting someone walking on the track at night while on their pitbikes?
Did CCS know who they were? If so, I agree. Punish them, not the rest of us!
It was about mid-way through the year. I don't think they came close to hitting anyone, but they hit the track and started racing their pit bikes. Multiple times...
CCS knew who some of them were, but not all of them. To my knowledge, there was no punishment other than EVERYONE losing pitbikes...
These were people who KNEW BETTER and relied on the fact that they were long-standing racers and would probably get away with it.
They should have been publically executed IMHO.
I get to explain to my kids at EVERY weekend that they CAN'T ride the pit bikes because it's against the rules... Why do I have to explain it at every weekend? Because bar none, there will be kids riding pit bikes before/during/after races.
The pit bike problem was handled by the track. The track management was very angry about the whole thing, but the individuals that created the problem were unbelievibly responsible and up front in the whole thing to the authorities that were angry.
Other issues...yeah, it should be simple. You can get hurt doing this stuff, so pentalties should have a reasonable mount of "hurt"...
That's why I always say "fine!" when a problem is brought up during riders meetings.
If we continue to allow an aura of lax compiiance with issues of safety and reasonable action by riders...we'll be rewarded with injuries and other problems.
QuoteI get to explain to my kids at EVERY weekend that they CAN'T ride the pit bikes because it's against the rules... Why do I have to explain it at every weekend? Because bar none, there will be kids riding pit bikes before/during/after races.
Speaking about BHF specifically. I don't think kids should be riding pit bikes around the crowded pit area, but I have no problem with them riding them out in the grass by the back straight (as long as no one is pitted there).
At blackhawk, kids aren't allowed to ride anything. period. My son told me he was yelled at for riding his bike.
15MPH in the pits? There are a lot of rules. Yes, I know it's a dangerous environment. I tell my son constantly to be careful, especially in the pit area. But now it's no bikes, anywhere. So, IMHO it's no longer a family environment. Just MHO.
I had to laugh last year when they broadcasted a story about Mig Duhamel and in the video there he is, as a kid at his dad's races, weaving in and out of people on his mini bike.
Insurance representatives have been coming to events at race tracks assessing what his happening. It's an old problem, but the ramifications are that the insurance rates will make racing or track days unaffordable.
It sucks.
As for Mig...well, that was the 70's... 8)
Quote15MPH in the pits? There are a lot of rules. Yes, I know it's a dangerous environment. I tell my son constantly to be careful, especially in the pit area. But now it's no bikes, anywhere. So, IMHO it's no longer a family environment. Just MHO.
I agree Jack. What's wrong with letting them ride out in a safe area? That's kind of the whole reason for bringing them. So they can have fun too.
I also agree about the 15MPH rule. That is not even close to being followed.
I agree!
;)
The problem is supervision and responsibility.
BHF is a private facility and we need to respect their rules as well as those from CCS. BHF rules are that no one without a valid driver's license can operate a motor vehicle there (unless competitor). It's not hard, that's a very simple rule.
When races have to stop so that an ambulance can transport some moron who got hurt or hurt someone else on a pit bike, we ALL suffer.
Dave, please elaborate on exactly what the punishment was for these BHF folks that hit the track. I recall 3 groups of people on the track that night. The 3rd group was the straw that broke the camel's back. No fines, No real punishment.
An "Oh gee, I'm truly sorry" is not acceptable IMHO.
As for Bicycles at BHF? I've never had a problem personally or with my kids. Never been told they couldn't ride them.
My three year old daughter was on her bike (with training wheels) with my wife walking right next to her and someone from the track told my wife my daughter was not allowed to ride a bike.
QuoteDave, please elaborate on exactly what the punishment was for these BHF folks that hit the track.
I won't. That was between those individuals and the track. Some very, very angry people on one side, and they were happy with the outcome.
We need pit bike races after the daily activities. Works for CRA, the crowd enjoyed the racing, no one was hurt and some of fans/family could participate in the action. Not to mention the fact that it was pretty damn funny.
QuoteI won't. That was between those individuals and the track. Some very, very angry people on one side, and they were happy with the outcome.
I'll assume "Very very angry people" = BHF management. And they should be angry.
"happy with the outcome" = punish everyone for the actions of a few.
Imply what you want. The guys that did it won't do it again.
During the weekend at BHF that is mentioned, there were different groups of people out on the track at different times. It wasn't the same people over and over. Cindy caught a couple of people out there and yelled at them. Later on, a different group of people were out there racing around. When asked to come forward the next day, the responsible parties came up and apologized. Not that this makes it any better, but it helped so that they were not punished as severly.
Pit bike races are a blast. We had them during the Wegman weekend at BHF a couple of years!
That's good to know Dave, but I'm still the one walking after 6:00pm instead of enjoying the transportation of my pit bikes...
If the punishment was appropriate, we would still enjoy the privilege of pitbikes like the rule-abiding people that we are. There would have been no need to punish the masses because everyone who even had a THOUGHT of repeating the incident would realize the punishment involved and would fear it.
Put it this way... Should the entire nation be executed because Tookie Williams shot 4 people in cold blood and helped form a gang responsible for thousands of other deaths? No.
Likewise, seeing the punishment handed down, would I sit back and consider repeating his actions? Ummm no.
Crime/Punishment... It's simple really...
And it doesn't have to be all that dramatic. Just get a specific set of rules/fines and stick to them, and make them harsh enough to prevent blatant disregard for safety/courtesy/policy.
Well, I can't give you an answer, Jeff. I usually use Red Wings for my pit bike. I do recall that pit bikes were banned, but then brought back. Since my Red Wings were never banned, I can't give you an answer.
Buy Red Wings.
8)
How about a reverse situation? I was fined $100 for violating NOTHING in the rulebook while other who violated a clearly written rules were ignored repeatedly.
Subsequently, I paid the fine, and it was sent back stating they were revoking my license.
I'm still waiting for Kevin to get to the bottom of this.
I understand Dave... We strayed a bit from my original topic. Please read my edited post and let's go back there...
Do you agree that there needs to be a set of rules in place and a specific punishment for infractions?
Do you believe the current rules/punishments are sufficient?
Adam, I don't know who or what you did, but your situation definitely needs escalation to Kevin.
QuoteAdam, I don't know who or what you did, but your situation definitely needs escalation to Kevin.
I called Kevin the other day on the matter and he had me send him a written 'statement' and he's now waiting for the local org to respond. Meanwhile, time is a ticking to retain my number.
Interestly enough, one of the board members decided to sell an 'I hate Adam Vella' t-shirt signed by LRRS mgmt along. I guess US and state laws don't apply to them either.
QuoteDo you agree that there needs to be a set of rules in place and a specific punishment for infractions?
Do you believe the current rules/punishments are sufficient?
Yes.
No.
So Dave (or anyone for that matter), looking back at my original post, how would you approach this for something "organized" to present to CCS?
QuoteYes.
No.
Just wanted to quote this for posterity. I don't think I've seen an answer like this from Dave before! ;):)
Seriously though Jeff. In the mailer I think it said something about contacting the rules committe if you had any other suggestions. Maybe that's the way to go? I don't know.
QuoteLast year, there was also a "fine" for crossing the blend line which was "donate $25 to the wegman". For me, that seemed absurd! It was taunting people. It was funny...
Ya kow thats something I really also wonder why its violated. Not a hard rule to understand. I understand if someone went out if someone went down in front of them or they got forced out by another bike, but damn. I called in teh same guy for violating the blend line twice when I was working T1 in the SAME RACE. Came out, crossed it. Black flagged, came out again, crossed it. Black flagged again and this time came out cranking a big old fat wheelie and holding it up until he got near T1. I think the race director had something to say with him over that one also. Was a few years ago though.
QuoteSeriously though Jeff. In the mailer I think it said something about contacting the rules committe if you had any other suggestions. Maybe that's the way to go? I don't know.
Absolutely, and I would intend to do just that! I don't spout off here and go no further. However, I do like to get other people's backing input and perspectives. It helps form a very comprehensive recommendation that has a good chance at being implemented.
Simply firing off an email to the rules board with no backing or thorough investigation is a waste of my (and their) time.
QuoteYa kow thats something I really also wonder why its violated. Not a hard rule to understand. I understand if someone went out if someone went down in front of them or they got forced out by another bike, but damn. I called in teh same guy for violating the blend line twice when I was working T1 in the SAME RACE. Came out, crossed it. Black flagged, came out again, crossed it. Black flagged again and this time came out cranking a big old fat wheelie and holding it up until he got near T1. I think the race director had something to say with him over that one also. Was a few years ago though.
Had he been fined, it wouldn't have happened again.
I was fined 2 years ago for a wheelie down pit out road ($50). Guess what I don't do anymore?
There was no arguing to it... I knew it was wrong, I got pinched, I paid the man and now make the CHOICE not to behave that way.
I've been racing since 1999, and have never violated a blend line. It doesn't seem that hard to me. In fact, the blend lines are the FIRST thing I look for when I'm heading out on a track I haven't ridden before.... ???
QuoteInterestly enough, one of the board members decided to sell an 'I hate Adam Vella' t-shirt signed by LRRS mgmt along. I guess US and state laws don't apply to them either.
ROTFLMAO!! Gonna sue another sanctioning body for things that aren't illegal huh? Go get em! :D
QuoteI was fined 2 years ago for a wheelie down pit out road ($50). Guess what I don't do anymore?
LOL... and some people (I won't name names...) set aside $100 on purpose full knowing they're gonna pull a wheelie or two in the next race!
;)
QuoteROTFLMAO!! Gonna sue another sanctioning body for things that aren't illegal huh? Go get em! :D
You missed the "No hatin' on Adam" law?
I got meatballed twice in the same race as an amature. Still got a 3rd in GTO. LOL
Always check your grid position,
Remember that the blend line does go ALL THE WAY down into T1. ;D
Wheelies. Thats the only thing I've seen anyone fined for. :)
Jeff - get a grip ... there's no such thing as BS in CCS ...
shees ...
some people ...
;)
I haven't read the new rules yet, but are they going to make a new flag for those who want to take 2 or 3 laps extra after the race is done LOL!!
I say we make a new flag, it will be black like the meatball flag but with the character on the 'dummies' books. LOL!!!
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.imgspot.com%2Fu%2F06%2F2%2F10%2FDummyflag1136301536.jpg&hash=ca00a4878368a1c83a05e6c412d276334717c25e)
I think it looks like me with no gray hair... 8)
I agree there should be additional rules to apply to after hours activities. But, how specific can you be? I also firmly believe there needs to be better enforcement of the rules that already exist. This is the perfect time to make it clear, before the season begins, that the rules will be enforced and punishment will be levied. Then follow it up with action.
Rules pertaining to after hours activities? Write up what you think should be and submit it to Kevin, see where it goes.
QuoteI haven't read the new rules yet, but are they going to make a new flag for those who want to take 2 or 3 laps extra after the race is done LOL!!
I say we make a new flag, it will be black like the meatball flag but with the character on the 'dummies' books. LOL!!!
I like this one better:
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2Fnewflag.gif&hash=9a0007393a490d803dd59eca57916774f2dd9746)
LOL! I vote for Johnny B for rules official.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2Fnewflag.gif&hash=9a0007393a490d803dd59eca57916774f2dd9746)
Oh yes, I like yours muuuuuch better. Think I'll go out buy some material and sew one up for this season LOL!!
Just to add my thoughts.
Once in practice I crossed the blend line at BHF by say 8 to 12 inches. The guys pointed it out to me very politely. Of course I was contrite but............. I feel that if they had gone as far as barring me from competition that day, no refunds, no b.s. that would have been fair.
Harsh ? , absolutely, but fair nonetheless. Rules are rules and these rules are there for the safety of us all. My actions could have caused others to be hurt or to have their bikes damaged.
In my opinion penalties such as 25$ fines are way too small. We must assume the responsibily to ride in such a manner as to not endanger others unduly, and that's what this type of rule is about. Let's make the " cost " of endangering others or acting in such a manner as to endanger our access to facilities high enough to insure that rules don't get broken again ever. Simply the fines should reflect the notion that if you can't pay the fine then don't break the rule. No whining and no BS
However, there are certain problems that have more direct fixes such as kids riding bikes, and scooters. In this case there could be a specific, safe, out of the way area where they are allowed to ride. If they are outside of this area then their parents need to be reprimanded, held responsible, and fined appropriately like say 100$ 1st offense. If a parent can't control their child then they are placing both the child and others in danger especially at a race event. So heavy fines would be callled for.
We are engaged in a somewhat dangerous past time and I support whole heartedly those actions that lessen the risks involved. If those actions require large fines that's fine by me.
I most definately agree with kids on pit bikes and scooters. That crap is ruining it for everyone else who utilizes these machines to do things like change tires and watch races at other parts of the track between their races.
Quote from: Suzy on January 03, 2006, 08:04:38 PM
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2Fnewflag.gif&hash=9a0007393a490d803dd59eca57916774f2dd9746)
Oh yes, I like yours muuuuuch better. Think I'll go out buy some material and sew one up for this season LOL!!
Yeah, this is a really old thread. After all of these years, I finally completed my Starter's set with that special flag! Flagman.com made it up for me. Any other Starters who want one, Flagman of America has the artwork on file. Ask for the "bunda" flag!
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1234973_10151898574644122_2028708757_n.jpg)
And who was the first recipient?
Quote from: Johnny B on September 12, 2013, 08:56:07 PM
Yeah, this is a really old thread. After all of these years, I finally completed my Starter's set with that special flag! Flagman.com made it up for me. Any other Starters who want one, Flagman of America has the artwork on file. Ask for the "bunda" flag!
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1234973_10151898574644122_2028708757_n.jpg)
A thousand likes for you... :D
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on September 13, 2013, 09:59:45 AM
And who was the first recipient?
Expert #89 Chuck Brighenti (LRRS Head Tech Inspector), for blatant course cutting during the Bob Perkins Memorial Pit Bike Race.
That sucker will be getting a serious workout during the last weekend in October. I will be the Starter for the 24 Hours of LeMons Halloween Hooptiefest. At last May's Loudon Annoying, Scotty Cole threw about 300 black flags over three days, so I think I can add to the fun.